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 Red_Five wrote:
When 9th rolls around, expect any Index only units to be eliminated from the game.

I expect them to get line-itemed in CA 2018 or 2019.

 Primark G wrote:
Let’s look at 7th edition... bandaid fix to 6th edition...

Not at all. 7th was a botched job that added nothing but problems to the 6th edition ruleset.

I agree with the OP. I think his complaint is a pretty valid one.

I don’t really have an issue with the way they’re approaching things with regard to the *number* of books, per se, but I’d personally prefer smaller, softback books – a hardback seems really unnecessary for something that, by design, has a limited lifespan, and it’s a pain to lug around an extraneous 170-odd pages of nonsense just so you have access to the Core rules, missions, etc. Haven’t given any of the new Codices a close look yet, but would I be right in thinking they suffer the same problem?

Ultimately, though, you can dislike GW’s approach, but if you keep buying the books, you’re ultimately just encouraging them to carry on the way they’re currently going.

 Infantryman wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
GW is trying to nickle and dime us to death, except that the nickles are $25 and the dimes are $50.

You act like they're vast sums of money, though. They're not.

M.

Um what? We can't all be professional lottery winners like yourself, unless you can tell me where to apply.

Ruin wrote:

 Infantryman wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
GW is trying to nickle and dime us to death, except that the nickles are $25 and the dimes are $50.

You act like they're vast sums of money, though. They're not.

M.

Um what? We can't all be professional lottery winners like yourself, unless you can tell me where to apply.

Its called good life choices and hard work.

It's pretty irritatingly to read people's comments along the lines of "you're wrong to think it's too much money". And then when people such as the good Galas above get so highhanded and up himself I feel queasy it is just the cherry on top. Yes even £30 is quite a bit to some people never mind multiple purchases at that price or more.

So take your "good life choices and hard work" and take a running jump

Actually, no. I'm not the kind of people that can go and spend 100€ in miniatures a week just because he feels like it.
I am very aware of how I spend my money. But theres some people that just has the money and has no problems spending it. And it doesn't is reduced to "Oh you are rich because you were lucky".
Some people has worked hard to be able to do that, and they deserve that their opinions are not discredited based on fallacies and generalizations.
I have always complained about GW prices. Thats why I have never buy directly from them, most from 3rd partys or Ebay. But I can accept that for some people those prices are just fine. And as this is a hobby product and non-vital, they aren't totally wrong.

I wonder if an adventurer's league style limitation would help: " In matched play you can only select units from up to 2 scources."

So you could have space marines but then you would have to choose between adding AM bodies or FW fire raptors for instance.

Earth127 wrote:
I wonder if an adventurer's league style limitation would help: " In matched play you can only select units from up to 2 scources."

So you could have space marines but then you would have to choose between adding AM bodies or FW fire raptors for instance.

My inquisition would absolutely love that.

After all, you get your book for acolytes and inquisitors. Then you get your book (Imperial Armor Index 1: Forces of the Adeptus Astartes) for your Inquisitorial Land Raider Prometheus, then codex AM for your Inquisitorial Chimeras and Valkyries and general support, and then you get the Adeptus Astartes book for rhinos, and then you take stuff from Deathwatch because you are Ordo Xenos and then you bring an Ordo Malleus Inquisitor and his Grey Knights because you are running a conclave list.

That is only two books right?

Earth127 wrote:
I wonder if an adventurer's league style limitation would help: " In matched play you can only select units from up to 2 scources."

So you could have space marines but then you would have to choose between adding AM bodies or FW fire raptors for instance.

It would not. The issue is not powergaming (though that can be an issue), the issue is requiring too many sources for basic lists.

The OP needs four sources for a basic list-admittedly, one is the BRB, which would obviously not be counted. But still, three sources for a basic list.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Earth127 wrote:
I wonder if an adventurer's league style limitation would help: " In matched play you can only select units from up to 2 scources."

So you could have space marines but then you would have to choose between adding AM bodies or FW fire raptors for instance.

It would not. The issue is not powergaming (though that can be an issue), the issue is requiring too many sources for basic lists.

The OP needs four sources for a basic list-admittedly, one is the BRB, which would obviously not be counted. But still, three sources for a basic list.

One of which isn't actually required, since the Index Imperium 1 FAQ does not tell you to refer to Codex: Space Marines for Wolf Lords.

It's pretty irritatingly to read people's comments along the lines of "you're wrong to think it's too much money". And then when people such as the good Galas above get so highhanded and up himself I feel queasy it is just the cherry on top. Yes even £30 is quite a bit to some people never mind multiple purchases at that price or more.

