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I am still baffled as to what FW were thinking with the Ta'unar heavy rail cannon array. I am paying 5 more points for me to downgrade it's firepower across every single target? Okay... then.

Not to mention cluster shells should just be a weapon like in 7th since the Heavy Rail Cannon is not an award winning star of damage in its own right. Instead the oh so generous 5 point upgrade let's me cause a SINGLE mortal wound per squad if an enemy model is within 3 inches.

Geez... thanks Forgeworld.

Even the heavy rail cannons damage output against titans is worse which it is designed for than the default guns. The only good thing to it's name is that it can wound any model in the game on 2+ but it has one shot so plenty of invul out there ejust waiting to waste your shot lol. For Titan hunting the far cheaper Tigershark does it way better.

The Ta'unar is still a good titan don't get me wrong. Just don't bring it as a titan killer or it will disappoint in all ways.

Can anyone say something about the Tauros & Tauros Venator?
I'm still waiting for my copy :(

 Bichop wrote:
Can anyone say something about the Tauros & Tauros Venator?
I'm still waiting for my copy :(

Sure.

T5 W6 Sv4+, Bs4+ M15" for both

The Tauros Assault Vehicle has a heavy flamer base, and can change it to a Tauros grenade launcher (36" Assault 2D6 S3 AP0 D1 or 36" Assault 2 S6 AP-1 Dd3), can take a hunter-killer missile. Has galvanic motor giving it 5++ if it moved >10" last movement phase. No damage table. 37 pts without weapons (HF is 17, TGL is 20).

The Tauros Venator has a twin multi-laser (i.e. two multi-lasers) and can change it to a twin Lascannon, and can take a hunter-kill missile. Has the same galvanic motor rule but it also does not suffer heavy weapon BS penalty when moving. 46 pts base, weapons are 18 for TML and 40 for TLC.

Basically faster Sentinels that don't take movement penalty, and can have more firepower per point.

What do you guys think about the Macharius tanks? How well do they stand up? I've heard that they're like worse Baneblades, but are they on their own a bad tank? Are they too expensive points-wise?

MrPyro wrote:
What do you guys think about the Macharius tanks? How well do they stand up? I've heard that they're like worse Baneblades, but are they on their own a bad tank? Are they too expensive points-wise?

They are worse Baneblades but they are also a lot cheaper.

Baneblade with 4 sponsons w/ Twin Heavy Flamers 674pts
Stormlord with 4 sponsons w/ Twin Heavy Flamers 638pts
Baneblade with 2 sponsons w/ Twin Heavy Flamers 574pts
Stormlord with 2 sponsons w/ Twin Heavy Flamers 538pts
Shadowsword with no sponsons 444pts
Macharius Vulcan w/ Heavy Flamers 391pts
Macharius Heavy Tank w/ Heavy Flamers 386pts
Macharius Vanquisher w/ Heavy Bolters 383pts

If you don't want to transport anything a Vulcan is better than a Stormlord. A Vanquisher looks quite versatile as it has a dual profile on the main cannon for anti-tank/anti-infantry. The vanilla Macharius looks a bit weak but is the cheapest superheavy tank if you take it with Heavy Bolter sponsons at only 368pts.

The Stormhammer is the one to consider. 512 for 6 heavy flamers, lascannon, twin-battlecannon, stormhammer cannon, and co-ax multilaser. A good amount of firepower and a cheap flamer superheavy. A beautiful, but expensive, model.

I not looking to spend a ton, I was stuck between the vulcan and those multiprofile vanquishers, in the end I went for the vanquishers, I already have a lot of punisher cannons for troop shredding. All I.wanted to know if if you guys thought it's costs justified the firepower given, I was considering going all stubbers for costs and because who doesn't love cheap bullets?

Wait... wouldn't the Death Korps order that makes their lasguns pistol 2 mean they could shoot two shots at full range?

 NivlacSupreme wrote:
Wait... wouldn't the Death Korps order that makes their lasguns pistol 2 mean they could shoot two shots at full range?

