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I still think that a better change than giving all terminators 3 wounds would be for them to reduce all incoming damage by 1 to a minimum of 1. This makes them more durable to 2D but leaves 1 and 3+ the same. They are currently very durable against 1d weapons, and 3w would make them too much so, I think.

Then i think terminators should ignore all penalties for shooting heavy weapons after moving, or using unweildly melee weapons, and they might be in an okayish place.

I think all Marines probably need to drop a point or two, or get some kind of special rule that helps their durability. Something like reducing the AP of weapons by 1 would be nice.

Rhinos also cost way too much. I think 50 points would be an okay starting place. Razor backs should probably be more, though marine vehicles in general have a real issue being shut down in close combat, so I don't feel like they deserve their cost so much. Maybe making it so all vehicles can leave combat and still shoot would help fix that at the current price point.

When I told my friend my primaris marine is 3x the cost of his kabalite he was pretty surprised to say the least.

Basically, with the whole race to the bottom that's going on Marines are majorly lagging behind

My GK wishlist looks awfully similar to Custodes.

They should be better than a standard Marine, especially in CC. More Toughness and Wounds is not out of the question. But those things won't happen.

As I said in the other thread, I think bringing them back as Daemonhunters, with Inquisitorial forces as one unified army (so stratagems and such work for the whole army) would make for a much better army, with more options and a better playing experience.

ANd letting GK Terminators carry Thunder hammers and storm shields. Dammit, I spent some extra money and time making them, I'd like to be able to use them...

lmao at 50 people voting that their SM dex is worse than GK. SM players it's been decades now, when will the downplay stop?



Tyranid players at the bottom of the poll also, with only 1 single vote. Too much honor.

 SHUPPET wrote:
lmao at 50 people voting that their SM dex is worse than GK. SM players it's been decades now, when will the downplay stop?



Tyranid players at the bottom of the poll also, with only 1 single vote. Too much honor.

I mean the SM codex is pretty bad to be fair.

That said, I haven't heard any complaints about the Tyranid codex.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
lmao at 50 people voting that their SM dex is worse than GK. SM players it's been decades now, when will the downplay stop?



Tyranid players at the bottom of the poll also, with only 1 single vote. Too much honor.

I mean the SM codex is pretty bad to be fair.

That said, I haven't heard any complaints about the Tyranid codex.

The Warrior Prime is overcosted.. um.. thats about it.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
lmao at 50 people voting that their SM dex is worse than GK. SM players it's been decades now, when will the downplay stop?



Tyranid players at the bottom of the poll also, with only 1 single vote. Too much honor.

I mean the SM codex is pretty bad to be fair.

My point is, when the SM dex is good, SM players will say its average, or bad. When the SM dex is actually not that great, SM players will sell it as unplayable, and as the poll reflects literally place it as the worst in the game, below GK. I would bet my house that over 9/10 of those SM votes are from SM players.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

That said, I haven't heard any complaints about the Tyranid codex.

The Warrior Prime is overcosted.. um.. thats about it.

I actually think the Prime is in a good spot! Mildly overcosted at most!

Drop pods are overcosted. That's probably the only significantly struggling model in the dex that I've noticed imo.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
lmao at 50 people voting that their SM dex is worse than GK. SM players it's been decades now, when will the downplay stop?



Tyranid players at the bottom of the poll also, with only 1 single vote. Too much honor.

I mean the SM codex is pretty bad to be fair.

That said, I haven't heard any complaints about the Tyranid codex.

The Warrior Prime is overcosted.. um.. thats about it.

A vote for irony? Nids are ballers right now.

I would also like to bring up psycannons. Supposed to be an upgraded assault cannon, more expensive... Math hammers worse damage output against almost all targets. Need 6 shots. Put that in your emails.

 SHUPPET wrote:
lmao at 50 people voting that their SM dex is worse than GK. SM players it's been decades now, when will the downplay stop?



Tyranid players at the bottom of the poll also, with only 1 single vote. Too much honor.