So take your "good life choices and hard work" and take a running jump

Careful now, you'll draw out the "well its just a hobby, if you cant afford it, dont play it. Just like the type of console/PC you buy" brigade

 Kanluwen wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Earth127 wrote:
I wonder if an adventurer's league style limitation would help: " In matched play you can only select units from up to 2 scources."

So you could have space marines but then you would have to choose between adding AM bodies or FW fire raptors for instance.

It would not. The issue is not powergaming (though that can be an issue), the issue is requiring too many sources for basic lists.

The OP needs four sources for a basic list-admittedly, one is the BRB, which would obviously not be counted. But still, three sources for a basic list.

One of which isn't actually required, since the Index Imperium 1 FAQ does not tell you to refer to Codex: Space Marines for Wolf Lords.

It tells you to use the datasheet for Captain, the most updated of which is in Codex: Space Marines.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Earth127 wrote:
I wonder if an adventurer's league style limitation would help: " In matched play you can only select units from up to 2 scources."

So you could have space marines but then you would have to choose between adding AM bodies or FW fire raptors for instance.

It would not. The issue is not powergaming (though that can be an issue), the issue is requiring too many sources for basic lists.

The OP needs four sources for a basic list-admittedly, one is the BRB, which would obviously not be counted. But still, three sources for a basic list.

One of which isn't actually required, since the Index Imperium 1 FAQ does not tell you to refer to Codex: Space Marines for Wolf Lords.

It tells you to use the datasheet for Captain, the most updated of which is in Codex: Space Marines.

And the Index FAQ does not tell you to do so. I did a "Find" on Wolf Lord and Captain in the FAQ and did not see anything telling Space Wolf players, Dark Angels players, or Blood Angels players to go get the Space Marines book and use that datasheet.

See here: https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/warhammer_40000_designers_commentary_en-1.pdf

 JNAProductions wrote:
See here: https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/warhammer_40000_designers_commentary_en-1.pdf

Do a "Find" on Wolf Lord.

I'll wait. Nowhere in any of these documents does it tell you "Because the Wolf Lord uses the Space Marine Captain datasheet, go buy the Space Marine book and use that datasheet."

 Kanluwen wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
See here: https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/warhammer_40000_designers_commentary_en-1.pdf

Do a "Find" on Wolf Lord.

I'll wait. Nowhere in any of these documents does it tell you "Because the Wolf Lord uses the Space Marine Captain datasheet, go buy the Space Marine book and use that datasheet."

So, because it doesn't EXPLICITLY tell you to use Captain of Codex for Wolf Lord, you don't?

Because it's a pretty easy process. You're told to reference the Captain datasheet. The flowchart indicates that you would use the Index datasheet ONLY if there's no Codex datasheet. There's a Captain datasheet in Codex: Space Marines.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
See here: https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/warhammer_40000_designers_commentary_en-1.pdf

Do a "Find" on Wolf Lord.

I'll wait. Nowhere in any of these documents does it tell you "Because the Wolf Lord uses the Space Marine Captain datasheet, go buy the Space Marine book and use that datasheet."

So, because it doesn't EXPLICITLY tell you to use Captain of Codex for Wolf Lord, you don't?

Because it's a pretty easy process. You're told to reference the Captain datasheet. The flowchart indicates that you would use the Index datasheet ONLY if there's no Codex datasheet. There's a Captain datasheet in Codex: Space Marines.

I'll repeat this since you didn't read it:

If I have a Blood Angels, Dark Angels or Space Wolves army, will I need to buy Codex: Space Marines to use my army?
You don’t have to. Other Space Marines factions not covered in the new codex will continue to use all the datasheets, rules and points values in the index until their own codex is released. Rules for new models not covered in the index (like the upcoming Redemptor Dreadnought) will be available in the box with the model and matched play points for these units will be made available online.

To be fair, Scott, reading is hard.

YES. You need the rules to play your models in a game. Those models may be confined to one codex. Or multiple books. Don't like it? Leave.

 Hollow wrote:
YES. You need the rules to play your models in a game. Those models may be confined to one codex. Or multiple books. Don't like it? Leave.

That attitude led to a decade of decline for Gw.

hobojebus wrote:

 Hollow wrote:
YES. You need the rules to play your models in a game. Those models may be confined to one codex. Or multiple books. Don't like it? Leave.

That attitude led to a decade of decline for Gw.

I agree, but only to a certain extent. For example - With the amount of supplements and whatnot that were released at the end of 7th Edition, the OP (Kriswall) has a point. The amount of of books you had to buy to keep up with any given army was ridiculous, which was made even worse if you had more than one army. But with regards to 8th Edition? Hallow has more of a point and Kriswall's opinion on the books begins to fall by the wayside. So let's take a few examples:

Let's take a Vanilla Space Marine Player:

-- Rulebook
-- Codex
-- Chapter Approved

You could also say they needed to purchase the Index, but given how soon after the Rulebook the Codex came out, it is definitely not unreasonable for people to have done what I did which was simply wait for the Codex (thus bypassing the need to buy the Index).