Yes, but so would frfsrf.

 NivlacSupreme wrote:
Wait... wouldn't the Death Korps order that makes their lasguns pistol 2 mean they could shoot two shots at full range?

Yep, that's probably why it replaced FRFSRF instead of Fix Bayonets.

Though that means I'm not sure how much use DKoK has for Fix Bayonets. Death Riders aren't infantry, they can't use it, most of the standard infantry will want to use Without Mercy instead so they can basically get 3 attacks instead of 2, and Ogryns aren't DKoK so they can't use their orders either. I guess if they're being boosted by a priest the two orders are equal.

Well, I guess there's the fact their sergeants have two attacks base. So I guess with a priest the sergeant would get more from Fix Bayonets while the rest of the squad breaks even.

 Trickstick wrote:

 NivlacSupreme wrote:
Wait... wouldn't the Death Korps order that makes their lasguns pistol 2 mean they could shoot two shots at full range?

Yes, but so would frfsrf.

It's not as useful but still nice.

And our sergeants can take Lasguns.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually they get them for free.

Did they get rid of the static Medusa cannon? I still see the earthshaker platform but not that...

Nvm! Found it

Question about the rapier laser destroyer, do you increase the 12 damage to an additional 2D6 on a successful 3-5 roll?

I just relalizec that DKoK sergeants can take hot-shot lasguns.

Officers can take hot-shot lasguns.

This is pretty funny.

 Resin Glazed Guardsman wrote:
Did they get rid of the static Medusa cannon? I still see the earthshaker platform but not that...

Nvm! Found it

Question about the rapier laser destroyer, do you increase the 12 damage to an additional 2D6 on a successful 3-5 roll?

What?

It has a Strength of 12, not a damage of 12. The damage is 1D6, which can be increased to 2D6 or 3D6 depending on how you roll.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ross-128 wrote:

 NivlacSupreme wrote:
Wait... wouldn't the Death Korps order that makes their lasguns pistol 2 mean they could shoot two shots at full range?

Yep, that's probably why it replaced FRFSRF instead of Fix Bayonets.

Though that means I'm not sure how much use DKoK has for Fix Bayonets. Death Riders aren't infantry, they can't use it, most of the standard infantry will want to use Without Mercy instead so they can basically get 3 attacks instead of 2, and Ogryns aren't DKoK so they can't use their orders either. I guess if they're being boosted by a priest the two orders are equal.

Well, I guess there's the fact their sergeants have two attacks base. So I guess with a priest the sergeant would get more from Fix Bayonets while the rest of the squad breaks even.

Death Korps orders can be issued to cavalry units. Fix bayonet is actually one of the only order worth issuing to Death Riders (Move, move, move is pretty good when they're not in charge range), even though it cannot affect their hunting lances. It gives them an additional 4 attacks per model, Priests etc. notwithstanding, and Without Mercy doesn't do anything because they don't have lasguns.

On the other hand, Death Riders only have 1 melee weapon (the lance) which cannot be used to fight if you're not charging, and by RAW they do not get a default CCW as they have one CCW (again, the unusable lance), so they cannot fight at all since even the mount's attacks is dependent on the rider attacking.

Can somebody explain me Elisyan's order "Move and Fire!"? English is not my main language, and i am a bit new to Warhammer 40000, so i am a bit confused. An Order itself says: " Any INFANTRY models in the ordered unit count their weapons as being Assault weapons until the end of the turn". Does it mean, that i can pick my elisyan veteran squad (or platoon), creep them into 6 inches away from the enemy, then order them this order and throw 10 krak grenades, since now i count my grenade profile as Assault?

Can somebody explain me Elisyan's order "Move and Fire!"? English is not my main language, and i am a bit new to Warhammer 40000, so i am a bit confused. An Order itself says: " Any INFANTRY models in the ordered unit count their weapons as being Assault weapons until the end of the turn". Does it mean, that i can pick my elisyan veteran squad (or platoon), creep them into 6 inches away from the enemy, then order them this order and throw 10 krak grenades, since now i count my grenade profile as Assault?