To be fair, a thorough fix of the SM Dex would fix the majority of the issues GK have. They have all of the issues normal Marines have, most notably being slow infantry, expensive Marines and transports, easy to kill infantry, easy to shut down tanks, and having bad basic and special weapon options. They just also pay for force weapons they are terrible with due to only having 1 attack, and deepstrike abilities they can't use like they used to with the new FAQ. Whether or not this is made up for at all by the ability to cast smite seems debatable but unlikely.

If the basic marine Dex was fixed, GK, BA, DA, SW, Chaos, TS, and so on would all benefit because of how much they are based on it.

While slightly true, the Chaos Marines need a different set of fixes compared to the Loyalist Scum. I have issues primarily with the fact that the basic Chaos Marines, who ARE Vets mind you, don't have Vet stats. I'm all for deleting the entry and giving Chosen the Troop slot and Havocs just getting Vet stats. That then only helps if you think Vets are appropriately costed. They theoretically could be with the appropriate fixes to Strategems and the weapon loadouts/Bolter.

At minimum Chosen did get help by having the Chainsword added to their loadout at no additional cost. Now they just need to get to melee...

 Smotejob wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
lmao at 50 people voting that their SM dex is worse than GK. SM players it's been decades now, when will the downplay stop?



Tyranid players at the bottom of the poll also, with only 1 single vote. Too much honor.

I mean the SM codex is pretty bad to be fair.

That said, I haven't heard any complaints about the Tyranid codex.

The Warrior Prime is overcosted.. um.. thats about it.

A vote for irony? Nids are ballers right now.

That's what I'm saying, Nids are in a great spot. And Nid players are too honorable to downplay =P

jcd386 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
lmao at 50 people voting that their SM dex is worse than GK. SM players it's been decades now, when will the downplay stop?



Tyranid players at the bottom of the poll also, with only 1 single vote. Too much honor.

To be fair, a thorough fix of the SM Dex would fix the majority of the issues GK have. They have all of the issues normal Marines have, most notably being slow infantry, expensive Marines and transports, easy to kill infantry, easy to shut down tanks, and having bad basic and special weapon options. They just also pay for force weapons they are terrible with due to only having 1 attack, and deepstrike abilities they can't use like they used to with the new FAQ. Whether or not this is made up for at all by the ability to cast smite seems debatable but unlikely.

If the basic marine Dex was fixed, GK, BA, DA, SW, Chaos, TS, and so on would all benefit because of how much they are based on it.

A fair point honestly. But as it stands, I don't think it's fair to say SM are capable of less than GK, and to vote for it on this poll just adds to memey rep that some SM players have unfortunately gathered for themselves over the years.

Yeah, this is for sure an AMAZING Nids codex, imo the best one so far, sure 4th might have been stronger, but thats b.c of core rules not viability of most units.

On a serious note, there is only 3-4 units that are a bit over costed, and its not even that bad, maybe 10-15% over costed, but thats only b.c the nature of the game and large wounded models act right now.

Compare it to the GK's and its completely Night and Day the love and thought between the two.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Yeah, this is for sure an AMAZING Nids codex, imo the best one so far, sure 4th might have been stronger, but thats b.c of core rules not viability of most units.

On a serious note, there is only 3-4 units that are a bit over costed, and its not even that bad, maybe 10-15% over costed, but thats only b.c the nature of the game and large wounded models act right now.

Compare it to the GK's and its completely Night and Day the love and thought between the two.

It’s not just the Nid codex, death guard and AM got similar love...the lack of thoughtful fluff and incorporation of that fluff into the rules is just as infuriating to GK players as the army generally sucking.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Yeah, this is for sure an AMAZING Nids codex, imo the best one so far, sure 4th might have been stronger, but thats b.c of core rules not viability of most units.

On a serious note, there is only 3-4 units that are a bit over costed, and its not even that bad, maybe 10-15% over costed, but thats only b.c the nature of the game and large wounded models act right now.

Compare it to the GK's and its completely Night and Day the love and thought between the two.

