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Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




Ruin wrote:
So, OP fess up. Why did you change the title?


Someone said I was judging gamers at large based on the posts I see here...they are 100% correct..so I changed the title. No huge conspiracy or secret.
   
Made in gb
[SWAP SHOP MOD]
Killer Klaivex








Tangentially related.


 
   
Made in us
Most Glorious Grey Seer





Everett, WA

100BostonFan wrote:
It just seems as a community we want quality games, but a lot of us do not want to spend any money for these games.

Have you looked at GW's prices lately? Take the holiday bundles that go for £100 in the UK. They're listed as $170 for the US. On what planet does £100 = $170? The current exchange rate should put the use price at $135 at most (rounded up). This pattern holds all across GW's line, except for older stuff that hasn't been adjusted upward yet. My God. We've become Australia. Okay, maybe not quite, but still...

Anyway, this is why it seems like we don't want to spend any money for these games. We're being asked to pay way too much for them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/07 16:43:11


Reading's for morons who can't understand pictures.

 
   
Made in us
Kid_Kyoto






Probably work

 Breotan wrote:
100BostonFan wrote:
It just seems as a community we want quality games, but a lot of us do not want to spend any money for these games.

Have you looked at GW's prices lately?

He said quality games.

Assume all my mathhammer comes from here: https://github.com/daed/mathhammer 
   
Made in ca
Ancient Venerable Black Templar Dreadnought





Canada

I think the issue is the quality of model you get from GW for the money.

Say for instance this:

1/35 Pz.Bef.Wg.V Panther Ausf.G (picked this since 1/35 scale is pretty close to the GW scale that is still too small).
http://www.dragon-models.com/d-m-item.asp?pid=DRA6847
~$70 (https://www.scalemates.com/kits/1009286-dragon-6847-pz-bef-wg-v-panther-ausf-g)

Predator
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-CA/Predator-2017
~$70

Would you call these comparable tank models for the price?
A Predator goes together pretty fast and dirty in comparison which is what we want for wargaming but requires a much more simple mold that the Dragon kit.

Why be so "cheap"?
Because this hobby runs on "bulk" rather than spend a month or so doing fine detailing on a tank, we crank them out in groups of 3 or so.

Good reference by the way:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Scale_Model_Kits_for_40K

A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte

 
   
Made in us
Fireknife Shas'el





East Coast, USA

 Breotan wrote:
100BostonFan wrote:
It just seems as a community we want quality games, but a lot of us do not want to spend any money for these games.

Have you looked at GW's prices lately? Take the holiday bundles that go for £100 in the UK. They're listed as $170 for the US. On what planet does £100 = $170? The current exchange rate should put the use price at $135 at most (rounded up). This pattern holds all across GW's line, except for older stuff that hasn't been adjusted upward yet. My God. We've become Australia. Okay, maybe not quite, but still...

Anyway, this is why it seems like we don't want to spend any money for these games. We're being asked to pay way too much for them.



I don't think GW actually understands how different currencies work. More specifically, I don't think they realize that the comparative values of currencies change over time.

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Made in gb
Opportunist




Nottingham, England

They understand full well how it works, the prcining protects the value of their product, nor is it as unique as people make out it's just GW happens to be a major non USA company.

FFG stuff largely converts at close to $1 = £1 pricing here after tax at rrp. The UK price is inclusive of our VAT tax, whereas I believe in the US the sales tax varies state to state so the conversion is probably worse than most people work out.

Privateer press stuff is even worse, combining poor quality control and availability with a terrible comparative price.

Back on topic; different people in a hobby with different budgets is not unique to wargaming. What I dislike a lot is different groups trying to convince each other that their way is the true way and everyone else is wrong. Too many define the value of their chosen system by it not being something else, not by what it is itself.

I think what s a bit unique to non historical wargaming groups and is the sheer increasing toxic nature of some communities towards competing games or different points of view with their hobby.
   
