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I certainly wouldn't describe myself as hot. About the only part of me that I would consider to be stereotypically attractive is my eyes (greeny-blue with eyelashes girls wear fakes to recreate!). The rest of me is average to large.

Yet I've been in multiple relationships over my life, with my current one at 5 years and counting.

Incellism is basically a self-fulfilling prophecy where people are told they are ugly and then become ugly in response to that, through what they say and do. What makes it worse is they are told they are ugly and that being ugly is the problem by the people who claim to be supporting them.

From The Twits:

Roald Dahl wrote:If a person has ugly thoughts, it begins to show on the face. And when that person has ugly thoughts every day, every week, every year, the face gets uglier and uglier until you can hardly bear to look at it.

A person who has good thoughts cannot ever be ugly. You can have a wonky nose and a crooked mouth and a double chin and stick-out teeth, but if you have good thoughts it will shine out of your face like sunbeams and you will always look lovely.

This is incredibly true in many cases. Think of the people you've met in life who you might describe as ugly. All of the ones I can think of are not because of how they look, but because of their character.

 Da Boss wrote:


Sorry, but you've not experienced being on a dating website as a woman. Talking to some female friends, they have to put up with some horrendous stuff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
btw I completely agree that there is a sinister older contingent to this community who are working to radicalize these guys for their own ends. You'll see them on any of the fora, if you can stomach browsing them.

Not just datieg sites actually. I have been complimented on non dating sites(language exchange) how I'm nice persoe to write because I don't try to get a date, often in weird and creepy way. Some guys seems really desperate!

I went on Bumble for a month after my last breakup. I wasn’t taking seriously, mostly I did it for curiosity because I friend was on there. I was on a month and didn’t get a single match, no conversations to start. I’m not a model but I don’t think I look bad either. But it’s a waste of time. Decided it was actually bad for my self esteem to feel like the last turkey in the shop.

The other problem with online dating is committing to the date before naturally meeting. Normally, you’d have introduced yourself to each other in person and have some slight connection in that undefinable way before arranging a date. Starting a date with a stranger, having only texted or read some online profile, turns it into a complete crapshoot as you don’t don’t ‘click’ with the majority of people despite common interests and the like. I’ve known people go on dozen of dates and it’s just a time and money sink because they know within minutes of meeting their date if they’re warm to them or not.

I met my wife through online dating - there's nothing wrong with it, and it's certainly better than the traditional manner of clubs, alcohol and bad judgement. Being serious, it doesn't matter how you meet someone (usually through social things, or friends of friends is one of the best ways If you ask me), so long as you can make a funny story out of it.

Take me and mrs.deadnight. Hollywood movie stuff literally.

I'd done the online dating thing twice, and fairly serious stints. I'd dated before, and had long term relationships but wanted to try it out. To be fair, I'd just moved countries, and since I don't have family here and was just building up a network of friends, I found it a grèat way to get out and meet people. Anyway, it's described as a crap shoot, and yes, I had plenty dares that never went far, which is perfectly fair. Not everyone is compatible. No different really to meeting folks through other ways. Now, for both stints, I had fun. But it got to the point where I'd had enough of it, you know, and wanted to take a break. So yeah, my last date was the lady who would become mrs.deadnight. My last date. in her case, I was her very first actual online date. The Very first. and it was magic. so yeah, it does happen. And I like to make the joke of us that I was just desperate and she just has really low standards. Still, six years later and going strong. Married a whole month and we've not killed each other yet either!

More on topic, When I was dating, although I clicked with some and didn't click with others, I did make friends and we had some fun times. One of the great fun things to chat about with girls, and have a laugh over I found was asking them about the worst message they got from a guy. And I'd tell about the worst I'd gotten (usually just emails with 'hi' and no other hook) And sadly, they all had far too many stories of them usually worse or more bizarre than mine. Whether it's penis pics, or just a couple of words in emails , even 'hi' with no hook, angry emails about why they weren't messaging back immediately, they all had stories from guys who didn't really get how to play the game, or else who were simply trolling. some of them were hilarious. The best one I remember hearing about was an email from a guy who had typed it up phonetically in a thick Glaswegian accent with all the slang you can imagine. It was... memorable but pretty harmless. Some of the others? Yeah, us guys don't do ourselves any favours sometimes!

I met my wife on a forum for a webcomic. *Shrug* Whatever works!

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Incellism is basically a self-fulfilling prophecy where people are told they are ugly and then become ugly in response to that, through what they say and do.