Giving it a quick read, yes that is exactly what it says.

Justyn wrote:

Can somebody explain me Elisyan's order "Move and Fire!"? English is not my main language, and i am a bit new to Warhammer 40000, so i am a bit confused. An Order itself says: " Any INFANTRY models in the ordered unit count their weapons as being Assault weapons until the end of the turn". Does it mean, that i can pick my elisyan veteran squad (or platoon), creep them into 6 inches away from the enemy, then order them this order and throw 10 krak grenades, since now i count my grenade profile as Assault?

Giving it a quick read, yes that is exactly what it says.

You totaly sure? I've got a lot of arguments in my local group about this order. Most says that its work not that way, since its not clearly stated that the order changes weapon's profile ( It's just says that you "count as" your weapons as been Assaut, meanwile Krieg's orders clearly says, that you switch your lasguns profile to Pistol 2), but the same time some folks agreed with me, since order passes before you choose your weapon for "activation".

Hope I will get some more responeses, coz depending on that issue's solution i will choose, should build an elisyan or vanilla guard.

EricDominus wrote:

Justyn wrote:

Can somebody explain me Elisyan's order "Move and Fire!"? English is not my main language, and i am a bit new to Warhammer 40000, so i am a bit confused. An Order itself says: " Any INFANTRY models in the ordered unit count their weapons as being Assault weapons until the end of the turn". Does it mean, that i can pick my elisyan veteran squad (or platoon), creep them into 6 inches away from the enemy, then order them this order and throw 10 krak grenades, since now i count my grenade profile as Assault?

Giving it a quick read, yes that is exactly what it says.

You totaly sure? I've got a lot of arguments in my local group about this order. Most says that its work not that way, since its not clearly stated that the order changes weapon's profile ( It's just says that you "count as" your weapons as been Assaut, meanwile Krieg's orders clearly says, that you switch your lasguns profile to Pistol 2), but the same time some folks agreed with me, since order passes before you choose your weapon for "activation".

Hope I will get some more responeses, coz depending on that issue's solution i will choose, should build an elisyan or vanilla guard.

Please, choose Elysians, I'm sure a rule that allows an Elysian Special Weapon Squad to fire 3 Demo Charges, 6 Frag Grenades, and 6 Lasguns with a single shooting activation is very unlikely to be FAQed. Buy, build and paint your entire army on the basis of that rule not changing.

 ross-128 wrote:

 NivlacSupreme wrote:
Wait... wouldn't the Death Korps order that makes their lasguns pistol 2 mean they could shoot two shots at full range?

Yep, that's probably why it replaced FRFSRF instead of Fix Bayonets.

Though that means I'm not sure how much use DKoK has for Fix Bayonets. Death Riders aren't infantry, they can't use it, most of the standard infantry will want to use Without Mercy instead so they can basically get 3 attacks instead of 2, and Ogryns aren't DKoK so they can't use their orders either. I guess if they're being boosted by a priest the two orders are equal.

Well, I guess there's the fact their sergeants have two attacks base. So I guess with a priest the sergeant would get more from Fix Bayonets while the rest of the squad breaks even.

Death Korps orders can be issued to cavalry units. Fix bayonet is actually one of the only order worth issuing to Death Riders (Move, move, move is pretty good when they're not in charge range), even though it cannot affect their hunting lances. It gives them an additional 4 attacks per model, Priests etc. notwithstanding, and Without Mercy doesn't do anything because they don't have lasguns.

On the other hand, Death Riders only have 1 melee weapon (the lance) which cannot be used to fight if you're not charging, and by RAW they do not get a default CCW as they have one CCW (again, the unusable lance), so they cannot fight at all since even the mount's attacks is dependent on the rider attacking.

If this is true that Death Riders don't have a default CCW then Fix Bayonets won't even work on them as there would be no way to use their lances as they would either already be engaged or charged last turn. It seems like your suppose to try and cycle charge with them? IDK would be nice to have an order for them to charge even if they fell back in the movement phase.