Made in gb
Drop Trooper with Demo Charge





I wouldn't say I'm cheap so much as thrifty, I picked up a Start Collecting Scions and a box of Greatswords at the same time for example, using the spare parts from the Scions to make 20 of them all in all, the spare heads of the Greatswords then were used on Heresy era Marines and Guard sergeants to maximise their usefulness. Using as much from a kit is an art in the "lots of arms and heads, not enough torsos and legs" that GW does, I have lots of Lootas and Burnas due to creative chopping up of Black Reach Ork boyz as the bodies. Most of my mates are the same, so I'd say most gamers are just thrifty.

Like Space Marines and Fantasy, My log is full of them https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/721051.page
 
   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka





West Michigan, deep in Whitebread, USA

I guess I'm also guilty of being a cheapskate because while there is no AoS or WHFB community in my area, I like to paint up multiple warbands for me and my buddy to use (especially for skirmish level games) and instead of buying the AoS rules materials to game with, I use the free rulesets from One Page games to play my home games of Age of Sigmar with their 'One Page Fantasy' and even some skirmish level 40k with 'Grimdark Future'.



"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






because its not appearance for me, I am a cheap bastard.
   
Made in us
Dangerous Outrider





Seattle,WA

 thekingofkings wrote:
because its not appearance for me, I am a SEXY bastard.


Fixed
   
Made in us
Skillful Swordmaster





West Lafayette, IN

Perceived value. After TONS of price hikes and gakky rules updates, it just becomes less "valuable" to the gamer. I still want one of each army for 6th WFB and 3rd 40K, but not badly enough to pay current retail for them.

www.classichammer.com

For 4-6th WFB, 2-5th 40k, and similar timeframe gaming 
   
Made in es
Krazed Killa Kan




Barcelona, Spain

 Breotan wrote:
100BostonFan wrote:
It just seems as a community we want quality games, but a lot of us do not want to spend any money for these games.

Have you looked at GW's prices lately? Take the holiday bundles that go for £100 in the UK. They're listed as $170 for the US. On what planet does £100 = $170? The current exchange rate should put the use price at $135 at most (rounded up). This pattern holds all across GW's line, except for older stuff that hasn't been adjusted upward yet. My God. We've become Australia. Okay, maybe not quite, but still...

Anyway, this is why it seems like we don't want to spend any money for these games. We're being asked to pay way too much for them.



You wanted independence and not pay the King's taxes. You have your cake, now eat it with the topping included, you rebellious colonials (I jest, this is just a joke)
   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka





West Michigan, deep in Whitebread, USA

 Just Tony wrote:
Perceived value. After TONS of price hikes and gakky rules updates, it just becomes less "valuable" to the gamer. I still want one of each army for 6th WFB and 3rd 40K, but not badly enough to pay current retail for them.


I don't know....you mean to say a Landraider is not worth the 100% price hike it's seen since its release?

Minis Gaming has gone to a very weird place lately. I have actually had people scoff at the idea of buying secondhand models on ebay, or from sellers like the giant bitz store at Gencon that sells single figures in ziplock bags, like previously owned minis are too 'tainted' by cooties to offset the usual massive savings.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/12 13:50:14




"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."  
   
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[DCM]
Bird from Hell






 AegisGrimm wrote:
Minis Gaming has gone to a very weird place lately. I have actually had people scoff at the idea of buying secondhand models on ebay, or from sellers like the giant bitz store at Gencon that sells single figures in ziplock bags, like previously owned minis are too 'tainted' by cooties to offset the usual massive savings.


Let's be honest, they very often are tainted. Poor assembly, worse paint, there are tons of models on ebay that I wouldn't take even if they were free. I don't care how much they cost, it's just not worth the effort required to salvage them. And given that chance of ending up with garbage I'd rather pay a bit more for something NIB and guarantee that I don't have to deal with it.

