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I expect to see the old marines phased out. I agree with most everyone else that I prefer the simplicity of tactical marines, assault marines, and terminators to silly things like a unit of skull-faced marines (that's somehow supposed to be more terrifying than, for example, daemons) or those fat marines that look like they're flying around in invisible recliners. Still, I don't mind the Primaris too much.

I'm much more concerned about the vehicles. What's going to happen to the land raider, the rhino, the razorback, or land speeders? I don't want to lose the iconic space marine vehicles in the transition to "true scale" marines.

Really, IMO the smartest move long-term would have been to release the primaris guys as the new marine models with the standard marine options, rather than creating new marine units. Then players who felt the urge could replace their models with the truescale marines. They'd play the same, so people's gaming wouldn't have to change but it would be a way to update an otherwise un-updateable range. Instead, they created a fluff abomination and yet another SM unit that really isn't necessary for the army to function.

 Infantryman wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
HH is only game GW has left that has rules of any value.

Is it very different? I took a look at a few models (the Guard equiv is awful looking...) and had assumed it was some earlier edition fork just running off of those rules (with profiles for that era's troops).

It's locked into 7th edition. Weirdly, all the 40k guys state that 7th was the worse of the editions, while the HH guys state it was the best.

Personally, I'm avoiding HH until it gets a more modern ruleset but at least it's given a place for the older gamers to retire to instead of spamming the boards.

9th edition will remove old marine models and rules. It will be stated that all old marines have died, all the special dudes converted and that all marines are now made with Chad Tekyology. GW will make an official statement to use your old tactical marines as counts-as primaris until you can buy new models.




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 ChargerIIC wrote:

 Infantryman wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
HH is only game GW has left that has rules of any value.

Is it very different? I took a look at a few models (the Guard equiv is awful looking...) and had assumed it was some earlier edition fork just running off of those rules (with profiles for that era's troops).

It's locked into 7th edition. Weirdly, all the 40k guys state that 7th was the worse of the editions, while the HH guys state it was the best.

Personally, I'm avoiding HH until it gets a more modern ruleset but at least it's given a place for the older gamers to retire to instead of spamming the boards.

There is already an 8th edition conversion on Dakka.

HH is almost completely about Space Marines. Of course it is much more balanced, regardless of the exact rule set, when everyone is using basically the same army.

Nvs wrote:
IMO, if GW is going to phase out old marines it will likely also mean they're going to phase out support of the various founding chapters as well. I really doubt the players are going to tolerate release after release being nothing but a Primaris Marine in a robe, then a Primaris Marine in a pelt, then a Primaris Marine with a jet packs and melee weapons.

I think it's more likely we're going to see an end to Primaris Marines. They'll likely get a codex of their own along the same lines of Deathwatch and maybe another unit and vehicle but that's it.

Wut.

All of this is the literal opposite of what's going to happen! Blows my mind that people might think this is true.

There isn't even any doubt that Primaris Marines are the new space marine. There will never be a new standard SM kit released again, outside Forge World and Heresy-focused releases.


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 ChargerIIC wrote:


It's locked into 7th edition. Weirdly, all the 40k guys state that 7th was the worse of the editions, while the HH guys state it was the best.

Not by design, but by circumstance. The main 30k designer had a strong plan to move HH to 8th, but sadly died - and the move to 8th did too.

Quote from the Reddit AMA in case you haven't seen it:

Alan had some big ideas for moving Age of Darkness into 8th edition, but sadly, he passed away earlier this year. Really sorry if this is the first you've heard of it. It hit us all rather hard, as you can imagine. He went off sick while the team was rushing to get all the Index books done for Forge World stuff in 40k, and it was already an ungodly quantity of work while he was there; the deadlines were just unrealistic, but there were demands from on high that all 40k FW stuff should have rules available for the day of release. Alan was an absolute writing machine, easily capable of doing the work of two or three regular humans, but with him not around things got very difficult indeed. The decision was made to focus on getting the Index books done, keep Age of Darkness as it was, and maybe revisit the idea later.

brettdavis1991 wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
I really hope not. Big marines and the new superheroes are IMHO the worst looking models released in ages.

It's funny that seems to be a common sentiment, at least here on dakka. I have to disagree though, I think the larger scale makes them look much better and more realistic. If you took those same stylish models from those chapters and made them bigger they would look even better IMO.

Agreed. I prefer the look of the Primaris. Their weapons actually look frighting and their imposing stature on the table makes them a very, very nice looking army. They also happen to be some of the most fun kits I've ever built! Reivers are sick!


