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You can't have a discussion about whether this is a meta changer without bringing the cos to wield it into the discussion.

 Nithaniel wrote:
You can't have a discussion about whether this is a meta changer without bringing the cos to wield it into the discussion.

Yes, but at the same time you can't call it worthless if it also has the ability to meta change in other ways. For example, he 1 shots your Ork character Mek with kff and then with his other weapons, decimates your entire battle wagon force that has now lost its 5+invuln. Therefore, this weapon has changed the meta by working together with the other 700pts worth of weapons.

 Nithaniel wrote:
You can't have a discussion about whether this is a meta changer without bringing the cos to wield it into the discussion.

Yes. And then you need to factor in what ELSE it provides. You don't take those big knights for the missile. They aren't even primaries of the knight! Secondaries. Read that. S.e.c.o.n.d.a.r.y. It's support weapon of the knight.

So you can't go "600-650 pts(supposedly you can field 3 of those big knights in 1850 pts list), missile sucks!". Missile might suck but it's not because it's 600-700 which it isn't. That 600-650 gives you tons of other use. Snipe the weirdboy with da jump that orks live by. Then blow up that battlewagon with mini volcano cannon. And plasma pays world of hurt to something else while other secondaries thin infantry while being invulnerable to ork shooting. If orks comes close...Well still likely tossing 12 attacks that will kill boyz on hit on 2+ while stepping out of combats and still shoot&charge. Orks won't like any of that and losing weirdboys really hurt. If those knights comes common orks are forced to max out on 3 weirdboys fast.

If the knight is worth taking as a package then you'll see missiles and if they are common enough and do something they are changing meta. Not because missile is worth 600-650 pts but because the knight with missile is worth it.

Otherwise I complain my heavy bolter on shadowsword sucks because I need to pay 400 pts for it. Give me assault 10 S10 -4 D6 stats for them! Surely I deserve that for 400 pts!

Looking at missile without point cost is dishonest but equally dishonest if not even more is looking point cost without looking at everything it gives for you.

tneva82 wrote:
Yeah orks are in similar boat as without several of our support characters orks gets decked.

OTOH knights looks to be rather vulnerable against hordes which orks currently are(they don't have even close of viable non-horde build) so maybe that evens out? Plus of course orks still are to get their own codex so new codex maybe reduces their dependance on holy trio of da jump/kff/painboy.

This isn't new though, at least not for me. Tzeench daemons and TS can already snipe 4W support characters at will, many craftworld players have three units of snipers for their battalion and then there is that eldar warlord trait which allows an autarch with a reaper launcher to target characters at will.

Considering how this missile stops doing anything useful once all support characters are down or the knights degrades to BS4 or you have fired your two missiles, I think most people would rather take the siege breaker cannons, much like how other character-sniping options aren't picked over better or cheaper options that perform well against all kinds of units.

 Jidmah wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Yeah orks are in similar boat as without several of our support characters orks gets decked.

OTOH knights looks to be rather vulnerable against hordes which orks currently are(they don't have even close of viable non-horde build) so maybe that evens out? Plus of course orks still are to get their own codex so new codex maybe reduces their dependance on holy trio of da jump/kff/painboy.

This isn't new though, at least not for me. Tzeench daemons and TS can already snipe 4W support characters at will, many craftworld players have three units of snipers for their battalion and then there is that eldar warlord trait which allows an autarch with a reaper launcher to target characters at will.

Considering how this missile stops doing anything useful once all support characters are down or the knights degrades to BS4 or you have fired your two missiles, I think most people would rather take the siege breaker cannons, much like how other character-sniping options aren't picked over better or cheaper options that perform well against all kinds of units.

Don't know about tzeentch. For eldars yeah snipers are annoying but they aren't automatic death dealer(how many you need to kill in average?) and crucially they need LOS. Terrain here often allows hiding one character from LOS if I'm carefull. This one I'm 100% at the mercy of the opponent's dices period.

Not to mention snipers are bit easier to take out for orks than that knight. Yesterday had space wolf snipers. I actually got them killed so had to survive 8 sniper shots which I did. This knight? Only way to do that is basically get into close combat with enough stuff that I tear it apart. Frankly not confident I CAN do that so ork best bet might be ignore it.