Laying low in a blood filled trench
Kill time 'til my very own death
On my face I can feel the falling rain
Never see my friends again

In the smoke, in the mud and lead
Smell the fear and the feeling of dread
Soon be time to go over the wall
Rapid fire and end of us all


SELL ME YOUR FORGEWORLD ATLAS 
   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka





West Michigan, deep in Whitebread, USA

Meh, maybe I am just coming from a viewpoint that is used to previous years of buying metal models on ebay that require nothing more than Simple Green to make brand new, and I am super choosy when buying preassembled plastic minis. I have never had to repair what I have bought from Ebay, or the big used GW minis seller at Gencon, unless it's a mini I am already prepared to salvage going into the purchase. If I have good evidence that I am buying plastics that are assembled correctly, I see no reason to buy new ones.

Doesn't mean I don't buy plenty of new stuff, of course.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/11/12 15:51:24




"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."  
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Baltimore, MD

Different strokes for different folks. There's nothing wrong with wanting to start with new models, especially since plastic is tougher to strip and challenging to impossible to disassemble/reassemble.

I buy a ton of stuff second hand, and not just nicely painted or primed stuff. I buy garbage lots, with blurry photos, trying to get lucky. Sometimes I lose (like when the oop hellhound did not have a turret or upper hull plate) but sometimes I win (like when what looked like a OOP Griffon turned out to be one, and complete).

OTOH, I'm aware that spending hours cleaning and repairing a leman russ is, dollar for dollar, not the best use of my time. But I enjoy it. So, for those that don't, I totally get it!

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Courageous Space Marine Captain






 AegisGrimm wrote:
 Just Tony wrote:
Perceived value. After TONS of price hikes and gakky rules updates, it just becomes less "valuable" to the gamer. I still want one of each army for 6th WFB and 3rd 40K, but not badly enough to pay current retail for them.


I don't know....you mean to say a Landraider is not worth the 100% price hike it's seen since its release?



I dont think those 50 cent cans of cokes 10 years ago aren't worth the 75 to 1 dollar they charge out of standard vending machines and quicky marts these days. nothing really changed but they are charging more.

edit horrific quote fail.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/11/15 04:13:00


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.

Oh my god I'm becoming martel.
Send help!

 
   
Made in us
Skillful Swordmaster





West Lafayette, IN

 AegisGrimm wrote:
 Just Tony wrote:
Perceived value. After TONS of price hikes and gakky rules updates, it just becomes less "valuable" to the gamer. I still want one of each army for 6th WFB and 3rd 40K, but not badly enough to pay current retail for them.


I don't know....you mean to say a Landraider is not worth the 100% price hike it's seen since its release?

Minis Gaming has gone to a very weird place lately. I have actually had people scoff at the idea of buying secondhand models on ebay, or from sellers like the giant bitz store at Gencon that sells single figures in ziplock bags, like previously owned minis are too 'tainted' by cooties to offset the usual massive savings.


I'm saying that, AND that the rules have sloshed to the point that the perceived value as gaming pieces has been lessened.

www.classichammer.com

For 4-6th WFB, 2-5th 40k, and similar timeframe gaming 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




 Breotan wrote:
100BostonFan wrote:
It just seems as a community we want quality games, but a lot of us do not want to spend any money for these games.

Have you looked at GW's prices lately? Take the holiday bundles that go for £100 in the UK. They're listed as $170 for the US. On what planet does £100 = $170? The current exchange rate should put the use price at $135 at most (rounded up). This pattern holds all across GW's line, except for older stuff that hasn't been adjusted upward yet. My God. We've become Australia. Okay, maybe not quite, but still...

Anyway, this is why it seems like we don't want to spend any money for these games. We're being asked to pay way too much for them.



The arguments about UK to US exchange rates not adding up is the same for countless US based companies products that are sold in the UK.

A $20 action figure will cost us £20 in the UK, a $300 games console will be £300 over here. It was exactly the same way back when the pound was much stronger than the dollar. It has always been the case. Is it right or fair? Hell no. But it is certainly not a one way process.
   
