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Missile isn't 600 pts. And getting 5 wounds on d6 is more like 55. Guess where reroll will be used if need be? And some targets hate getting even 2-3 wounds even if they survive.

And it's not 600pts. And it's not even primary use for knight or even secondary. It's nice to have bonus

tneva82 wrote:
Missile isn't 600 pts. And getting 5 wounds on d6 is more like 55. Guess where reroll will be used if need be? And some targets hate getting even 2-3 wounds even if they survive.

And it's not 600pts. And it's not even primary use for knight or even secondary. It's nice to have bonus

I’d rather have another autocannon turret than the Missiles, even at 2d3 shots it’s still more reliable.

SJ

tneva82 wrote:
Missile isn't 600 pts. And getting 5 wounds on d6 is more like 55. Guess where reroll will be used if need be? And some targets hate getting even 2-3 wounds even if they survive.

And it's not 600pts. And it's not even primary use for knight or even secondary. It's nice to have bonus

Why take it though, i can take 2 vindicare assassins for cheaper and have them be more effective at character popping.

The 18” 3d6 str 7 -2ap dmg 2, re-roll to wound flamer relic is much more of a meta changer... for melee oriented armies. I think all IK lists will field this weapon in the front.

Northern85Star wrote:
The 18” 3d6 str 7 -2ap dmg 2, re-roll to wound flamer relic is much more of a meta changer... for melee oriented armies. I think all IK lists will field this weapon in the front.

And it will be the first to die from a shadow sword in a single round of shooting.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

Northern85Star wrote:
The 18” 3d6 str 7 -2ap dmg 2, re-roll to wound flamer relic is much more of a meta changer... for melee oriented armies. I think all IK lists will field this weapon in the front.

And it will be the first to die from a shadow sword in a single round of shooting.

Tau, necrons and orks would like to know how they field shadowswords. Not to mention knights stand a good chance of getting first turn and alpha striking down that shadowsword or any similar threat easily.
Even the most marine lists would struggle against a knights list, but thats not exactlly out of charictor with 8th edition.

Just because one hardish counter exsist doesn mean the codex is dead.

Ice_can wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

Northern85Star wrote:
The 18” 3d6 str 7 -2ap dmg 2, re-roll to wound flamer relic is much more of a meta changer... for melee oriented armies. I think all IK lists will field this weapon in the front.

And it will be the first to die from a shadow sword in a single round of shooting.

Tau, necrons and orks would like to know how they field shadowswords. Not to mention knights stand a good chance of getting first turn and alpha striking down that shadowsword or any similar threat easily.
Even the most marine lists would struggle against a knights list, but thats not exactlly out of charictor with 8th edition.

Just because one hardish counter exsist doesn mean the codex is dead.

*laughs in tallaran as he power slides onto the board and avoids alpha strike*

and again, shadow sword is 200 point cheaper then the big boy knight. Ill take 2 of them, i can just obliterate and or cripple a knight into uselessness.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

Northern85Star wrote:
The 18” 3d6 str 7 -2ap dmg 2, re-roll to wound flamer relic is much more of a meta changer... for melee oriented armies. I think all IK lists will field this weapon in the front.

And it will be the first to die from a shadow sword in a single round of shooting.

Tau, necrons and orks would like to know how they field shadowswords. Not to mention knights stand a good chance of getting first turn and alpha striking down that shadowsword or any similar threat easily.
Even the most marine lists would struggle against a knights list, but thats not exactlly out of charictor with 8th edition.

Just because one hardish counter exsist doesn mean the codex is dead.

*laughs in tallaran as he power slides onto the board and avoids alpha strike*

and again, shadow sword is 200 point cheaper then the big boy knight. Ill take 2 of them, i can just obliterate and or cripple a knight into uselessness.

Where are you getting a 350 point shadowswords?
The big knights are 550ish range according to codex review vids and they have a 5++ which will be a 4++ and potentialy a 3++. You really believe a shadowsword can do 28wounds against that in a single turn?

