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 EnTyme wrote:
The Ethereal nerf is odd to me. I don't know that the old method was really all that powerful. The only model that it was really broken on is the Mourngul, and it actually has a different rule that did effectively the same thing, so this change won't affect it. Seriously, a 2+ Mourngul is just annoying to deal with.

Cover.

Oh, I know what the change affects, I'm just not sure it was really necessary. What problem is this fixing?

 EnTyme wrote:
The Ethereal nerf is odd to me. I don't know that the old method was really all that powerful. The only model that it was really broken on is the Mourngul, and it actually has a different rule that did effectively the same thing, so this change won't affect it. Seriously, a 2+ Mourngul is just annoying to deal with.

I think the nerf was so they could apply buffs elsewhere. See, they made it so ethereal was less able to be broken and always preformed as expected and in return now everything in nighthaunt mortal wounds on 6s. I’d wager the mortal wounds is well worth the nerf.

Also hex wraiths seem good now.

Spirit Hosts and Hexwraiths might lose Mystic Shield and Cover combo, but they gain Summonable healing abilities (almost none before) and Hexwraiths got better potential to inflict Mortal Wounds.
Looks like Grand Host of Nagash is best Allegiance for them (healing on 5+ in hero phase).

So Im not fully nuanced in the ways of AoS yet so I'm probably missing something. But is it just me or does it seem like Neferata has less abilities than her fellow Mortarchs?

 EnTyme wrote:
Oh, I know what the change affects, I'm just not sure it was really necessary. What problem is this fixing?

It was very very easy to get 3+ ignore all rend on the majority of a Nighthaunt army. If objectives are near/in area terrain it became painfully difficult to move them. But basically; it wasn't very fun. Now they have a bit more offensive power across the board (which they needed) but aren't as tanky/don't need to camp cover to get the most out of the army.

Okay. Never really had to fight against Nighthaunts, but I could see that being a problem.

Everybody keeps saying nighthaunt got less tanky over the Ethereal change... But at the same time, they gained a lot of extra staying power by actually being able to be resurrected/healed through the summonable keyword.

If anything, I reckon their defensive value has gotten a tad better over it. Their offensive abilities definitely got increased. Overall, I think nighthaunt is one of the big winners in this book.

Running pure nighthaunt is probably ill advisable at this stage because none of their heroes have deathly invocation.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
So Im not fully nuanced in the ways of AoS yet so I'm probably missing something. But is it just me or does it seem like Neferata has less abilities than her fellow Mortarchs?

She does have the least amount of abilities on her Warscroll but she has the most attacks, easier to hit and wound, and the dagger of jet which if it wounds and doesn't kill a model in the combat phase than on a 6+ the model is dead. Now all the legions have some good differences but as I am a neferata fan I went with the legion of blood and the command ability to bring a summonable unit that was destroyed back on at a gravesite if the general is within 9" of it is nice for my 40 unit skeletons. The legion also adds one to attacks for vampire lords and blood knights.

 BWheasler wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
So Im not fully nuanced in the ways of AoS yet so I'm probably missing something. But is it just me or does it seem like Neferata has less abilities than her fellow Mortarchs?

She does have the least amount of abilities on her Warscroll but she has the most attacks, easier to hit and wound, and the dagger of jet which if it wounds and doesn't kill a model in the combat phase than on a 6+ the model is dead. Now all the legions have some good differences but as I am a neferata fan I went with the legion of blood and the command ability to bring a summonable unit that was destroyed back on at a gravesite if the general is within 9" of it is nice for my 40 unit skeletons. The legion also adds one to attacks for vampire lords and blood knights.

Ok, cool. I'm in a toss up if I want to start with her or Mannfred, because both Legions have some neat stuff, but I think ultimately I will start with Nefrata. Buffs to the Vamps seem good and I want to work a few of them in with my Skeletons.

Well mannfreds legion has the same command ability but instead of an extra attack he can set up 3 units in ambush to come in from a table edge and his deathrattle units get +1 save if they are in your territory. I think they are all good so it's all personal preference.

Since I have two Mortarchs to build, I'll probably end up building both Mannfred and Neferata and swap them out occasionally.