Made in es
Inspiring Icon Bearer




ListenToMeWarriors wrote:
 Breotan wrote:
100BostonFan wrote:
It just seems as a community we want quality games, but a lot of us do not want to spend any money for these games.

Have you looked at GW's prices lately? Take the holiday bundles that go for £100 in the UK. They're listed as $170 for the US. On what planet does £100 = $170? The current exchange rate should put the use price at $135 at most (rounded up). This pattern holds all across GW's line, except for older stuff that hasn't been adjusted upward yet. My God. We've become Australia. Okay, maybe not quite, but still...

Anyway, this is why it seems like we don't want to spend any money for these games. We're being asked to pay way too much for them.



The arguments about UK to US exchange rates not adding up is the same for countless US based companies products that are sold in the UK.

A $20 action figure will cost us £20 in the UK, a $300 games console will be £300 over here. It was exactly the same way back when the pound was much stronger than the dollar. It has always been the case. Is it right or fair? Hell no. But it is certainly not a one way process.


Mostly because manufacturers hedge their bets when selling abroad. Since you need to keep your list prices stable, you want to be safe in case there's a sudden appreciation.

   
Made in au
Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf





ListenToMeWarriors wrote:
 Breotan wrote:
100BostonFan wrote:
It just seems as a community we want quality games, but a lot of us do not want to spend any money for these games.

Have you looked at GW's prices lately? Take the holiday bundles that go for £100 in the UK. They're listed as $170 for the US. On what planet does £100 = $170? The current exchange rate should put the use price at $135 at most (rounded up). This pattern holds all across GW's line, except for older stuff that hasn't been adjusted upward yet. My God. We've become Australia. Okay, maybe not quite, but still...

Anyway, this is why it seems like we don't want to spend any money for these games. We're being asked to pay way too much for them.



The arguments about UK to US exchange rates not adding up is the same for countless US based companies products that are sold in the UK.

A $20 action figure will cost us £20 in the UK, a $300 games console will be £300 over here. It was exactly the same way back when the pound was much stronger than the dollar. It has always been the case. Is it right or fair? Hell no. But it is certainly not a one way process.
It's not really a case of GW just inflating for the hell of it like you're talking about with action figures and games consoles.

GW seem to be working off pre-brexit exchange rates, my guess is they're trying to cover themselves if the exchange rate swings back up again, the GBP vs USD hasn't been this low since mid 80's, and even then it was only temporarily that low. Whether they're right or wrong is another matter, it's been over a year since the brexit drop, but I'm sure GW don't want to drop prices massively and then have to raise them suddenly if the GBP rises again.

Australia pricing is way worse because the GBP vs AUD hasn't been at a level that matches the current release prices for about 15 years, and has been well below it for about 6 or 7 years.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/11/15 12:08:34


 
   
Made in us
Skilled SDF-1 Pin-Point Barrier Jockey





Mississippi

I came from a relatively poor background, and had to do a lot of improvising for my gaming hobby for many years - which usually meant either using a friends books/models or buying secondhand.

I've since been lucky to move up in the world, and while I buy an ungodly amount new nowadays, I still try to stretch my dollar as far as I can. GW's stuff has always been on the expensive side, but it's practically at eye-watering Apple level these days (coming from someone posting on an iPad, no less). Many times I have found myself debating between buying into a whole game vs. some 40K upgrade, and more often than not, GW has been losing on that front. More and more, any GW purchase I make is some second-hand model off e-bay, already assembled and mostly painted - and yet still cheaper than brand new.

I will unabashedly continue to scrimp and save to stretch my gaming dollar to go as far as I can make it, and I do not apoligize for any of my actions in this regard. If I don't feel I would get my money's worth from a purchase, I'll look elsewhere; it's my dollars and in the regard to my hobbies, I will dictate how it is spent.