Let's now take the Non-Vanilla Space Marine Player. I reject Kriswall's premise that you need to buy the Codex simply because you need the most up-to-date versions of a specific set of profiles such as the Captain. For play in tournaments and the like, I'm sure you could consult the internet, an Open Copy of the Codex at your FLGS, or some other source like Battlescribe (all of which are free) for the units in the Codex (e.g. the most recent version of the Captain's profile) that you may have to use. It may take a bit more effort compared to having the Codex in front of you, but it is certainly cheaper. So how is this solution not better than unnecessarily spending money on the Space Marine Codex?

As for having to buy the Index in the first place: If you play a decent amount of games (i.e. get solid use out of the book) before the Space Wolves Codex comes out, then hasn't the Index paid for itself by the time it becomes (effectively) redundant? I know that if I were in Kriswall's position, I would certainly not genuinely complain about ever having to buy the Index. I have one close friend who plays Space Wolves and another who plays Dark Angels, neither of whom have their army's Codex yet and neither of whom have ever genuinely complained about buying the Index in the mean time. So why is Kriswall?

I also reject the idea that he will need to keep the Codex Space Marines and the Index once the Space Wolves Codex comes out. Why? No Vanilla Space Marine player I know of has ever needed to go back to the Index after the release of the Codex, so why would Space Wolves players?

The only way that the attitude expressed in Hollow's post is bad is if GW decides to do what they did with 7th which is - after every Codex is released - then go on to release unnecessary supplement after unnecessary supplement.

As a casual player, the stream of books isn't ideal.

I use my 30k World Eater force in games for 40k. So I went ahead and picked up the chaos index and the new rulebook & datcards.

I then picked up the new CSM codex & CSM datcards.

I now need to buy Chapter approved.

It's a bit of a pain for a game that I play twice a month maybe.

Core rules are free. You can download the PDF on their website.

Buying a 60$ book for subpar missions and terrain rules no one bothers with anyway is on you.

Thoughts? Is this sort of nonsense going to continue?

Seems like. The main driving force behind this nonsense is money.
In the 7th ed they carried it to the extremes with all those supplement books.

All this talk about books and stuff to buy when all you need is the internet, battlescribe, and a half decent memory.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I do, however, usually buy the digital codex for my army. There's literally no need to ever buy the rulebook though in this edition. All of the core rules are for free, and you can find all the other missions and stuff online in about two seconds.

 Stus67 wrote:
All this talk about books and stuff to buy when all you need is the internet, battlescribe, and a half decent memory.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I do, however, usually buy the digital codex for my army. There's literally no need to ever buy the rulebook though in this edition. All of the core rules are for free, and you can find all the other missions and stuff online in about two seconds.

Battlescribe is how we get crap like the Atlanta Guard army.

Personally, I won't play anyone who doesn't have their book or a digital copy of it.

*edit* Didn't realize there was more than one pages. Sorry.

**edit**

I had to stop after reading page 2. I can't believe the people complaining about being "forced" to do this or that. You have a choice. Nobody is being forced. If you think you are being forced, you are free and nobody is forcing you to stay. Maybe it's time to pick up a new game, take a break or breather or quit.

GW and nobody else is making you do nothing you don't want to do.

Davor

 JNAProductions wrote:
I agree with the OP. I think his complaint is a pretty valid one.

As do I. I'm already trimming down most likely to a few Shadow War Armageddon forces.
If my son really wants to play and has time soon, I may keep a small army.

really tired of what they seem to be doing, and perhaps it's just not the game for me anymore. I thought this edition was going to be a bit better about the topic.

My group and I play so many systems it's not like we'll be twiddling our thumbs without it.

 Shrapnelsmile wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
I agree with the OP. I think his complaint is a pretty valid one.

As do I. I'm already trimming down most likely to a few Shadow War Armageddon forces.
If my son really wants to play and has time soon, I may keep a small army.

really tired of what they seem to be doing, and perhaps it's just not the game for me anymore. I thought this edition was going to be a bit better about the topic.

My group and I play so many systems it's not like we'll be twiddling our thumbs without it.

pretty much already done that, got rid of everything but a primaris army i am painting for someone else. 8th as a whole has been a real killer for me of any interest and the new direction of gw games may be good for others, I am not at all impressed. The more I play other companies games the less I miss gw. I will still play 30k until it finally dries up.