Ice_can wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

Northern85Star wrote:
The 18” 3d6 str 7 -2ap dmg 2, re-roll to wound flamer relic is much more of a meta changer... for melee oriented armies. I think all IK lists will field this weapon in the front.

And it will be the first to die from a shadow sword in a single round of shooting.

Tau, necrons and orks would like to know how they field shadowswords. Not to mention knights stand a good chance of getting first turn and alpha striking down that shadowsword or any similar threat easily.
Even the most marine lists would struggle against a knights list, but thats not exactlly out of charictor with 8th edition.

Just because one hardish counter exsist doesn mean the codex is dead.

*laughs in tallaran as he power slides onto the board and avoids alpha strike*

and again, shadow sword is 200 point cheaper then the big boy knight. Ill take 2 of them, i can just obliterate and or cripple a knight into uselessness.

Where are you getting a 350 point shadowswords?
The big knights are 550ish range according to codex review vids and they have a 5++ which will be a 4++ and potentialy a 3++. You really believe a shadowsword can do 28wounds against that in a single turn?

no base shadow sword is 404 points. Im hearing everywhere the big boy knights are 600 points. The shadow sword does not need to do 28 wounds, just needs to do 14 to drop it a profile then its gimped not to metion as i said, i can easy fit 2 shadow swords into a list, and drop knights. Getting it to a 3++ is great but look how many of your CP you will be spending to do that.

I want knights to be good, but they are just to expensive for what they bring to the table.

tneva82 wrote:
Missile isn't 600 pts. And getting 5 wounds on d6 is more like 55. Guess where reroll will be used if need be? And some targets hate getting even 2-3 wounds even if they survive.

And it's not 600pts. And it's not even primary use for knight or even secondary. It's nice to have bonus

People keep saying this, and it's the wrong way to look at it. How many points must you field before you have the OPTION of paying for two of these missiles? 600+ points. Once you break that threshold, then for another X amount of points, you can replace the TL Battle Cannons with two of these missiles that can only be fired once per turn, no matter how many you buy. I have no idea why you would ever purchase more than six, but apparently you can in the codex. And rumors say you can bring along a 200 point terrain piece that will allow you to reload the missiles as long as you don't move or shoot for the previous turn.

No, it's not 600 points. It's probably something like 50 points that you will spend ALL your Command Points in one turn to make it effective. 8th edition makes no distinction between "Primary Weapon" and "Secondary Weapon". If the model has multiple weapons, it can shoot ALL OF THEM unless some other rule says otherwise. So which is better? A one shot wonder missile that costs extra points and will burn all your CP's and still have a chance of failure, or a TL Battle Cannon that can fire every turn and requires no CP's to use?

"Nice to have" is a Power fist on a Character model. Or Melta Bombs, or upgrading a heavy bolter to an assault cannon. A Hunter-Killer missile is a nice to have. Nice to have doesn't require you to spend more points on an already expensive model and then spend 2-4 Command Points and a stratagem on top of it to make it work. The player has to make the determination that the TL Battle Cannons > One Shot Wonder Missile for X more points. Hint: It's not.

If I'm playing a 2,000 point game and the best I can do is 1900 points due to the way the army construction works out for a Knight list, then I might consider taking one of these Missile Launchers as a threat to my opponent, with no intention of ever using it to snipe his Warlord. I'd use it on a unit that is about to engage a key friendly unit. Maybe a tank low on HP. Even then, it would be more of a throw away gesture then anything else, and I wouldn't expect it to do anything. I especially would not take a Stratagem for it unless there was nothing else worth taking, or spend more than 1 Command Point on it with as few CP's as it's looking like the Knights will get.

I would advance the idea that any army that relies on a single model with less then six wounds to carry the whole army is a very poorly made army.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

Northern85Star wrote:
The 18” 3d6 str 7 -2ap dmg 2, re-roll to wound flamer relic is much more of a meta changer... for melee oriented armies. I think all IK lists will field this weapon in the front.

And it will be the first to die from a shadow sword in a single round of shooting.

