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2017/10/26 06:42:24
Subject: Genestealer Cult 8th Edition Tactics - The day of Ascension draws near.
So I was thinking of adding some cultists to my turanid army.
I have acces to: 2 magus, 1 primus, 1 patriarch, a group of genstealer and 1 chimera. Any thoughts on what I should take?
Magi are great way to deny psychic powers and cast smite. Patriarch with group of genestealers can cast on them Power from beyond to give them the needed extra attacks - genestealers in group of 10+ with power from beyond will kill anything, not to mention Patriarch being good.
You could bring them in a Supreme Command detachment as it has place for 3-5 HQ and 0-1 Elites. Magi are very cheap, Patriarch costs more than two Magi unfortunately and squad of 10 Genestealers is quite affordable for the power they bring.
2017/10/26 09:21:19
Subject: Genestealer Cult 8th Edition Tactics - The day of Ascension draws near.
For people trying to track down multiple magi for cheap, I find the Wyrdvane Psykers fit the bill pretty well, and for dirt cheap. Just got to cult them up a bit with cult symbols
2017/10/26 09:40:28
Subject: Genestealer Cult 8th Edition Tactics - The day of Ascension draws near.
C4790M wrote: For people trying to track down multiple magi for cheap, I find the Wyrdvane Psykers fit the bill pretty well, and for dirt cheap. Just got to cult them up a bit with cult symbols
C4790M wrote: For people trying to track down multiple magi for cheap, I find the Wyrdvane Psykers fit the bill pretty well, and for dirt cheap. Just got to cult them up a bit with cult symbols
This is actually really good, haven't checked the IG line, thank you.
2017/10/26 13:31:54
Subject: Genestealer Cult 8th Edition Tactics - The day of Ascension draws near.
But those guys look so tired and pathetic! Your Magus is your powerful HQ guy...don't you think he should look at least a little epic?
To be fair though...with the level of epic-ness on display via every other faction's HQ having a tired, "oh gak, not again" sort of leader might be pretty funny. Epically non-epic.
2017/10/26 13:51:22
Subject: Genestealer Cult 8th Edition Tactics - The day of Ascension draws near.
Caspian89 wrote: But those guys look so tired and pathetic! Your Magus is your powerful HQ guy...don't you think he should look at least a little epic?
To be fair though...with the level of epic-ness on display via every other faction's HQ having a tired, "oh gak, not again" sort of leader might be pretty funny. Epically non-epic.
Yeah, to be fair it's kind of silly. You have countless minions at your disposal, minions that would do everything in your place even die instead of you but some weird outer realm magic called "detachment requirement" calls you to come forth onto the battlefield where you could die. No wonder he is tired and with no hope
2017/10/26 14:17:44
Subject: Genestealer Cult 8th Edition Tactics - The day of Ascension draws near.
So I've been thinking lately about my Magus Smite Battery and have to say even though I'm pleased by their performance it kinda feels like they could use a change. 5 Magus is maybe too much. I've never seen anyone fielding more than 3 Magi at once, maybe that's because they are afraid to be called cheesy or they don't have enough models but maybe there is something more to it. 3 Magi can get every power from the Broodmind discipline and have Smite in case they need something to die. Is it just me or more than 3 Magi feels somewhat redundant?
What do you think? What is the magic number of Magi in one army?
2017/10/26 15:57:10
Subject: Genestealer Cult 8th Edition Tactics - The day of Ascension draws near.
This is the list I'm looking at building. I'm mainly playing casually but that doesn't mean that winning isn't an important goal to keep in mind. Perhaps the generous and more experienced minds than mine on the forum will care to tell me what you think before I spend more money.
2000 Points
4 Detachments (which I realize is not legal for tournaments) and 9 Command Points
AM Spearhead Detachment HQ -Tank Commander, Executioner Cannon, hull mounted Heavy Bolter
Heavy Support - Basilisk
- Basilisk
-Sentinel Powerlifter
I have no idea about this list...it's unlike other lists I've seen. I presume I will always go second with this list but I'm hoping my deployment can be quite sneaky given I get to deploy all the Ratlings, the 2x Scout Sentinels and the Sentinel Powerlifter after all other models have been set-up AND the Sentinels all get a Scout move.
All the GSC Infantry slots can be in reserve as well as the Hades Breaching Drill if required.
At least one Neophyte Squad tries to protect the Basilisks, which are there to provide needed long-range firepower.
The Ratlings are split up to help avoid losses in the morale phase given their low leadership.
I think it's a fun all round list that'll be quite unique and fun to play with and against.
I think I'm weak on long-range fire power and probably will suffer against Flyers. I may have also diluted my strengths too much trying to do too many things in one list.