Yep, I'm a Nid main since I started playing, I've never seen this dex so coherent. I think there is a few SLIGHTLY overcosted units, however they have to be careful because a heavy hand when lowering points or buffing in another manner, could easily turn something like Zoanthropes from "rarely ever worth taking" into "take max of every single game" like they almost were in 5th. I definitely have no real complaints about the Nids dex other than the aforementioned one about drop pods being garbage. But that's almost being a little greedy to ask for changes considering the state of other dex, I'll take Nids how it is, and it's been a long time since we've tasted any sort of glory it's not hard to see why we only got the least votes, its hard to imagine anyone being too disappointed about the state of the dex.

Banging this drum again Shuppet? We get it, you're a Nid player and those guys are COOL. Not like those nasty SM players, BOO.

Sheesh.

 grouchoben wrote:
Banging this drum again Shuppet? We get it, you're a Nid player and those guys are COOL. Not like those nasty SM players, BOO.

Sheesh.

You seem to be the one with a problem...

 grouchoben wrote:
Banging this drum again Shuppet? We get it, you're a Nid player and those guys are COOL. Not like those nasty SM players, BOO.

Sheesh.

Uhhhh wat

Space marines have a lot of variability across the chapter tactics as all armies do. There are a lot of players around who bought a whole lotta razorbacks for free shenanigans in 7th formations that are sitting salty right now (i'm one of them) although I voted GK but if you're not the kind of player that says my yellow marines are counts as Raven Guard you can go some small way to understanding those 50...

 Nithaniel wrote:
Space marines have a lot of variability across the chapter tactics as all armies do. There are a lot of players around who bought a whole lotta razorbacks for free shenanigans in 7th formations that are sitting salty right now (i'm one of them) although I voted GK but if you're not the kind of player that says my yellow marines are counts as Raven Guard you can go some small way to understanding those 50...

Yup, I can understand the salt, which is exactly what I'm saying those votes stem from, instead of an objective answer of which dex is currently the weakest.

No problem Amish, I'm just asking if Shup wouldn't mind changing the record. After all, there's a good chance that the difference in how the Codexes have been received might be more to do with their being, as you say, "Night and Day (in) the love and thought between" them, rather than due to faction-dependent personality vices/virtues between players, as Shup like to claim...

____

"SM players can have a meta defining codex and still all you will hear from them is how overrated they are."

"The dex could be so bad that it threw paint stripper over your deployment zone, and SM players would still say that it was literally napalm instead."

"you shouldn't blindly accept anything SM players are saying about their dex, as they are notorious for downplaying it."

"SM players as a whole are a notoriously unreliable source to blindly believe when it comes to the power level of their units."

"lmao at 50 people voting that their SM dex is worse than GK. SM players it's been decades now, when will the downplay stop?"
____

"Tyranid players at the bottom of the poll also, with only 1 single vote. Too much honor."

"Nid players are too honorable to downplay"

– That's all just from this thread and the last one we spoke in. Hence: Sheesh.

When was the last time the ACTUAL marine codex was good? What were marines without skyhammer or gladius last edition? Scatterlaser fodder, that's what.

 grouchoben wrote:
No problem Amish, I'm just asking if Shup wouldn't mind changing the record. After all, there's a good chance that the difference in how the Codexes have been received might be more to do with their being, as you say, "Night and Day (in) the love and thought between" them, rather than due to faction-dependent personality vices/virtues between players, as Shup like to claim...

____

"SM players can have a meta defining codex and still all you will hear from them is how overrated they are."

"The dex could be so bad that it threw paint stripper over your deployment zone, and SM players would still say that it was literally napalm instead."

"you shouldn't blindly accept anything SM players are saying about their dex, as they are notorious for downplaying it."

"SM players as a whole are a notoriously unreliable source to blindly believe when it comes to the power level of their units."

"lmao at 50 people voting that their SM dex is worse than GK. SM players it's been decades now, when will the downplay stop?"
____

"Tyranid players at the bottom of the poll also, with only 1 single vote. Too much honor."