It never ends well 
   
Made in us
Powerful Pegasus Knight






This comes with the poor college kid attitude and my first few jobs before I managed to dig into a salaried position. Many of the players on these forums started the hobby as a child or a college kid and had a lack of funds. It's rare I meet someone who started playing in their 30s+

I'm extremely cheap with wargaming... at $1500/year spending. During college? I'd eBay hunt or Warstore everything. Now? - support the local store that I barely go to since I own multiple tables of terrain and game at my place.


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/15 18:24:41



 
   
Made in us
Napoleonics Obsesser




MN

I am cheap because I actually get some small measure of satisfaction from being cheap in this hobby. It is like I am getting one over on the man!

I am not afraid to use paper templates to play a game....
https://bloodandspectacles.blogspot.com/2016/12/wargaming-on-budget-paper-templates.html

...and I love to scratchbuild or sculpt my own models when I can
https://bloodandspectacles.blogspot.com/2017/07/wargaming-on-budget-making-models.html

In extreme cases, I will make everythign I need such as rules, templates, and models!
https://bloodandspectacles.blogspot.com/2017/08/random-aquanautica-imperialis-picts.html

I guess since I hate DIY for my home/car I might as well be DIY with wargaming!

To be fair, most comes from a trade-off. When I was younger I had more time than money, and as I got older I had more moeny than time. As this trends changed I focused on different aspects of the hobby. Now, I have no money or time!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/15 18:31:05


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Made in gb
Imperial Admiral





Glasgow

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
ListenToMeWarriors wrote:
 Breotan wrote:
100BostonFan wrote:
It just seems as a community we want quality games, but a lot of us do not want to spend any money for these games.

Have you looked at GW's prices lately? Take the holiday bundles that go for £100 in the UK. They're listed as $170 for the US. On what planet does £100 = $170? The current exchange rate should put the use price at $135 at most (rounded up). This pattern holds all across GW's line, except for older stuff that hasn't been adjusted upward yet. My God. We've become Australia. Okay, maybe not quite, but still...

Anyway, this is why it seems like we don't want to spend any money for these games. We're being asked to pay way too much for them.



The arguments about UK to US exchange rates not adding up is the same for countless US based companies products that are sold in the UK.

A $20 action figure will cost us £20 in the UK, a $300 games console will be £300 over here. It was exactly the same way back when the pound was much stronger than the dollar. It has always been the case. Is it right or fair? Hell no. But it is certainly not a one way process.
It's not really a case of GW just inflating for the hell of it like you're talking about with action figures and games consoles.

GW seem to be working off pre-brexit exchange rates, my guess is they're trying to cover themselves if the exchange rate swings back up again, the GBP vs USD hasn't been this low since mid 80's, and even then it was only temporarily that low. Whether they're right or wrong is another matter, it's been over a year since the brexit drop, but I'm sure GW don't want to drop prices massively and then have to raise them suddenly if the GBP rises again.

Australia pricing is way worse because the GBP vs AUD hasn't been at a level that matches the current release prices for about 15 years, and has been well below it for about 6 or 7 years.

Of course they're covering themselves. A big price drop for current exchange rates won't be sustainable when the exchange rate returns but the product is devalued in the eyes of customers because they've become accustomed to lower prices. Consumer goods don't fluctuate with exchange rate as a rule.

Additionally, it's very difficult to lower prices on consumer goods without it being perceived as weakness by investors. If it's not part of a clearly defined strategy then it's not happening.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/18 10:36:05


 
   
Made in us
Seven Year War Afficianado






Chicago

100BostonFan wrote:
It just seems as a community we want quality games, but a lot of us do not want to spend any money for these games.

That pretty much sounds like me. I'm definitely a cheapskate.

If I may explain a bit, in a hobby like ours where there's so many games that vie for your attention and every game does what they can to get you to buy only their miniatures, rules, etc. it get's darned expensive. I can no longer speak as one who finds cheaper ways to play expensive games, though when I did play 40k, I found innumerable ways to stretch my gamign dollar by buying used figs, stripping them and repainting.