Really the only useful order for Death riders seems to be Duty unto Death which lets them make a single attack before they die, only worth it if they charged that turn so they can use the lances. I don't plan on taking any of the Death rider characters as the orders seem really useless for them and Death rider commissars seem useless for 5 man Death rider units. I've thought about one tactic would be to take one Death Rider Command Squad, as this lets you flank with Up to 5 other Death Rider squads. then trying to stack the +1 attack bonus from priests and the Regiment standard on the Death rider squads when they charge from behind. 4 attacks each, hitting on 3+ with Str 5 -2AP D3 damage seems pretty decent.

It seems why bother playing DKOK if you don't plan on using either Death Riders or Engineers to the extreme as the awesome artillery they had is just as usable in a regular IG army. I'm super disappointed with my DKOK Grenadiers, 1 point less then stormtroopers but lose the deep strike and ability to take 4 special weapons, I can't see using the Assault Centunar as it can only carry 5 Grenadiers and they can't even shoot out of it even though its an open topped vehicle, just feel this whole Index was rushed so fast they missed so many things. I guess i'll be playing my DKOK models with IG rules again this edition it seems lol.

I received my Imperial Armour Index today, and I've had a brief look at it.

Am I correct to assume that DKoK can no longer use the Earthshaker carriage, and if I want to use an Earthshaker carriage, I would have to include it as an ally with a generic IG crew?

Same kind of goes for the Hades, it becomes pretty meaningless if I have to purchase it with a generic squad of veterans. It's like they didn't proof-read this at all.

 Zingraff wrote:
I received my Imperial Armour Index today, and I've had a brief look at it.

Am I correct to assume that DKoK can no longer use the Earthshaker carriage, and if I want to use an Earthshaker carriage, I would have to include it as an ally with a generic IG crew?

Same kind of goes for the Hades, it becomes pretty meaningless if I have to purchase it with a generic squad of veterans. It's like they didn't proof-read this at all.

it seems that way, why they thought Earthshaker carriage would be too broken with Cult of Sacrifice makes no sense to me. They may have thought overcharging shotgun deep striking engineers might have been too broken? I have no idea. I'm trying to figure out on Facebook who I can complain too or get some straight answers but everything is so different since I last used Facebook like 7 years ago lol

I would expect the issues are more "we dun goofed" than any intentional balance reasons.

 Gamgee wrote:
I am still baffled as to what FW were thinking with the Ta'unar heavy rail cannon array. I am paying 5 more points for me to downgrade it's firepower across every single target? Okay... then.

GW has a tradition of overestimating single-shot weapons. It definitely needs a boost, though, particularly against its intended target (Tyranid Titans, if memory serves).

Not to mention cluster shells should just be a weapon like in 7th since the Heavy Rail Cannon is not an award winning star of damage in its own right. Instead the oh so generous 5 point upgrade let's me cause a SINGLE mortal wound per squad if an enemy model is within 3 inches.

Geez... thanks Forgeworld.

Huh? I think you might want to look again at the wording for that ability, because you seem to have made two mistaken interpretations.

First, it only applies against enemy models that end a charge move within 3" of it, so not all enemy models within 3", just a subset of them.

Second, and more importantly, the rule lets you roll a dice for EACH enemy model, with each 4+ causing the model's unit to suffer a mortal wound. If 30 gaunts end their charge move within 3" of the Ta'unar, you can expect 15 mortal wounds.

No, Cluster Shells is an extremely potent anti-horde tool (though the horde has to be stupid enough to charge) and reasonably potent against anything non-monster/vehicle that charges.

What's worrying is that Towering Colossus doesn't appear to give the Ta'unar the ability to fire its weapons after Falling Back.

It could arguably be interpreted that the ability to "move over other units" would allow non-Falling Back movement in the Movement Phase (and thus no restriction on the ability to shoot), but IIRC other Titanic models have rules explicitly granting that ability.

