Dear Imperial Guard players, how much did you spend for nothing ? 8th edtion rant

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**Scott-S6**

How is the voystrayn armour closer to carapace? Its chest armour (mostly chain mail) and shoulder pads. Some are also wearing elbow pads but that's hardly carapace armor.

The shotgun thing is a bit odd. The option was introduced into the regular IG codex, FW layer offered models for it and its somehow stuck.

**Zingraff**

http://images.dakkadakka.com/gallery/2014/8/11/637479_md-Cadians%2C%20Retro.JPG

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-NO/Cadian-Hardened-Veterans-with-Shotguns-Upgrade-Pack

Here you go!

The reason why FW did the veterans with shotguns conversion kit, probably has to do with FW having been set up originally to produce stuff for IG and fill in the gaps. Some of FW's designs were carried over and some were remade into plastic kits, like the Hydra.

**MechaEmperor7000**

SilverAlien wrote:
JohnHwangDD wrote:
morganfreeman wrote:
Does anyone in this thread have a 3rd edition BRB laying around?

I do. I got into 40k shortly at 3rd edition launched, when several armies were still playing out of the BRB.

Yup. Amazingly, the spine isn't even cracked and the pages are still attached! I never laid it flat.

BRB 3E was the best 40k rules + armies - simple and balanced.

Anyhow, getting back to the OP, I've spent what I've spent, so all of my toys are sunk cost, whether I play them or shelve them. Units being shelved isn't anything new.

It's almost too bad that Codices are coming to wreck 8E.

Well, the new codices might actually alleviate the issue the OP has, so that is one pro. The other being the indices for some armies are frightfully boring. Most armies imo, I'm looking forward to expanded options.

To be fair, the 3rd edition codexes weren't all that inspired either in the beginning. The 3rd Ed SM codex is even more stripped down than the index we have now. No FoC shenanigans, Force Commanders and Chaplains were just normal marines with better stats (and fancier starting gear in the case of the Chaplain), and other than ATSKNF, the only real special rules the models had were Infiltrate, Deepstrike and the occasional "reroll this specific thing", and they weren't even available army wide; only on specific units (and drop pods didn't exist). I think it wasn't until the Tyranid Codex that Codexes started getting some really interesting stuff, like Regimental Doctrines, Legion rules, the Mutation table, etc. Granted, we also had Chapter Approved back then to give something else, but the base codex and rules were pretty bland.

However the Regimental rules are what I really miss. They gave the Guard some character, even if they weren't really all that useful competitively (although I did get thrashed by someone using the Sharpshooter doctrine with Carapace Armor.)

**Polonius**

Scott-S6 wrote:
How is the voystrayn armour closer to carapace? Its chest armour (mostly chain mail) and shoulder pads. Some are also wearing elbow pads but that's hardly carapace armor.

I think we might be discussing two different concepts. You are discussing the carapace armor as being essentially a sci-fi suit of armor, non-powered space platemail. I'm using carapace armor for any sort of armor that provides the IG a 4+ save. If you look at Creed, he's barely wearing flak armor, but he has a 4+ save:

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Lord-Castellan-Creed

Kell is wearing something closer to what the kasrkin wear:

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Imperial-Guard-Colour-Sergeant-Kell

Most tellingly, Lord Commissars have a 4+ save (which in the old codex was explicitly called carapace armor). If you look at the model, he's wearing... a breast plate:
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Imperial-Guard-Lord-Commissar

I think that the key feature between flak armor and carapace is the breastplate. Keep in mind that under GW logic, even catachans are wearing flak armor, so we know there's some flexibility.

**ross-128**

Clearly Catachans get their +5 save from their abs.

**MechaEmperor7000**

According to the Warhammer Wikia, Carapace Armor can be anything from just a few sets of chest armor, pads and gloves to full on platemail suits of armor. The only thing that separates Carapace Armor from Flak Armor is:

1.) Carapace Armor is generally thicker and more protective regardless of the piece.
2.) it's more expensive (it's to Flak armor what Artificer Armor is to Power Armor)
3.) It *generally* comes with more pieces than Flak Armor.