"Nid players are too honorable to downplay"

– That's all just from this thread and the last one we spoke in. Hence: Sheesh.

I've been a member of this site for 5 years. 5.

I have over 2000 posts, on a broad range of subjects.

In that time I've mentioned SM downplay on two separate occasions. Including this time, making it the second time ever.

I'd literally even forgotten about that thread from a while back. You literally just took the time to go through every single post I had in that thread and found 4 sentences you could post, completely devoid of any context, and ignoring the fact they were almost all responses to an argument you guys dragged me into over your salt concerning my initial post over the SM dex never being as bad as some SM players will tell you.

You had guys literally on that same page saying that Gladius was overrated, was bad, people just didn't know how to play against it properly, and it only saw play because it was the best option SM dex had to work with. My responses to that thread were not outlandish, to say the least.

This narrative that I keep "beating the drum" is entirely salt-driven. My post in here was mostly memey as you can tell by the samurai language and the emojis, especially the parts about the Nid players



And this narrative that I constantly give props to Nid players? Lol the they would laugh you out the door if you made that statement in our tactics thread not long ago. I CRUCIFIED the Nid community for its downplay during 6th and 7th, that's my own race. I said this in the last thread which you just went digging through, so I know you already knew this - but did you quote any of that though?

No, you didn't because that wouldn't suit your narrative. You saw the words "Space Marine" and "downplay" in the same sentence and went into tunnel vision just like last time. As the other guy said - seems like the problem is you.

The more you do this, the more it cements my belief about the whining. This is some highschool girl gak, nobody else does this

Martel732 wrote:
When was the last time the ACTUAL marine codex was good? What were marines without skyhammer or gladius last edition? Scatterlaser fodder, that's what.

The Gladius was in the codex,s o therefore it is marines. Thats like saying Eldar codex wasnt really good b.c Scatter Lasers were undercosted.

Martel732 wrote:
When was the last time the ACTUAL marine codex was good? What were marines without skyhammer or gladius last edition? Scatterlaser fodder, that's what.

They weren't terrible in 5th, though space wolves did it better.

I don't think space marine players (myself included) want their book to be the best one. I really want all books to be as close as possible. However I also think it's pretty clear that the marine book has a number of serious issues, which are then inherited by all of the other power armor books, which is something like half the armies out there. This seems objectively bad for the game to me.

jcd386 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
When was the last time the ACTUAL marine codex was good? What were marines without skyhammer or gladius last edition? Scatterlaser fodder, that's what.

They weren't terrible in 5th, though space wolves did it better.

I don't think space marine players (myself included) want their book to be the best one. I really want all books to be as close as possible. However I also think it's pretty clear that the marine book has a number of serious issues, which are then inherited by all of the other power armor books, which is something like half the armies out there. This seems objectively bad for the game to me.

FWIW, I agree right now about the SM dex being undertuned, I don't think every PA book is struggling by transference though., I think we can look at them all individually and say some are in a more than competent state (although even they could probably use some better internal balance and a bit more freedom in unit choice to compete).

I'm really hoping GW just builds ahead with what we have right now and tunes up some of the dexes in need of it, but doesn't give a crazy rewrite to the one she in a good state internally just to shake up people's model purchasing, like they used to do all the time. What do we think is the likelihood of them actually having moved past that tactic? I really hope we do, sick of them trying to start balance from scratch every year or two.

Back to the original post, Grey Knights are not as bad as some of the people here seem to think. Their selection of viable units is much smaller than most codexes, but with a little out-of-codex support you can absolutely make them viable. Their selection of psychic powers is the best in the imperium, and the blanket +1 is brutal. Dreadknights are still absolute monsters. Purgation squads are continuously overlooked for reasons that boggle the mind, psilencers are incredible for the points. Draigo is a badass, and Strike Squads are still very viable. A GK battalion, guard battalion, and GK spearhead is actually a good competitive army, you just have to keep your power level balanced and have a guard warlord battery for CPs. A local grey knight player has been able to use this template to keep himself relevant in a very competitive meta, he's managed to get top 3 in three consecutive GTs in 8th edition, including an 80 man major in april.

