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 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Magnus trying to save the Imperium is irrelevant, that's why he disobeyed, but we are talking about whether the Primarchs knew of the dangers, he knew exactly what he was doing and he knew the consequences. He knew exactly how dangerous making deals with the great ocean was, you are kinda clutching at straws now trying to defend him. I've given the best evidence of Magnus knowing what he was doing, straight from his mouth about making bargains with the great ocean and still you are just saying 'yeah but the Emperor still didn't explain it.'

Knowing something is dangerous is one thing. Knowing exactly WHY something is dangerous and how to avoid that danger is something completely different.

Say you don't know what electricity is and I point at an electrical cable and say "that is dangerous, don't touch it". You nod and keep away from it, but one day while doing something unrelated you accidentally touch it, nothing happens so you figure it's ok to touch from then on but are still wary because you were told that it is "dangerous" in some way but you aren't sure why. You start touching it every day to move it in the process of doing other things and then it starts becoming normal for you. Then one day you try to move the cable to do something else and end up touching it on a part where the insulation is worn off and you electrocute yourself.

Do I really have the right to start screaming at you that "I told you not to touch it" when I didn't even explain to you why it was dangerous to touch or what it would do to you if you touched the cable in the wrong spot?

 Formosa wrote:
Fulgrim: he swan dived into chaos as soon as he knew what it was.

And here we have why Big E gave damage control description of chaos (ie. powerful extra-dimensional xenos which can not be bargained with; which is true) and not chaos side of the story (if you vote for Vedros all your wildest dreams will come true).

w1zard wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Magnus trying to save the Imperium is irrelevant, that's why he disobeyed, but we are talking about whether the Primarchs knew of the dangers, he knew exactly what he was doing and he knew the consequences. He knew exactly how dangerous making deals with the great ocean was, you are kinda clutching at straws now trying to defend him. I've given the best evidence of Magnus knowing what he was doing, straight from his mouth about making bargains with the great ocean and still you are just saying 'yeah but the Emperor still didn't explain it.'

Knowing something is dangerous is one thing. Knowing exactly WHY something is dangerous and how to avoid that danger is something completely different.

Say you don't know what electricity is and I point at an electrical cable and say "that is dangerous, don't touch it". You nod and keep away from it, but one day while doing something unrelated you accidentally touch it, nothing happens so you figure it's ok to touch from then on but are still wary because you were told that it is "dangerous" in some way but you aren't sure why. You start touching it every day to move it in the process of doing other things and then it starts becoming normal for you. Then one day you try to move the cable to do something else and end up touching it on a part where the insulation is worn off and you electrocute yourself.

Do I really have the right to start screaming at you that "I told you not to touch it" when I didn't even explain to you why it was dangerous to touch or what it would do to you if you touched the cable in the wrong spot?

Magnus, didn't 'accidentally' make a deal with Chaos. It doesn't matter how hard you try you cannot justify what Magnus did and you cannot say he didn't know the consequences, he did and said it himself. I think you must be biased because you like Magnus or collect thousand sons, because you can't justify his actions or say he didn't know what he was doing. He was told about the dangers, he explicitly said how dangerous making bargains with chaos is, its just getting silly now.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Magnus, didn't 'accidentally' make a deal with Chaos. It doesn't matter how hard you try you cannot justify what Magnus did and you cannot say he didn't know the consequences, he did and said it himself.

You are correct, Magnus did not "accidentally" make a deal with chaos. He did so intentionally. BUT, he was not aware of true dangers behind dealing with chaos because the emperor never explained that to him. For example, Magnus made a deal with Tzeentch to stop the flesh change in his legion. In exchange he gave up his eye. He thought that was the end of it, but he didn't realize that even dealing with chaos gives it a foothold in your soul. Magnus was damned as soon as he made that deal with Tzeentch because now chaos had its claws in him at that point and wasn't going to let him go. When Magnus made the deal with Tzeentch again later to get enough power to break through the psychic defenses on Terra, he did so thinking that no price was too high to pay in order to warn the emperor about Horus' betrayal. Magnus didn't know that the emperor was working on the webway project and thus had no idea that the "price" was going to be the wrecking of humanity's best hope against chaos.

The emperor's warnings about chaos were vague and cryptic. Simply saying that warp entities are "dangerous and untrustworthy" is a dangerous understatement, because all xenos are "dangerous and untrustworthy" but daemons and the chaos gods are far more insidious then that and cannot be dealt with in the same way as other xenos. The primarchs underestimated the danger posed by chaos because the emperor never explained its true nature. Because they underestimated chaos they were consumed by it.

Magnus thought he would be able to pay the "price" of dealing with chaos, but he never really understood what the "price" was. It was his soul, the lives and reputation of his legion, and the possible future of humanity. We as readers know the true nature of chaos and why treating with it is so bad but the legions and the primarchs didn't. They were unaware that the chaos gods even existed, and thought that daemons were just unpleasant aliens from a different dimension. Hell, the thousand sons didn't even understand their summoned tutelaries were daemons.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
I think you must be biased because you like Magnus or collect thousand sons, because you can't justify his actions or say he didn't know what he was doing.

