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 Formosa wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Someone please tell me that wizards oversimplifying Lorgars fall to Chaos. Tell me Lorgar didn't turn to Chaos literally because he can't handle athiesm.

He is grossly over simplifying it, but he isn’t wrong.

Lorgar believed in the primordial truth long before he believed the emperor was a god, that came later with the visions of the emperor coming to colchis, so when rebuffed he just fell on what he knew to be true, blame Kor phaeron for that one, the guy was a full on child abuser by our standards and would regularly beat lorgar as he grew, he also used psychological abuse and manipulation on lorgar... it’s hardly a surprise he was so morally weak when his growth was slowed in such a way, he and angron have that in common which goes a way to explaining his actions in the betrayer.

Wow. It makes much more sense with the upbringing taken into account but still....just wow. It occurs to me that a lot of the Heresy would have been avoided if the Emperor had said to the Primarchs "I'm concerned about your wellbeing guys. So Malcador is now a therapist. Vulkan your session is tomorrow."

I know the Emperor didn't actually care about them but he was just bad taking care of things.

pm713 wrote:



Wow. It makes much more sense with the upbringing taken into account but still....just wow. It occurs to me that a lot of the Heresy would have been avoided if the Emperor had said to the Primarchs "I'm concerned about your wellbeing guys. So Malcador is now a therapist. Vulkan your session is tomorrow."

I know the Emperor didn't actually care about them but he was just bad taking care of things.

Well, actually the Emperor could have saved everyone a lot of grief by explaining to the Peimarch what the warp is and what lives there... Telling them about the powers that could corrupt them and arm them against it all... No, he just went to Terra to work on a secret project..,

This has nothing to do with the wisdom of the Primarchs, but with the fact that the big E, by being above it all and considering his sons as purely tools to be used, is the architect of the Heresy and of his own downfall.,,

 ChaosDad wrote:

pm713 wrote:



Wow. It makes much more sense with the upbringing taken into account but still....just wow. It occurs to me that a lot of the Heresy would have been avoided if the Emperor had said to the Primarchs "I'm concerned about your wellbeing guys. So Malcador is now a therapist. Vulkan your session is tomorrow."

I know the Emperor didn't actually care about them but he was just bad taking care of things.

Well, actually the Emperor could have saved everyone a lot of grief by explaining to the Peimarch what the warp is and what lives there... Telling them about the powers that could corrupt them and arm them against it all... No, he just went to Terra to work on a secret project..,

This has nothing to do with the wisdom of the Primarchs, but with the fact that the big E, by being above it all and considering his sons as purely tools to be used, is the architect of the Heresy and of his own downfall.,,

That’s a very popular misconception, the emperor did tell his primarchs about the warp, some more than others, the kicker is that he lied about it’s nature, that’s why when several legions encountered warp creatures they thought they were just extra dimensional Xenos.

 ChaosDad wrote:

pm713 wrote:



Wow. It makes much more sense with the upbringing taken into account but still....just wow. It occurs to me that a lot of the Heresy would have been avoided if the Emperor had said to the Primarchs "I'm concerned about your wellbeing guys. So Malcador is now a therapist. Vulkan your session is tomorrow."

I know the Emperor didn't actually care about them but he was just bad taking care of things.

Well, actually the Emperor could have saved everyone a lot of grief by explaining to the Peimarch what the warp is and what lives there... Telling them about the powers that could corrupt them and arm them against it all... No, he just went to Terra to work on a secret project..,

This has nothing to do with the wisdom of the Primarchs, but with the fact that the big E, by being above it all and considering his sons as purely tools to be used, is the architect of the Heresy and of his own downfall.,,

The Emperor did explain what they were, like Formosa said, when Ra asked him why he didn't tell the Primarchs of the dark gods the Emperor told him "That which we call the warp is a universe alongside our own, seething with limitless, alien hostility. The Primarchs have always known this. What difference would it have made had If labelled the warps entities 'daemons' or 'dark gods'"

 Formosa wrote:

 ChaosDad wrote:

pm713 wrote:



Wow. It makes much more sense with the upbringing taken into account but still....just wow. It occurs to me that a lot of the Heresy would have been avoided if the Emperor had said to the Primarchs "I'm concerned about your wellbeing guys. So Malcador is now a therapist. Vulkan your session is tomorrow."