Any suggestions are helpful.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/10/26 19:53:29
2017/10/26 20:02:05
Subject: Re:Genestealer Cult 8th Edition Tactics - The day of Ascension draws near.
Caspian89 wrote: This is the list I'm looking at building. I'm mainly playing casually but that doesn't mean that winning isn't an important goal to keep in mind. Perhaps the generous and more experienced minds than mine on the forum will care to tell me what you think before I spend more money.
2000 Points
4 Detachments (which I realize is not legal for tournaments) and 9 Command Points
AM Spearhead Detachment HQ -Tank Commander, Executioner Cannon, hull mounted Heavy Bolter
Heavy Support - Basilisk
- Basilisk
-Sentinel Powerlifter
I have no idea about this list...it's unlike other lists I've seen. I presume I will always go second with this list but I'm hoping my deployment can be quite sneaky given I get to deploy all the Ratlings, the 2x Scout Sentinels and the Sentinel Powerlifter after all other models have been set-up AND the Sentinels all get a Scout move.
All the GSC Infantry slots can be in reserve as well as the Hades Breaching Drill if required.
At least one Neophyte Squad tries to protect the Basilisks, which are there to provide needed long-range firepower.
The Ratlings are split up to help avoid losses in the morale phase given their low leadership.
I think it's a fun all round list that'll be quite unique and fun to play with and against.
I think I'm weak on long-range fire power and probably will suffer against Flyers. I may have also diluted my strengths too much trying to do too many things in one list.
Any suggestions are helpful.
I would take a max squad of genestealers. You're going to lose a few to overwatch even with a perfect ambush.
I play:
40K: Daemons, Tau
AoS: Blades of Khorne, Disciples of Tzeentch
Warmachine: Convergence of Cyriss
Infinity: Haqqislam, Tohaa
Malifaux: Bayou
Star Wars Legion: Republic & Separatists
MESBG: Far Harad, Misty Mountains
2017/10/26 21:47:32
Subject: Genestealer Cult 8th Edition Tactics - The day of Ascension draws near.
Caspian89 wrote: But those guys look so tired and pathetic! Your Magus is your powerful HQ guy...don't you think he should look at least a little epic?
To be fair though...with the level of epic-ness on display via every other faction's HQ having a tired, "oh gak, not again" sort of leader might be pretty funny. Epically non-epic.
I have two of the deathwatch ones and three of the wyrdvanes, in my mind the three wyrdvanes are either apprentices or they were imperial psykers psychically subdued into fighting for the cult, getting their power amplified by the hive mind to accomplish their task.
On the tabletop, five magi is AMAZING. I usually put them in ambush so I can observe the enemies deployments before having to commit to the board. Generally they don’t care where they pop up from ambush either - all they’re doing is popping skulls with smite. Don’t forget to conga-line your wounded at the front so the enemy has to waste firepower on weakened targets. Also, don’t overlook them in melee - they get 3 S5 AP-1 D3 damage attacks hitting on 3+, they will put a couple of wounds on things. Being able to get a Mass Hypnosis or a Mind Control off almost wherever you want is stellar. I usually run the magi as an extra in Tyranid lists though so Might from Beyond gets limited use.
2017/10/27 06:50:04
Subject: Re:Genestealer Cult 8th Edition Tactics - The day of Ascension draws near.
Kandela wrote:So I've been thinking lately about my Magus Smite Battery and have to say even though I'm pleased by their performance it kinda feels like they could use a change. 5 Magus is maybe too much. I've never seen anyone fielding more than 3 Magi at once, maybe that's because they are afraid to be called cheesy or they don't have enough models but maybe there is something more to it. 3 Magi can get every power from the Broodmind discipline and have Smite in case they need something to die. Is it just me or more than 3 Magi feels somewhat redundant?
What do you think? What is the magic number of Magi in one army?
I think 2-3 is probably enough for most lists if you aren't aiming for Smite spam specifically. The Broodmind powers are all really strong and potentially game changing so having some duplicates is probably still a good idea. I know at our local shop my Magnus has earned the eternal scorn of our resident Guard player after suffering a series of devastating Mind Control usages.
Caspian89 wrote:This is the list I'm looking at building.
Any suggestions are helpful.
Biggest vulnerability I see with the list is its melee compliment. You have a good mix of assault and shooting elements but the assault aspect doesn't have much threat saturation (assuming they are being used as ambushers of course) which makes them fairly obvious targets for enemy shooting. Not sure what I think about the mass Ratlings. I've had a squad used against me and they didn't impress, but then again GSC characters have a back-up via Unquestioning Loyalty that most characters do not so it isn't perhaps the fairest of circumstances.