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 Silentz wrote:

Nvs wrote:
IMO, if GW is going to phase out old marines it will likely also mean they're going to phase out support of the various founding chapters as well. I really doubt the players are going to tolerate release after release being nothing but a Primaris Marine in a robe, then a Primaris Marine in a pelt, then a Primaris Marine with a jet packs and melee weapons.

I think it's more likely we're going to see an end to Primaris Marines. They'll likely get a codex of their own along the same lines of Deathwatch and maybe another unit and vehicle but that's it.

Wut.

All of this is the literal opposite of what's going to happen! Blows my mind that people might think this is true.

There isn't even any doubt that Primaris Marines are the new space marine. There will never be a new standard SM kit released again, outside Forge World and Heresy-focused releases.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ChargerIIC wrote:


It's locked into 7th edition. Weirdly, all the 40k guys state that 7th was the worse of the editions, while the HH guys state it was the best.

Not by design, but by circumstance. The main 30k designer had a strong plan to move HH to 8th, but sadly died - and the move to 8th did too.

Quote from the Reddit AMA in case you haven't seen it:

Alan had some big ideas for moving Age of Darkness into 8th edition, but sadly, he passed away earlier this year. Really sorry if this is the first you've heard of it. It hit us all rather hard, as you can imagine. He went off sick while the team was rushing to get all the Index books done for Forge World stuff in 40k, and it was already an ungodly quantity of work while he was there; the deadlines were just unrealistic, but there were demands from on high that all 40k FW stuff should have rules available for the day of release. Alan was an absolute writing machine, easily capable of doing the work of two or three regular humans, but with him not around things got very difficult indeed. The decision was made to focus on getting the Index books done, keep Age of Darkness as it was, and maybe revisit the idea later.

Do you have a link to that AMA?

Of course: https://www.reddit.com/r/Warhammer/comments/7k1tp0/im_james_m_hewitt_freelance_tabletop_games/

 Silentz wrote:


There isn't even any doubt that Primaris Marines are the new space marine. There will never be a new standard SM kit released again, outside Forge World and Heresy-focused releases.

I'm ok with that, but I hope GW still includes them in the future editions.

Ork buggies have more than 20 years and they're still on the webstore and the codex, sisters didn't received updates since decades and they still have a codex with units represented by metal models.

I don't even want new SM kits, just let players that have the models use them.

I think it's got to be GW long game plan to ultimately replace mini-marines with Primaris marines. Every single bit of artwork in ALL the new marine codex's so far is only Primaris, as well as new releases.

Well, the tiny marines were phased out.

You know, those before the current plastics, which were uglier and smaller.

A bit like the current marines are uglier and smaller than the new marines, which should be every "true scale" fan's wet dreams.

I'm guessing small marines will be phased out just like tiny marines, when proper scale marines become the main source of revenue.

I suspect the MkIV "Betrayal at Calth" 30k marines will stay in production, but that the common and older line of MkVII power armour marines eventually will go out of production.

The MkIV line is only about 2 years old, the proportions are nearly flawless and it's the most elaborate and finely detailed plastic kit I've ever purchased from GW.

In terms of design, there's a strong resemblance between the MkIV and the Primaris armour, which should make them easy to combine.

One outcome might be that GW phases out the "contemporary" MkVII armour SMs, in favour of MkIV, which is then left in production, replacing MkVII tactical SMs.

I wouldn't be suprised in the slightest, they're much better looking model, if anything.

If we ever see an actual Primaris Terminator (not Aggressors, models that use the aesthetic of Terminators), then we will know for sure that old scale's days are numbered.

I can't see them ditching the iconic Terminator look, but they'll need to upscale them if they ever plan to make Primaris the only Marines.

I really want Primaris Terminators.

morgoth wrote:
Well, the tiny marines were phased out.

You know, those before the current plastics, which were uglier and smaller.

A bit like the current marines are uglier and smaller than the new marines, which should be every "true scale" fan's wet dreams.

I'm guessing small marines will be phased out just like tiny marines, when proper scale marines become the main source of revenue.

But the current marines replacing tiny ones is a different thing. Those tiny models were the ancient version, the new one is the same unit with more modern miniatures. Primaris stuff are other units and other characters, they're different stuff. That's why I think it will be absurd to delete the old stuff, primaris are the newest version of older miniatures, they're a new thing.

True scale fans are just a small part of the SM fan, I've never even met one in my life.