Note that the old metal Stormtroopers (not the Kasrkins, the derpy ones) look like they have even less "hard" armor on them, but are wearing carapace armor nonetheless. Then again Catachans go into battle with just their biceps and jeans and that's somehow Flak Armor.

**JohnHwangDD**

You guys are making too much of what is and isn't modeled as "carapace" / Sv 4+.

Sv 5+ Cadians have a an armored breastplate.

The only good Imperial Stormtrooper models ever produced have layered aramid with armored ceramic/Chobham inserts for their Sv 4+.

Totally fething badass.

Conclusion, it's the Rule of Cool that determines whether a model is Sv4+ or Sv5+.

**Scott-S6**

Polonius wrote:
Scott-S6 wrote:
How is the voystrayn armour closer to carapace? Its chest armour (mostly chain mail) and shoulder pads. Some are also wearing elbow pads but that's hardly carapace armor.

I think we might be discussing two different concepts. You are discussing the carapace armor as being essentially a sci-fi suit of armor, non-powered space platemail. I'm using carapace armor for any sort of armor that provides the IG a 4+ save. If you look at Creed, he's barely wearing flak armor, but he has a 4+ save:

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Lord-Castellan-Creed

Kell is wearing something closer to what the kasrkin wear:

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Imperial-Guard-Colour-Sergeant-Kell

Most tellingly, Lord Commissars have a 4+ save (which in the old codex was explicitly called carapace armor). If you look at the model, he's wearing... a breast plate:
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Imperial-Guard-Lord-Commissar

I think that the key feature between flak armor and carapace is the breastplate. Keep in mind that under GW logic, even catachans are wearing flak armor, so we know there's some flexibility.

If you look at all of the troops wearing carapace (scions, karskins) you'll see that they're significantly more armoured. I'm not sure that a few character models are the best exemplars.

Also, most voystroyans appear to be wearing some sort of chain mail, not a breast plate.

If we're going to say that a rigid breast plate is carapace then how is that different to cadian flak armour?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

JohnHwangDD wrote:
You guys are making too much of what is and isn't modeled as "carapace" / Sv 4+.

Sv 5+ Cadians have a an armored breastplate.

The only good Imperial Stormtrooper models ever produced have layered aramid with armored ceramic/Chobham inserts for their Sv 4+.
Totally fething badass.

Conclusion, it's the Rule of Cool that determines whether a model is Sv4+ or Sv5+.

This conversation is much more interesting than OP's nonsense.

**SHUPPET**

This thread = When you don't really understand how the game works at all, but still have to make a thread whining about it anyway due to your loss

techsoldaten wrote:A guy at my FLGS spent about $4k on his Renegades and Heretics army. Beautiful to see, mostly Forgeworld models. Took him almost 2 years to complete. He's played it for maybe 6 months.

The Codex better be good, he's not enjoying 8th at all. All that work for a game where the principle activity is removing his models from the board and mumbling "I have no counter for that."

Sounds like your buddy needs to get gud. If that's how he plays the game, he's blaming it for his own mistakes so I can only laugh.

**Arachnofiend**

SHUPPET wrote:
This thread = When you don't really understand how the game works at all, but still have to make a thread whining about it anyway due to your loss

techsoldaten wrote:A guy at my FLGS spent about $4k on his Renegades and Heretics army. Beautiful to see, mostly Forgeworld models. Took him almost 2 years to complete. He's played it for maybe 6 months.

The Codex better be good, he's not enjoying 8th at all. All that work for a game where the principle activity is removing his models from the board and mumbling "I have no counter for that."

Sounds like your buddy needs to get gud. If that's how he plays the game, he's blaming it for his own mistakes so I can only laugh.

Have you seen the R&H list? It's an embarrassment and I honestly feel sorry for anyone who's put time into painting an army. It's at best a way for other chaos factions to poach some cheap psykers, you simply can't run Renegades as an army unto itself right now.

**MarsNZ**

People using 'dumb down' when describing a game-wide reboot and the associated temporary army lists are [MOD EDIT - Please find a different way to express yourself. - Alpharius].

