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now with new FAQS will be not so easy play 5-6 flyers and in future GW could nerf them more if needed so good luck who bought 5+ SR

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

gungo wrote:
To be fair we will still likely see 2-3 stormraven lists fairly common and counters are still needed.

Isn't that kind of okay though? Stormravens aren't broken in smaller numbers. It is when five of them are maneuvering around that they get out of hand.

People might actually need to take some anti-air support.

They are still tough to take down for thier cost and will be common enough still
Also I still fully expect 4x ravenspam lists to do quite well especially with a near unkillable character behind them. Place guilliman or Celestine and retinue behind them and they are immune to shooting since you can not target a character of his unit and they are good assault units that are extreme hard to kill regardless. No matter what you choose your still wasting a lot of shots. So the point of this thread still has merit even if you see less ravenspam or reduced numbers.

gungo wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

gungo wrote:
To be fair we will still likely see 2-3 stormraven lists fairly common and counters are still needed.

Isn't that kind of okay though? Stormravens aren't broken in smaller numbers. It is when five of them are maneuvering around that they get out of hand.

People might actually need to take some anti-air support.

They are still tough to take down for thier cost and will be common enough still
Also I still fully expect 4x ravenspam lists to do quite well especially with a near unkillable character behind them. Place guilliman or Celestine and retinue behind them and they are immune to shooting since you can not target a character of his unit and they are good assault units that are extreme hard to kill regardless. No matter what you choose your still wasting a lot of shots. So the point of this thread still has merit even if you see less ravenspam or reduced numbers.

It is a very good start and the fact GW has done something so quickly is also a good sign. I guess we will now have to wait and see Tournament results once TO take these news FAQs into account. You are right though in that the firepower has not changed, however not being scoring units will mean you have to invest points previously spent on that 4th or 5th Storm Raven into something else.

we can expect GW nerf them more if needed... at least this is a good sign and maybe it can sends some strong signals to wild spammers, buy ur expensive models then a day ur costly list will crumble in pieces.... evil grin...

gungo wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

gungo wrote:
To be fair we will still likely see 2-3 stormraven lists fairly common and counters are still needed.

Isn't that kind of okay though? Stormravens aren't broken in smaller numbers. It is when five of them are maneuvering around that they get out of hand.

People might actually need to take some anti-air support.

They are still tough to take down for thier cost and will be common enough still
Also I still fully expect 4x ravenspam lists to do quite well especially with a near unkillable character behind them. Place guilliman or Celestine and retinue behind them and they are immune to shooting since you can not target a character of his unit and they are good assault units that are extreme hard to kill regardless. No matter what you choose your still wasting a lot of shots. So the point of this thread still has merit even if you see less ravenspam or reduced numbers.

They are tough, but dedicated anti-air takes them down fairly quick. Now that said anti-air isn't worthless against ground targets, it isn't like taking them is a waste of points anymore.

Thank you GW. Nerf those cheesy power weenies.

thisisnotpancho wrote:

Ecdain wrote:
Idk about other armies but i've beaten Raven spam(mind you he runs 4 not 5 but still counts I think) twice using my tzeentch daemons. Aetaos'rau'keres killed two in one turn the last game. He has beaten my list to be fair. The match pretty much comes down to who goes first and how well I can make 3++'s. Overall I feel good about the match up though.

Another note is E. Flamers aren't a counter but they can help chip in fairly easily with their mini lascannnons.

Read first post again and realize OP doesn't play daemons xD my bad for being unhelpful.

Whats your list and how has Aetaos done againt stormravens?

Aetaos'rau'keres
Changeling
4 x Tzheralds on discs w/ staff
2 x Tzheralds on foot w/ staff

2 x giant chaos spawn(marked tzeentch)

8 x units of horrors (1 blue + 9 brimstone)

1714/2000 leaving 284 reinforcement points

I started aetaos'rau'keres back to be in range it only two of he Ravens, of which he took 7 wounds(through changeling-1 to hit aura and his 3++ save) along with killing 3 full units of brimstones and heavily hurting another (again praise the changeling aura).