I do not collect, and have never collected Thousand Sons, I am an Imperial Guard player. The Thousand Sons aren't even my favorite traitor legion.

w1zard wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Magnus, didn't 'accidentally' make a deal with Chaos. It doesn't matter how hard you try you cannot justify what Magnus did and you cannot say he didn't know the consequences, he did and said it himself.

You are correct, Magnus did not "accidentally" make a deal with chaos. He did so intentionally. BUT, he was not aware of true dangers behind dealing with chaos because the emperor never explained that to him. For example, Magnus made a deal with Tzeentch to stop the flesh change in his legion. In exchange he gave up his eye. He thought that was the end of it, but he didn't realize that even dealing with chaos gives it a foothold in your soul. Magnus was damned as soon as he made that deal with Tzeentch because now chaos had its claws in him at that point and wasn't going to let him go. When Magnus made the deal with Tzeentch again later to get enough power to break through the psychic defenses on Terra, he did so thinking that no price was too high to pay in order to warn the emperor about Horus' betrayal. Magnus didn't know that the emperor was working on the webway project and thus had no idea that the "price" was going to be the wrecking of humanity's best hope against chaos.

The emperor's warnings about chaos were vague and cryptic. Simply saying that warp entities are "dangerous and untrustworthy" is a dangerous understatement, because all xenos are "dangerous and untrustworthy" but daemons and the chaos gods are far more insidious then that and cannot be dealt with in the same way as other xenos. The Primarchs underestimated the danger posed by chaos because the emperor never explained its true nature. Because they underestimated chaos they were consumed by it.

Magnus thought he would be able to pay the "price" of dealing with chaos, but he never really understood what the "price" was. It was his soul, the lives and reputation of his legion, and the possible future of humanity.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
I think you must be biased because you like Magnus or collect thousand sons, because you can't justify his actions or say he didn't know what he was doing.

I do not collect, and have never collected Thousand Sons, I am an Imperial Guard player. The Thousand Sons aren't even my favorite traitor legion.

The Emperor to Everyone at Nikaea "Peering into the darkness to gain knowledge of the warp is fraught with peril, for it is an inconstant place of shifting reality, capricious lies and untruths. The seeker after truth must have a care he is not deceived, for false knowledge is far more dangerous than ignorance. All men wish to possess knowledge, but few are willing to pay the price. Always men will seek to take the short cut, the quick route to power, and it is a man’s own mind, not his enemy or foe, that will lure him to evil ways. True knowledge is gained only after the acquisition of wisdom. Without wisdom, a powerful person does not become more powerful, he becomes reckless. His power will turn on him and eventually destroy all he has built.“I have walked paths no man can know and faced the unnameable creatures of the warp. I understand all too well the secrets and dangers that lurk in its hidden darkness. Such things are not for lesser minds to know; no matter how powerful or knowledgeable they believe themselves to be. The secrets I have shared serve as warnings, not enticements to explore further. Only death and damnation await those who pry too deeply into secrets not meant for mortals." "I see now I have allowed my sons to delve too profoundly into matters I should never have permitted them to know even existed. Let it be known that no one shall suffer censure, for this conclave is to serve Unity, not discord. But no more shall the threat of sorcery be allowed to taint the warriors of the Astartes. Hence-forth, it is my will that no Legion will maintain a Librarius department. All its warriors and instructors must be returned to the battle companies and never again employ any psychic powers.”Gasps of astonishment spread through the amphitheatre, and Ahriman felt his skin chill at the absolute nature of the Emperor’s. After everything that had been said, he couldn’t believe the judgement had gone against them.The Emperor wasn’t finished, and thunder rolled in his voice.“Woe betide he who ignores my warning or breaks faith with me. He shall be my enemy, and I will visit such destruction upon him and all his followers that, until the end of all things, he shall rue the day he turned from my light." Death and damnation.... how could he warn him more. What difference does it make if he called them daemons or the Chaos gods? Magnus new fine well of the dangers of making a deal with Chaos after Nikaea and he still made a deal to travel through the Warp to the Emperor. The warnings were fine, Magnus craved power and was arrogant, that's why he continued to use sorcery, not because he wasn't warned properly.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
...Magnus new fine well of the dangers of making a deal with Chaos after Nikaea and he still made a deal to travel through the Warp to the Emperor.

Yes, and Magnus was willing to pay "whatever the price was" because in his mind, warning the emperor about Horus was more important than anything else. He was wrong, so very wrong.

w1zard wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
...Magnus new fine well of the dangers of making a deal with Chaos after Nikaea and he still made a deal to travel through the Warp to the Emperor.

Yes, and Magnus was willing to pay "whatever the price was" because in his mind, warning the emperor about Horus was more important than anything else. He was wrong.