It's 2 missiles. That's 2 turn. Most games don't really go on further than 3 turns especially meaningfully. 8th ed is alpha strike game. 2 batteries of guns, 1 battery of missiles.

 Jidmah wrote:


Considering how this missile stops doing anything useful once all support characters are down or the knights degrades to BS4 or you have fired your two missiles, I think most people would rather take the siege breaker cannons, much like how other character-sniping options aren't picked over better or cheaper options that perform well against all kinds of units.

This is exactly it. The strength of the missile can be judged in context of what it might replace. But the OP is suggesting (or asking) that the existence of its rules changes the meta. This being that character sniping is valuable due to the impact that characters have. I think it is a meta changer but its impact is probably insignificant to the major competitive armies (Vect). I'm already thinking of list ideas with this and a vindicare or two which will really be dangerous. Not that you're even guaranteed to take out characters but that combo will do it well.

Any tournament list thats capable of taking out a Primarch in one turn will be dangerous to this knight and it probably won't survive 4 turns to really be impactful with shieldbreakers so the other options are probably better for dealing with the threats to the knight.

Definitely not a meta changer. It's a one shot weapon on a model that will not appear in the vast majority of games of 40k.

^^^ exactly - though it looks like the super knight might have the option to take the 1 use missles over the top missle launcher (I think it's a heavy 3 missle) It might be better off to save points as a 3 shot crack missile isn't that great when you already have 6 other heavy weapons. Keeping cost low might be preferable.

 Nithaniel wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:


Considering how this missile stops doing anything useful once all support characters are down or the knights degrades to BS4 or you have fired your two missiles, I think most people would rather take the siege breaker cannons, much like how other character-sniping options aren't picked over better or cheaper options that perform well against all kinds of units.

This is exactly it. The strength of the missile can be judged in context of what it might replace. But the OP is suggesting (or asking) that the existence of its rules changes the meta. This being that character sniping is valuable due to the impact that characters have. I think it is a meta changer but its impact is probably insignificant to the major competitive armies (Vect). I'm already thinking of list ideas with this and a vindicare or two which will really be dangerous. Not that you're even guaranteed to take out characters but that combo will do it well.

Any tournament list thats capable of taking out a Primarch in one turn will be dangerous to this knight and it probably won't survive 4 turns to really be impactful with shieldbreakers so the other options are probably better for dealing with the threats to the knight.

4 turns? Games are over by turn 4. Doesn't need to survive 4 turns. You don't even bring 4+ missiles for it. If you plan on spending more than 2 turns killing with something or killing something it's flawed plan to begin with.

Two and Autocannons might be the best bet, since either it or your prime targets will be dead, and a knight army wont have more than 6-9 cp.

Yeah I figure that's going to be be my default loadout for knights. Though magnets ensure I can field any if I so choose. But frankly if I feel like I need more missiles I might be looking at second knight first. Alpha, alpha, alpha. 4 turns is 2 turns too much minimum in 8th ed.

Assuming your playing a 2k game you have the inevitable guard CP farm for 195 points, 2 of these at 600 and a mini knight ar 160 leaves just shy of 450 for dawneagle dbags.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
Definitely not a meta changer. It's a one shot weapon on a model that will not appear in the vast majority of games of 40k.

If anything I am constantly impressed at the ability for tournament players to afford these things. Locally it might not be an issue, but if it shakes out we'll see a bunch of these at the next GT.

Not to mention that the terrain presumably gives it max shots for ~200 points.

tneva82 wrote:
For eldars yeah snipers are annoying but they aren't automatic death dealer(how many you need to kill in average?)

15 path finders will kill one warphead each turn. Add in the sniping autarch and they can reliably kill KFF meks and pain boyz as well.

and crucially they need LOS. Terrain here often allows hiding one character from LOS if I'm carefull.

Sure, then they just kill another one. Especially the KFF is not going to be out of LOS a whole lot, and warpheads can't smite without LOS. And even if you do hide them out of LOS, a hemlock jumps next to the character and just kills it. Eldar have absolutely no problem wiping two support characters per turn.

This one I'm 100% at the mercy of the opponent's dices period.