"Incel" is a self-chosen political identity. It isn't a condition or a personal problem, as such, it's an ideology. Men can have nothing much at all in the way of a sex life and not be incel.

Rosebuddy wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Incellism is basically a self-fulfilling prophecy where people are told they are ugly and then become ugly in response to that, through what they say and do.

"Incel" is a self-chosen political identity. It isn't a condition or a personal problem, as such, it's an ideology. Men can have nothing much at all in the way of a sex life and not be incel.

Eh. 50/50. Etymologically, the word just stands for 'involuntary celibate' or 'Person who would like to have sex but cannot'. In that sense, many people are 'incels' including most young teenagers with firework hormones.

Practically though, 'incel' has turned into a specific social grouping who divide it into 'Normies' and 'us'. Even they get confused, I've seen screenshots of incels who've had sex once being told that they're not 'incel' any longer, purely because they're not virgins; whils they scramble to argue and disagree.

 Ketara wrote:

Rosebuddy wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Incellism is basically a self-fulfilling prophecy where people are told they are ugly and then become ugly in response to that, through what they say and do.

"Incel" is a self-chosen political identity. It isn't a condition or a personal problem, as such, it's an ideology. Men can have nothing much at all in the way of a sex life and not be incel.

Eh. 50/50. Etymologically, the word just stands for 'involuntary celibate' or 'Person who would like to have sex but cannot'. In that sense, many people are 'incels' including most young teenagers with firework hormones.

Practically though, 'incel' has turned into a specific social grouping who divide it into 'Normies' and 'us'. Even they get confused, I've seen screenshots of incels who've had sex once being told that they're not 'incel' any longer, purely because they're not virgins; whils they scramble to argue and disagree.

That is what I said. You haven't actually demonstrated superior knowledge by coming in here, rating my three sentences as half true and then agreeing that it takes more than merely not having a sex life to be part of the "incel" label. Indeed, they consciously set themselves apart from "normies". That's what it means to construct a political identity.

I was pointing out that one could easily be considered as or identify as an incel in the original and etymological sense, as opposed to the factional. Which is a distinction your post failed to make. Ain't nothing to do with 'superior knowledge' about that. You might want to eat a kit kat though, judging by the affronted tone.

 Xenomancers wrote:
This isn't how it actually works.

It works more like this in the online dating.

Hot girls get whatever they want
Average girls get whatever they want
Hot guys have a pretty good time
Not so cute girls have a pretty good time
Average guys get almost nothing
not so cute guys need not apply.

Pretty much - it sucks to be a not so cute guy.

Dude, I've done on-line dating. I dated a bunch of girls, and met my wife through on-line dating. And believe me I am not a hot guy.

But I'm not even arguing against your theory because my personal experience is different, but because what you describe is gibberish in a few different ways. First - it doesn't pass a basic run the basic maths test. If there are ten girls and ten guys in a dating pool, with say 2 guys and 2 girls in the very hot category, then the only way that the other 8 guys get shut out is if the 2 guys go date crazy, taking out a different girl every night, so the two guys date every single night while the girls each settle for 1 date every 5 nights. It's stupid.

Second - from a basic behavioural stance, consider the decision making of the girls. Each of the ten gets picked up by the two hot guys when the hot guy pleases, with no hope of anything long term because each of those guys is just moving from girl to girl constantly. In that environment any of those girls can drop down to the 3rd most attractive guy, and secure someone permanent, and girls in the bottom tier could get a partner well above them. For your theory to work you'd have to believe that idea never occurred to any girl.

Lastly, it doesn't work because studies have shown while guys have a very clear standards of beauty, girls actually differ considerably, with different girls looking for very different features in guys. So in terms of biology the theory doesn't work.

So basically, the idea doesn't work, at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
You man very well be a hot guy. I am just an average guy. I've had some success with online dating but it takes a lot of work. I've also looked at the apps of many girls that I have been with through online dating and it is astounding the amount of attention even a very average girl gets. 20 fold higher than me. It's amazing I was able to get anyones attention.

This is actually very frustrating because I explained this quite clearly, you responded but by this post it became clear you missed my point entirely.

Yes, the girls you contact will get many contacts, many more than most guys. Because we live in a culture where guys make the first contact. So if we return to the example I gave of ten guys and ten girls, and all 10 boys contacting the five prettiest girls, then those five girls will pick one dude each, and that's tough for the five guys who get rejected. But its absolute gibberish to think it is only tough for those five guys, because that means ignoring the five girls who were also ignored.