Exactly, he knew exactly what he was doing and the dangers, he thought he was more knowledgeable and stronger than the Emperor so he did what wanted. He boasted that in his quarters no one could listen in not even the Emperor, when he found the lattice (webway) he was so proud that he knew and the Emperor didn't, even after Nikaea before he broke into the webway he still allowed his legion to use sorcery so he didn't turn to sorcery just to warn the Emperor because he thought it was important.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
...he thought he was more knowledgeable and stronger than the Emperor so he did what wanted. He boasted that in his quarters no one could listen in not even the Emperor, when he found the lattice (webway) he was so proud that he knew and the Emperor didn't...

Yes. I'm not debating that.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
...even after Nikaea before he broke into the webway he still allowed his legion to use sorcery so he didn't turn to sorcery just to warn the Emperor because he thought it was important.

No, this is wrong. After Nikea they still used their psychic powers but they stopped with the worst excesses of their sorcery... which is why Magnus using sorcery again to contact the emperor was such a big deal. It was his first real "breaking" of the edict after Nikea.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Exactly, he knew exactly what he was doing and the dangers...

No, no, no, no! He knew it was DANGEROUS, of course he did because he lost an eye experimenting before. He did NOT know that doing so would damn his soul into service of chaos gods (THAT HE DIDN'T EVEN KNOW EXISTED), or that it would destroy the emperor's webway project (THAT HE DIDN'T EVEN KNOW EXISTED).

w1zard wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
...he thought he was more knowledgeable and stronger than the Emperor so he did what wanted. He boasted that in his quarters no one could listen in not even the Emperor, when he found the lattice (webway) he was so proud that he knew and the Emperor didn't...

Yes. I'm not debating that.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
...even after Nikaea before he broke into the webway he still allowed his legion to use sorcery so he didn't turn to sorcery just to warn the Emperor because he thought it was important.

No, this is wrong. After Nikea they still used their psychic powers but they stopped with the worst excesses of their sorcery... which is why Magnus using sorcery again to contact the emperor was such a big deal. It was his first real "breaking" of the edict after Nikea.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Exactly, he knew exactly what he was doing and the dangers...

No, no, no, no! He knew it was DANGEROUS, of course he did because he lost an eye experimenting before. He did NOT know that doing so would damn his soul into service of chaos gods (THAT HE DIDN'T EVEN KNOW EXISTED), or that it would destroy the emperor's webway project (THAT HE DIDN'T EVEN KNOW EXISTED).

1. Magnus did boast about that, and he did think he knew of the webway the Emperor didn't.

2.They did not stop using Tutelaries, which were daemons and sorcery, Ahriman used his after the Emperor Edict at Nikaea "Ahriman took a deep breath, the scale of such an undertaking not lost on him. His senses were stretched to the limits of percep-tion, his mind alive with the flickering light of possible futures. He drew deeply on Aaetpio’s well of power to enhance his awareness. His skin felt as though his Tutelary’s fire was burning him. He had felt something like this once before, but forced that memory from his mind as he sensed the presence of inimical souls nearby" p428

3. I already quoted that the Emperor told Magnus that bargaining with Chaos will lead to damnation.

Also Magnus knew everything he needed to of Chaos before he went into the webway "“There is a price to pay for the time I gave your sons. You knew this when you accepted the gift of my power. Now it is time tomake good on your bargain.”“I made no bargain,” said Magnus, “not with the likes of you.”“Oh, but you did,” laughed the eyes. “When, in your despair, you cried out for succour in the depths of the warp, when you begged for the means to save your sons – you flew too close to the sun, Magnus. You offered up your soul to save theirs, and that debt is now due." and yet he still broke the edict.

w1zard wrote:
I think this is pretty blatantly false. There are a lot of 40k novels where characters understanding the nature of chaos helps them to protect themselves from it. The Ciaphas Cain novels, and Ravenor come to mind.

Some BL authors do play fast and loose with the rules of how Chaos works for the purposes of telling a story, yes. But you really need to read some of the older Chaos fluff. The original Realm of Chaos books and the Liber Chaotica made it very clear how Chaos works in the setting.

The fact that the Grey Knights even exist and that none have ever fallen to chaos despite being confronted by the true nature of chaos pretty much as their job also implies that it is not impossible to resist chaos.

You mean the marine chapter created using geneseed derived from The Anathema himself? Yeah, the Grey Knights being able to resist Chaos despite understanding it doesn't mean it would have been safe for the Emperor to blab that knowledge to the primarchs.

Sure, but then you don't get to complain when they get smart and fight back. And if they fight back and win you doubly don't get to complain.

Who's complaining?

