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Wulfen are strong but kinda necessary if you want to have a close combat force instead of yet another gun line, I hated what sixth forced me to do to make wolves work I was completely locked out of my preferred play style.

Being able to take the fight to my enemies instead of sitting back felt great.

But yeah I can see how they irritate some people but it's not as bad as tau and eldar.

Dantes_Baals wrote:

 Runic wrote:
In a truly competitive (or should I say broken) enviroment Wulfen are mediocre-okay at best. Hardly overpowered or even in the high tier of things you see in tourneys.

It sounds like your army was very casual, add in the mistakes you listed and there you go. Wulfen are fine.

Wulfen ate fine because Tau'nar isn't a very convincing argument man.

The context is the game as a whole. If the context isn't the game as a whole, then the argument is pointless. I can claim a Tactical Marine is OP in the context of a Tactical Marine vs. a Guardsman.

Now that we've estabilished the fact the context is the game as a whole, the Wulfen are fine. Compared to things like a decked out wolfstar, the most competitive Tau and Eldar lists and the like.

In Warhammer 40,0000 the game, the unit Wulfen are not overpowered, and not even remotely the strongest unit.

I'll await factual data that proves the opposite, such as Wulfen heavy lists consistently winning large tournaments on a continous basis. The data for the above mentioned, actually competitive tournament lists that have dominated vaurious events you can find easily.

You do not have to consistently be #1 in order to be OP.

Wulfren aren't that bad to me bit that could he due to most of my new army having invuns
Martel please for the love of tzeench stop crying about blood angels. The blowd angel codex can at least make some good fluffy lists some codexes ie nids and Orks dont even have that. What are you going to claim next that SoB and Thousand sons are better than BA

Wulfen are a bit OP but they also come across as being incredibly OP because of how underpowered most footslogging dedicated melee units are. Lots of attacks, high strength with the AP to cut through saves, and the ability to guarantee they do damage (key note here) in melee when they die before they swing. They also have an aura makes other units better which generally means it boosts their movement. Their weakness is that they are foot sloggers but its partly offset by having run and charge so their assault threat range is somewhere between foot sloggers and "mounted" units. They also have fairly lackluster saves, toughness, and are multi wound so volume of fire can chew them up while high strength shots can instant kill them (ignoring the 2nd wound and FNP). Zero real range threat means they are almost always acted upon before they can do any damage which makes them potentially only function to buff nearby units movement and soak shooting (with their middle of the road saves/durability that isn't their ideal role).

Compare them to other similar dedicated melee units like Nobz and they are OP as gak but its very easy to argue that Nobz are some of the most underpowered units in the game (and even their own codex dumps on Nobz due to Meganobz being superior in almost every way). Really though Wulfen are closer to what dedicated footslogging melee units should be than the antiquated units like Terminators and Nobz with their overpriced melee weapons and defensive stats that haven't aged well in the era of mobile, long range, high strength, high RoF, and relatively cheap shooting. Wulfen bring A LOT of damage in melee and have a decent mix of mobility, utility, and durability for their points to justify running them up the field or tossing them out there with drop pods/flyer transports. Their weakness happens to be what the meta is which is LOTS OF DAKKA so any army that can spam bullets can mow them down fairly cost effectively as well as forcing them to waste time chopping through garbage MSU or dinky transports to buy time to continue to murder them with shooting.

TL: DR
"Shoot the Wolfin Wulfen"

I just played against space wolvex using a lucufer armored task force. Surprisingly i was able to win because fast tanks are very effective vs the specific army i was facing.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

 KingCorpus wrote:
They're tough yeah.

You can't beat them at their own game.

Good thing you got str 8+ guns on dark angel units.

Yeah good thing Guard and some other armies have that.

My poor dark eldar though mostly have str 7 max outside of blasters, dark lances and a void lance and one void mine (bomb) if you can hit with it and provided you take that over-costed flyer (void raven). Sadly most dark eldar Instant Death is in melee meaning whatever you send to murder those things only gets one turn before it gets murdered itself. Just gotta pray you spam lance and perhaps poisoned (even if poisoned won't do enough).

--------

All that said thunderwolves aren't too hard to kill but can move rather fast. I still need to get better and it's a rather shame that dark eldar are weaker in power level. I suppose it could be worse. I could be facing a dumber army like tau which can negate most of what i do and just shoot me off the table.