Also you can probably get the list down to 3 detachments by moving the artillery and extra tank commander to the Vanguard detachment, though you would have to drop the Powerlifter Sentinel to do so.
Speaking of the Powerlifter, I bet one could make a fairly convincing one using the Scout Sentinel chassis and some of the servo arms from the Galvanic Servohauler kit.
I am actually rather interested to see if Necromunda might have some hints as to things we might inherit when the time comes for our codex. The gangs use a lot of the same low-tech/civilian equipment as the cults and the game might end up introducing new weaponry for the army (already mentioned a "Needle Rifle" which I assume is a bigger version of the Needle Pistol our Primus carries around). Also if GSC becomes a playable "gang" as some of the rumors implied we might get a couple new kits alongside it (good place for an Aberrant kit for instance).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/28 14:40:59
2017/10/28 17:45:09
Subject: Re:Genestealer Cult 8th Edition Tactics - The day of Ascension draws near.
Thank-you for the comments on my list. I'll take it all into consideration. It seems that a no brainer first purchase are 2x Leman Russ kits, followed by 2x Sentinel Kits. Hopefully by then I'll have more games and the theorycrafting can make way to in-game experiences. That said...a few in game experiences can skew otherwise sound theorycrafting and lead to less that satisfying long-term results. Good thing this is just a hobby and making mistakes just means buying different models!
2017/10/29 15:44:28
Subject: Re:Genestealer Cult 8th Edition Tactics - The day of Ascension draws near.
My friend and I hung out a little bit and he pointed out to something about our league - majority of games is being run in 1700 format with 2000 format being reserved for special occasions (like the league ending tournaments). That's a pain in the bum since I want to play with them in this year league, hence my request to review an army list in more "unusual" format of 1700.
Spoiler:
++ Battalion (CP +3) (Genestealer_Cults) ++
+ Troops +
Acolyte Hybrids: 5x Acolyte Hybrid, 2x Heavy Rock Saw
Acolyte Hybrids: 5x Acolyte Hybrid, 2x Heavy Rock Saw
League follows some additional rules too:
Can't repeat a same detachment (so can't for instance run two battalions as I would like)
Auxiliary detachment is disallowed
Has anyone played in 1700 format? Is it different from 1500 or is it just 1500 with 200 points tacked-on?
2017/10/29 16:47:36
Subject: Re:Genestealer Cult 8th Edition Tactics - The day of Ascension draws near.
Kandela wrote: My friend and I hung out a little bit and he pointed out to something about our league - majority of games is being run in 1700 format with 2000 format being reserved for special occasions (like the league ending tournaments). That's a pain in the bum since I want to play with them in this year league, hence my request to review an army list in more "unusual" format of 1700.
Spoiler:
++ Battalion (CP +3) (Genestealer_Cults) ++
+ Troops +
Acolyte Hybrids: 5x Acolyte Hybrid, 2x Heavy Rock Saw
Acolyte Hybrids: 5x Acolyte Hybrid, 2x Heavy Rock Saw
League follows some additional rules too:
Can't repeat a same detachment (so can't for instance run two battalions as I would like)
Auxiliary detachment is disallowed
Has anyone played in 1700 format? Is it different from 1500 or is it just 1500 with 200 points tacked-on?
Why the 2 iconwards? I'd rather see 2 primus or even 2 more magus. Yes the 6+FNP is ok but unless it's stacked with somethingelse (like tyranid Catalist) it's too little too late too often. I'd also consider Genestealers over the Aberrants....I'd love for aberrants to be better but they die too easily...yes they likely take a unit with them but they are not likely to make their points back unless you hit a super sweet big target and those are likelt going to be too well bubble wraped.
2017/10/29 17:41:27
Subject: Re:Genestealer Cult 8th Edition Tactics - The day of Ascension draws near.
Timeshadow wrote: Why the 2 iconwards? I'd rather see 2 primus or even 2 more magus. Yes the 6+FNP is ok but unless it's stacked with somethingelse (like tyranid Catalist) it's too little too late too often. I'd also consider Genestealers over the Aberrants....I'd love for aberrants to be better but they die too easily...yes they likely take a unit with them but they are not likely to make their points back unless you hit a super sweet big target and those are likelt going to be too well bubble wraped.
Fair point about Iconwards. Though they do allow to re-roll failed morale test too not only 6+FNP. I'm not yet ready to replace my Aberrants with Genestealers. I'll make them work damn it
2017/10/29 22:46:40
Subject: Re:Genestealer Cult 8th Edition Tactics - The day of Ascension draws near.