 Blackie wrote:
But the current marines replacing tiny ones is a different thing. Those tiny models were the ancient version, the new one is the same unit with more modern miniatures. Primaris stuff are other units and other characters, they're different stuff. That's why I think it will be absurd to delete the old stuff, primaris are the newest version of older miniatures, they're a new thing.

True scale fans are just a small part of the SM fan, I've never even met one in my life.

Well, kinda. They chose to handle the fluff and rules awkwardly this time, but ultimately a marine with a bolter and a slightly bigger marine with bolt rifle are basically the same thing.

Besides, even from the fluff stand point it will not make sense for the old marines to stay. People wanted the timeline to progress (I always thought it was a bad idea) and now that's happening. Even if the stuff about being able to upgrade old marines to primaris was not true, the chapters have had the ability to make primaris marines for over a century now. And just like GW, they won't make inferior product any more when a superior replacement is available. When the timeline moves further, the old marines will literally die out.

I agree... if we see primaris azrael, primaris dante, primaris logan, and primaris terminators, an abaddon that isn't a dwarf, well then I'll concede that the old kits are being phased out.

They have too much stock in the small kits, across many lines, da, ba, sw, gk, sm, dw, chaos, etc... Not to mention primaris armies are not competative, and at large tournaments the competative lists run mainly small marines with one or two specialized units of primaris (reavers, plasma dudes, etc).

I doubt our marines are going anywhere anytime soon. It took 30 years for our marines to evolve slightly larger (grey knights, deathwatch) and on 32mm bases for goodness sake

I would have to say they'll quit selling original marines when they aren't being bought. I don't see them hard cutting off a line that's profitable. I've still seen people buying original marines. It might be they like the mixed squads or the general weapon styles, they want to play any era before the 42nd, or just prefer the looks of the oldschool marines.

If we ever get to the point they're selling like old fantasy did, then we'll see them killed off.

 ChargerIIC wrote:

 Infantryman wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
HH is only game GW has left that has rules of any value.

Is it very different? I took a look at a few models (the Guard equiv is awful looking...) and had assumed it was some earlier edition fork just running off of those rules (with profiles for that era's troops).

It's locked into 7th edition. Weirdly, all the 40k guys state that 7th was the worse of the editions, while the HH guys state it was the best.

Personally, I'm avoiding HH until it gets a more modern ruleset but at least it's given a place for the older gamers to retire to instead of spamming the boards.

I've honestly never seen anybody playing HH say 7th was the best, only that it's better FOR HH than 8th is.

7th was a mess, everybody I think accepts that, but when you only have to balance Legions and some far less popular off-shoots (Army, Mechanicum, Knights) as well as cutting out Formations, it does work a lot better when it comes to depth. I think 8th's strength comes from it's diversity of armies, each having their individual special rules and such, so there's always a twist or several there to keep you on edge.

If you bring the Legions over to 8th however, it's simplicity really starts to show and in a detrimental way rather than the 'simpler and quicker' way it does with 40k's vast swathe of armies. Legions aren't SO different they can sustain a game as simple as 8th being anything more exciting than 'ram my dudes into the middle of the board and chuck dice'. 7th isn't exactly an exercise in West Point tactics and strategy either, but it facilitates 30k better in that way.

GW's Modus Operandi for the last twenty years at LEAST has been all about trying to get you to buy your army all over again, so phasing out Marines for Primaris only makes sense.

Production capacity issues might force their hand earlier than intended. Make some more Baneblades and Exocrines and make fewer Tactical Squads and Devastators. That could sort the OOS woes and obsolete the Marine in one!

"But the Marines have all sold out!"
<store employee pops up>
"Have your tried new biggerer PRIMARIS MARINES?!? They're NEW, biggerer, and (crucially) in stock!"
"Ummm..."

 Infantryman wrote:

That's...pretty bad looking.

Yeah, the Inceptors is perhaps the stupidest looking kit GW has released in last 10 years (and there's competition), particularly the Heavy Bolter version. I mean, those stupid little shields..were they thinking ANYTHING? At all?
Primaris Aggressors are nearly as awful.

Basic Primaris Marines don't look bad, but nearly all their other models of their range do, including their flying tank.

Backfire wrote:

 Infantryman wrote:

That's...pretty bad looking.

Yeah, the Inceptors is perhaps the stupidest looking kit GW has released in last 10 years (and there's competition), particularly the Heavy Bolter version. I mean, those stupid little shields..were they thinking ANYTHING? At all?
Primaris Aggressors are nearly as awful.

Basic Primaris Marines don't look bad, but nearly all their other models of their range do, including their flying tank.

Is the classic marine range really better?