Good thing my Thousand Sons have S8 AP 3 Missile launchers that have half the range, no frag option, and cannot fire them the same turn they fire their guns, for the same price. Yeah, we have no other S8 options in WoM unless you get lucky and roll on your psyker charts.

 Runic wrote:

Dantes_Baals wrote:

 Runic wrote:
In a truly competitive (or should I say broken) enviroment Wulfen are mediocre-okay at best. Hardly overpowered or even in the high tier of things you see in tourneys.

It sounds like your army was very casual, add in the mistakes you listed and there you go. Wulfen are fine.

Wulfen ate fine because Tau'nar isn't a very convincing argument man.

The context is the game as a whole. If the context isn't the game as a whole, then the argument is pointless. I can claim a Tactical Marine is OP in the context of a Tactical Marine vs. a Guardsman.

Now that we've estabilished the fact the context is the game as a whole, the Wulfen are fine. Compared to things like a decked out wolfstar, the most competitive Tau and Eldar lists and the like.

In Warhammer 40,0000 the game, the unit Wulfen are not overpowered, and not even remotely the strongest unit.

I'll await factual data that proves the opposite, such as Wulfen heavy lists consistently winning large tournaments on a continous basis. The data for the above mentioned, actually competitive tournament lists that have dominated vaurious events you can find easily.

But in a complete vacuum a guardsman isn't inferior to a tac marine. When you're comparing two units independent of other units in the game you still need to keep price point in consideration. Equal points of tacs vs equal points of guardsmen will find a relatively even matchup, although it'll lean more towards guard if there's good cover. Keeping in mind that tacs and guardsmen fill the same role of "basic infantry", it's only right that while they have their strengths and weaknesses they should balance out with all of the basic infantry. Sure, some faction's basic infantry is better at certain things (tau having better range, necrons being able to hurt tanks, eldar having bladestorm, guard having more special weapons, tacs having the best armor and statline, nids and orks huge numbers) but all in all none of them outright beats the others at everything. If, for the same price, I had basic infantry that would hands down beat everyone else's troops no matter how I went about taking them on, one of them would be OP, yes? Even if my basic infantry are the least powerful thing in my codex, the unit least likely to outright win me games, is it not still overpowered if it in every way outdoes the same battlefield role of every other faction's basic infantry?

Turn now to wulfen, which I'll classify as "foot melee specialists": they're foot infantry with the sole goal of killing things in close combat. Every codex has some form or another of this, which are the units you should compare them to. Assault terminators, DW knights, genestealers, harlequins, howling banshees, any variety of melee ork from boyz up to meganobz, berserkers, sicarians, there are plenty of them out there. Take an equal value of wulfen (I assume running 2 TH/SS and 3 axes) and throw them against any of these units and you'll find that either A)wulfen will outright beat them before they swing if the wulfen charge or B)wulfen will die to them, but always wipe the squad they're up against. All foot melee units have a different thing they're good at; they're typically either well protected, high initiative, or in numbers so that they can get off their attacks. Wulfen are well protected (2 wounds, 3++, and FNP) AND high initiative. The ones that do strike at a high initiative either have limited (DW smite, kisses, etc.) or randomized (rending) number of AP2 attacks, or they're only AP3. Models that always strike at AP2 are I1, so often die before they get to swing. Wulfen always strike at AP2, even at I5, and if they are I1 they don't have to worry because they still get to swing.

You'll notice first that yes, pretty much everything I named is considered bad in the current meta. Foot melee specialists are not in high demand, as 7th is a game of shooting. Wulfen are not the scariest thing in the dex. TWC and wolfstars are a pain. But that does not negate the fact that wulfen are the absolute best at what they do, that in a casual meta (we have a person that plays orks) they're completely unbalanced against other melee specialists. Perhaps wulfen are not "overall OP", but if you're not running net lists full of scatbikes and wraithknights and invisible deathstars and free stuff formations then yes, wulfen are much more powerful than they should be.

Not saying we should make wulfen weaker, just that we should give all the other foot melee stronger rules to keep up with the current meta.

 kingbobbito wrote:
in a casual meta (we have a person that plays orks) they're completely unbalanced against other melee specialists..