This one is complete garbage compared to TS psychic powers. Magnus (or any combination of TS psykers) can Infernal Gaze/Bolt of Change/Firestorm of Tzeench any character of their choice at 24" and cause an average of six mortal wounds to it.
Two vindicares also vastly outperform that missile and yet see no play whatsoever.
Both for exactly zero CP and at least 200 points less than the knight.

Not to mention snipers are bit easier to take out for orks than that knight. Yesterday had space wolf snipers. I actually got them killed so had to survive 8 sniper shots which I did. This knight? Only way to do that is basically get into close combat with enough stuff that I tear it apart. Frankly not confident I CAN do that so ork best bet might be ignore it.

It's 2 missiles. That's 2 turn. Most games don't really go on further than 3 turns especially meaningfully. 8th ed is alpha strike game. 2 batteries of guns, 1 battery of missiles.

You really need to decide. Either the game ends after turn 2, then orks can never kill anything that's not sitting out front, or losing a weapon system by turn 3 matters.
If games end by turn 2, then you cannot handle properly wrapped snipers either.

You're really making mountains out of molehills here. The thing you are afraid of is already all over the game.

There's the rumour the "knight terrain" lets you "reload" these missles. So if you have a Castellan you can just sit back and set up a kill zone and let the other knights cover the blind spots

No idea whether it will be a meta-changer, but it does seem a little nuts.

Most other armies get to plink away at enemy characters with relatively weak sniper rifles or maybe short-range psychic powers.

This basically lets you call an orbital bombardment on a character. S10 AP-4 d6 wounds. And it can be done from the other side of the table. And it ignores invulnerable saves. And it ignores Los.

Having all of those just seems too much for one weapon.

 vipoid wrote:
No idea whether it will be a meta-changer, but it does seem a little nuts.

Most other armies get to plink away at enemy characters with relatively weak sniper rifles or maybe short-range psychic powers.

This basically lets you call an orbital bombardment on a character. S10 AP-4 d6 wounds. And it can be done from the other side of the table. And it ignores invulnerable saves. And it ignores Los.

Having all of those just seems too much for one weapon.

It will eat CP really fast. Especially when you'll want to rotate ion shields, etc. Of course there are easy ways around that problem, too.

 vipoid wrote:
No idea whether it will be a meta-changer, but it does seem a little nuts.

Most other armies get to plink away at enemy characters with relatively weak sniper rifles or maybe short-range psychic powers.

This basically lets you call an orbital bombardment on a character. S10 AP-4 d6 wounds. And it can be done from the other side of the table. And it ignores invulnerable saves. And it ignores Los.

Having all of those just seems too much for one weapon.

I think it has enough random variables that it won't be too hard to deal with. Characters with 4 wounds or less are much more vulnerable and CC characters that really want their full wound totals going into CC will be most bothered by it. However - when you really think about it it's not much better than what other sniper units do without command points required. A 9 (more likely 3 -3 mans) man tau snipe drone unit is capable of firing 18 shots at 3+ to hit with reroll 1's from a character and drone controller at 24". So figure 3 mortal wounds and 9-11 saves on t4 unit. It generates a little more damage it seems and if you use the tau +1 to wound stratagem you can gib any character you want at 24" no problem at all.

My initial impression is - this is cool but not too powerful.

 Xenomancers wrote:

I think it has enough random variables that it won't be too hard to deal with. Characters with 4 wounds or less are much more vulnerable and CC characters that really want their full wound totals going into CC will be most bothered by it. However - when you really think about it it's not much better than what other sniper units do without command points required. A 9 (more likely 3 -3 mans) man tau snipe drone unit is capable of firing 18 shots at 3+ to hit with reroll 1's from a character and drone controller at 24". So figure 3 mortal wounds and 9-11 saves on t4 unit. It generates a little more damage it seems and if you use the tau +1 to wound stratagem you can gib any character you want at 24" no problem at all.

My initial impression is - this is cool but not too powerful.

That would use up all of your slots for heavies in a detachment as well as needing to get to within 24" while only being T4.

Too random to be a meta warping weapon IMO, but it sure seems like a huge NPE tool.

 lolman1c wrote:

 Nithaniel wrote:
You can't have a discussion about whether this is a meta changer without bringing the cos to wield it into the discussion.