Its highly annoying that moving and shooting heavy weapons with the Ta'unar still causes a penalty - hopefully fixed or fixable in the future.

Even the heavy rail cannons damage output against titans is worse which it is designed for than the default guns. The only good thing to it's name is that it can wound any model in the game on 2+ but it has one shot so plenty of invul out there ejust waiting to waste your shot lol.

Technically, the Chaos Warlord Titan has a T of 16, so no 2+ to wound against him.

For Titan hunting the far cheaper Tigershark does it way better.

The Ta'unar is still a good titan don't get me wrong. Just don't bring it as a titan killer or it will disappoint in all ways.

Pretty much. I'm sure a lot of my fellow old-school Tau fluff buffs are singing the Tigershark's Titan-killing praises, particularly as the better option compared to a Titan-sized Battlesuit (because damnit, that's not a Tau thing! Well, it wasn't 7-10 years ago, anyway...), but I do wish the Ta'unar had maintained a bit more of its durability against Titan-specific weaponry in exchange for its comparatively low firepower (It lots its 4++ against shooting and its ability to block unblockable wounds - at the very least, I'd want it to apply to mortal wounds like Titan Void Shields do).

I honestly don't mind if artillery crews and Rapiers don't have access to the same special abilities or even the same stats as the other Krieg troopers. From a background point of view, the line infantry and the artillery crews are going to have very different training, and you might say that's reflected in the new stat lines. Also, this probably makes them cheaper.

The Hades is pretty much broken though.

 Zingraff wrote:
I honestly don't mind if artillery crews and Rapiers don't have access to the same special abilities or even the same stats as the other Krieg troopers. From a background point of view, the line infantry and the artillery crews are going to have very different training, and you might say that's reflected in the new stat lines. Also, this probably makes them cheaper.

The Hades is pretty much broken though.

I don't think basic training on Krieg is very different, but we don't have any sources for artillery vs infantry training. Of course the artillerists will have some training in using their pieces, but the Death Korps doctrine of redudant training (such as everyone being able to use special weapons if the designated user dies) would probably have meant that even the artillerists were competent infantry. This was also shown in previous editions with everyone being the same. The indoctrination and the Cult of Sacrifice would have affected everyone though, so they should have that. Secondly, the Siege Regiments are a mixed regiment with artillery and infantry (and most likely some other support), so they would likely not attached specialised artillery companies or regiments.

Secondly, I want my damn Krieg crew even if it costs 3-4 points more per gun. I play the list and pay for the very expensive models because I like the army itself, and I don't enjoy being artificially limited in what I can grant the DEATH KORPS OF KRIEG keyword, especially when we're talking about units that are more or less ubiquitous to the Krieg doctrine. A one-line rule with If you give Earthshaker [and other units which should have been on the list] the Death Korps of Krieg keyword, all crew gain the Death Korps Guardsman statline and equipment and cost 1 additional points.

 Aenarian wrote:
I don't think basic training on Krieg is very different, but we don't have any sources for artillery vs infantry training. Of course the artillerists will have some training in using their pieces, but the Death Korps doctrine of redudant training (such as everyone being able to use special weapons if the designated user dies) would probably have meant that even the artillerists were competent infantry. This was also shown in previous editions with everyone being the same. The indoctrination and the Cult of Sacrifice would have affected everyone though, so they should have that. Secondly, the Siege Regiments are a mixed regiment with artillery and infantry (and most likely some other support), so they would likely not attached specialised artillery companies or regiments.

Secondly, I want my damn Krieg crew even if it costs 3-4 points more per gun. I play the list and pay for the very expensive models because I like the army itself, and I don't enjoy being artificially limited in what I can grant the DEATH KORPS OF KRIEG keyword, especially when we're talking about units that are more or less ubiquitous to the Krieg doctrine. A one-line rule with If you give Earthshaker [and other units which should have been on the list] the Death Korps of Krieg keyword, all crew gain the Death Korps Guardsman statline and equipment and cost 1 additional points.