No, daemons are explicitly stated to be the NEGATIVE emotions of humanity. Greed, anger, overbearing lust, that sort of thing. I think love is an emotion that most daemons would consider anathema and could not feed off of. Simply feeling emotions does not damn you to fall to chaos eventually,

You're simply wrong. Every emotion stirs the Warp. A daemon created from a mother's love for her child might not be so obviously dangerous as one created from a serial killer's murderous urges, but that probably just makes it more pernicious. Again, you need to read some of the original Chaos lore. The Liber Chaotica describes Tzeentch as being born from the emotion of hope. Getting angry at injustice feeds Khorne (which is why the NL were originally a Khornate legion before they were retconned into atheists - Night Haunter was originally envisaged as how Batman would have ended up in a world where the Warp / Chaos existed). Showing courage and determination in the face of certain doom feeds Nurgle. You can't avoid feeding Chaos merely by avoiding 'negative' emotions.

Amberly Vail from the Ciaphas Cain series is a good example of an extremely old Inquisitor who is still puritan, and there are many other examples.

Look, I really like the Ciaphas Cain stories, but they're not a good guide to how the 40k setting actually works. James Herriot makes a cameo appearance in one of them for crying out loud.

Also, being a radical inquisitor does not imply you soul has fallen to chaos or that you are controlled by chaos. Being radical simply means that you think that chaos can be CAREFULLY used to fight itself. Whether or not that is correct is up for debate.

Cue *laughter of thirsting gods*

To put it simply I think you are misinterpreting quite a bit.

To put it simply, I think you are woefully misinformed.

 Duskweaver wrote:

w1zard wrote:
I think this is pretty blatantly false. There are a lot of 40k novels where characters understanding the nature of chaos helps them to protect themselves from it. The Ciaphas Cain novels, and Ravenor come to mind.

Some BL authors do play fast and loose with the rules of how Chaos works for the purposes of telling a story, yes. But you really need to read some of the older Chaos fluff. The original Realm of Chaos books and the Liber Chaotica made it very clear how Chaos works in the setting.

The fact that the Grey Knights even exist and that none have ever fallen to chaos despite being confronted by the true nature of chaos pretty much as their job also implies that it is not impossible to resist chaos.

You mean the marine chapter created using geneseed derived from The Anathema himself? Yeah, the Grey Knights being able to resist Chaos despite understanding it doesn't mean it would have been safe for the Emperor to blab that knowledge to the primarchs.

Sure, but then you don't get to complain when they get smart and fight back. And if they fight back and win you doubly don't get to complain.

Who's complaining?

No, daemons are explicitly stated to be the NEGATIVE emotions of humanity. Greed, anger, overbearing lust, that sort of thing. I think love is an emotion that most daemons would consider anathema and could not feed off of. Simply feeling emotions does not damn you to fall to chaos eventually,

You're simply wrong. Every emotion stirs the Warp. A daemon created from a mother's love for her child might not be so obviously dangerous as one created from a serial killer's murderous urges, but that probably just makes it more pernicious. Again, you need to read some of the original Chaos lore. The Liber Chaotica describes Tzeentch as being born from the emotion of hope. Getting angry at injustice feeds Khorne (which is why the NL were originally a Khornate legion before they were retconned into atheists - Night Haunter was originally envisaged as how Batman would have ended up in a world where the Warp / Chaos existed). Showing courage and determination in the face of certain doom feeds Nurgle. You can't avoid feeding Chaos merely by avoiding 'negative' emotions.

Amberly Vail from the Ciaphas Cain series is a good example of an extremely old Inquisitor who is still puritan, and there are many other examples.

Look, I really like the Ciaphas Cain stories, but they're not a good guide to how the 40k setting actually works. James Herriot makes a cameo appearance in one of them for crying out loud.

Also, being a radical inquisitor does not imply you soul has fallen to chaos or that you are controlled by chaos. Being radical simply means that you think that chaos can be CAREFULLY used to fight itself. Whether or not that is correct is up for debate.

Cue *laughter of thirsting gods*

To put it simply I think you are misinterpreting quite a bit.

To put it simply, I think you are woefully misinformed.

True, like the daemon that Turned Argel Tal, the daemon didn't want to give him any undue pain and cradle him in its arms like baby. I'd say daemons are more negative; however, because negative emotions are normally the strongest, you can easily be happy and turn angry but being angry its very hard to turn happy lol

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Also Magnus knew everything he needed to of Chaos before he went into the webway "“There is a price to pay for the time I gave your sons. You knew this when you accepted the gift of my power. Now it is time tomake good on your bargain.”“I made no bargain,” said Magnus, “not with the likes of you.”“Oh, but you did,” laughed the eyes. “When, in your despair, you cried out for succour in the depths of the warp, when you begged for the means to save your sons – you flew too close to the sun, Magnus. You offered up your soul to save theirs, and that debt is now due." and yet he still broke the edict.

I think if anything, that quote proves he had no freaking clue what he was actually agreeing to when he dealt with chaos before. After that, he didn't care because all he wanted was to warn the emperor, he had no way of knowing how badly he would screw things up for others beside himself. I do agree that he was warned by the emperor not to mess with sorcery. But he had absolutely no idea how badly messing with sorcery would feth him and the Imperium.