Yes, but at the same time you can't call it worthless if it also has the ability to meta change in other ways. For example, he 1 shots your Ork character Mek with kff and then with his other weapons, decimates your entire battle wagon force that has now lost its 5+invuln. Therefore, this weapon has changed the meta by working together with the other 700pts worth of weapons.

That's not meta changing because statistically it won't one shot anything with 4 or more wounds. Given that tournaments span 4+ games the chance that it happens once or twice over 6 games is not meta changing. Things that change the meta are reliable. This is like building an army where if you go first you likely win, but if you go second you likely lose, which over 4+ games is bad. However the odds of one shotting a character are worse than the odds of going firstm

 lolman1c wrote:
You can only fire it once per game. Also, why not just pick the sniepr who has the exsact same weapon basically?

It comes with 4.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

I think it has enough random variables that it won't be too hard to deal with. Characters with 4 wounds or less are much more vulnerable and CC characters that really want their full wound totals going into CC will be most bothered by it. However - when you really think about it it's not much better than what other sniper units do without command points required. A 9 (more likely 3 -3 mans) man tau snipe drone unit is capable of firing 18 shots at 3+ to hit with reroll 1's from a character and drone controller at 24". So figure 3 mortal wounds and 9-11 saves on t4 unit. It generates a little more damage it seems and if you use the tau +1 to wound stratagem you can gib any character you want at 24" no problem at all.

My initial impression is - this is cool but not too powerful.

That would use up all of your slots for heavies in a detachment as well as needing to get to within 24" while only being T4.

Tau have basically unlimited HS slots. 3 battalions is standard at 2000. They are T4 with -1 to hit. Not exactly easy to kill off.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Tyel wrote:

 greyknight12 wrote:
Most of the rumors have this missile mounted on a platform that costs around 600-700 points, so it's unlikely to make that much of a difference. Over the course of a game killing RG might be worthwhile, but most other support characters either a) travel in packs (like AM) or b) only really matter for one turn (like Custodes). And specifically in the case of RG and his gunline, a knight is pretty easy to remove in a turn.

I might be missing something, there are probably perks and stratagems - but 700 points doesn't buy you the defensive stats of 2.5 Predators with a moderate invul.

Cards on the table - I don't like knights, I kind of like the fact they suck and so don't tend to appear on tables - but I can't believe GW would do that.
Leaving aside a calculation on damage, what is a loaded out Storm Surge? Around 400 points? I guess you can say 8 more wounds, one point more toughness, but I am not seeing it.

This new super knight is going to cost at least 700 points. Storm surges cost 400ish depending on build but it has no where near the firepower of this knight - it's only t7 with 0 close combat ability too.

I think the preferred build for the super knight with be 4 mini battle cannons super flamer and super plasma.

Current rumors say the super knight will be about 615, not 700. See News and Rumor thread.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

I think it has enough random variables that it won't be too hard to deal with. Characters with 4 wounds or less are much more vulnerable and CC characters that really want their full wound totals going into CC will be most bothered by it. However - when you really think about it it's not much better than what other sniper units do without command points required. A 9 (more likely 3 -3 mans) man tau snipe drone unit is capable of firing 18 shots at 3+ to hit with reroll 1's from a character and drone controller at 24". So figure 3 mortal wounds and 9-11 saves on t4 unit. It generates a little more damage it seems and if you use the tau +1 to wound stratagem you can gib any character you want at 24" no problem at all.

My initial impression is - this is cool but not too powerful.

That would use up all of your slots for heavies in a detachment as well as needing to get to within 24" while only being T4.

Tau have basically unlimited HS slots. 3 battalions is standard at 2000. They are T4 with -1 to hit. Not exactly easy to kill off.

I dunno, my Storm Shield Custodian Guard seem pretty easy to clean up with T5 3W 2+/3++ and -1 to Hit. T4 with -1 doesn't seem so bad.

On topic with the missile, I think it'll adjust the meta, but I don't think it oes so far as to break it or anything.

Ugh. 8th edition rules are just face palm after face palm.

The new Knight codex is looking bad, like GW is actively trying to make people avoid building Knight armies.

Can only get CP if you take at least 3 Questoris/Dominus Knights in a SHD means an all Knight army is looking at 6 cp at best rather than the 9 cp we can do now without the codex. This also appears to be the only way to get a Warlord or use stratagems.