Kandela wrote: League follows some additional rules too: Can't repeat a same detachment (so can't for instance run two battalions as I would like) Auxiliary detachment is disallowed
Has anyone played in 1700 format? Is it different from 1500 or is it just 1500 with 200 points tacked-on?
I understand why they don't want duplicate detachments, but it is a bit unfortunate. Our local group tends to play at 1500, 1850, 2000, and 2500 point brackets so I don't really have any experience at the 1700 bracket unfortunately. Main thing I'd be weary of is the possibility of seeing Lords of War with the extra points available. Mind Control is a solid counter to the shooty ones, but Primarchs could be a problem as they basically require Genestealers or mass Demolition Charges to deal with due to their redundant defenses making low-volume attacks fairly unreliable.
Timeshadow wrote: Why the 2 iconwards? I'd rather see 2 primus or even 2 more magus. Yes the 6+FNP is ok but unless it's stacked with somethingelse (like tyranid Catalist) it's too little too late too often.
Iconwards are mainly for moral mitigation. Most GSC infantry actually have fairly good leadership values and the reroll from the Iconward generally will suffice to keep them around baring extreme casualties. The 6+ FNP should be thought of as a handy bonus (especially vs mortal wounds) rather than a main feature. While the Patriarch is the best at mitigating the effects of moral, each Iconward is just over a third of the cost so they represent a smaller investment for less aggressive squads like Neophytes and can cover a greater portion of the army. They also are handy in a pinch as a counter-assault unit as each hits like a Genestealer with its Flurry of Claws ability up.
Timeshadow wrote: I'd also consider Genestealers over the Aberrants....I'd love for aberrants to be better but they die too easily...yes they likely take a unit with them but they are not likely to make their points back unless you hit a super sweet big target and those are likely going to be too well bubblewrapped.
To be fair, those arguments against Aberrants can be made against Genestealers as well. Both are fragile if left exposed and both are unlikely to make their points back if stymied by bubblewrap. Based on my experience with Aberrants they do much better as mechanized troops than as ambushers. Transports generally solve the issue of getting them to their preferred target and their small squad size leaves plenty of space for support to ride alongside them. They need to avoid infantry fights when possible, as apart from multi-wound T5 it is a waste of their capabilities.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/29 22:47:47
2017/10/30 07:57:57
Subject: Re:Genestealer Cult 8th Edition Tactics - The day of Ascension draws near.
Kandela wrote: League follows some additional rules too:
Can't repeat a same detachment (so can't for instance run two battalions as I would like)
Auxiliary detachment is disallowed
Has anyone played in 1700 format? Is it different from 1500 or is it just 1500 with 200 points tacked-on?
I understand why they don't want duplicate detachments, but it is a bit unfortunate. Our local group tends to play at 1500, 1850, 2000, and 2500 point brackets so I don't really have any experience at the 1700 bracket unfortunately. Main thing I'd be weary of is the possibility of seeing Lords of War with the extra points available. Mind Control is a solid counter to the shooty ones, but Primarchs could be a problem as they basically require Genestealers or mass Demolition Charges to deal with due to their redundant defenses making low-volume attacks fairly unreliable.
Timeshadow wrote:
Why the 2 iconwards? I'd rather see 2 primus or even 2 more magus. Yes the 6+FNP is ok but unless it's stacked with somethingelse (like tyranid Catalist) it's too little too late too often.
Iconwards are mainly for moral mitigation. Most GSC infantry actually have fairly good leadership values and the reroll from the Iconward generally will suffice to keep them around baring extreme casualties. The 6+ FNP should be thought of as a handy bonus (especially vs mortal wounds) rather than a main feature. While the Patriarch is the best at mitigating the effects of moral, each Iconward is just over a third of the cost so they represent a smaller investment for less aggressive squads like Neophytes and can cover a greater portion of the army. They also are handy in a pinch as a counter-assault unit as each hits like a Genestealer with its Flurry of Claws ability up.
Timeshadow wrote:
I'd also consider Genestealers over the Aberrants....I'd love for aberrants to be better but they die too easily...yes they likely take a unit with them but they are not likely to make their points back unless you hit a super sweet big target and those are likely going to be too well bubblewrapped.
To be fair, those arguments against Aberrants can be made against Genestealers as well. Both are fragile if left exposed and both are unlikely to make their points back if stymied by bubblewrap. Based on my experience with Aberrants they do much better as mechanized troops than as ambushers. Transports generally solve the issue of getting them to their preferred target and their small squad size leaves plenty of space for support to ride alongside them. They need to avoid infantry fights when possible, as apart from multi-wound T5 it is a waste of their capabilities.
