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I haven't really scrutinized the models but I think they look pretty good. They are more proportional and it's probably easier to scale up marines than scale down things like guardsmen at this point. The long bolt rifle is also pretty sweet looking.

I don't think they have much of anything tied in which can't be swept aside in 5 years time. The only major hurtle, and one they run into frequently with all new generations of the games - old characters.

Admittedly our storyline has plunged ahead a bunch in the latest Dark Imperium setting - how are Imperial Guard characters still around? Even with age-treatments...it's just become a bit of willing suspension of disbelief.

At some point, GW will need to either cull the existing special characters which have been around for 10-25 years...or they need to find a way to Primarize them. Imagine the outrage if Mephiston disappeared from the Blood Angels codex, etc.

"If" you see new "basic" marines, I suspect they will be characters only. It's very possible the characters will live on, or we'll see a slow creep at assassinating them in various campaign books moving forward. Admittedly your games can take place anywhere on the GW timeline so it'd be fine to justify keeping the codex entries around for a while.

 Infantryman wrote:
I haven't really scrutinized the models but I think they look pretty good. They are more proportional and it's probably easier to scale up marines than scale down things like guardsmen at this point. The long bolt rifle is also pretty sweet looking.

I would be curious to see assault marines, devastators etc in primaris size. Can the FW shoulders be fit on the models? Are the heads too small? I think they need more legion specific stuff.

I just hope that the Gravis is not the only heavy armor. Terminators are too iconic. On this note, how big are the Blightlords for the Death Guard compared to the loyalist termies, especially the later models? This could be possibly an indication of things to come (better to do not take the Deathshrouds in account, they are awesome but purportedly bloated).

I am not a huge fan of the most "modern" almost "tau-like" stuff like inceptors, but as an example, the Aggressors are what centurions should have been.
But still, overall "too clean". But can be improved.

They had got to a point where they were apparently unwilling to make non snowflake Chapter marines.

So no new Raven Guard or White Scar or Salamanders models, we just got more and more flanderised Angels and Wolves. Without Primaris and the inevitable versions of these for the special needs chapters it would only have got worse.

Forgeworld will keep on going with the HH models and likely some of the basic marines will drift into their sphere.

I think the actual models are not bad - they are defiantly better than abominations like the Centurions. The vehicle issue is annoying - the repulsor is fine as a concept but is just too many guns for me - same as recent Tau machines.

Hopefully they will come out with the Speeder, Rhino and Land Raider Primaris upgrade as it would be a shame to loose such iconic models fro Marines - although I guess these could just end up being the vehicles that Sisters (both types), Custodes, Arbites, Mechanicus etc use rather than Small Marines.

To be honest, the Primaris are "Too clean" because GW wanted to make the first kits "vanilla".

And I agree with them. Imagine that the first Primaris kits where already as blinged as the last kits for Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Space Wolves. If your basic Primaris Blood Angel has already nipple armour... how are gonna be the "elite" and latter parimaris units? Thats how we end with Wulfen and Sanguinary guard.
GW has showed some restrain with Primaris, after years of people complaining that the latest releases where too "excesive". That gives them room to create more decorated primaris kits in the future.
Primaris Intercessors don't look more clean that basic Tactical Squads.

Instead of calling them True Scale marines and just saying "hey this is the new design proportions for space marines going forward but there is nothing wrong with using the smaller marines" they came up with some gak filled BS about Cawl "improving" upon Big E's design and all that other heretical noise. Now instead of letting them scale up in size like they did with Terminators, they split the model line in two and took a dump all over the fluff. GW will try to phase out the smaller marines but just like 8th edition they are going to find out the hard way that the foundation for this change was poorly thought out and will start to crumble when they try to build upon it.

I’m in the camp that I believe we’ll see Primaris replace the old marine models completely.

We have seen range changes before, from the restyled Tyranids, redone Land Riaders, Land Speeders, Dreadnoughts and Rhinos to the shift from beakies to Mark VII marines.

Even being in video games won’t save the imagery - go back and look at how Necrons were depicted in Dawn of War, or even the likes of the terminators from the original Space Hulk. The asthetics haven’t been and won’t be locked and would just change with the next game release whenever GW wants to push the new look and discard the old.