 Duskweaver wrote:
Some BL authors do play fast and loose with the rules of how Chaos works for the purposes of telling a story, yes. But you really need to read some of the older Chaos fluff. The original Realm of Chaos books and the Liber Chaotica made it very clear how Chaos works in the setting.

Older lore is irrelevant if it is overwritten by newer lore. In the older lore, the ultramarines had a half-eldar librarian that went to terra and got the emperor's blessing by psychically speaking to him. There is some stuff that is just plain outdated or retconned.

There are plenty of Black Library authors that show that exposure to chaos or understanding the nature of how chaos corrupts individuals does not automatically lead to corruption. The Ciaphas Cain novels, the Ravenor novels, the Eisenhorn novels (Eisenhorn never fell to chaos even though he started employing radical methods), all of Dan Abnett's works especially the Gaunt's Ghosts series of novels are just a few examples, I could go on more. To put it quite plainly, your interpretation that even knowledge of chaos corrupts people into chaos is either based off of old lore that is not relevant or canonical anymore, or is a misinterpretation. I'm sorry but you are wrong, because if you weren't every Imperial Commissar and Inquisitor would have fallen to chaos already. Hell, the entire spat between the Space Wolves and the Inquisition was over the fact that the post-chaos exposure purges of Imperial Guard regiments were UNNECESSARY.

actually it was because the space wovles THOUGHT they where unnesscary. the Inqusition clearly disagreed

BrianDavion wrote:
actually it was because the space wovles THOUGHT they where unnesscary. the Inqusition clearly disagreed

Sure you can argue that, but the regiments that the Space Wolves saved from the purges never ended up falling to chaos, in fact if I remember correctly they continued on fighting with distinction, proving Logan Grimnar right. Even some of the grey knights refused to participate in the "Armageddon Containment" campaign.

w1zard wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
actually it was because the space wovles THOUGHT they where unnesscary. the Inqusition clearly disagreed

Sure you can argue that, but the regiments that the Space Wolves saved from the purges never ended up falling to chaos, in fact if I remember correctly they continued on fighting with distinction, proving Logan Grimnar right. Even some of the grey knights refused to participate in the "Armageddon Containment" campaign.

We've also seen cases where failure to contain things resulted in grave concequences. Iax comes to mind. Gulliman when fighting the death guard set up a hospital for the wounded etc. the end result? he lost an entire planet.

w1zard wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Also Magnus knew everything he needed to of Chaos before he went into the webway "“There is a price to pay for the time I gave your sons. You knew this when you accepted the gift of my power. Now it is time tomake good on your bargain.”“I made no bargain,” said Magnus, “not with the likes of you.”“Oh, but you did,” laughed the eyes. “When, in your despair, you cried out for succour in the depths of the warp, when you begged for the means to save your sons – you flew too close to the sun, Magnus. You offered up your soul to save theirs, and that debt is now due." and yet he still broke the edict.

I think if anything, that quote proves he had no freaking clue what he was actually agreeing to when he dealt with chaos before. After that, he didn't care because all he wanted was to warn the emperor, he had no way of knowing how badly he would screw things up for others beside himself. I do agree that he was warned by the emperor not to mess with sorcery. But he had absolutely no idea how badly messing with sorcery would feth him and the Imperium.

 Duskweaver wrote:
Some BL authors do play fast and loose with the rules of how Chaos works for the purposes of telling a story, yes. But you really need to read some of the older Chaos fluff. The original Realm of Chaos books and the Liber Chaotica made it very clear how Chaos works in the setting.

Older lore is irrelevant if it is overwritten by newer lore. In the older lore, the ultramarines had a half-eldar librarian that went to terra and got the emperor's blessing by psychically speaking to him. There is some stuff that is just plain outdated or retconned.

There are plenty of Black Library authors that show that exposure to chaos or understanding the nature of how chaos corrupts individuals does not automatically lead to corruption. The Ciaphas Cain novels, the Ravenor novels, the Eisenhorn novels (Eisenhorn never fell to chaos even though he started employing radical methods), all of Dan Abnett's works especially the Gaunt's Ghosts series of novels are just a few examples, I could go on more. To put it quite plainly, your interpretation that even knowledge of chaos corrupts people into chaos is either based off of old lore that is not relevant or canonical anymore, or is a misinterpretation. I'm sorry but you are wrong, because if you weren't every Imperial Commissar and Inquisitor would have fallen to chaos already. Hell, the entire spat between the Space Wolves and the Inquisition was over the fact that the post-chaos exposure purges of Imperial Guard regiments were UNNECESSARY.

It may show that 'before' the edict of nikaea, when he continued using sorcery and then made a deal with Chaos he knew exactly what he was doing, he knew his soul was already forfeit so he made another deal with Chaos.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
It may show that 'before' the edict of nikaea, when he continued using sorcery and then made a deal with Chaos he knew exactly what he was doing, he knew his soul was already forfeit so he made another deal with Chaos.