From what I understand Lords of War are a bit sketchy in the tournament. You could bring one but there is always a big fuss about it, maybe it will change in 2018 to not allowed or fully allowed, I don't know yet.
Thank you for more fair points. Will take it into consideration.
Think I will go with no Iconwards for a bit but still get a squad of aberrants for heavy target hunting. I don't really have to watch out for morale as they are all a 10 man meatshield with no upgrades. The lack of Iconwards opens up points to get myself a third Leman Russ that I'm very fond of:
Spoiler:
++ Battalion (CP +3) (Genestealer_Cults) ++
+ Troops +
Acolyte Hybrids: 5x Acolyte Hybrid, 2x Heavy Rock Saw
Acolyte Hybrids: 5x Acolyte Hybrid, 2x Heavy Rock Saw
Aberrants will take one chimera (heavy flamer one) and I will leave one squad back with my warlord for objective securing. Triple Leman Russ will be huge firing 6 battle cannon shots a turn. 2 Magi will try to cast mass hypnosis on units that my acolytes will charge and sentinels will plink away at enenmy heavies (the ones in the back as I suspect Aberrants to kill or scare away anything worth shooting at).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/30 08:13:11
2017/10/30 13:34:25
Subject: Re:Genestealer Cult 8th Edition Tactics - The day of Ascension draws near.
They also seem very weak to me. They should at least be Toughness 5! I hope they get a boost in our codex. Right now I'd take them because it's easier to paint 6 models that any number of Genestealers/Acolytes!
A 6 model unit of Aberrants with 2x Power Hammers and 4x Power Picks is 214 points. That's 12 wounds at toughness 4, 5+ save with their Bestial Vigor rule...which is not that great. you get 4 S10 attacks, -3AP, 3wounds, hitting on 4+ and 8x S7, -2 AP, D3 wound attacks hitting on 3+. I only take 2 Hammers because they are so expensive and I'd rather loose the cheaper Pick wielding models and have the Hammers models get into combat.
Compare to a 10 model unit of Acolyte Hybrids with 4x Heavy Rock Saws is 206 points. That's 10 wounds at toughness 3, 5+ save. Also pretty squishy...but I think Toughness 3 is a lot worse than Toughness 4. 8x S8 attacks, -4 AP, 2 wounds hitting on 3+. EDIT: Not to discount the 13x Rending Claw attacks at Strength 4 AND the 6 Cultist Knife attacks at S3.
If you go to AM you get Bullgryns. For 168 points you get 4x Bullgryns with Power Mauls. that's 12 wounds at toughness 5, 4+ save. You get 12 attacks at S7, -1ap, 2wounds, that goes up to 16 attacks on the charge. For 119 points you get a Chimera with Heavy Flamers to carry them. Bullgryns are WAY more durable than the Aberrants but do not hit as hard. Not they could potentially do a psuedo Cult Ambush by coming in from a table edge via the Dagger of Tusakh.
For Toughness 8 vehicles and monsters I think the Acolyte squads with higher model counts (12+ models) might be the best choice, especially ambushing with a Primus, now hitting on 2's. If you go to 15 count you can take 2 more Cutters (or Drills or Cutters) or 2 Demo charges. If you really need to stretch the units capacities you can buff then with a Power From Beyond for S10 Rocksaw attacks. Power From Beyond also grants an extra attack so now you've got 3x S10 attacks, -4 AP, 2 wounds hitting on 3+ per Rocksaw model. Also don't discount the cultist knife attacks, especially when buffed to S5.
Just for comparison a 15 model Acolyte Squad with 4x Rocksaw and 2x Democharges is 281 points. You can loose 9 wounds in this squad before removing a special weapon - good luck with Morale though. EDIT: Also remember the 19x S4 Rending claw attacks AND 9x Cultist Knife attacks....that's a lot of attacks.
A 20 count Purestrain Genestealer squad is 300, though that squad cannot crack big armour very easily.
The Aberramts are so expensive per Hit Roll you have to make...even if they are hard hitting. I'd rather have more chances to hit with moderate damage that hit hard once or twice.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2017/10/30 15:22:46
2017/10/30 13:44:14
Subject: Re:Genestealer Cult 8th Edition Tactics - The day of Ascension draws near.
Kandela wrote: From what I understand Lords of War are a bit sketchy in the tournament. You could bring one but there is always a big fuss about it, maybe it will change in 2018 to not allowed or fully allowed, I don't know yet. Thank you for more fair points. Will take it into consideration.
There's no Lord of War available to GSC that is scarier than Mortarion or Magnus. In a tournament setting you will probably face off against these and Imperial Knights, Lord of Skulls and other Baneblade chassis.