I and my gaming group have come around to the discovery that this hobby doesn't have to be super expensive and you can buy the figs you like (even if they are the expensive ones) play with the rules you like (lots of truely great well-written, elegant rulesets out there that dont' cost $80), not chase the new-edition-addiction, play smaller games and the result of all this is that you can play more games, better games and spend alot less mony.

I'd point out that the OP's desire for folks to buy the figs and minis that a game creates is pretty much confined to the sci-fantasy realm of gaming. Almost no one on the historical side is whining about how Flames of war gamers aren't buying FoW brand vehicles or how Bolt Action gamers are using other brands of miniatures. Historical gamers never bought into the aritificial -and frankly silly- idea that you have to buy the figs, rules and background from the same manufacturere.


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Made in jp
Fixture of Dakka





Japan

I am a little bit late too the discussion, for me it is like with the star wars battlefront 2 loot crate debacle, i don't want to give my money to a company that sees us just as money cows.
And i spend lots of money to get Kingdom death imported to Japan, again it is about perceived value, if i feel that a company is trying to sell me a product that i feel they made an effort and stand behind their product, then i am willing to spend my money on it.

And living in Japan there are so many high quality plastic kits for a reasonable price that GW pricing makes no sense, although they have been improving over the last few years.


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Longtime Dakkanaut





Norfolk

 Eilif wrote:
I'd point out that the OP's desire for folks to buy the figs and minis that a game creates is pretty much confined to the sci-fantasy realm of gaming. Almost no one on the historical side is whining about how Flames of war gamers aren't buying FoW brand vehicles or how Bolt Action gamers are using other brands of miniatures. Historical gamers never bought into the aritificial -and frankly silly- idea that you have to buy the figs, rules and background from the same manufacturere.


This is a very important point. It can take a lot of effort for gamers used to the sci-fi/fantasy game model of buying the miniatures and rules together to break out of that cycle. Now admittedly there are a lot of reasons to buy a manufacturer's miniatures when you buy their rules. The biggest one I can think of is convenience, I'm not accusing gamers of being lazy but it's definitely a lot easier to buy the "official" miniatures rather than scouring the ranges of multiple miniature companies for what you want. Another important reason is simply liking that manufacturer's miniatures, that could be because they're easy to paint, cheaper than equivalents (something of a rarity that one), made to a higher quality or finding them to be the most visually pleasing. The final important reason I can think of is being blunt, ignorance. There seem to be a lot of people who simply don't know that alternative options exist.

However looking at this positively, these days there are a lot of independent rule writers and miniature manufacturers producing really high quality sci-fi and fantasy products for the gamer who is willing to step out side of the bubble of one source for everything. I for one will continue to support these companies over the one's who try to insist on their customers using only their rules and their miniatures as I feel that approach stifles creativity, where as being able to mix and match from multiple sources encourages it.

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Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




Hiding behind terrain

I probably count as cheap in alot of peoples eyes.

I was priced out of GW by their price increases. Sure. I could pay the $265 or whatever it is these days for sets but I wont. I started the hobby with the Deagostini LOTR magazines that me and my cousins were getting. These gave me a decent selection of LOTR metals and army sprues that were cheaper than what GW sold the minis for. Back then I picked up the Return of the Kings set with a full size book in it for something like $85.

When I started 40k, Macragge was around that price too and had the large crashed lander terrain pieces which are a sizeable amount of plastic. I forgot what I paid for my 2 Blackreach sets but when I got to 6th edition, I was already sick of the prices when I put down $165 for dark vengeance and $85 for the 6th Dark Angels codex. Codex alone costing what whole boxesets used to... Bought a finecrap Belial and that was the end of my GW days.


Spent a heap on Infinity, X-wing and a mixture of sources for minis for Frostgrave since. And also on terrain too which wouldnt have been in the budget!

So am I cheap? Probably but Ive found a better enjoyment to dollar ratio. And thats what matters to me more than if my shopping elsewhere hurts the over-entitled companies gouging me.
   
 
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