Eventually add Arkhan, because well why not right?

 Elmir wrote:
Everybody keeps saying nighthaunt got less tanky over the Ethereal change... But at the same time, they gained a lot of extra staying power by actually being able to be resurrected/healed through the summonable keyword.

If anything, I reckon their defensive value has gotten a tad better over it. Their offensive abilities definitely got increased. Overall, I think nighthaunt is one of the big winners in this book.

Running pure nighthaunt is probably ill advisable at this stage because none of their heroes have deathly invocation.

Nighthaunts got rounded out and made more functional in a very good way. Like you said their defensive capabilities didn't necessarily have a net loss but work better now since there is much more of a tactical aspect to it. Overall they are a weaker allegiance but they are so specialized I find it OK; it reserves the army for players who really want the style of pure-Nighthaunts rather than players just looking to make a powerful army. I think they are strong enough now to compete on equal footing for casual play, which is where they should be.

 Elmir wrote:
Everybody keeps saying nighthaunt got less tanky over the Ethereal change... But at the same time, they gained a lot of extra staying power by actually being able to be resurrected/healed through the summonable keyword.

If anything, I reckon their defensive value has gotten a tad better over it. Their offensive abilities definitely got increased. Overall, I think nighthaunt is one of the big winners in this book.

Running pure nighthaunt is probably ill advisable at this stage because none of their heroes have deathly invocation.

we have been lacking proper heros since the beginning. only in the past 8 months has the coach become usefull but still it needs a command ability to be 100% up and running as a hero.
and the banshee+cairn are just placeholder heros as i see it.

what i dont understand is why did they not include the NH subfaction traits from GHB17 in this book..

we have been lacking proper heros since the beginning. only in the past 8 months has the coach become usefull but still it needs a command ability to be 100% up and running as a hero.
and the banshee+cairn are just placeholder heros as i see it.

https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/Downloads//ENG%20Knight%20of%20Shrouds.pdf

Knight of Shrouds?

what i dont understand is why did they not include the NH subfaction traits from GHB17 in this book..

They are still usable..no?

 Sal4m4nd3r wrote:

we have been lacking proper heros since the beginning. only in the past 8 months has the coach become usefull but still it needs a command ability to be 100% up and running as a hero.
and the banshee+cairn are just placeholder heros as i see it.

https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/Downloads//ENG%20Knight%20of%20Shrouds.pdf

Knight of Shrouds?

what i dont understand is why did they not include the NH subfaction traits from GHB17 in this book..

They are still usable..no?

spectral overseer should imo have been given to the cairn and banshee and then something better to be given to the knight. (my idea: all NH fully witin 6" of the knight gains an additional rend modifyer to a maximum of -2. then ofc increase hes point cost to balance it)

The GHB17 NH trait is still valid yes, but if it can be combined whit any of the 4 new legions, i have no idea about.

I'm not convinced by arguments that Nighthaunt have improved. The changes to Ethereal and extra mortal wounds kinda balance each other out, so I'm not worried about that. What I'm talking about is they have been shut out of summoning, and the Lore of the Dead.

Nighthaunt Wizards (rare though they are), do not get extra spells from the new Lores, but more significantly, they dont get access to Gravesites, and their heroes dont have the Invocation. So Nighthaunt allegiance armies have no summoning and no regeneration. Allied heroes will grant the Invocation, but still no summoning, and allied wizards dont get extra powers.

Looking through the book, it also seems that Soulblight gets the new Spell Lores, but doesnt have summoning, and Death and FEC get neither. FEC units are in their book at all, so they actually cant even join the new allegiances.

This may not turn out to be a big deal, since Nighthaun dont typically have Wizards, and have their own quasi-summon, but it seems they become weaker in comparison to the new allegiances.

What this suggests to me, I that leaving out Nighthaunt implies they will have their own Tome at some point. Rumours were that we would see 2 new Death Tomes, and many people thought the second could be something like Deathcast, or Death Elves, but that second book could just be Nighthaunt.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FrozenDwarf wrote:

The GHB17 NH trait is still valid yes, but if it can be combined whit any of the 4 new legions, i have no idea about.