**Zingraff**

Polonius wrote:
Scott-S6 wrote:
How is the voystrayn armour closer to carapace? Its chest armour (mostly chain mail) and shoulder pads. Some are also wearing elbow pads but that's hardly carapace armor.

I think we might be discussing two different concepts. You are discussing the carapace armor as being essentially a sci-fi suit of armor, non-powered space platemail. I'm using carapace armor for any sort of armor that provides the IG a 4+ save. If you look at Creed, he's barely wearing flak armor, but he has a 4+ save:

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Lord-Castellan-Creed

Kell is wearing something closer to what the kasrkin wear:

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Imperial-Guard-Colour-Sergeant-Kell

Most tellingly, Lord Commissars have a 4+ save (which in the old codex was explicitly called carapace armor). If you look at the model, he's wearing... a breast plate:
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Imperial-Guard-Lord-Commissar

I think that the key feature between flak armor and carapace is the breastplate. Keep in mind that under GW logic, even catachans are wearing flak armor, so we know there's some flexibility.

This. My DKoK Engineers, Grenadiers, officers and cavalrymen only get upper body armour, and that has always been defined as carapace in the books. That's also the case with the 90's guardsmen, the officer models typically wear a metal torso armour, which is described as carapace armour in the rules. Armour has never really been WYSIWYG with IG, and it typically varies from one faction to another how flak and carapace armour are depicted on the models. Cadians are really on the extreme end of the scale as to what constitutes flak armour.

**imperialmint**

I'm a 2nd ed veteran. I have felt that "modern" Imperial Guard armies had lacked the character of what the IG was all about. Seeing IG armies that were small, buffed up troops.. pretty much playing like the "little Kevin" you refer to.
So dry your eyes, form line and take aim!
You're in the Guard son!

**Otto von Bludd**

I actually appreciate the lack of options for now, though I assume some of them will be back in the Codex. The reason is that it allows me to model my vehicles however I want them to look without having to worry about WYSIWYG questions and paying points for upgrades that may not be useful but look good on the vehicle.

**InquisitorLusk**

General Orange wrote:
Veterans lost doctrines, no vehicle options. How much effort did we all lose just to dumb down an army so little Kevin's space marines don't get rofl stomped ? So geedubs can sell a 20 dollar expansion ?

Hours you'll never get back, hours spend using greenstuff to make those camo plate carapace plates on your vets, money wasted by buying those bulldozer blades, hours of searching melta bombs for your sergeants. Money, effort wasted to respect the wysiwyg, for what in the end ?

Was it to much asked to get a +1 on your save having those camo nets, gear, carapace armour ? Having a source for meltabombs ? Was there an ink limit ? A fun limit ?

Does geedubs take a book of physical laws and says "we will base this s**t edition from page 1 to 152 and forget the last 23 chapters"

Does geedubs say at their meeting stuff like "make it good, but not too good, we don't want to have an edition so good we don't need to update it with new armies, new space marines, new rules books, so no one needs to buy the same recycles stuff they already have. Btw great idea Steve you fedora wearing ratling penetrator producing those Primaris, we will just make up an ogryn turd height of fluff, and say that they are totally not normal space marines, and people still gonna buy them to build the exact same army they already so they have the satisfaction of true scale marines. But we gonna say them that they don't need to buy a new army, but like that, it is going to grow in the back of their heads, having true scale marines, not the same height as the gorilla looking cadians while playing, in the end they gonna start collecting and see how great the new models are"

Playing warhammer and dealing with geedubs looks more like an abusive relationship at best between customers and a money hungry company.

I really love the new edition, but they left out WITHOUT ANY REASONS THE OTHER HALF OF THE LOGIC IN THIS GAME. WHAT BANEBLADE GETS -1 TO HIT WHILE MOVING BUT THE RUSS DOESN'T ???!!!

PLATOONS GONE, OH YEAH BECAUSE THE VOICE OF THE PLATOON COMMANDER CAN ONLY BE HEARD SQUAD BY SQUAD NOW HUH ?!