Tau, necrons and orks would like to know how they field shadowswords. Not to mention knights stand a good chance of getting first turn and alpha striking down that shadowsword or any similar threat easily.
Even the most marine lists would struggle against a knights list, but thats not exactlly out of charictor with 8th edition.

Just because one hardish counter exsist doesn mean the codex is dead.

*laughs in tallaran as he power slides onto the board and avoids alpha strike*

and again, shadow sword is 200 point cheaper then the big boy knight. Ill take 2 of them, i can just obliterate and or cripple a knight into uselessness.

Where are you getting a 350 point shadowswords?
The big knights are 550ish range according to codex review vids and they have a 5++ which will be a 4++ and potentialy a 3++. You really believe a shadowsword can do 28wounds against that in a single turn?

no base shadow sword is 404 points. Im hearing everywhere the big boy knights are 600 points. The shadow sword does not need to do 28 wounds, just needs to do 14 to drop it a profile then its gimped not to metion as i said, i can easy fit 2 shadow swords into a list, and drop knights. Getting it to a 3++ is great but look how many of your CP you will be spending to do that.

I want knights to be good, but they are just to expensive for what they bring to the table.

depends on which way the knight player does it and videos with points are saying sub 600pts for the most expensive version of big knight cheapest config is supposedly 530ish.

In a pure Knight list you are not going to have the CP to spam missiles - and the probability of it going off even with a reroll is low anyway. I thought they might doll out the CP (like, 3 CP per big knight or something) but its clear they don't.

But off the top of my head cheapest IG Brigade with CP farm, 3 Custodes Bike Captains & a Valiant is going to be very close to 1750 points will have plenty of CP to burn. Could potentially be an interesting army if you wanted to go that route. 2 CP to potentially get first turn warlord is almost certainly worth a go.

Agree that the flamer relic is possibly an auto-take. Its good versus everything and borders on making you unchargeable.

Not really seeing why the Shadowsword is the terror of the earth.
6*2/3*35/36*1/2*7=13.6 wounds.
Good chance of doing worse than this - and the Knight is almost certainly going to be Hawkshroud, so not degraded until its on 6 wounds (I think?).

I mean sure you can take 3 and more or less guarantee killing a Knight a turn. Problem is your next game is going to be against a guy with nothing worth shooting a volcano cannon at. Enjoy killing 3 Orks a turn for 404 points.

Tbh I'm so not convinced on these missiles that I'm kind of sad to see the boxes will each contain 2 turret and 2 missiles, meaning you can't take 3 turrets if you buy only one.

Shadowssord has 6 shots, on average, hitting on 3s. 4 hits, wounding on 2s rerolling, for 35/9. 5+ save makes that 70/27, times 7 for damage, or 490/27. Decimals, that is 18.15.

No idea where you got 13.6 from.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Shadowssord has 6 shots, on average, hitting on 3s. 4 hits, wounding on 2s rerolling, for 35/9. 5+ save makes that 70/27, times 7 for damage, or 490/27. Decimals, that is 18.15.

No idea where you got 13.6 from.

Because the Knight player is definitely going to use rotate ion shields when you target him with a volcano cannon to get a 4++. At least in the first couple of turns.
6*2/3*35/36*1/2=35/18. Times 7=13.61.

Sure you can play games with this, targeting one knight with the volcano cannon, and one knight with another - or loads of lascannons/basilisks/whatever - but I am not convinced you can do that and have an especially competitive army. Its just an anti-Knight skew of your own.

And there is a good chance they will have ion bulkwark for a natural 4++ so they will get a 3++. Now you are only doing 9.07 wounds.
This is possibly an abuse of statistics - since there is clearly upside too - but if you suffer 4 wounds you have a 20% chance not to fail a single 3++. I might be murdering the maths - but I think this increases to 45%~ if you burn another CP to reroll one failure (obviously the Shadowsword player could burn a CP to get more shots/hits.)

In a pure knight build you are going to run out of CPs fast doing all this - but I don't think this scenario is unreasonable in an Imperial soup list where CPs are plentiful, recharging and you are going to defend that castellan/valiant.