My understanding (book in hand) is that they cannot be combined. Nighthaunt allegiance is totally separate from this book. My question is, how does the Nighthaunt Command Trait "Cloaked in Shadow" (+1 to save rolls for general) work with the new Ethereal Rule?

it dosent anymore.
it is a posetive modifyer and the new ethereal spesificly says negative and posetive modifyers.

that is why the new ethereal rule is a nerf.
the price for beeing imune to rend is apparently no save lower then 4+

Colonel Cabbage wrote:
I'm not convinced by arguments that Nighthaunt have improved. The changes to Ethereal and extra mortal wounds kinda balance each other out, so I'm not worried about that. What I'm talking about is they have been shut out of summoning, and the Lore of the Dead.

Nighthaunt Wizards (rare though they are), do not get extra spells from the new Lores, but more significantly, they dont get access to Gravesites, and their heroes dont have the Invocation. So Nighthaunt allegiance armies have no summoning and no regeneration. Allied heroes will grant the Invocation, but still no summoning, and allied wizards dont get extra powers.

Looking through the book, it also seems that Soulblight gets the new Spell Lores, but doesnt have summoning, and Death and FEC get neither. FEC units are in their book at all, so they actually cant even join the new allegiances.

This may not turn out to be a big deal, since Nighthaun dont typically have Wizards, and have their own quasi-summon, but it seems they become weaker in comparison to the new allegiances.

What this suggests to me, I that leaving out Nighthaunt implies they will have their own Tome at some point. Rumours were that we would see 2 new Death Tomes, and many people thought the second could be something like Deathcast, or Death Elves, but that second book could just be Nighthaunt.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FrozenDwarf wrote:

The GHB17 NH trait is still valid yes, but if it can be combined whit any of the 4 new legions, i have no idea about.

My understanding (book in hand) is that they cannot be combined. Nighthaunt allegiance is totally separate from this book. My question is, how does the Nighthaunt Command Trait "Cloaked in Shadow" (+1 to save rolls for general) work with the new Ethereal Rule?

Just play a nighthaunt army using the rules for the legions. Sure ya might need to throw in some skeletons, but I’d that really such a big draw back?

The loss of summoning spells doesn't affect Nighthaunt at all...

Also, Knight of Shrouds command ability is way better than an extra point of rend would be. +1 to hit on models that do mortal wounds on 6+ is huge. That alone is a massive boost to Nighthaunt armies.

 Jaxler wrote:

Colonel Cabbage wrote:
I'm not convinced by arguments that Nighthaunt have improved. The changes to Ethereal and extra mortal wounds kinda balance each other out, so I'm not worried about that. What I'm talking about is they have been shut out of summoning, and the Lore of the Dead.

Nighthaunt Wizards (rare though they are), do not get extra spells from the new Lores, but more significantly, they dont get access to Gravesites, and their heroes dont have the Invocation. So Nighthaunt allegiance armies have no summoning and no regeneration. Allied heroes will grant the Invocation, but still no summoning, and allied wizards dont get extra powers.

Looking through the book, it also seems that Soulblight gets the new Spell Lores, but doesnt have summoning, and Death and FEC get neither. FEC units are in their book at all, so they actually cant even join the new allegiances.

This may not turn out to be a big deal, since Nighthaun dont typically have Wizards, and have their own quasi-summon, but it seems they become weaker in comparison to the new allegiances.

What this suggests to me, I that leaving out Nighthaunt implies they will have their own Tome at some point. Rumours were that we would see 2 new Death Tomes, and many people thought the second could be something like Deathcast, or Death Elves, but that second book could just be Nighthaunt.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FrozenDwarf wrote:

The GHB17 NH trait is still valid yes, but if it can be combined whit any of the 4 new legions, i have no idea about.

My understanding (book in hand) is that they cannot be combined. Nighthaunt allegiance is totally separate from this book. My question is, how does the Nighthaunt Command Trait "Cloaked in Shadow" (+1 to save rolls for general) work with the new Ethereal Rule?