It appears that GW lied to us about Armigers, as they cannot be used to get CP from a SHD. In Forgebane, GW specifically stated that we can take 3 Armigers to get 3 CP.

The new terrain piece has garbage rules, making it worthless to take. You have to give up movement and shooting for a turn to get a benefit from it on the next turn.

/sigh

SJ

Nope this wont change anything, reason being.
A) you can only shoot one a turn
B) it does D6 damage. D6 damage weapons are way to unreliable. you have a 33% chance to 1 shot a character, but a a66% chance to only scare him.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The only way the knight codex is going to be worth even looking at is if knights drop by 100 points. Other wise, they are gonna be gak

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
The new Knight codex is looking bad, like GW is actively trying to make people avoid building Knight armies.

Can only get CP if you take at least 3 Questoris/Dominus Knights in a SHD means an all Knight army is looking at 6 cp at best rather than the 9 cp we can do now without the codex. This also appears to be the only way to get a Warlord or use stratagems.

It appears that GW lied to us about Armigers, as they cannot be used to get CP from a SHD. In Forgebane, GW specifically stated that we can take 3 Armigers to get 3 CP.

The new terrain piece has garbage rules, making it worthless to take. You have to give up movement and shooting for a turn to get a benefit from it on the next turn.

/sigh

SJ

The knights codex isn't bad, it's got some seriously powerful units and point's drops across the board.

The armiger's having some clauses for their use in detachments is an odd decision.

But no imperial army is struggling for CP with the IG CP farm battalion exsisting.

8th edition is the soup edition, and GW main studio keeps making game desigb decisions to drive that hope.
If they force people into needing to own IG battalions and shield captains they can make mono armies in 9th edition to restart the buy new units to be competitive cycle.

Ice_can wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
The new Knight codex is looking bad, like GW is actively trying to make people avoid building Knight armies.

Can only get CP if you take at least 3 Questoris/Dominus Knights in a SHD means an all Knight army is looking at 6 cp at best rather than the 9 cp we can do now without the codex. This also appears to be the only way to get a Warlord or use stratagems.

It appears that GW lied to us about Armigers, as they cannot be used to get CP from a SHD. In Forgebane, GW specifically stated that we can take 3 Armigers to get 3 CP.

The new terrain piece has garbage rules, making it worthless to take. You have to give up movement and shooting for a turn to get a benefit from it on the next turn.

/sigh

SJ

The knights codex isn't bad, it's got some seriously powerful units and point's drops across the board.

The armiger's having some clauses for their use in detachments is an odd decision.

But no imperial army is struggling for CP with the IG CP farm battalion exsisting.

8th edition is the soup edition, and GW main studio keeps making game desigb decisions to drive that hope.
If they force people into needing to own IG battalions and shield captains they can make mono armies in 9th edition to restart the buy new units to be competitive cycle.

Again, unless base knights drop by 100 points, they are not going to be worth taking
A renegade knight with 2 rapid file battle cannons, 3 heavy stubbers cost 532 points
2 tank commanders who can issue orders to one another, and take regiment bonues which let them do gak like reroll the total number of hits, costs 500 for the same amount of shots, same T, iirc same wounds, same BS, the only thing they dont get is a 5++ which ooooooo most things are saving on a 5++ anyway now a days.
or hell a shadowsword is about the same cost and can remove a basic knight from the table each turn.

Knights are just crap right now especially with their degrading profile. The second a knight gets dropped a profile it looses so much of its power.

It can only fire one missile a turn. For 600+ points. And it will eat all your CP's to be effective.

Could be a meta changer if we see more character sniping style rules in the future, but right now, this is a pretty "meh" missile. You still have to roll to hit, and you still have to roll to wound, and you do d6 wounds, which on average, will be a 3 that can just as easily be a 1 or a 6. That's 2-3 CP right there, not to mention the 2 CP to use the Stratagem in the first place. Things that come to mind: "Hope you take out that key model that you just wasted all your CP on", "Better make it count because I'm only going to get one shot at this" and "That one model is the linchpin for my opponent's entire army! If I use all my CP's to take him out, I'll definitely win the game!"