I know the Emperor didn't actually care about them but he was just bad taking care of things.

Well, actually the Emperor could have saved everyone a lot of grief by explaining to the Peimarch what the warp is and what lives there... Telling them about the powers that could corrupt them and arm them against it all... No, he just went to Terra to work on a secret project..,

This has nothing to do with the wisdom of the Primarchs, but with the fact that the big E, by being above it all and considering his sons as purely tools to be used, is the architect of the Heresy and of his own downfall.,,

That’s a very popular misconception, the emperor did tell his primarchs about the warp, some more than others, the kicker is that he lied about it’s nature, that’s why when several legions encountered warp creatures they thought they were just extra dimensional Xenos.

Personally I think if you fail to explain it properly then it counts as not telling them about it. Demons are far more than just aliens who live in a different dimension. It's like saying "This is a nuclear missile. It's just like your bolter but bigger and it goes further." It's true in a basic way but not really an explanation.

I don't think the fact he considers the Primarchs tools an excuse. Tools need maintaining and proper information to work depending on how complex they are. A missile is a tool but you can't just plonk it down somewhere and expect it to be useful.

pm713 wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 ChaosDad wrote:

pm713 wrote:



Wow. It makes much more sense with the upbringing taken into account but still....just wow. It occurs to me that a lot of the Heresy would have been avoided if the Emperor had said to the Primarchs "I'm concerned about your wellbeing guys. So Malcador is now a therapist. Vulkan your session is tomorrow."

I know the Emperor didn't actually care about them but he was just bad taking care of things.

Well, actually the Emperor could have saved everyone a lot of grief by explaining to the Peimarch what the warp is and what lives there... Telling them about the powers that could corrupt them and arm them against it all... No, he just went to Terra to work on a secret project..,

This has nothing to do with the wisdom of the Primarchs, but with the fact that the big E, by being above it all and considering his sons as purely tools to be used, is the architect of the Heresy and of his own downfall.,,

That’s a very popular misconception, the emperor did tell his primarchs about the warp, some more than others, the kicker is that he lied about it’s nature, that’s why when several legions encountered warp creatures they thought they were just extra dimensional Xenos.

Personally I think if you fail to explain it properly then it counts as not telling them about it. Demons are far more than just aliens who live in a different dimension. It's like saying "This is a nuclear missile. It's just like your bolter but bigger and it goes further." It's true in a basic way but not really an explanation.

I don't think the fact he considers the Primarchs tools an excuse. Tools need maintaining and proper information to work depending on how complex they are. A missile is a tool but you can't just plonk it down somewhere and expect it to be useful.

Not really, he explained they were a threat and were not to be trusted and that you couldn't make deals with him. That's all the information they needed to hear. Magnus new they were not to be trusted yet he made a deal with them, I think the Primarchs that turned were destined to turn, They were all tested, some went willingly others took pressure to make them turn, but I don't buy the ignorance defense. In Davin, Horus new what he was giving away, he wanted to live and he was willing to give away anything to live. Otherwise they would all have turned if it was a matter of ignorance, the other 9 knew that Chaos were not to be trusted even though they were offered power etc.

Just saying they can't be trusted doesn't really demonstrate that they're literally your desire given form and just how corrupting they are. Chaos is on a level of untrustworthiness of its own.

I'm not saying ignorance is a defence for the Primarchs who fell because they all had some other bigger factor to push them into actual Chaos following except Magnus who largely did it to himself.

How were they all tested? I'm not familiar with all of them.

I would make a vote for Russ. Out of the all the Primarchs, he was the first to realise that he and his legion were tools, not sons or heroes. He knew his place and accepted it without any of the drama of the other Primarchs.

pm713 wrote:
Just saying they can't be trusted doesn't really demonstrate that they're literally your desire given form and just how corrupting they are. Chaos is on a level of untrustworthiness of its own.

I'm not saying ignorance is a defence for the Primarchs who fell because they all had some other bigger factor to push them into actual Chaos following except Magnus who largely did it to himself.