Exactly. But he merely thought he was sacrificing himself to warn the emperor. He didn't care about the consequences to HIM about breaking the edict at Nikaea, because in his mind the Imperium was more important than a lone individual even if he was a primarch. He didn't realize that in by breaking the edict he would be damning his legion as well, along with breaking the webway project that the emperor had going, which Magnus didn't even know existed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:
We've also seen cases where failure to contain things resulted in grave concequences. Iax comes to mind. Gulliman when fighting the death guard set up a hospital for the wounded etc. the end result? he lost an entire planet.

Yes but it isn't a 100% sure thing. The inquisition ordering purges of imperial guard regiments coming into contact with chaos was more of a "safety precaution" then strictly 100% necessary. Grimnar's point of view was that "the lives of loyal Imperial subjects that have fought and bled to protect the Imperium from chaos should not be treated so lightly and thrown away so callously in the name of expediency". He was basically arguing that not only was it unethical, but that it was inefficient as well, because most of those regiments that were to be purged were loyal and would have stayed loyal even after exposure to chaos, and thus was a massive waste of manpower and resources.

Grimnar's point of view had support in the Grey Knights, Ecclesiarchy (especially sisters of battle), and among some inquisitors as well... Although, the official position of the inquisition was to side with Kysnaros in the dispute because the precedent of a single space marine chapter master being able to defy the inquisition was not a good example to set.

It doesn't NEED to be 100%. Any chance Chaos gets an edge is something the Inquisition can't allow to happen. They make those decisions for a reason and Grimnar is stupidly short sighted.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It doesn't NEED to be 100%. Any chance Chaos gets an edge is something the Inquisition can't allow to happen. They make those decisions for a reason and Grimnar is stupidly short sighted.

I think that is a fair interpretation of the situation, but it is debatable. I can argue that Grimnar is right and the inquisition is being overly callous and wasting manpower and resources and have plenty of lore evidence to back up that assertion. Both sides had valid points of view and supporters in various Imperial organizations, which is what made the situation so interesting.

Regardless, my original point was that simply having knowledge of the chaos gods or about the insidiousness of how chaos can corrupt you does NOT mean that you are instantly corrupted or doomed to be corrupted in the future. The emperor sharing knowledge about the chaos gods to his primarchs in an effort to warn them about the dangers of chaos would not have turned them all to chaos. Well... maybe Lorgar. But alternatively, Mortarion and Magnus probably would have never fallen.

w1zard wrote:
Older lore is irrelevant if it is overwritten by newer lore. In the older lore, the ultramarines had a half-eldar librarian that went to terra and got the emperor's blessing by psychically speaking to him. There is some stuff that is just plain outdated or retconned.

And if anything I'd mentioned had actually been explicitly retconned you'd have a point. But it hasn't. The nature of Chaos hasn't been changed in any official publication. And Liber Chaotica wasn't even that long ago. Please stop trying to pretend that everything written before the last BL novel you read is no longer canon.

There are plenty of Black Library authors that show that exposure to chaos or understanding the nature of how chaos corrupts individuals does not automatically lead to corruption.

Within the scope of the novel. So maybe a few months? And BL novel protagonists tend to be... let's say 'exceptional individuals' because 'Mary Sues' is a bit impolite. The Emperor had to balance the risk of keeping the primarchs ignorant against the much greater risk of letting knowledge of how souls/Chaos works become public. There wasn't anything to be gained by telling the primarchs any more about the subject than he actually did. "There are really dangerous entities in the Warp that it is too risky to have any contact with" really should have been sufficient.

OK, let's flip it around. What do you think the Emperor should have told them, specifically?

all of Dan Abnett's works especially

Dan Abnett has been notorious for putting things in his novels that don't work the way the 40K setting is established to work, literally since his first BL novel.

Anyway, it is true that in certain circumstances a particular piece of information about Chaos can get you out of a tight spot. The point is that, over a long enough time, knowledge of Chaos is inherently corrupting. It's fine for a commissar to be able to recognise, say, the rune of Khorne on a traitor PDF soldier's helmet. But if that commissar knows Khorne is the embodiment of all human rage and anger, eventually he's going to start thinking about that every time he's angry. And every time he exhorts the soldiers under his command to righteous anger against the enemy. And then one day he's shouting "Slay them in the name of the Emperor!" but he's thinking "Slay them in the name of the Blood God!"

And then we've got another sodding Blood Pact to deal with.

 Duskweaver wrote:
The point is that, over a long enough time, knowledge of Chaos is inherently corrupting.

No.

-Cain served over 200 years as a commissar, having intimate knowledge about chaos and daemons, even having a greater daemon of slaanesh specifically target him in dreams.

-Uncountable instances of inquisitors in stories that have never turned traitor despite living 200+ years.

-Space marines fighting chaos for multiple hundreds of years non-stop and never turning, even fighting on daemon worlds.

-Eisenhorn, Ravenor, Gaunt's Ghosts, Cadians living on a planet literally right outside of the eye of terror that fight valiantly for the Imperium. All of them exposed to chaos constantly.