The new Blood Angels Codex is definitely trying hard to push the Primaris marines, with them being front-and-centre in the images and unit descriptions. All signs are pointing towards GW wanting to make Primaris the main units for Space Marines.

The problem they may have is that Primaris armies just aren't that great. In the current meta having 2W isn't much of an advantage given how prevalent plasma is. The models are OK but, IMO and in the opinion of a lot of the players in my group, they're a bit boring on the table. Combined with the sheer inertia that regular marines have by virtue of being the most popular models in 40k by far, I'm not sure how successful GW will be with their attempts to replace them.

Ultimatly, I think its the plan. They will slowly erase the Space Marines until there is only Primaris Marines, but it will take years. In the same vein, I think Eldars and Dark Eldars will be merged into a single force.

Space Marines and Primaris Marines are basically redundant. They were created to give to Marines fan the true scale Space Marines they were widely asking for, but GW needed an explanation for the size difference which is a bit too large and widespayed to be handwaved away. Marine players were also complaining that Space Marines weren't powerful enough. The new models gave them an excuse to boost their bolters and give them more durability in with one extra life. It's possible that with time, the Primaris fluff will change to make them feel more like just a new founding with better equipment than an entirely new breed of Space Marines as a way to make the shift more seemless, but that will be in almost 10 years I would say.

epronovost wrote:
Ultimatly, I think its the plan. They will slowly erase the Space Marines until there is only Primaris Marines, but it will take years. In the same vein, I think Eldars and Dark Eldars will be merged into a single force.

I think that that is just Kelly furiously spanking to that new Ynead insanity, where he can put his Super Special Sue Princess on top.
The Eldar armies will stay continuous but separated. I am positive about that.

I think they will eventually release Primaris versions of tactical and assault marines. Then they'll start phasing out those models. For all the talk of a riot, most SM players will be ok with it so long as they can still field their tacticals as Primaris in the future. They really only care if they can still field their old models.

Not sure why they'd phase out old marines. Primaris ones aren't very flexible, and the second wound is nice but not all that. Also given that there aren't any good transport options for less than 300pts that limits them quite a bit too. Also, you can't take flamers, plasma guns, hvy weapons, or even better CCW for them so that also reduces their utility. If you want a pile of guys to soak up hits you're better off with Scouts for the points, who can then customize a bit and set up where they need to be. Also, given the prevalence of weapons that inflict 2+ damage on a hit, cheaper single wound models are obviously far better for bullet catchers. They seem to have distilled the idea that Marines are all around units in general, which is already a bit of a handicap, and simply made the Primaris more so. I haven't seen too many armies that went heavy on Primaris that did all that well, so I don't think regular Marines are going anywhere anytime soon.

I want a codex Primaris with more units, reasonably priced transports etc. That said I do not think they will ever replace normal marines. the backlash would be to big. I do think the space marines have too many units already though so trimming some back or combining platforms and just having wargear options like the 3 landraiders combined like in CA should really be how they are done. Same for demolishers/predators. make one kit include both weapons options and one entry, this would make room for said primaris units without having even more entries than now.

Slipspace wrote:
The new Blood Angels Codex is definitely trying hard to push the Primaris marines, with them being front-and-centre in the images and unit descriptions. All signs are pointing towards GW wanting to make Primaris the main units for Space Marines.

The guy on the cover of the regular marine codex looks awfully big too...

I think it will be a "soft" replacement. I expect more primaris releases over the course of the edition, filling obvious gaps in their line. This will be accompanied in the fluff with chapters slowly going full primaris (with the occasional bout of drama).

When that is done (or done enough) and 9th or 10th comes around I expect them to basically say: "Look guys, the oldmarines are practically all primaris now. You can use your old marine models as primaris (like a 2nd edition carnifex is still a legal carnifex). From this point on oldmarines will not have separate rules.". If they do this gradually no one will really object; primaris marines will then be "the" marines, like the oldmarines currently are.

It won't happen, but I liked the idea of proper Space Marines becoming outlaws, and increasingly rare...scattered across the galaxy, etc. I was hoping the Imperium would become more of a bad thing, with fringe and rogue Space Marine elements protecting human outposts etc. Lots of fluffy room for that future, but I suspect it'll be far less dramatic.