GK are absolutely unbalanced as a codex, vast swathes of their units are bad and there are only a few units I would take in a competitive list, they could really use points adjustments in the next CA, but the codex is not even close to dead.

You seem to be missing the point. The question is limiting choices to one codex and asking which codex makes the worst army.

Purgation squads aren't overlooked. They just aren't worth the points. You have to pay a CP to DS them or buy a transport for them to get into range to use the psker power (3" range). Even then it's almost impossible for them to end up in range of the unit that you're aiming to destroy.

Psilencers are the best weapon that GK have. That's been know since page 9 of the tactics thread. But, being the best weapon in a codex doesn't mean anything in a meta where you are either losing your melee weapon (PAGK) and/or suffering a -1 to hit for moving and usually only wounding on 5+. And that doesn't include that it has a ridiculously short range for a heavy weapon (24").

 jifel wrote:
Back to the original post, Grey Knights are not as bad as some of the people here seem to think. Their selection of viable units is much smaller than most codexes, but with a little out-of-codex support you can absolutely make them viable. Their selection of psychic powers is the best in the imperium, and the blanket +1 is brutal. Dreadknights are still absolute monsters. Purgation squads are continuously overlooked for reasons that boggle the mind, psilencers are incredible for the points. Draigo is a badass, and Strike Squads are still very viable. A GK battalion, guard battalion, and GK spearhead is actually a good competitive army, you just have to keep your power level balanced and have a guard warlord battery for CPs. A local grey knight player has been able to use this template to keep himself relevant in a very competitive meta, he's managed to get top 3 in three consecutive GTs in 8th edition, including an 80 man major in april.

GK are absolutely unbalanced as a codex, vast swathes of their units are bad and there are only a few units I would take in a competitive list, they could really use points adjustments in the next CA, but the codex is not even close to dead.

I've mostly disengaged from GK but this is just hyperbole. Your meta is honestly threatened by 24" 0 AP guns? You have a hard time killing T6 4++ (two lucky ones at 3++)?

You know what would smash these? Basically any standard competitive list. Captain Slamguinus can delete a DKGM even with a 3++ no problem. Custodes bikers outrange those Psilencers thanks to their huge movement and will simply bury them under weight of hurricane bolters (while shrugging off return fire with a 2+). Tesseract Vaults, particularly the variant running 3 of them, deal so many mortal wounds no GK can get within spitting distance of them without evaporating.

Triple Manticores will annihilate those Strike Squads before they come anywhere close to getting through chaff. Thousand Sons are actually better Pskers who can do real damage with a real smite when they Pierce the GK defenses. GK have almost no access to the high strength fire to wound an Imperial Knight on better than 5's (while have you even seen what an Avenger Gatling Cannon does to Strike Squads or stomps to a Dreadknight?). The list just goes on. Don't even get started on how a GK should deal with Tau.

If your meta is having a hard time with a majority GK list then it's just not fielding very competitive lists. Which is fine, but when we say viable we mean can work at the top tables against serious crunch lists.

Martel732 wrote:
When was the last time the ACTUAL marine codex was good? What were marines without skyhammer or gladius last edition? Scatterlaser fodder, that's what.

7th. You know this. Everyone knows this. Arguing anything to the contrary for any reason would be an insult to the intelligence of this board.

Now, you can make the argument and distinction between a good codex and strong codex, which can have more nuance, but even then, 7th marines were one of the better internally balanced books, with lots of strong formations and boosts, and were externally very powerful. All elements of a top tier book.

I could complain about the Tyranid codex, but in the context of "which army is the worst," that is pointless. Yes there are overcosted units and some units are clearly bad. Some stratagems and hive fleets are total garbage, too (Hydra, i'm looking at you). There is NO question that Tyranids are not the worst army. Same for Guard, Tau, and a bunch of other armies that have votes that shouldn't.