How were they all tested? I'm not familiar with all of them.

It’s not stated in most cases but from memory

Peturabo: the eye constantly watching him, clearly instilled an air of paranoia

Sanguinius: decent of angels and later ruinstorm covers it.

Horus: pretty well documented

Angron: depending on if the old story is still canon, he was tempted after he killed a load of eldar that went to kill him after he left the pod, otherwise it was when lorgar started his ritual.

Fulgrim: lol... tempted... nope, he swan dived into chaos as soon as he knew what it was... sword helped.

Lion el’johnson: the most tempted of all the primarchs, literally every day of his life before he was found, again when kairos (possibly) tried to offer him power and glory.

Mortarion: mortarion was by degrees of his own doing, later when the destroyer hive infected him and his legion, oddly he has still never fully embraced it and still resists to a degree.. that’s willpower (ref: dark imperium)

Curze: unknown whether his visions were from chaos, if so it drove him mad.

Jaghatai: unknown

Corax: unknown

Dorn: unknown

Guilliman: unknown, possibly when konor was murdered.

Alpharius: unknown, possibly the cabals vision was somehow manipulated.

Lorgar: pretty much from the get go, but mainly when the emperor rebuffed him.

Ferrus manus: unknown

Vulkan: unknown

Russ: unknown

Magnus: pretty well known.

pm713 wrote:
Just saying they can't be trusted doesn't really demonstrate that they're literally your desire given form and just how corrupting they are. Chaos is on a level of untrustworthiness of its own.

I'm not saying ignorance is a defence for the Primarchs who fell because they all had some other bigger factor to push them into actual Chaos following except Magnus who largely did it to himself.

How were they all tested? I'm not familiar with all of them.

The most notable examples oif loyalist priamrchs being tested occurs in the novel ruinstorm. basicly chaos set up scenerios where each primarch had chances to screw up and accept chaos, some had harder tests then others true,

It's been an important part of the lore since the original Realms of Chaos books in the Rogue Trader era that knowledge and understanding of Chaos is itself corrupting. The human mind cannot fully comprehend Chaos / the Warp, and even trying to comprehend it is incredibly dangerous for all but the most strong-willed.

The Emperor keeping details of the Warp, daemons and the Chaos Gods secret is not an example of him being stupid or short-sighted. It's the exact opposite of that. He quite sensibly didn't want to risk his best generals getting corrupted by mucking about with Chaos, and "It's dangerous, so don't go mucking about with it" really should have been sufficient warning. They'd all sworn fealty to him. That means they were supposed to follow his orders.

The central tragedy of 40K is not that the Emperor was a charlatan, or just another power-hungry tyrant, or an idiot who screwed up and doomed humanity. The tragedy is that he really was humanity's last, best hope for salvation, and that he failed because humanity cannot be saved from its own failings.

(All of which makes Lorgar, of all people, the wisest primarch. Which is annoying, because he's my least favourite primarch by quite a wide margin.)

pm713 wrote:
Just saying they can't be trusted doesn't really demonstrate that they're literally your desire given form and just how corrupting they are. Chaos is on a level of untrustworthiness of its own.

I'm not saying ignorance is a defence for the Primarchs who fell because they all had some other bigger factor to push them into actual Chaos following except Magnus who largely did it to himself.

How were they all tested? I'm not familiar with all of them.

Its well established that 'all' of them were tested. Sanguinius was by Khorne, Girlyman was on his flagship etc, its well known they all were.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Duskweaver wrote:
It's been an important part of the lore since the original Realms of Chaos books in the Rogue Trader era that knowledge and understanding of Chaos is itself corrupting. The human mind cannot fully comprehend Chaos / the Warp, and even trying to comprehend it is incredibly dangerous for all but the most strong-willed.

The Emperor keeping details of the Warp, daemons and the Chaos Gods secret is not an example of him being stupid or short-sighted. It's the exact opposite of that. He quite sensibly didn't want to risk his best generals getting corrupted by mucking about with Chaos, and "It's dangerous, so don't go mucking about with it" really should have been sufficient warning. They'd all sworn fealty to him. That means they were supposed to follow his orders.