At least Primaris have the right size on the tabletop, and many of their miniatures are arguably badass-looking, if sometimes comically so.

The Inceptors are a good example - they're largely turned to eleven, but at least they're flying (with a horrible system though) and they're big and strong.

Backfire wrote:

 Infantryman wrote:

That's...pretty bad looking.

Yeah, the Inceptors is perhaps the stupidest looking kit GW has released in last 10 years (and there's competition), particularly the Heavy Bolter version. I mean, those stupid little shields..were they thinking ANYTHING? At all?
Primaris Aggressors are nearly as awful.

Basic Primaris Marines don't look bad, but nearly all their other models of their range do, including their flying tank.

I still think this is pretty subjective, you have to be careful of whether you've been in a bit of an echo chamber.

I really like Inceptors especially Heavy Bolters, though the poses from the Dark Imperium set are significantly better than the poses in the full kit. And when I saw Aggressors I knew I needed them on launch.

If you don't like them that's cool, I respect that they aren't going to be everyone's cup of tea. But let's not be hyperbolic here, they are not objectively bad models.

morgoth wrote:

Backfire wrote:

 Infantryman wrote:

That's...pretty bad looking.

Yeah, the Inceptors is perhaps the stupidest looking kit GW has released in last 10 years (and there's competition), particularly the Heavy Bolter version. I mean, those stupid little shields..were they thinking ANYTHING? At all?
Primaris Aggressors are nearly as awful.

Basic Primaris Marines don't look bad, but nearly all their other models of their range do, including their flying tank.

Is the classic marine range really better?

At least Primaris have the right size on the tabletop, and many of their miniatures are arguably badass-looking, if sometimes comically so.

The Inceptors are a good example - they're largely turned to eleven, but at least they're flying (with a horrible system though) and they're big and strong.

I'd argue the "right size on the tabletop" thing. I still think they look comically huge compared to other troop size models. Even if they are realistically scaled, it's a different aesthetic choice, putting them at odds with many other models.

Is GW pushing to a new proportional standard, away from "heroic scale"? I don't think it's a bad move, but the mix of models is wierd.

 455_PWR wrote:
I agree... if we see primaris azrael, primaris dante, primaris logan, and primaris terminators, an abaddon that isn't a dwarf, well then I'll concede that the old kits are being phased out.

They made a whole new line of Chaos Marines (that so far have no reasons to be bigger) primaris-sized.

What else do you need? A signed letter with sealing wax from Mr. Rountree?

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Production capacity issues might force their hand earlier than intended. Make some more Baneblades and Exocrines and make fewer Tactical Squads and Devastators. That could sort the OOS woes and obsolete the Marine in one!

"But the Marines have all sold out!"
<store employee pops up>
"Have your tried new biggerer PRIMARIS MARINES?!? They're NEW, biggerer, and (crucially) in stock!"
"Ummm..."

That's what GW has been doing with Sisters since the dawn of time!

All the fluff written for every SM Chapter has been: nearly wiped out, Guilliman saves the day, the depleted chapter is now reinforced by Primaris. Every one of them.

So much fear mongering goes on in these type of threads

No one knows for sure what GW going to do with short marines. But what we do know is they want you to re-buy your army as often as they canget away with it and they also want to change every name to something they can copy right. So yes old marines days are probably numbered but I don’t think they are dumb enough to do it anytime soon the backlash would be huge. Not everyone including myself going to trash their old models that they have spent thousands of dollars on and many hours painting just to re-buy The army. It will be many years down the road after most people have had time to collect the new models I can see them saying the old marines that have matching war gear count as primaris.

But like I said no one knows for sure all this is my expert opinion like all the others before me in this post but GW stand to lose a lot of customers if they just try to scrap the old line(and some of it not that old) and I think they are aware of this.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
All the fluff written for every SM Chapter has been: nearly wiped out, Guilliman saves the day, the depleted chapter is now reinforced by Primaris. Every one of them.

Ultramarines--Still good.
Raven Guard--Still good.
Dark Angels--Still good.
Blood Angels--This is true.
Space Wolves--We have to wait and see precisely how this works.
Iron Hands--Still good.
Salamanders--Still good.
White Scars--Still good.
Imperial Fists--Seemingly still good.
Crimson Fists--Not so great. But they weren't doing so well even before now.
Black Templars--Seem to be getting reinforced by Primaris but not replaced.

So what if they're being "reinforced by Primaris"? There's whole Primaris Chapters being added as well. Rift Stalkers, Hammers of Dorn, etc. Be concerned when those guys get into the forefront.