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 Marmatag wrote:
If you can't tell the difference between fluff, and rules, because it's posted on the website, I don't even know what to say. The Harlequin example really shows willful ignorance, nothing more.

And you can call the powers cheese if you want to, but most tournament formats flat out ban or neuter these powers heavily, so it's not even a big deal.

And yeah, it says "Space Marines." I guess according to this thread, "Hatred: Space Marines" would exclude Grey Knights, Blood Angels, Space Wolves. Of course in the C:SM it does explicitly say that the category 'Space Marines' comprises all units taken from the following codexes: Space Marines, Black Templars, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Grey Knights and Space Wolves.

I mean to click on a different page and accidentally exalted this post. no idea what that means but it wasn't on purpose.

How is the harlequin example willful ignorance? I am genuinely curious. I mean, its obviously RAI, if not RAW because it is official GW material.

And the space marine powers are silly, hardly cheese, but in certain missions completely poorly written. And generally saying "its not cheese because tournaments changed the rules" is a terrible argument for something not being strong/cheesy

A webstore Product Description =/= rules.

All this back and forth, yet no one mentions which unit is a Space Wolf Librarian. Space Wolf Librarians case access AoD powers per the marketing blurb, but to my knowledge there are no Space Wolf Librarians!

SJ

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-NO/Psychic-Powers-Adeptus-Astartes-ENG-2016

"A set of twenty-eight datacards detailing four psychic disciplines usable by any Space Marine Librarian (even a Space Wolves Rune Priest – these are for every Chapter!), each consisting of seven psychic powers:"

 MattKing wrote:

All this back and forth, yet no one mentions which unit is a Space Wolf Librarian. Space Wolf Librarians case access AoD powers per the marketing blurb, but to my knowledge there are no Space Wolf Librarians!

SJ

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-NO/Psychic-Powers-Adeptus-Astartes-ENG-2016

"A set of twenty-eight datacards detailing four psychic disciplines usable by any Space Marine Librarian (even a Space Wolves Rune Priest – these are for every Chapter!), each consisting of seven psychic powers:"

Yes, the advertising blub for the AoD book is different from the advertising from the AoD cards.
Since there is nothing in the book or in the card deck that actually delivers on this claim, the claim has no weight in a rules discussion.

 Stephanius wrote:

 MattKing wrote:

All this back and forth, yet no one mentions which unit is a Space Wolf Librarian. Space Wolf Librarians case access AoD powers per the marketing blurb, but to my knowledge there are no Space Wolf Librarians!

SJ

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-NO/Psychic-Powers-Adeptus-Astartes-ENG-2016

"A set of twenty-eight datacards detailing four psychic disciplines usable by any Space Marine Librarian (even a Space Wolves Rune Priest – these are for every Chapter!), each consisting of seven psychic powers:"

Yes, the advertising blub for the AoD book is different from the advertising from the AoD cards.
Since there is nothing in the book or in the card deck that actually delivers on this claim, the claim has no weight in a rules discussion.

This is not advertising.

This is a product description - they are telling you exactly what the kid includes.

There is a huge difference.

This claim is on the same level as listing the number of parts included in a kit. If you bought a TAC squad equivalent or some such squad, and it didn't come with any guns, but they listed all the gun options in the product description, would you just accept it, because everything on the website is marketing or fluff? "Oh it says it comes with guns, but my kit has no guns. Oh well that was just marketing/fluff."

 Marmatag wrote:

 Stephanius wrote:

 MattKing wrote:

All this back and forth, yet no one mentions which unit is a Space Wolf Librarian. Space Wolf Librarians case access AoD powers per the marketing blurb, but to my knowledge there are no Space Wolf Librarians!

SJ

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-NO/Psychic-Powers-Adeptus-Astartes-ENG-2016

"A set of twenty-eight datacards detailing four psychic disciplines usable by any Space Marine Librarian (even a Space Wolves Rune Priest – these are for every Chapter!), each consisting of seven psychic powers:"

Yes, the advertising blub for the AoD book is different from the advertising from the AoD cards.
Since there is nothing in the book or in the card deck that actually delivers on this claim, the claim has no weight in a rules discussion.

This is not advertising.

This is a product description - they are telling you exactly what the kid includes.

There is a huge difference.

This claim is on the same level as listing the number of parts included in a kit. If you bought a TAC squad equivalent or some such squad, and it didn't come with any guns, but they listed all the gun options in the product description, would you just accept it, because everything on the website is marketing or fluff? "Oh it says it comes with guns, but my kit has no guns. Oh well that was just marketing/fluff."

Your example posits an incomplete product, rather that bad marketing QA.

AOD is complete - it summed up all SM bits floating around and delivers what it was supposed to. There is no indication anywhere that AOD was supposed to do anything for any other codex.

After AOD was finished and off to the print, someone in marketing confused "the Space Marines Faction" with all (loyal) space marines. That resulted in the messed up text for AOD and the cards.

The web shop descriptions are not necessarily very accurate, fluff aside. In fact, the other day I bought a kit that was supposed to be a "highly detailed resin kit" but instead of Forgeworld quality it was Finecast

Ok so AOD is a complete product but the cards aren't?