My turn I moved 2 heralds to be close to one raven that came close(the rest were already in range) and aetaos'rau'keres move into assault range of the other(he has 20" movement), used heralds that didn't move to ritual in 3 E flamers. shot aetaos' gun at one of he further away Ravens (assault 2d6 s9 ap-4 damage 3 with a 2+ bs), got 10 shots, 6 got through for 18 wounds to kill one. Heralds and flamers got there target at 3 wounds left. Aetaos charged raven he moved towards and hit 5/6 times with his 2+ ws, wounded 4 times for s16 ap-4 damage 6(3 v anything not a vehicle, monster, or building) and aetaos killed his second raven that turn

The next turn I killed the other 2 and he conceded.

Not every game goes that well for me but I feel my chances are pretty decent.

Any questions about the list feel free to ask. I'm quite proud of it (even though the spawn do.nothing in this match up xD)

Also yes I he FAQ makes the list much easier to deal with now xD

 mrhappyface wrote:

Chrysen wrote:
There is nothing wrong or imbalanced about the storm raven. There is everything wrong with the flier formations. Limited to 2 fliers total, its fine. Beyond that it just gets stupid. The flyer formations need more limits

I don't agree with that for two reasons:
1. No other flyer being spammed via the flyer detachment has been a problem.
2. Even if you put restrictions on the flyer detachment, people can still spam Stormravens via the auxilery detachment.

The problem is the flyer not the detachment.

Storm ravens ravens are the best fliers, but if you hypothetically nerfed only the storm raven, then you'd have hemlock wraith fighter spam instead

I also agree about the flyers detachment being the issue. If you face a list with 1-2 stormravens you won't have problems as you may face a tough list but not something invincible. 4-5 of them can be impossibile to defeat for several armies.

Like in 7th edition when riptides were hated, it was actually the formation and the possibility of having 3-5 big robots that made them overpowered, the single model was ok. Strong but ok. Same for the current stormravens, they're are very good but units like those ones are not supposed to be spammed. 3 dark eldar flyers are nasty as well for example, not effective like stormravens but still pretty unfair to play against.

I still think that GW should allow only 1 flyer per 1000 points and get rid of that silly detachment. In games under 3000 points at least.

So we normally play 2000 points so you have a reference point. At a recent tournament someone brought the all flyer list with knight back up and conscripts to hold objectives. As mechanicum I took the following (dumbed down to fit in dakka):
Belisarious (for this event delicious rerolls)
2x data smiths
2x castellans with fist and combuster
2x castellans with fist and combuster
2x castellans with 3x blasters
2x castellans with 3x blasters
2x onagers with neutron lasers
Knight with thermal cannon


Ialmost tables him in the tournament. Now a big thing is I won the roll off to go first (ITC rules where person who finished dropping gets +1 to roll to go first) and the onagers by themselves managed to down a plane in the first turn (terrain was LOS blocking so no looking through windows unless your in the terrain so I could only see 1). He did do some
Fire to the castellans but with aegis protocol up and have a 4+ invul (with 5-6+ bouncing back mortal wounds) and shroudpsalm his shooting was somewhat ineffectual. Now that he was in range of my double shooting phosphor blasters and combusters - I just rolled them up with dakka while the knight ran interference with the other knight.

I think if you have something that can wound them on a 5+ with many shots and a rend you can negate them. Heavy bolters (my friend has those rolling quad bolter squads) will shred them with prescience.

Now if your not liking the spam to beat spam method yeah that a stupid thing about this edition but until they fix it meh nothing we could do

They are exceptionally strong for the points - that is the cause of the problem.

That is just exacerbated because now it is easier to take a bunch of them.

People don't spam bad or balanced units usually - otherwise we not call it spam.

The flyer is amazing for the points - hence maximizing the benefit of that capability. Can you deal with one or maybe two? that does not change the fact they are amazing.