You are just wrong, simply knowing about the existence of the chaos gods or information about them isn't going to turn you to chaos on its own. I have given you multiple lore examples and could continue to do so if I thought it was a constructive use of my time. The only thing you have given me is telling me to read a lore book that is almost 15 years old and is most likely irrelevant at this point because it is directly contradicted by the newer lore. Your only counter-argument: "B-But those books don't count."

Judging by their actions, none appear particularly wise.

w1zard wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
It may show that 'before' the edict of nikaea, when he continued using sorcery and then made a deal with Chaos he knew exactly what he was doing, he knew his soul was already forfeit so he made another deal with Chaos.

Exactly. But he merely thought he was sacrificing himself to warn the emperor. He didn't care about the consequences to HIM about breaking the edict at Nikaea, because in his mind the Imperium was more important than a lone individual even if he was a primarch. He didn't realize that in by breaking the edict he would be damning his legion as well, along with breaking the webway project that the emperor had going, which Magnus didn't even know existed.


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BrianDavion wrote:
We've also seen cases where failure to contain things resulted in grave concequences. Iax comes to mind. Gulliman when fighting the death guard set up a hospital for the wounded etc. the end result? he lost an entire planet.

Yes but it isn't a 100% sure thing. The inquisition ordering purges of imperial guard regiments coming into contact with chaos was more of a "safety precaution" then strictly 100% necessary. Grimnar's point of view was that "the lives of loyal Imperial subjects that have fought and bled to protect the Imperium from chaos should not be treated so lightly and thrown away so callously in the name of expediency". He was basically arguing that not only was it unethical, but that it was inefficient as well, because most of those regiments that were to be purged were loyal and would have stayed loyal even after exposure to chaos, and thus was a massive waste of manpower and resources.

Grimnar's point of view had support in the Grey Knights, Ecclesiarchy (especially sisters of battle), and among some inquisitors as well... Although, the official position of the inquisition was to side with Kysnaros in the dispute because the precedent of a single space marine chapter master being able to defy the inquisition was not a good example to set.

He didn't care about the consequences of breaking into the webway either. It wasn't a selfless act, he was already doomed. He broke the edict of Nikaea before he knew of Horus' betrayal. He did know his legion was damned the daemon told him that before he made another pack with Chaos. But this is going in circles, I've already proved he was sufficiently warned and he still continued using sorcery.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
He didn't care about the consequences of breaking into the webway either. It wasn't a selfless act, he was already doomed. He broke the edict of Nikaea before he knew of Horus' betrayal. He did know his legion was damned the daemon told him that before he made another pack with Chaos. But this is going in circles, I've already proved he was sufficiently warned and he still continued using sorcery.

What? The entire reason why he used sorcery was because he was trying to contact the emperor and warn him about Horus' betrayal. That is a pretty selfless act considering he knew he was going to get in trouble for it.

Magnus couldn't get into the Imperial Palace to warn the emperor because of the psychic defenses. By penetrating these defenses he accidentally ruined the emperor's webway project. Magnus intentionally broke through the barriers but he had no idea it would screw things up so badly because he had no idea that the emperor was even working on a webway project.

Magnus breaching the psychic defenses around Terra was intentional in that he thought they could just be patched up again afterwards no big deal. He had no idea what was really going on or what his breaching of the defenses would really do.

"Using an astral projection spell, the spirit of Magnus the Red hurtled towards Terra through the Warp. While in the Immaterium, Magnus came across a Webway corridor that led to Terra but found the barrier impenetrable. But then an anonymous entity within the Warp whispered sibilantly to him, offering to provide the Primarch with additional power in order to breach the Webway. Magnus seized upon the entity's offer, breaching the barrier and bursting into the Emperor's throne room. This act penetrated the powerful psychic wards the Emperor had raised around the Imperial Palace and allowed Warp entities to penetrate the human extension of the Webway and launch an assault against Terra itself, killing thousands of the Mechanicus Adepts who had been labouring with the Emperor on his great work. With this breach, the Emperor's work was undone. Horrified, the Primarch's spirit returned to his corporeal body on Prospero. There, he received a vision from Tzeentch, the mysterious entity that had enabled him to breach the Webway. The Architect of Fate informed Magnus that it was his destiny to serve the will of the Ruinous Powers."

w1zard wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
He didn't care about the consequences of breaking into the webway either. It wasn't a selfless act, he was already doomed. He broke the edict of Nikaea before he knew of Horus' betrayal. He did know his legion was damned the daemon told him that before he made another pack with Chaos. But this is going in circles, I've already proved he was sufficiently warned and he still continued using sorcery.

What? The entire reason why he used sorcery was because he was trying to contact the emperor and warn him about Horus' betrayal. That is a pretty selfless act considering he knew he was going to get in trouble for it.

Magnus couldn't get into the Imperial Palace to warn the emperor because of the psychic defenses. By penetrating these defenses he accidentally ruined the emperor's webway project. Magnus intentionally broke through the barriers but he had no idea it would screw things up so badly because he had no idea that the emperor was even working on a webway project.