You make some good points. As for the DKoK abilities, as far as I can tell the units that are listed in the box on p.55, counts as Krieg units, so a Heavy Mortar crew would have access to the Krieg special abilities, while an Earthshaker crew would not. The only difference then between a Heavy Mortar crewman and a regular infantryman is the 3+ WS the infantryman has (as well as krak grenades). You might interpret the 3+ WS as close quarters combat training the artillerymen haven't received.

The list is clearly mostly based on the Assault Brigade list, which also didn't allow Earthshakers, so maybe this limitation was carried over, and in a future Siege Regiment list they will include the Earthshaker and Medusa carriages, but prohibit Storm Chimeras and Griffons.

Most Playtested Edition Ever™*

*We had to fire all the editors.


From making grenades assault weapons to making a Tau flyer literally incapable of ever firing it's main Macro gun...

 Zingraff wrote:

 Aenarian wrote:
I don't think basic training on Krieg is very different, but we don't have any sources for artillery vs infantry training. Of course the artillerists will have some training in using their pieces, but the Death Korps doctrine of redudant training (such as everyone being able to use special weapons if the designated user dies) would probably have meant that even the artillerists were competent infantry. This was also shown in previous editions with everyone being the same. The indoctrination and the Cult of Sacrifice would have affected everyone though, so they should have that. Secondly, the Siege Regiments are a mixed regiment with artillery and infantry (and most likely some other support), so they would likely not attached specialised artillery companies or regiments.

Secondly, I want my damn Krieg crew even if it costs 3-4 points more per gun. I play the list and pay for the very expensive models because I like the army itself, and I don't enjoy being artificially limited in what I can grant the DEATH KORPS OF KRIEG keyword, especially when we're talking about units that are more or less ubiquitous to the Krieg doctrine. A one-line rule with If you give Earthshaker [and other units which should have been on the list] the Death Korps of Krieg keyword, all crew gain the Death Korps Guardsman statline and equipment and cost 1 additional points.

You make some good points. As for the DKoK abilities, as far as I can tell the units that are listed in the box on p.55, counts as Krieg units, so a Heavy Mortar crew would have access to the Krieg special abilities, while an Earthshaker crew would not. The only difference then between a Heavy Mortar crewman and a regular infantryman is the 3+ WS the infantryman has (as well as krak grenades). You might interpret the 3+ WS as close quarters combat training the artillerymen haven't received.

The list is clearly mostly based on the Assault Brigade list, which also didn't allow Earthshakers, so maybe this limitation was carried over, and in a future Siege Regiment list they will include the Earthshaker and Medusa carriages, but prohibit Storm Chimeras and Griffons.

Yes, I've also noticed that it was an update of the Assault Brigade, minus the Forlorn Hope rule (which might return in an update of IA12). However, that just baffles me more. Why not just add the two Carriage Batteries and be happy with it, since Engineers were troops only if you didn't take a Hades Breaching Drill. About the WS3+, they had WS4 just like everything else in the list and I don't see why not just keep it. In all honesty, ever 4 crewmen with Death Korps statline for a point less (or 2 as they were previously) won't make a difference. They are never allowed to leave their artillery so can hardly be considered OP anyway.

And for the last point, I don't even see why they would bother. I can take them anyway in an Imperium detachment, and they cannot be given orders as they are neither infantry nor cavalry. Previously, this was a consideration but it's just a moot point now. So why not just make a single unified list with everything they've previously had (and I mean everything, including the Lords of War etc.), with everything having the DKoK-rules and an increase in points if necessary? If you're normal AM, you can just claim you are e.g. Cadian 42th Regiment and give everything that keyword, fluffy or not. Having two different kinds of DKoK is just... a waste I think.

Also, while we're at it, did they have to give the Marshals WS3+ instead of WS2+? They all had WS5 in previous editions, which usually seems to translate to WS2+ in 8th, and they should have a better melee statline than the normal Company Commanders.

Anyone got the data regarding the Stormblade and/or Macharius Omega?

How are they this edition?