Taking a lean (no sponsons) Shadowsword as your AM detachment can give you a fighting chance against other Lords of War without throwing away your Purestrains or Hammer Aberrants. Even better is to take a supreme command detachment with 3x Primaris Psykers to protect it (Psychic Barrier etc.) and add more Smites/Deny and an additional 1 CP.
I play:
40K: Daemons, Tau
AoS: Blades of Khorne, Disciples of Tzeentch
Warmachine: Convergence of Cyriss
Infinity: Haqqislam, Tohaa
Malifaux: Bayou
Star Wars Legion: Republic & Separatists
MESBG: Far Harad, Misty Mountains
2017/10/30 14:36:18
Subject: Re:Genestealer Cult 8th Edition Tactics - The day of Ascension draws near.
They also seem very weak to me. They should at least be Toughness 5! I hope they get a boost in our codex. Right now I'd take them because it's easier to paint 6 models that any number of Genestealers/Acolytes!
A 6 model unit of Aberrants with 2x Power Hammers and 4x Power Picks is 214 points. That's 12 wounds at toughness 4, 5+ save with their Bestial Vigor rule...which is not that great. you get 4 S10 attacks, -3AP, 3wounds, hitting on 4+ and 8x S7, -2 AP, D3 wound attacks hitting on 3+. I only take 2 Hammers because they are so expensive and I'd rather loose the cheaper Pick wielding models and have the Hammers models get into combat.
Compare to a 10 model unit of Acolyte Hybrids with 4x Heavy Rock Saws is 206 points. That's 10 wounds at toughness 3, 5+ save. Also pretty squishy...but I think Toughness 3 is a lot worse than Toughness 4. 8x S8 attacks, -4 AP, 2 wounds hitting on 3+
If you go to AM you get Bullgryns. For 168 points you get 4x Bullgryns with Power Mauls. that's 12 wounds at toughness 5, 4+ save. You get 12 attacks at S7, -1ap, 2wounds, that goes up to 16 attacks on the charge. For 119 points you get a Chimera with Heavy Flamers to carry them. Bullgryns are WAY more durable than the Aberrants but do not hit as hard. Not they could potentially do a psuedo Cult Ambush by coming in from a table edge via the Dagger of Tusakh.
For Toughness 8 vehicles and monsters I think the Acolyte squads with higher model counts (12+ models) might be the best choice, especially ambushing with a Primus, now hitting on 2's. If you go to 15 count you can take 2 more Cutters (or Drills or Cutters) or 2 Demo charges. If you really need to stretch the units capacities you can buff then with a Power From Beyond for S10 Rocksaw attacks. Power From Beyond also grants an extra attack so now you've got 3x S10 attacks, -4 AP, 2 wounds hitting on 3+ per Rocksaw model. Also don't discount the cultist knife attacks, especially when buffed to S5.
Just for comparison a 15 model Acolyte Squad with 4x Rocksaw and 2x Democharges is 288 points. You can loose 9 wounds in this squad before removing a special weapon - good luck with Morale though. A 20 count Purestrain Genestealer squad is 300, though that squad cannot crack big armour very easily.
The Aberramts are so expensive per Hit Roll you have to make...even if they are hard hitting. I'd rather have more chances to hit with moderate damage that hit hard once or twice.
Very nice, that's sound assessment of Aberrants in my opinion, even if we disagree with their usability.
2017/10/30 17:49:48
Subject: Re:Genestealer Cult 8th Edition Tactics - The day of Ascension draws near.
I put my anticipated battlefield roles next to the units. I have increased the melee capacity at the cost of the Basilisks and two Sentinels.
Is it crazy to put so many points into the Tank Commanders? I figure I should go all-in on those guys, bubble wrapping with Neophytes. I do not want to be firing Lascannons on 4+'s..it hurts too much.
The Neophyte/Magus Squads are supporting units, ideally popping up in cover and shooting/psyching.
I bought a Goliath model and now I feel like an ass not using it...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/30 20:14:39
2017/10/31 06:47:04
Subject: Re:Genestealer Cult 8th Edition Tactics - The day of Ascension draws near.
I put my anticipated battlefield roles next to the units. I have increased the melee capacity at the cost of the Basilisks and two Sentinels.
Is it crazy to put so many points into the Tank Commanders? I figure I should go all-in on those guys, bubble wrapping with Neophytes. I do not want to be firing Lascannons on 4+'s..it hurts too much.
The Neophyte/Magus Squads are supporting units, ideally popping up in cover and shooting/psyching.
I bought a Goliath model and now I feel like an ass not using it...