What you have done is look at the number of contacts the girls you liked got, and ignored the contacts of girls you had no interest in. It's a clear selection bias problem.

But it is very tough for even average men to find love in this world.

It's tough for everyone, mate.

You know... I can't think of a single time when I was the one that made first contact.

Heck, I managed to miss the fact that my now-wife was interested in me when she sat on my lap naked. Twice. (It was at a pagan retreat, where I was running a Pathfinder game. I just chalked it up to 'pagans being pagans, and freaking the 'dane', and helped her with generating her character. )

The Auld Grump - she caught me in the end though. Our daughter is now at the 'escaping from the playpen' stage.

 Da Boss wrote:
I met my wife on a forum for a webcomic. *Shrug* Whatever works!

Much the same. My wife messaged me on a forum out of the blue one day, asking some questions about the military.

13 years married now with 3 kids. Life is funny sometimes.

I met my wife in a college prep program while I was a 250 lb greasy teenager with questionable fashion choices.

I was far from good looking.

It almost sounds like the only thing holding back incels is the batgak crazy misogyny and sense of entitlement.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
It almost sounds like the only thing holding back incels is the batgak crazy misogyny and sense of entitlement.

Shocking isn't it? /sarcasm

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

Heck, I managed to miss the fact that my now-wife was interested in me when she sat on my lap naked. Twice. (It was at a pagan retreat, where I was running a Pathfinder game. I just chalked it up to 'pagans being pagans, and freaking the 'dane', and helped her with generating her character. )

This only creates more questions

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
It almost sounds like the only thing holding back incels is the batgak crazy misogyny and sense of entitlement.

So, getting back to some of this, no. It's not that.

I'm seriously worried about stuff like this with my oldest son. He has Aspergers, among some other issues, and a trait of his is extreme selfishness. This is something that he can't help, and my wife and I have spent the last 3 years doing everything we can to try to get him to expand his worldview beyond himself, but results are minimal.

He will have relationship problems as a teenage/adult. He may never end up in a lifelong relationship, if one at all. He very well could be an Incel, and it wouldn't be flying rodent gak crazy misogyny or a sense of entitlement to blame. It would be the result of a chemical imbalance in his brain that isn't correctable. I imagine that many of these people are like that as well.

I saw a post a little while back, someone mentioning folks preying on people like this, and pushing them down the radical road, and that's something that scares the gak out of me with my son. It also hurts seeing generalized characterizations like this being thrown around, because folks just don't want to take the time to really dig into it.

 djones520 wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
It almost sounds like the only thing holding back incels is the batgak crazy misogyny and sense of entitlement.

So, getting back to some of this, no. It's not that.

I'm seriously worried about stuff like this with my oldest son. He has Aspergers, among some other issues, and a trait of his is extreme selfishness. This is something that he can't help, and my wife and I have spent the last 3 years doing everything we can to try to get him to expand his worldview beyond himself, but results are minimal.

He will have relationship problems as a teenage/adult. He may never end up in a lifelong relationship, if one at all. He very well could be an Incel, and it wouldn't be flying rodent gak crazy misogyny or a sense of entitlement to blame. It would be the result of a chemical imbalance in his brain that isn't correctable. I imagine that many of these people are like that as well.

I saw a post a little while back, someone mentioning folks preying on people like this, and pushing them down the radical road, and that's something that scares the gak out of me with my son. It also hurts seeing generalized characterizations like this being thrown around, because folks just don't want to take the time to really dig into it.

But I wouldn't call your son an incel DJones. An incel is someone who has that extreme misogyny combined with an extreme sense of entitlement. What your son is is just a regular virgin. Plenty of people don't lose their virginity before they are 20 or even 25, with some never. A number of people deal with certain issues or are very selfish without being virgins or colossal misogynists. Being an incel is a choice, being a regular virgin is involuntary.

The problem with saying things like "hurts" is that these people willingly go down the path of incredible misogyny. Just because you're a virgin doesn't mean you have to get a hate-on towards women. These people have agency, a choice not to go down that path, once that choice is made its hard for me to have sympathy for someone with such a vile ideology.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 djones520 wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
It almost sounds like the only thing holding back incels is the batgak crazy misogyny and sense of entitlement.

So, getting back to some of this, no. It's not that.

I'm seriously worried about stuff like this with my oldest son. He has Aspergers, among some other issues, and a trait of his is extreme selfishness. This is something that he can't help, and my wife and I have spent the last 3 years doing everything we can to try to get him to expand his worldview beyond himself, but results are minimal.