The Psychic Power cards are a separate product.

I could easily make the case that while the Angels of Death powers are not usable by every librarian, the Psychic Powers detailed on the cards are, as the codex and the cards are two distinct objects.

So yeah. I can't take fulmination from the angels of death codex, but i can take fulmination from the space marines psychic power cards. Which happens to be identical to the AOD book.

The finecast example is a total non sequitur.

I'm beginning to think people have difficulty understanding the fundamental difference between subjective versus objective.

 Marmatag wrote:
This is not advertising.

This is a product description - they are telling you exactly what the kid includes.

There is a huge difference.

This is a chunk of text giving a product description for something they're trying to sell in the hopes of selling more of the product - sounds like a textbook description of marketing.

And, it obviously is not telling you exactly what the "kit" includes, since the marketing hype on the webpage tells you something totally different from what the actual codex it's hyping tells you about its usability with Marine types that have a faction different from the Space Marines Faction.

 Marmatag wrote:
Ok so AOD is a complete product but the cards aren't?

The Psychic Power cards are a separate product.

I could easily make the case that while the Angels of Death powers are not usable by every librarian, the Psychic Powers detailed on the cards are, as the codex and the cards are two distinct objects.

So yeah. I can't take fulmination from the angels of death codex, but i can take fulmination from the space marines psychic power cards. Which happens to be identical to the AOD book.

The finecast example is a total non sequitur.

I'm beginning to think people have difficulty understanding the fundamental difference between subjective versus objective.

The cards are a product, but the cards are not complete in and of themselves. They do not tell you which units within the faction get to use which powers. Going by your statement, since the cards are complete I could have any Eldar pskyer use Runes of Battle, and any Eldar Psyker use Runes of Fate since there are cards for both disciplines for Eldar. And, any Eldar Psyker could use Divination since there's a check mark.

I'm beginning to think people have difficulty understanding the fundamental difference between official rules and hype they only wish were actual rules.

 doctortom wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
This is not advertising.

This is a product description - they are telling you exactly what the kid includes.

There is a huge difference.

This is a chunk of text giving a product description for something they're trying to sell in the hopes of selling more of the product - sounds like a textbook description of marketing.

And, it obviously is not telling you exactly what the "kit" includes, since the marketing hype on the webpage tells you something totally different from what the actual codex it's hyping tells you about its usability with Marine types that have a faction different from the Space Marines Faction.

You're calling it marketing hype because it suits your purposes, yet it very clearly makes a definitive statement about the rules and restrictions. It says librarian & rune priest. Those are very specific models in the context of space marines.

Can you please define marketing, and define rules & restrictions? Not in the context of GW, just in general. I'm curious.

 doctortom wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Ok so AOD is a complete product but the cards aren't?

The Psychic Power cards are a separate product.

I could easily make the case that while the Angels of Death powers are not usable by every librarian, the Psychic Powers detailed on the cards are, as the codex and the cards are two distinct objects.

So yeah. I can't take fulmination from the angels of death codex, but i can take fulmination from the space marines psychic power cards. Which happens to be identical to the AOD book.

The finecast example is a total non sequitur.

I'm beginning to think people have difficulty understanding the fundamental difference between subjective versus objective.

The cards are a product, but the cards are not complete in and of themselves. They do not tell you which units within the faction get to use which powers. Going by your statement, since the cards are complete I could have any Eldar pskyer use Runes of Battle, and any Eldar Psyker use Runes of Fate since there are cards for both disciplines for Eldar. And, any Eldar Psyker could use Divination since there's a check mark.

I'm beginning to think people have difficulty understanding the fundamental difference between official rules and hype they only wish were actual rules.

The cards do tell you this.

The Eldar scenario is fundamentally different and proves nothing.

 Marmatag wrote:
...
The cards do tell you this.

The Eldar scenario is fundamentally different and proves nothing.

The cards tell you nothing that isn't in the book they are copied from, they repeat the powers verbatim.
The quick reference card tells you which FACTIONS have access to each discipline, but not which UNITS have access.
Without a permission for units - which SM units gets in the AOD book - there is no access for any unit.

The Eldar craftworld cards do not include a quick reference card.
The Eldar example applied to the generic power cards and Chaos Deamons is a valid example for the complete failure of equating faction access with access for all units.

The finecast example for the webshop copy reliabiliy is funny, but as you correctly point out, not really needed to illustrate how unreliable the copy is. As we have been over, the description for the AOD book and the cards are both inaccurate regarding the product they describe and inconsistent between themselves, which makes them a poor source of reliable information.

 Marmatag wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
This is not advertising.

This is a product description - they are telling you exactly what the kid includes.

There is a huge difference.

This is a chunk of text giving a product description for something they're trying to sell in the hopes of selling more of the product - sounds like a textbook description of marketing.

And, it obviously is not telling you exactly what the "kit" includes, since the marketing hype on the webpage tells you something totally different from what the actual codex it's hyping tells you about its usability with Marine types that have a faction different from the Space Marines Faction.