Some units need tuning - hence, why we see stormraven spam being a thing, and not doom scythe spam.

Storm ravens ravens are the best fliers, but if you hypothetically nerfed only the storm raven, then you'd have hemlock wraith fighter spam instead

Agreed - then that is a sign they need to adjust those as well. note: I did not say "nerf into oblivion" (which happened to the riptide) - adjust.

Kudos to GW for addressing it - but maybe, just maybe they should have looked at WHY people were choosing those specific units
(I play marines, and have to admit the new rules have made me consider building extra flyers....they are indeed amazing).

I think it is a extremely agile fix by GW, to the rules of deployment and instant death.

Yes those units are strong but they can now cost you the game and give the opponent a viable alternate win condition.

Yes of course a player may (and is now forced to) field a hard resilient unit, its all relative as points spent on flyers isn't points spent on board staying power.

Very agile indeed. Well done GW

Ecdain wrote:

thisisnotpancho wrote:

Ecdain wrote:
Idk about other armies but i've beaten Raven spam(mind you he runs 4 not 5 but still counts I think) twice using my tzeentch daemons. Aetaos'rau'keres killed two in one turn the last game. He has beaten my list to be fair. The match pretty much comes down to who goes first and how well I can make 3++'s. Overall I feel good about the match up though.

Another note is E. Flamers aren't a counter but they can help chip in fairly easily with their mini lascannnons.

Read first post again and realize OP doesn't play daemons xD my bad for being unhelpful.

Whats your list and how has Aetaos done againt stormravens?

Aetaos'rau'keres
Changeling
4 x Tzheralds on discs w/ staff
2 x Tzheralds on foot w/ staff

2 x giant chaos spawn(marked tzeentch)

8 x units of horrors (1 blue + 9 brimstone)

1714/2000 leaving 284 reinforcement points

I started aetaos'rau'keres back to be in range it only two of he Ravens, of which he took 7 wounds(through changeling-1 to hit aura and his 3++ save) along with killing 3 full units of brimstones and heavily hurting another (again praise the changeling aura).

My turn I moved 2 heralds to be close to one raven that came close(the rest were already in range) and aetaos'rau'keres move into assault range of the other(he has 20" movement), used heralds that didn't move to ritual in 3 E flamers. shot aetaos' gun at one of he further away Ravens (assault 2d6 s9 ap-4 damage 3 with a 2+ bs), got 10 shots, 6 got through for 18 wounds to kill one. Heralds and flamers got there target at 3 wounds left. Aetaos charged raven he moved towards and hit 5/6 times with his 2+ ws, wounded 4 times for s16 ap-4 damage 6(3 v anything not a vehicle, monster, or building) and aetaos killed his second raven that turn

The next turn I killed the other 2 and he conceded.

Not every game goes that well for me but I feel my chances are pretty decent.

Any questions about the list feel free to ask. I'm quite proud of it (even though the spawn do.nothing in this match up xD)

Also yes I he FAQ makes the list much easier to deal with now xD

Beautiful.

Unfortunately, Aetaos is literally the only above average answer Chaos has to storm raven heavy armies - which I believe will still stick around. The next best things would be DPs, but storm ravens are too fast and can easily out-maneuver DPs and single them out. But as far as Aetaos goes, he will single handedly take down an entire army of storm ravens by himself. That coupled with him being able to one shot a knight reliably and being impossible to kill, is making him an auto-include in almost every list I make.

Why the summon points? What do you end up summoning? How does that go in acutal games?

thisisnotpancho wrote:

Ecdain wrote:

thisisnotpancho wrote:

Ecdain wrote:
Idk about other armies but i've beaten Raven spam(mind you he runs 4 not 5 but still counts I think) twice using my tzeentch daemons. Aetaos'rau'keres killed two in one turn the last game. He has beaten my list to be fair. The match pretty much comes down to who goes first and how well I can make 3++'s. Overall I feel good about the match up though.