About Tank Commanders: You are literally paying 35 points for 3+ BS, I don't know if that's worth it (as in - I really don't have an idea, didn't run math on them).
Another problem is this 1 point in 2001. It's not a 2000 list, you would have to ask people for this one point before every game.
Genestealers with Patriarch will blend almost everything.
I'm not so sold on Mind Control power, maybe it would be better to run 2 Mass Hypnosis for better coverage and just smite if you used it with the other Magus (again I don't know, just giving ideas)
I would personally split Acolytes into 10-man squad with 4 heavy rock saws and 5 man squad with demo charges, but maybe you want to make sure that they arrive in decent position with your Primus.
I don't know about Ratlings but if you want to field them go ahead. Just tell us how they fared later
2017/10/31 19:39:47
Subject: Re:Genestealer Cult 8th Edition Tactics - The day of Ascension draws near.
Kandela wrote: Listened to advice and revised my army list:
About Tank Commanders: You are literally paying 35 points for 3+ BS, I don't know if that's worth it (as in - I really don't have an idea, didn't run math on them).
Another problem is this 1 point in 2001. It's not a 2000 list, you would have to ask people for this one point before every game.
I didn't quite realize they were that much more expensive, thanks for the reflection! I messed about a bit with Battlescribe and for the cost of 2x Tank Commanders, all kitted out I can get 3 Battle Cannon Russes w/Heavy Bolter sponsors and hull mount. For the cost of accuracy and wound re-rolls I get additional shots but the real bonus here is a 3rd T8 12wound model that gets the Defenders of Humanity rule for securing objectives. I did some Mathhammer (http://mathhammer8th.surge.sh/):
Assuming 1 Tank Commander gets roughly 7 Battlecannon shots per shooting phase using Grinding Advance rules and re-rolls 1's via Tank Orders.
Multiply that by 2 for 14 Battle Cannon shots because two Tank Commanders.
This should yield 3.63 failed saves amounting to roughly 6 or 7 Wounds.
Assuming 1 Leman Russ gets roughly 7 Battlecannon shots per shooting phase using Grinding Advance rules BUT NO re-rolls.
Multiply that by 3 for 21 Battle Cannon shots because of three Russ tanks.
This should yield 3.5 failed saves amounting to roughly 6 or 7 wounds.
There's also very little difference between 18x BS3+ w/reroll 1's VS 27x BS4+ Heavy Bolters shooting Marine Equivilent infantry.
(Hopefully I did it right)
So based on that I WOULD prefer 3x Leman Russ tanks at 4+ BS given that I get an additional tank with 12 more wounds AND an additional bunch of heavy bolter shots as well. It also feels good to roll more dice.
EDIT: Further consideration yields....To take 3x Russes still leaves you short an HQ option for a Spearhead detachment. The Primaris Psycher seems like the no-brainer choice for 40 points. That being the case it makes sense to instead take 1x Tank Commander and 2x Russes....which still leaves you short a Heavy Support choice for the detachment! So I guess it's splitting hairs either way.
As far as the rogue 1 point...I can adjust to avoid difficulties like that. Point taken.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/11/01 02:38:40
2017/11/01 07:40:23
Subject: Re:Genestealer Cult 8th Edition Tactics - The day of Ascension draws near.
So I've taken a look at your list again and found something weird - you can't have 4 HQs in Battalion Detachment. Right now you have to either ditch one HQ or make a Patrol Detachment with one of your HQ and one troop from your Battalion.
Also for armour cracking squad for Hades breaching drill I would consider Melta - they are going to arrive with deepstrike either way and 2 Meltas are way better at cracking armour than Plasmas.
Additional note: Since you have an IG detachment you should get your Sentinels from IG - Heavy Flamers are 2 points cheaper than Genestealer Cult for some reason.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/01 07:53:15
2017/11/01 12:54:13
Subject: Re:Genestealer Cult 8th Edition Tactics - The day of Ascension draws near.
So I've taken a look at your list again and found something weird - you can't have 4 HQs in Battalion Detachment. Right now you have to either ditch one HQ or make a Patrol Detachment with one of your HQ and one troop from your Battalion.
Also for armour cracking squad for Hades breaching drill I would consider Melta - they are going to arrive with deepstrike either way and 2 Meltas are way better at cracking armour than Plasmas.
Additional note: Since you have an IG detachment you should get your Sentinels from IG - Heavy Flamers are 2 points cheaper than Genestealer Cult for some reason.
Thanks for the tips. I hear what you're saying about Meltas...especially since those Vets squads will not have a Commander to help Order them to re-roll those 1's on rapid-fire Plasma shots.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Enjoying this analytical Mathhammer approach so I did some more comparisons. Acolytes (228 pts) VS. Aberhants (222 pts) VS. 15 Genestealers (225pts)
NOTE: I don't know anything about math or probability so I could be totally missing the mark here.