You're calling it marketing hype because it suits your purposes, yet it very clearly makes a definitive statement about the rules and restrictions. It says librarian & rune priest. Those are very specific models in the context of space marines.

Can you please define marketing, and define rules & restrictions? Not in the context of GW, just in general. I'm curious.

from dictionary.com

Marketing

noun
1.the act of buying or selling in a market.
2.the total of activities involved in the transfer of goods from the producer or seller to the consumer or buyer, including advertising, shipping, storing, and selling.

The block of text on the webpage is a description of the product used to help get people to purchase the product. This is part of their act to sell the product in the market, meeting definition one. It also meets the requirements of definition 2.


Your turn for to provide information - please provide a quotation from Games Workshop where they have defined their product description page as a valid source for rules. They've told us the other things you've brought up as a smokescreen (Let's Get Started boxes, codexes, FAQs, etc) are valid.

Without the webpage that inaccurately describes the contents of the supplement, there is no other place that defines which psyker units in the non-SM Faction marine types as getting to use the AoD rules. The cards certainly don't, a fact that you continually ignore. Without a valid source giving you permission, you don't have permission to use iwth outside of Space Marines faction.

 doctortom wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Ok so AOD is a complete product but the cards aren't?

The Psychic Power cards are a separate product.

I could easily make the case that while the Angels of Death powers are not usable by every librarian, the Psychic Powers detailed on the cards are, as the codex and the cards are two distinct objects.

So yeah. I can't take fulmination from the angels of death codex, but i can take fulmination from the space marines psychic power cards. Which happens to be identical to the AOD book.

The finecast example is a total non sequitur.

I'm beginning to think people have difficulty understanding the fundamental difference between subjective versus objective.

The cards are a product, but the cards are not complete in and of themselves. They do not tell you which units within the faction get to use which powers. Going by your statement, since the cards are complete I could have any Eldar pskyer use Runes of Battle, and any Eldar Psyker use Runes of Fate since there are cards for both disciplines for Eldar. And, any Eldar Psyker could use Divination since there's a check mark.

I'm beginning to think people have difficulty understanding the fundamental difference between official rules and hype they only wish were actual rules.

The cards do tell you this.

The Eldar scenario is fundamentally different and proves nothing.

It's already been dealt with. This whole conversation has gone in circles. I think i'm just done.

At the end of the day I choose to believe this:

four psychic disciplines usable by any Space Marine Librarian (even a Space Wolves Rune Priest – these are for every Chapter!)

And you don't.

Believe all you want,that doesn't change the objective fact that it's not a valid source of RAW that gave you that statement.

 Marmatag wrote:
It's already been dealt with. This whole conversation has gone in circles. I think i'm just done.

At the end of the day I choose to believe this:

four psychic disciplines usable by any Space Marine Librarian (even a Space Wolves Rune Priest – these are for every Chapter!)

And you don't.

Sorry, webstore product descriptors =/= rules.

In a general sense, yes, but this case is clearly different in the content and the circumstance. Games Workshop is making a clear statement regarding the rules in that description.

Anyway, we can agree to disagree. I'm not going to convince you, and you're not going to convince me.

...which just seems literally insane. There's no way you can actually believe that a line on a webpage is considered rules.

Wait are you the type of person who makes up their own datasheets and then wants to play with them all the time? Bc while that's fun for some, it's obviously house rules.
I suppose your group could house rule that all Libbys and equivalents can generate AoD...but expect to have it not go that way when confronted with any other group, because it's clearly not given rules permission.

Are you just one of those hyper-petty fellows who has to end every debate on an insult? He's clearly tried to end the discussion at several points but always you swoop in to trash talk and try to have the last word. Weak.

 MattKing wrote:
Are you just one of those hyper-petty fellows who has to end every debate on an insult? He's clearly tried to end the discussion at several points but always you swoop in to trash talk and try to have the last word. Weak.

If he wants to leave the discussion, that's fine and all he has to do is stop posting. But that in no way means that others can't continue to contribute to the discussion. So far it seems like it's you and him trying to get in the last word and are the ones complaining because others aren't letting you do so.

 Marmatag wrote:
It's already been dealt with. This whole conversation has gone in circles. I think i'm just done.

At the end of the day I choose to believe this:

four psychic disciplines usable by any Space Marine Librarian (even a Space Wolves Rune Priest – these are for every Chapter!)

And you don't.

Grey Knight Librarians are not Space Marine Librarians, they are Grey Knights that are Librarians. Voldus on the other hand has specific permission.

SJ

Arguing Grey Knight Librarians can use the Angels of Death powers because the webstore says so is like claiming you can do something that is clearly against the rules because they made a mistake and did it in a White Dwarf battle report.

That analogy is definitely worth exalting!

 Mr. Shine wrote:
Arguing Grey Knight Librarians can use the Angels of Death powers because the webstore says so is like claiming you can do something that is clearly against the rules because they made a mistake and did it in a White Dwarf battle report.

If we are following that logic, marmatag, you might be happy to know it's legal to rid dice rolls now bc he does it all the time