He will have relationship problems as a teenage/adult. He may never end up in a lifelong relationship, if one at all. He very well could be an Incel, and it wouldn't be flying rodent gak crazy misogyny or a sense of entitlement to blame. It would be the result of a chemical imbalance in his brain that isn't correctable. I imagine that many of these people are like that as well.

I saw a post a little while back, someone mentioning folks preying on people like this, and pushing them down the radical road, and that's something that scares the gak out of me with my son. It also hurts seeing generalized characterizations like this being thrown around, because folks just don't want to take the time to really dig into it.

But I wouldn't call your son an incel DJones. An incel is someone who has that extreme misogyny combined with an extreme sense of entitlement. What your son is is just a regular virgin. Plenty of people don't lose their virginity before they are 20 or even 25, with some never. A number of people deal with certain issues or are very selfish without being virgins or colossal misogynists. Being an incel is a choice, being a regular virgin is involuntary.

The problem with saying things like "hurts" is that these people willingly go down the path of incredible misogyny. Just because you're a virgin doesn't mean you have to get a hate-on towards women. These people have agency, a choice not to go down that path, once that choice is made its hard for me to have sympathy for someone with such a vile ideology.

Maybe I didn't make the issue clear enough. Folks like my son focus issues they face on external factors, not internal. It won't be his fault. It will be someone else's that he can't find a sexual relationship. That is how his brain works. You take these predators who "teach" these men that it is women's fault, it will be very easy for them to fall into that trap.

It would be very easy for my son to become an Incel, because his brain operates like that, through no fault of his own.

Its rough, inceldom wouldn't be the first ideology that preys on those more susceptible to do horrible things. I can't possibly understand how it is to have to deal with such matters and its incredibly hard when it comes to family.

A question then perhaps, you say it hurts, but at what point should people stop being sympathetic, when does it cross the line towards personal responsibility?

Plenty of people who have committed absolutely horrible acts didn't have the most happy life story, but at what point do actions and ideology cross the line where that simply becomes an excuse?

But the majority of people who have problems or a difficult life never cross those lines. I have good hope that the odds are on the side of your son in this matter.

 djones520 wrote:


Maybe I didn't make the issue clear enough. Folks like my son focus issues they face on external factors, not internal. It won't be his fault. It will be someone else's that he can't find a sexual relationship. That is how his brain works. You take these predators who "teach" these men that it is women's fault, it will be very easy for them to fall into that trap.

It would be very easy for my son to become an Incel, because his brain operates like that, through no fault of his own.

About the only thing I think that anyone can recommend, at least here, is to just continue to try to teach him that not everything is somebody else's fault and that sometimes things happen which are not anyone's fault, as well as teaching him about the dangers of people preying on his condition to make him do things which are not good for him.

I'm sure you are doing this, and a lot more besides, and I wish your son all the luck in the world that he does not fall prey to such vile people that would seek to hurt him in order to support their worldview.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Its rough, inceldom wouldn't be the first ideology that preys on those more susceptible to do horrible things. I can't possibly understand how it is to have to deal with such matters and its incredibly hard when it comes to family.

A question then perhaps, you say it hurts, but at what point should people stop being sympathetic, when does it cross the line towards personal responsibility?

Plenty of people who have committed absolutely horrible acts didn't have the most happy life story, but at what point do actions and ideology cross the line where that simply becomes an excuse?

But the majority of people who have problems or a difficult life never cross those lines. I have good hope that the odds are on the side of your son in this matter.

That's a good question. It's what that we try to teach our son, personal responsibility. We don't give him a pass, outwardly, at least, because the world won't. It's very hard though, because as I said, his brain just doesn't work that way like it does with most of us.

So at what point is it unreasonable to hold that expectation, when you know they're incapable of it?

 djones520 wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Its rough, inceldom wouldn't be the first ideology that preys on those more susceptible to do horrible things. I can't possibly understand how it is to have to deal with such matters and its incredibly hard when it comes to family.

A question then perhaps, you say it hurts, but at what point should people stop being sympathetic, when does it cross the line towards personal responsibility?

Plenty of people who have committed absolutely horrible acts didn't have the most happy life story, but at what point do actions and ideology cross the line where that simply becomes an excuse?

But the majority of people who have problems or a difficult life never cross those lines. I have good hope that the odds are on the side of your son in this matter.

That's a good question. It's what that we try to teach our son, personal responsibility. We don't give him a pass, outwardly, at least, because the world won't. It's very hard though, because as I said, his brain just doesn't work that way like it does with most of us.