Another note is E. Flamers aren't a counter but they can help chip in fairly easily with their mini lascannnons.

Read first post again and realize OP doesn't play daemons xD my bad for being unhelpful.

Whats your list and how has Aetaos done againt stormravens?

Aetaos'rau'keres
Changeling
4 x Tzheralds on discs w/ staff
2 x Tzheralds on foot w/ staff

2 x giant chaos spawn(marked tzeentch)

8 x units of horrors (1 blue + 9 brimstone)

1714/2000 leaving 284 reinforcement points

I started aetaos'rau'keres back to be in range it only two of he Ravens, of which he took 7 wounds(through changeling-1 to hit aura and his 3++ save) along with killing 3 full units of brimstones and heavily hurting another (again praise the changeling aura).

My turn I moved 2 heralds to be close to one raven that came close(the rest were already in range) and aetaos'rau'keres move into assault range of the other(he has 20" movement), used heralds that didn't move to ritual in 3 E flamers. shot aetaos' gun at one of he further away Ravens (assault 2d6 s9 ap-4 damage 3 with a 2+ bs), got 10 shots, 6 got through for 18 wounds to kill one. Heralds and flamers got there target at 3 wounds left. Aetaos charged raven he moved towards and hit 5/6 times with his 2+ ws, wounded 4 times for s16 ap-4 damage 6(3 v anything not a vehicle, monster, or building) and aetaos killed his second raven that turn

The next turn I killed the other 2 and he conceded.

Not every game goes that well for me but I feel my chances are pretty decent.

Any questions about the list feel free to ask. I'm quite proud of it (even though the spawn do.nothing in this match up xD)

Also yes I he FAQ makes the list much easier to deal with now xD

Beautiful.

Unfortunately, Aetaos is literally the only above average answer Chaos has to storm raven heavy armies - which I believe will still stick around. The next best things would be DPs, but storm ravens are too fast and can easily out-maneuver DPs and single them out. But as far as Aetaos goes, he will single handedly take down an entire army of storm ravens by himself. That coupled with him being able to one shot a knight reliably and being impossible to kill, is making him an auto-include in almost every list I make.

Why the summon points? What do you end up summoning? How does that go in acutal games?

I actually get that question a lot and the simple answer is it wins me games.

The longer winded version is that I play literally every race at my local store(well over 20 regular players and no small amount of waac among them, myself included of course) and I need to deal with everything. With my army I nearly always go second so I must be careful with having random units available to shoot(such as flamers), the seemingly best answer here is run E. Flamers. They are characters so they hide, have massive mobility, and have either flamers or mini lascannnons to deal with either horde/elite. But I dislike that they get -1 to hit for one of those weapons(which happens to be a fairly limited 18" range) when they move(ritual them in 12" from summoner for basically a move without the -1 to hit when they come in). And then there are times you just wish you had that one perfect unit for the job(more heralds, flamers, E. Flamers, etc.).

Now what that 284 actually looks like is a LOT of options.
If I need anti horde or gauranteed hits I can summon ten flamers
If I need anti elites/vehicles 4 E. Flamers are great
If I need more pysker bubble I get three heralds and another squad of horrors (17 of them)

These were just the initial plan, than tonight an interesting situation came up where his turn one his snipers got changeling(very sad). I than summoned another changeling (we couldn't find anywhere that didn't let me, you can only have one in your list but reinforcement aren't part of your listed... List.. xD), two E flamers and squad of 20 brimstones.

TL;DR
E. Flamers would be easier yes, but there are situations that require more niche or redundant units and I like to be prepared.

So far this exact version of the list is 11/12 for games so I'm pretty happy with the option. It's made the difference in a fair number of matches being able to bring in the right units.


P.S. if you're interested my buddy's list tonight was 2 storm ravens, 10 snipers w/telion beside them, 2 tac squads with missile launchers, gully +3 twin autocannon razorbacks, and 2 culexus(he brought them to spite me xD)