I think the OP is confused.

Necrons phase out... Primaris Marines can't.

Will GW Phase out old Marines?

They are already doing it. They are doing it gradually, but the phase-out has already begun. I don't think we will ever see newly sculpted old-marine models.

From a balance perspective it seems apt. Tacticals really don't work well at 13 points per model, and if you lower their cost to 10-11 points per model then they are not all that super-soldiery anymore. A reasonable way to buff tacticals would be to give them +1W, +1A, and AP-1. And then you have intercessors.

So why didn't they just up the stats of all marines, and announce a new line of SM models with bigger proportions and a fresher look? Why did they butcher the fluff with Guillimans new super-duper soldiers alongside the old merely-super soldiers?

Time, is probably the answer. It will take them many years to update every power-armour clad model to the new proportions, and no one will buy an iPhone 10 once the iPhone 11 has been announced.

I think it's fairly obvious that primaris will replace normal marines eventually. It won't happen for a while though, and I'm sure by the time it does, primaris will be so widespread and with so many more options that it won't be as big of a deal as it seems now.

I think the only reason they did it this way (with the whole primaris fluff) was simple logistics. They wanted to update the marine line, but there are so many marine kits out there, and they couldn't recreate all of them at once. Instead, they just created two distinct forces until more kits can be made. I don't think we'll see any more vanilla marine kits - they've done pretty much all they can with the line (the size of the codex is proof enough).

They also took the opportunity to look at marines balance wise. The way vanilla marine squads are built, it's awkward to price them. 4 marines with bolters are actually 4 additional wounds for the lascannon in the squad. So you have to bake that into their cost. Then wouldn't they be underpowered for squads that don't have those weapons? This is why vanilla marines are so fragile - so much value in the squad is contained in the special weapons, and making the base troop efficiently costed would make the army overpowered.

Primaris don't have this problem, so they can afford to make the basic troop more durable. When you shoot at hellblasters, you know that you'll kill a hellblaster. You don't have 4-9 intercessors to chew through first before you get to the model wrecking you. I also think it was a calculated decision not to give them cheap transports. When you think marines fluffwise, you think beefy elite infantry, not glass cannons riding in metal boxes. This was their chance to make marines into what new players think they should be (rather than Bobby G's parking lot). Obviously they're trying to push this playstyle with chapter approved - everything primaris got buffed.

Just my 2 cents.

Edit: Looks like someone beat me to my point!

Once the molds for the old marines reach the end of their life, they're probably toast.

Gwarok wrote:
Primaris ones aren't very flexible

This is the entire reason I think GW is moving to Primaris. Less moving parts, less SKU’s and molds for all those options that have to balanced and statted out. Look at how most other armies have, at most, two options for wargear for their troops. I think GW wants to greatly simplify the options available to a model to streamline the game side of the equasion. Perhaps it is because they want to remove decision paralysis, make the game easier to balance or they are simply lazy, but it is apparent that Primaris were chosen deliberately to be inflexible with their weapon options.

 Elbows wrote:
It won't happen, but I liked the idea of proper Space Marines becoming outlaws, and increasingly rare...scattered across the galaxy, etc. I was hoping the Imperium would become more of a bad thing, with fringe and rogue Space Marine elements protecting human outposts etc. Lots of fluffy room for that future, but I suspect it'll be far less dramatic.

I really love this idea and would be stoked if GW did implement it.

9th edition you could run your "traditional" marines as renegades/heratics with the new primaris loyalists hunting them down led by the newly found primarchs.

Give the primaris their own codex(s?) and then lump all the surviving mini-marines into another codex (who cares about chapters, they're trying to kill all of us!). Some fluff about the gene-seed going bad or something and poof. New line for GW (primaris) reduced whining from existing customers (you can keep playing with your boys, and now their cool because we don't make them anymore).

Hell I'd love it if GW just came out and did that now. I'd even buy the book!

 Talizvar wrote:
There was enough carrying on about the SM base size change.

My "gut" tells me that Primaris will be the "new" marines.
From what I have seen GW really looks like they want to re-package the look of 40k.
It looks like they want to kick the "scale creep" can down the road a bit longer.