The central tragedy of 40K is not that the Emperor was a charlatan, or just another power-hungry tyrant, or an idiot who screwed up and doomed humanity. The tragedy is that he really was humanity's last, best hope for salvation, and that he failed because humanity cannot be saved from its own failings.

(All of which makes Lorgar, of all people, the wisest primarch. Which is annoying, because he's my least favourite primarch by quite a wide margin.)

Most people that say the Emperor is a hypocrite or charlatan etc. do so, based on how their own legions and legions Primarchs were treated. Through reading the lore I've always seen the Emperor as completely selfless and that he only cares about advancing and protecting the human race. He doesn't not care about killing millions of humans and using psykers for his golden throne, he just does whatever he has to do to save mankind. He'd kill 99% of mankind if it meant saving the species.

 Duskweaver wrote:
It's been an important part of the lore since the original Realms of Chaos books in the Rogue Trader era that knowledge and understanding of Chaos is itself corrupting. The human mind cannot fully comprehend Chaos / the Warp, and even trying to comprehend it is incredibly dangerous for all but the most strong-willed.

The Emperor keeping details of the Warp, daemons and the Chaos Gods secret is not an example of him being stupid or short-sighted. It's the exact opposite of that. He quite sensibly didn't want to risk his best generals getting corrupted by mucking about with Chaos, and "It's dangerous, so don't go mucking about with it" really should have been sufficient warning. They'd all sworn fealty to him. That means they were supposed to follow his orders.

The central tragedy of 40K is not that the Emperor was a charlatan, or just another power-hungry tyrant, or an idiot who screwed up and doomed humanity. The tragedy is that he really was humanity's last, best hope for salvation, and that he failed because humanity cannot be saved from its own failings.

(All of which makes Lorgar, of all people, the wisest primarch. Which is annoying, because he's my least favourite primarch by quite a wide margin.)

It's pretty clear that Primarchs are very much not human. Even then it's pretty clear he didn't really make it clear how dangerous it is. The swearing fealty thing isn't an excuse either as I can think of three Primarchs with pretty big loyalty issues a blind man could see.

The central tragedy is supposed to be that but gets undermined by the lore showing that he really isn't some grand saviour.

A comment about the Angron and Eldar thing - That's always bothered me, how hard is it to kill a child? I mean really. I know the Eldar had recently fallen from the only significant power in existence at the time but killing a child should not fail that badly.

pm713 wrote:

 Duskweaver wrote:
It's been an important part of the lore since the original Realms of Chaos books in the Rogue Trader era that knowledge and understanding of Chaos is itself corrupting. The human mind cannot fully comprehend Chaos / the Warp, and even trying to comprehend it is incredibly dangerous for all but the most strong-willed.

The Emperor keeping details of the Warp, daemons and the Chaos Gods secret is not an example of him being stupid or short-sighted. It's the exact opposite of that. He quite sensibly didn't want to risk his best generals getting corrupted by mucking about with Chaos, and "It's dangerous, so don't go mucking about with it" really should have been sufficient warning. They'd all sworn fealty to him. That means they were supposed to follow his orders.

The central tragedy of 40K is not that the Emperor was a charlatan, or just another power-hungry tyrant, or an idiot who screwed up and doomed humanity. The tragedy is that he really was humanity's last, best hope for salvation, and that he failed because humanity cannot be saved from its own failings.

(All of which makes Lorgar, of all people, the wisest primarch. Which is annoying, because he's my least favourite primarch by quite a wide margin.)

It's pretty clear that Primarchs are very much not human. Even then it's pretty clear he didn't really make it clear how dangerous it is. The swearing fealty thing isn't an excuse either as I can think of three Primarchs with pretty big loyalty issues a blind man could see. What kind of moron would ignore that warning, thinking he didn't explain that as best he could so lets go find out from the things we aren't supposed to trust.

The central tragedy is supposed to be that but gets undermined by the lore showing that he really isn't some grand saviour.

A comment about the Angron and Eldar thing - That's always bothered me, how hard is it to kill a child? I mean really. I know the Eldar had recently fallen from the only significant power in existence at the time but killing a child should not fail that badly.