And this is the whole point. A casual "meta" is basically the game being played in an enviroment where a part of what it "offers" for players to use, is not used. What is OP varies in these limited contexts. Somewhere people could play a meta inwhich Devastators with Lascannons are OP. Somewhere else the Wulfen are considered OP because they maimed someones Chaos Mutilators to bits.

Hence one needs to look at the game as a whole, if they want to state something is OP. That is a blanket statement.

If one wants to state something is OP in a casual meta, then state it so.

When it comes to the whole games content and what you can build, Wulfen are not even remotely overpowered. I haven't seen a Wulfen heavy (a list that relies on Wulfen) even in the top 10 in bigger tournaments. If such lists place in the mid tier of tables, then that's all you really need to go with.

But that's all I got to say about it really, if someone wants to believe they're broken then well... I guess we'll have to wait until they face an electrodisplacing invisible wolfstar, Skatach Wraithknights or some Riptidewings accompanied with double Stormsurges and other fun stuff. There is a scale to the power of things in the game, and on that scale Wulfen are far from the top.

The main problem about them is that technically there is no codex "Space Wolves", but codex "Wulfens and Thunderwolf mounts" for they are the only units we have in current state of edition. Oh, almost forgot about 40+ small wolves with DA guy, but this will not be the pure SW army.
So the SW army looks incredibly stupid, lots of fluffy paws and not a single power boot touches the table :(

Well, I consider Wulfen for my Eldar army.
While Eldar has decent shooting, the cc options are rather weak. Wulfen could be the answer, they are fast and hard hitting.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, I consider Wulfen for my Eldar army.
While Eldar has decent shooting, the cc options are rather weak. Wulfen could be the answer, they are fast and hard hitting.

Not fast at all, regular 6 inch infantry movement, but able to charge after the run, so technically 3d6 on charge.
You can take their formation, just 2+ wulfen units with no tax, hail multi detachment system

Silver144 wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, I consider Wulfen for my Eldar army.
While Eldar has decent shooting, the cc options are rather weak. Wulfen could be the answer, they are fast and hard hitting.

Not fast at all, regular 6 inch infantry movement, but able to charge after the run, so technically 3d6 on charge.
You can take their formation, just 2+ wulfen units with no tax, hail multi detachment system

Question: in which book can I find this formation?

 wuestenfux wrote:

Silver144 wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, I consider Wulfen for my Eldar army.
While Eldar has decent shooting, the cc options are rather weak. Wulfen could be the answer, they are fast and hard hitting.

Not fast at all, regular 6 inch infantry movement, but able to charge after the run, so technically 3d6 on charge.
You can take their formation, just 2+ wulfen units with no tax, hail multi detachment system

Question: in which book can I find this formation?

Space Wolves Wulfen edition

Okay.
Curse of the Wulfen. Book 2?

 wuestenfux wrote:
Okay.
Curse of the Wulfen. Book 2?

You need a codex.

Silver144 wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Okay.
Curse of the Wulfen. Book 2?

You need a codex.

Thanks. I'll get it next time.

 wuestenfux wrote:

Silver144 wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Okay.
Curse of the Wulfen. Book 2?

You need a codex.

Thanks. I'll get it next time.

Technically, you don't need a Space Wolves codex. The Curse of the Wulfen book (The book with the rules, at least,) has all the rules you need if you only want to run Wulfen. You'll either need at least 10 Wulfen in order to run them in a formation, or else you'll need to run Unbound, but you can do it.

I remember the Wulfen rules have been in the weekly WD magazine.

Wulfen probelm is not that they hit Hard, i would expect that from 3m tall genetically modified Werewolves.

Its that they can take Shields, com on! was it really necessary to give 3++ save to those to tank all the high Str/AP shots you can throw at them?, no, it was not.

Specially not when they can hit at Str9 Ap2 Init 5...

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
Wulfen probelm is not that they hit Hard, i would expect that from 3m tall genetically modified Werewolves.

Its that they can take Shields, com on! was it really necessary to give 3++ save to those to tank all the high Str/AP shots you can throw at them?, no, it was not.

Specially not when they can hit at Str9 Ap2 Init 5...