HUMAN REPRESENTATIVES CAN'T STICK THEY GOD DAMN HEAD OUT THE RAMP OF A CHIMERA ?! DID THE MECHANICUS FINALLY ODed ON LIGHTER FLUIDS ??

geedubs, hope you goin bankrupt

garage hammer and house rules all the way !

Please tell me how a top 3 across the board sucks. you know what your problem is? You're a crybaby. Pure and simple. My Death Korps are a viable standalone army for the first time since the models hit the shelves. Veterans were never meant to be the bulk of your force, they're veterans. Chimeras were never meant to be spammed, Nothing was, save for two point conscripts, because fluffy. OH GOD, 8TH EDITIONS ISNT THE REVILED 7TH, WHY CAN'T I HAVE MY CAKE AND EAT IT TOO, I JUST WANT TO HAVE /MY/ LIST BE TOP 2, NOTHING SHOULD CHANGE ABOUT WHAT I DO, GW NEEDS TO REVOLVE THEIR EDITIONS AROUND ME! grow up. grow the absolute hell up.

**dsteingass**

This is why no one uses Dakka anymore and Dakka users have the worst reputation on the internet.

**The_Peacemaker**

Nothing made you buy the compendiums. In fact they were free to look at in store before purchase.

And Astra Militarism codex is set for release quite quickly.

Not sure why the OP is complaining. Quite literally the things GW has done in the past that was worth complaining about, they don't do anymore. The books aren't expensive, the rules are decently balanced, and there are regular updates, the models have lots of different price points and deals, they also have community feedback.

dsteingass wrote:
This is why no one uses Dakka anymore and Dakka users have the worst reputation on the internet.

Ya, I just joined recently because I haven't played 40k in years. Dakka dakka just seems like another whineseer..
Looks like I'll be finding another forum soon. ....but perhaps 40k just attracts more of these types.

**teknoskan**

Considering you neither played Squats (40k) or Brettonia (WHF) I don't see what all the fuss is about...

The Codex isn't out yet, which GW has explained will be the official rules for your army which means indexes are moot once your Codex drops.

Greenstuffing... WYSIWYG... that's a personal choice. Your models only represent what your units look like. You could play with just chess peices and cardboard cut outs and most casual players wouldn't care. The fact you're whining about how much time and effort you put into a hobby and GW took it away just shows you have no idea what a hobby actually is. A hobby, for all intents and purposes, is a time, effort, and money sink. You enjoyed it while you had it, time to move on. God forbid 40k stops being a thing, then we'll have "GW made my models worthless by ending 40k!!" threads out the wazoo.

**SlaveToDorkness**

dsteingass wrote:
This is why no one uses Dakka anymore and Dakka users have the worst reputation on the internet.

I don't really see how any forum could respond to the idiocy that was the OP with much less vitriol. Hell, a fair amount of users are trying to help and explain the intricacies the OP has missed about 8th ed.

Judge us by the OT or fluff sections if you must, D, but this thread practically BEGS for scorn.

**dsteingass**

Dakka was built on Gigabytes of vitriol and bitching about GW, You can make your point about rules without being a complete and total douche. Better yet, just scroll on past things that you dont like, like adults do.

But since I've obviously not learned my lesson to stay in P&M,
"Chimeras aren't meant to be spammed" yes, they are and have been since 3rd edition, if you want your squad to move anywhere. Space Marines are not meant to outnumber guard, yet they do, in product, releases, re-releases, re-issues, re-re-re special editions, Starter sets, players, and the Black LIbrary novels so your fluff argument is moot.

**NH Gunsmith**

General Orange wrote:

Gw making balanced game ? Good joke. So we can't point out flaws line, uhhh, oh my favorite, weapons angles gone ? Do we have to imagine that the leman russ tokyo drifted a 360 turn so he can shoot behind ?

The Geneseed of the lesser known Primarch Paul Walker is in all of the drivers for my Blood Angels' vehicles. Sanguinius and Paul used to race bikes and speeders together, Paul had the records of his Legion expunged and destroyed so that they could drive together for eternity through their now shared Chapter...