12 Model Acolyte Squad (4x Rock Saw) VS Leman Russ EQ vehicle. Rock Saw Attacks: 8x S8, AP4, D2. Yields: 2.6 failed saves. Roughly 4-6 wounds.
Rending Claw attacks: 16x S4, AP1, D1. Yields: 1.3 failed saves. Roughly 1 wound. (Don't know how to sort out the Rending aspect...but let's assume +1 Wound)
Knife Attacks: 9x S3, AP0, D1. Yields: 0.4 failed saves. Roughly 0.5 wound.
Average result from a full attack: 8 wounds (roughly)
W/ Primus Buff: 9.5 wounds (roughly)
w/ Power From Beyond: 14 wounds (very roughly)
6 Model Abberhant (3 Hammers/3 Picks) Squad vs Leman Russ EQ vehicle Hammer Attacks: 6x S10, AP3, D3. Yields: 1.7 failed saves. Roughly 3-6 wounds.
Pick attacks: 6x S7, AP2, Dd3. Yields: .89 failed saves. Roughly 2 wounds.
Average result from a full attack: 5-8 wounds
w/ Primus Buff: 8 wounds, just more likely to be 8 than 5.
w/ Power From Beyond: 12-15 wounds.
15 Genestealers Squad vs Leman Russ EQ vehicle Rending Claw Attacks: 60x S4, AP1, D1. Yields: This one is a bit beyond me but I think it's around 8 wounds trying to rough in rends...
w/ Patriarch Buff: Very roughly 10
w/ Power From Beyond: very very roughly 20 (!?)
Genestealers win. They have more wounds in their squad and they have an invulnerable save, a higher leadership and are likely to be in range of a Patriarch most of the time to provide the buffs and fearless. Downside is they can't fit in a transport.
It's interesting to see the +1 to Hit isn't as useful as I had though. Increasing Strength though....that seems to yield the most benefit.
So that was my fun for this morning. Back to work.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/11/01 20:16:40
2017/11/02 20:14:47
Subject: Re:Genestealer Cult 8th Edition Tactics - The day of Ascension draws near.
I crunched some numbers a little harder and got the following vs T8 Sv3+:
12 Model Acolyte Squad (4x Rock Saw) Full Attak = 8 wounds Primus Buff = 8 wounds Power From Beyond = 13 wounds PFB + HQ Buffs = 18 wounds 6 Model Aberrant Squad (3 Hammers/3 Picks) Full Attak = 8 wounds Primus Buff = 11 wounds Power From Beyond = 13 wounds PFB + HQ Buffs = 18 wounds
15 Genestealers Squad Full Attak = 7 wounds Patriarch Buff = 8 wounds Power From Beyond = 12 wounds PFB + HQ Buffs = 15 wounds
Some of those different results are due to rounding before multiplying for damage, such as the Primus seemingly not affecting the Acolytes at all (he added 0.5 saw wounds and 0.5 claw wounds, but all that did was mean I was rounding down instead of up).
I'm pretty impressed with how close they all are, but Stealer survivability feels like it still tips it to them a bit. Curious how the numbers skew vs T7 instead of T8.
- Salvage
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/03 14:10:32
Wow! Thanks for doing that math and tightening up the numbers. It's also very easy to read. Thanks for condensing the language.
While I will not base my decisions about what to buy/paint totally on average probabilities it does really help a beginner to make sense of their units. It's great to get a cool model and paint it really nicely but that good feeling doesn't last long when you find out it is not nearly as powerful as you hoped. I think this approach can also can give units that a veteran has put aside after two or three bad showing another chance - once they see that maybe they just had a less than average showing.
Acolytes and Abberants get a nod if you don't want to Ambush. They fit well inside a Chimera or Rockgrinder respectively.
Stealers would have to Ambush I think to be of best use. Stealers get another point in their favour because their buff machine - the Patriarch - is so much more powerful than the Primus. When you assume that the squad of 15 is likely to have the Patriarch in the mix the # of wounds goes up substantially. This does not include the additional Smite damage the Patriarch could do as well. Having the Patriarch with Power From Beyond means that those Stealers are far more likely than the other two units to be getting that final epic average of 15 wounds. Stealers are also so much more flexible given their 'fast and deadly' ability to advance and charge. If they wipe out a unit they are more likely to get into contact with another one quickly.
Sadly I think the entire army is outshone by the Genestealers.
15k+
Emperor's Spears 2500
Beastmen 10k