Just play a nighthaunt army using the rules for the legions. Sure ya might need to throw in some skeletons, but I’d that really such a big draw back?

all depends on how fluffy you want it.
if you want to include the black coach you need to toss in skellys and deathmages instead of banshee/cairns.

you can ofc ignore the coach and bring 20 skellys but once you go down that path of opening up the army for use with legions then there are better units to bring then ghosts and then suddenly your no longer playing NH.

I would like to see a return of some kind for tomb kings

 FrozenDwarf wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:

Colonel Cabbage wrote:
I'm not convinced by arguments that Nighthaunt have improved. The changes to Ethereal and extra mortal wounds kinda balance each other out, so I'm not worried about that. What I'm talking about is they have been shut out of summoning, and the Lore of the Dead.

Nighthaunt Wizards (rare though they are), do not get extra spells from the new Lores, but more significantly, they dont get access to Gravesites, and their heroes dont have the Invocation. So Nighthaunt allegiance armies have no summoning and no regeneration. Allied heroes will grant the Invocation, but still no summoning, and allied wizards dont get extra powers.

Looking through the book, it also seems that Soulblight gets the new Spell Lores, but doesnt have summoning, and Death and FEC get neither. FEC units are in their book at all, so they actually cant even join the new allegiances.

This may not turn out to be a big deal, since Nighthaun dont typically have Wizards, and have their own quasi-summon, but it seems they become weaker in comparison to the new allegiances.

What this suggests to me, I that leaving out Nighthaunt implies they will have their own Tome at some point. Rumours were that we would see 2 new Death Tomes, and many people thought the second could be something like Deathcast, or Death Elves, but that second book could just be Nighthaunt.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FrozenDwarf wrote:

The GHB17 NH trait is still valid yes, but if it can be combined whit any of the 4 new legions, i have no idea about.

My understanding (book in hand) is that they cannot be combined. Nighthaunt allegiance is totally separate from this book. My question is, how does the Nighthaunt Command Trait "Cloaked in Shadow" (+1 to save rolls for general) work with the new Ethereal Rule?

Just play a nighthaunt army using the rules for the legions. Sure ya might need to throw in some skeletons, but I’d that really such a big draw back?

all depends on how fluffy you want it.
if you want to include the black coach you need to toss in skellys and deathmages instead of banshee/cairns.

you can ofc ignore the coach and bring 20 skellys but once you go down that path of opening up the army for use with legions then there are better units to bring then ghosts and then suddenly your no longer playing NH.

What are you talking about? Spirit hoasts and hex wraiths are some of the best units in the book now. Also just run a Mortis engine over the black coach. It looks more fitting and will do more.

heh starting to see facebook posts complaining that skeletons are way undercost and running people through the wringer.

This is my shocked face you don't say they are undercost?

I hear there is something on tga complaining about nagash armies and skeletons as well.

Context for those that haven't followed the forums here for a while: when the devs introduced the concept of cheaper max size units, I was strongly against it because skeletons were already undercost for what they could do in hordes due to their bonuses they get when fielded in large numbers, and by further discounting them they were, in my opinion, playing with greek-fire in terms of breaking game balance.

It was pooh pooh'd because skeletons weren't suddenly winning tournaments (I think thats a flawed analysis anyway as tournaments are a tiny sample of games but thats another topic) - but I also think we didn't see death armies in tournaments anyway because they lacked a modern book and no one was going to play a force without up to date book.

Now they have an up to date book and death armies are appearing. And we are discovering skeletons can be pretty lethal taken at max size and getting that sizeable bonus for not just free, but actually negative points (since its a discount).

This is my 2019 campaign force. I have a sizeable tomb king collection. I will be running several maxed out skeleton squads. Right now... they are a terror. Lets see what happens next year.

I'm sure the doubters will be back to admit you were right, and will reconsider dismissing your concerns out of hand next time.

Not.

You know what happens when the wise man comes down to the cave to tell them about the Sun and the Shadows. They kill him.

Or ban him from their forum

ban him THEN kill him? but thats ok, he already serves Nagash the traitor anyhow....villain!

Truth. He is a servant of the dead.

If GW ever does skeleton pirates I’ll throw all my money at them and pick up 4K points that day.