Magnus breaching the psychic defenses around Terra was intentional in that he thought they could just be patched up again afterwards no big deal. He had no idea what was really going on or what his breaching of the defenses would really do.

"Using an astral projection spell, the spirit of Magnus the Red hurtled towards Terra through the Warp. While in the Immaterium, Magnus came across a Webway corridor that led to Terra but found the barrier impenetrable. But then an anonymous entity within the Warp whispered sibilantly to him, offering to provide the Primarch with additional power in order to breach the Webway. Magnus seized upon the entity's offer, breaching the barrier and bursting into the Emperor's throne room. This act penetrated the powerful psychic wards the Emperor had raised around the Imperial Palace and allowed Warp entities to penetrate the human extension of the Webway and launch an assault against Terra itself, killing thousands of the Mechanicus Adepts who had been labouring with the Emperor on his great work. With this breach, the Emperor's work was undone. Horrified, the Primarch's spirit returned to his corporeal body on Prospero. There, he received a vision from Tzeentch, the mysterious entity that had enabled him to breach the Webway. The Architect of Fate informed Magnus that it was his destiny to serve the will of the Ruinous Powers."

We all know the lore of Magnus breaking into the webway, That doesn't mean he wasn't warned.

Can you guys please take your argument to another thread, or get on with the actual subject of the thread

 john27 wrote:
Can you guys please take your argument to another thread, or get on with the actual subject of the thread

I'm done with the argument anyways, its going nowhere.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 john27 wrote:
Can you guys please take your argument to another thread, or get on with the actual subject of the thread

I'm done with the argument anyways, its going nowhere.

I mean you're getting lore completely wrong so yeah the conversation isn't going anywhere.


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w1zard wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It doesn't NEED to be 100%. Any chance Chaos gets an edge is something the Inquisition can't allow to happen. They make those decisions for a reason and Grimnar is stupidly short sighted.

I think that is a fair interpretation of the situation, but it is debatable. I can argue that Grimnar is right and the inquisition is being overly callous and wasting manpower and resources and have plenty of lore evidence to back up that assertion. Both sides had valid points of view and supporters in various Imperial organizations, which is what made the situation so interesting.

You can only argue for Grimnar if you hadn't read another piece of 40k lore, where whole planets get corrupted and that kinda crap.

You're right just knowing of Chaos doesn't JUST cause heresy, but those in the know are typically being trained to resist it at the same time for those already named, which the aforementioned Guardsmen from that whole situation wouldn't have.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 john27 wrote:
Can you guys please take your argument to another thread, or get on with the actual subject of the thread

I'm done with the argument anyways, its going nowhere.

I mean you're getting lore completely wrong so yeah the conversation isn't going anywhere.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

w1zard wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It doesn't NEED to be 100%. Any chance Chaos gets an edge is something the Inquisition can't allow to happen. They make those decisions for a reason and Grimnar is stupidly short sighted.

I think that is a fair interpretation of the situation, but it is debatable. I can argue that Grimnar is right and the inquisition is being overly callous and wasting manpower and resources and have plenty of lore evidence to back up that assertion. Both sides had valid points of view and supporters in various Imperial organizations, which is what made the situation so interesting.

You can only argue for Grimnar if you hadn't read another piece of 40k lore, where whole planets get corrupted and that kinda crap.

You're right just knowing of Chaos doesn't JUST cause heresy, but those in the know are typically being trained to resist it at the same time for those already named, which the aforementioned Guardsmen from that whole situation wouldn't have.

Well I've quoted pretty much everything I've said, so where have I got the lore wrong?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You can only argue for Grimnar if you hadn't read another piece of 40k lore, where whole planets get corrupted and that kinda crap.

You're right just knowing of Chaos doesn't JUST cause heresy, but those in the know are typically being trained to resist it at the same time for those already named, which the aforementioned Guardsmen from that whole situation wouldn't have.

Oh its definitely possible, I would say probable that some of the regiments got corrupted while fighting on armageddon. It was Grimnar's opinion that it doesn't mean you should kill all of them immediately because most of the ones you are going to be purging are loyal, and wasting that much manpower and material hurts the Imperium far more in the long run then missing a few corrupted guardsmen. Grimnar thought that the the regiments should be carefully combed through and any corruption brought to light should be excised, whilst the inquisition thought that the risk of missing some traitors was too great and that they should all be put to death to ensure any corruption is dealt with. Like I said, its debatable, with valid points on either side.

You could certainly make an argument that "missing a few traitor guardsmen" has the potential to cause a good deal of trouble, up to and including "whole planets getting corrupted and that kinda crap".

But Grimnar does have a point. For example, if every regiment who has ever fought tyranids was to be purged for fear of genestealer implants going unnoticed, many worlds of the Imperium would be have to be put to the sword, including the entire population of Macragge for starters. His view was that it was a better policy to carefully comb through the survivors and execute any heretics found that way and just deal with the ones you missed at a later date once they reveal themselves.