No matter how scary a melee unit's melee abilities are they need to get into melee before any of that becomes relevant and while it is hard to stop Space Wolves getting into melee it's not hard to stop them getting into the melee they want - the scariest melee unit in the game can have it's path blocked by a single well placed model, 150 points minimum squad completely blocked by 5 points.
Speaking of relevance Invulnerable saves are pretty much the only relevant save left, Ignores Cover and AP2 are so easy to not just get but spam at range that cover and armour saves simply don't matter anymore.
Lots of old tech shields hanging in the armoury of a chapter that doesn't have anywhere close to as many members as it was set up to equip, nor any successor chapters to share with sounds like it sums up the Space Wolves' armoury pretty good.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:

Specially not when they can hit at Str9 Ap2 Init 5...

Base str is 5, hammer x2 - S10 init1, axe +2 - S7 init1(init5 on charge), claws +1 - S6 init5.

Have no idea where do you get this profile.

Silver144 wrote:

 Slayer le boucher wrote:

Specially not when they can hit at Str9 Ap2 Init 5...

Base str is 5, hammer x2 - S10 init1, axe +2 - S7 init1(init5 on charge), claws +1 - S6 init5.

Have no idea where do you get this profile.

Great Frost Axe + Furious Charge.
Great Frost Axe (Wulfen only) are +3 to strength making them S8 +1 for Furious Charge for S9 and on the charge they hit at I5 then drop back to I1.
To get Furious Charge on the Wulfen you have to take two companies in the Wolf Claw Strike Force detachment or an allied IC who can confer it to them.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

Silver144 wrote:

 Slayer le boucher wrote:

Specially not when they can hit at Str9 Ap2 Init 5...

Base str is 5, hammer x2 - S10 init1, axe +2 - S7 init1(init5 on charge), claws +1 - S6 init5.

Have no idea where do you get this profile.

Great Frost Axe + Furious Charge.
Great Frost Axe (Wulfen only) are +3 to strength making them S8 +1 for Furious Charge for S9 and on the charge they hit at I5 then drop back to I1.
To get Furious Charge on the Wulfen you have to take two companies in the Wolf Claw Strike Force detachment or an allied IC who can confer it to them.

Axes are +3, yeah. My bad. Get used to regular +2 str frost axe.

Indeed, its one of the hardest hitting unit in the game. Fast and deadly.
I'm looking forward to integrate them in my Eldar army as it has no real cc specialists these days.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Indeed, its one of the hardest hitting unit in the game. Fast and deadly.
I'm looking forward to integrate them in my Eldar army as it has no real cc specialists these days.

Wraithknights not pulling their weight?

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Indeed, its one of the hardest hitting unit in the game. Fast and deadly.
I'm looking forward to integrate them in my Eldar army as it has no real cc specialists these days.

Wraithknights not pulling their weight?

Too precious.
A Wraithknight should be able to pick its fight.
E.g., in combined Eldar/GK army I'd shield it by two Dreadknights.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Indeed, its one of the hardest hitting unit in the game. Fast and deadly.
I'm looking forward to integrate them in my Eldar army as it has no real cc specialists these days.

They are not fast at all. Thats why the thunderwolves deathstar is still the king of the board. There are just no effective ways to deliver wulfens in battle. Either droppods or just 6 move, 1d6 run

Silver144 wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Indeed, its one of the hardest hitting unit in the game. Fast and deadly.
I'm looking forward to integrate them in my Eldar army as it has no real cc specialists these days.

They are not fast at all. Thats why the thunderwolves deathstar is still the king of the board. There are just no effective ways to deliver wulfens in battle. Either droppods or just 6 move, 1d6 run

In a combined force with Eldar, it is possible to shield them say with skimmers.
Or they could run on a (refused) flank. I'm optimistic here.

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Indeed, its one of the hardest hitting unit in the game. Fast and deadly.
I'm looking forward to integrate them in my Eldar army as it has no real cc specialists these days.

Wraithknights not pulling their weight?

Too precious.
A Wraithknight should be able to pick its fight.
E.g., in combined Eldar/GK army I'd shield it by two Dreadknights.

Much as I refuse to play allies I'm not going to stop anyone else doing it.
*Champions of Fenris Detachment
1× HQ
- Rune Priest Mlv2 Sanctic Daemonology, roll for Hammerhands or Sanctuary 80pts.
2× Elites
- Wulfen 150 points per unit
- Servitor 10 points per unit

Alternatively
Formation Detachment
- Wulfen Murderpack 300 points per formation.