So at what point is it unreasonable to hold that expectation, when you know they're incapable of it?

Its hard, once you cross the line/law no pass can be given. Its likely that this man in Toronto had some sort of issue, and I can recognize that. Where it crosses the line is advocating or simply harming other people. In that case I no longer have sympathy, but I do strongly believe that the justice system should do everything in its power to help this man with his condition/issue and place him in the appropriate place, regardless of what he did, because the potential underlying issue can't be ignored. Just because I don't have sympathy anymore doesn't mean I won't want to see them treated humanly.

I think as family you will never lose sympathy and I wouldn't ever begrudge anyone that sympathy, people are complex and we can't always let logic dictate how we feel. I think in the end personal responsibility can never be fully abolished, because in the end if someone crosses the line you have to act. But all too often those actions involve simply locking up a person in a prison that makes it far worse, while a specialized facility would have served far better.

 Da Boss wrote:
I met my wife on a forum for a webcomic. *Shrug* Whatever works!

My future wife contacted me back when I was running a forum for Bearded Dragons with some questions. It was probably the only bearded dragon website in existence then... pretty early internet. Kind of funny how back in the day "meeting someone on the internet" marked you as a weirdo, and now meeting someone in a bar is out outlier.

Anyway if a hideous cave troll like myself can find someone then these guys really have no excuse other then their sparkling personalities.

 Ouze wrote:

My future wife contacted me back when I was running a forum for Bearded Dragons with some questions.

Was one those questions about how her bearded dragon was meant to use the forum?

 Ouze wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
I met my wife on a forum for a webcomic. *Shrug* Whatever works!

My future wife contacted me back when I was running a forum for Bearded Dragons with some questions. It was probably the only bearded dragon website in existence then... pretty early internet. Kind of funny how back in the day "meeting someone on the internet" marked you as a weirdo, and now meeting someone in a bar is out outlier.

Anyway if a hideous cave troll like myself can find someone then these guys really have no excuse other then their sparkling personalities.

And some people say that Lizard People are a tin foil hat conspiracy theory.

 djones520 wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Its rough, inceldom wouldn't be the first ideology that preys on those more susceptible to do horrible things. I can't possibly understand how it is to have to deal with such matters and its incredibly hard when it comes to family.

A question then perhaps, you say it hurts, but at what point should people stop being sympathetic, when does it cross the line towards personal responsibility?

Plenty of people who have committed absolutely horrible acts didn't have the most happy life story, but at what point do actions and ideology cross the line where that simply becomes an excuse?

But the majority of people who have problems or a difficult life never cross those lines. I have good hope that the odds are on the side of your son in this matter.

That's a good question. It's what that we try to teach our son, personal responsibility. We don't give him a pass, outwardly, at least, because the world won't. It's very hard though, because as I said, his brain just doesn't work that way like it does with most of us.

So at what point is it unreasonable to hold that expectation, when you know they're incapable of it?

It's always dicey to comment on someone else's parenting, and I'm only a teacher myself, not a parent yet, but I deal with a lot of teenagers. I think you're doing the best you can here, and the fact that you can see what might happen and are worried about it will be the best defense for your son. I'm sure you know this and I hope this doesn't come across as patronizing when I have such limited knowledge of your situation, but teenagers are often extremely selfish and prone to assigning blame to external sources. Your son might be a lot worse than normal, but similarly, he may eventually improve as he gets older. I think keeping a close eye on it and being vigilant for any toxicity coming from malign sources outside will help protect against the worst of it. I just wanted to say that in many cases I see, the parents do not accept these sorts of hard truths and therefore miss warning signs etc until it is harder to do something, and it sounds to me like you've cleared that hurdle which is the hardest one.

I was "involuntarily celibate" (in a literal sense - I'd never heard of the community and ideology until now) until January this year. The transition was...overrated. If these men are telling themselves that having sex will be some silver bullet that magically solves the problems they have socializing and make their lives better...they're deluded.

Hell, if it was that easy, why not just hire a hooker and be done with it?

As DMX famously said, "yeah, sex is cool, but have you ever had garlic bread?"

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
I was "involuntarily celibate" (in a literal sense - I'd never heard of the community and ideology until now) until January this year. The transition was...overrated. If these men are telling themselves that having sex will be some silver bullet that magically solves the problems they have socializing and make their lives better...they're deluded.

I dunno, we've argued less since then, so as i see it getting laid really did help you.