Mixing my old Plague marines (metal) looks a tiny bit strange next to the new PM "monsters" for instance.

The thoughts on 30k being for the "old" models sounds like a good possibility.

As a company looking to make money, I think they will continue for a few years to flog both old and new since the molds paid for themselves long ago.

Rubric marines and custodes are also around that primaris size. It definitely seems like GW wants to fix the size issue. I mean i have some guardsmen that are taller than CSM.

They still have models from gorkamorka for sale. The poster child Space monkeys are not going away any time soon.

As has already been said, this seems like a planned phase out of the regular marines for the new "bigger and better" style and it needs to be done gradually to prevent people from feeling their nice armies are suddenly outdated.

But just you wait until you see the faction specific Primaris kits with all the bling and symbols attached

 SickSix wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 SickSix wrote:
How would killing old marines in 40k kill the HH? Thats about the most ridiculous thing I have heard since Primaris came out.

HH has their own plastic sets. And FW can keep doing what they doing regardless of Primaris.

Well killing old marines kinda means not selling kits anymore...No models on sale, not much of a game left.

Do you not understand that 40k is completely separate from 30k? Primaris will replace marines in 40k. This has zero bearing on 30k.

Except you know killing off selling of those models will affect HH. Or you think they will keep kits on sale but not provide rules for 40k? That makes sense! NOT! They are not going to not provide rules for kits that used to be usable in 40k if they keep selling them. GW has been all about removing any restrictions whatsoever on using models removing restrictions on having multiple factions, moving super heavies to normal games to ensure players have reason to buy them apart from rare apoc games etc. Now you think they would add NEW restriction by removing models from 40k rules but keeping models? As if. If they keep selling plastic models they want them to sell rather than sit at warehouse because players can't use it in games. They aren't going to remove MKVII marines, rhino's, predators etc from 40k rules yet keep them on sale.

I'm sure they will have some sort of legacy rules, just no support. SOB situation basically.

Also, I really don't think 30K playerbase is particularly significant compared to 40K playerbase, so I don't think how things would affect HH is a high priority consideration to GW.

True that. Maybe FW is significant enough GW can just afford to let it go as without HH there's no FW left to run. Which just reinforces my point. Hopefully not! HH is only game GW has left that has rules of any value.

Isn't this inevitable? I mean, if GW never changed the models, we would have now beakies of the size of a guardsman or something.

It's not the proportions of the models that concerns me. I like the way intercessors look. They are nice sculpts.

My issues are thus:

-They are attempting to removed the flaws in Space Marine genes. Everything in this universe is flawed. It's supposed to be, the whole reason half of them turned traitor is because they are flawed. Thats the reason Space Marines are interesting. What are the Space Wolves and Blood Angels without their flaws? Boring. There's a reason people hate on Superman and Ultramarines. Whats the point if you are perfect? It makes the story meaningless if there are no consequences or stakes.

-They are too clean. All this new tech that they are pumping out is abhorrent to me as a 40K player. Keep things medieval. Swords and Sorcery!

-They are releasing a bunch of units that I don't care about and never asked for. What the hell are Aggressors, Rievers and Inceptors anyway? I don't want these. Just make some fething Assault Marines and Terminators. If they are going to re-scale the whole army, give me the classics. I don't care about this new garbage. All those units look bad too.

tneva82 wrote:
HH is only game GW has left that has rules of any value.

Is it very different? I took a look at a few models (the Guard equiv is awful looking...) and had assumed it was some earlier edition fork just running off of those rules (with profiles for that era's troops).

Personally, I do not think they will be removed. I think they are going to do the same thing to them they did to the Sisters of Battle. The current models will stay in production and they will continue to receive rules support. They are just never going to see any releases anymore. All new releases will probably be Primaris. FW will continue to use the old scale for HH releases though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:
True that. Maybe FW is significant enough GW can just afford to let it go as without HH there's no FW left to run. Which just reinforces my point. Hopefully not! HH is only game GW has left that has rules of any value.

Plenty of stuff FW does and has done that does not relate to the HH. Also, you clearly never played LotR. Best rules ever. Current AoS rules are also somewhat decent.