Clarity isn't the issue, the Primarchs are not children, the Emperor told them that the entities of the warp can't be trusted and you can stay whole while making bargains with them. How in any way shape or form is that going to make a super human mind think 'well what does he mean by trust, or whole, lets find out'. Its a pretty clear warning. People thin the Primarchs are children who can't take responsibility for their actions unless the Emperor gives them hour long seminars of the dangers of the galaxy.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Duskweaver wrote:
It's been an important part of the lore since the original Realms of Chaos books in the Rogue Trader era that knowledge and understanding of Chaos is itself corrupting. The human mind cannot fully comprehend Chaos / the Warp, and even trying to comprehend it is incredibly dangerous for all but the most strong-willed.

The Emperor keeping details of the Warp, daemons and the Chaos Gods secret is not an example of him being stupid or short-sighted. It's the exact opposite of that. He quite sensibly didn't want to risk his best generals getting corrupted by mucking about with Chaos, and "It's dangerous, so don't go mucking about with it" really should have been sufficient warning. They'd all sworn fealty to him. That means they were supposed to follow his orders.

The central tragedy of 40K is not that the Emperor was a charlatan, or just another power-hungry tyrant, or an idiot who screwed up and doomed humanity. The tragedy is that he really was humanity's last, best hope for salvation, and that he failed because humanity cannot be saved from its own failings.

(All of which makes Lorgar, of all people, the wisest primarch. Which is annoying, because he's my least favourite primarch by quite a wide margin.)

It's pretty clear that Primarchs are very much not human. Even then it's pretty clear he didn't really make it clear how dangerous it is. The swearing fealty thing isn't an excuse either as I can think of three Primarchs with pretty big loyalty issues a blind man could see. What kind of moron would ignore that warning, thinking he didn't explain that as best he could so lets go find out from the things we aren't supposed to trust.

The central tragedy is supposed to be that but gets undermined by the lore showing that he really isn't some grand saviour.

A comment about the Angron and Eldar thing - That's always bothered me, how hard is it to kill a child? I mean really. I know the Eldar had recently fallen from the only significant power in existence at the time but killing a child should not fail that badly.

Clarity isn't the issue, the Primarchs are not children, the Emperor told them they can't be trusted and you can stay whole while making bargains with them. How in any way shape or form is that going to make a super human mind think 'well what does he mean by trust, or whole, lets find out'. Its a pretty clear warning. People thin the Primarchs are children who can't take responsibility for their actions unless the Emperor gives them hour long seminars of the dangers of the galaxy.

That's part of the issue. They're people who are so smart, powerful and charismatic you can dump them on a planet and they'll be able to unite it, create a loyal following and dramatically improve things there given time. Compared to what they spent their lives around they're demigods. So saying "it'll cost you and they're untrustworthy" isn't much. Paying something is part of any deal and the fact that they're untrustworthy means nothing when a person reasonably believes they're incredibly smart. A better way of doing would be going "The Warp entities are your desires given sentience, they can and will destroy you. You'll think you can outsmart you but that's the first mistake. See that Warp Storm? The one by Cadia? That's most of the remains of the Eldar Empire which would crush us like insects. They got cocky and now they're refugees on the verge of extinction." It's a five minute conversation. It would have taken less than two hours to do that with every Primarch. A small price to pay for not ruining almost everything.

pm713 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Duskweaver wrote:
It's been an important part of the lore since the original Realms of Chaos books in the Rogue Trader era that knowledge and understanding of Chaos is itself corrupting. The human mind cannot fully comprehend Chaos / the Warp, and even trying to comprehend it is incredibly dangerous for all but the most strong-willed.

The Emperor keeping details of the Warp, daemons and the Chaos Gods secret is not an example of him being stupid or short-sighted. It's the exact opposite of that. He quite sensibly didn't want to risk his best generals getting corrupted by mucking about with Chaos, and "It's dangerous, so don't go mucking about with it" really should have been sufficient warning. They'd all sworn fealty to him. That means they were supposed to follow his orders.

The central tragedy of 40K is not that the Emperor was a charlatan, or just another power-hungry tyrant, or an idiot who screwed up and doomed humanity. The tragedy is that he really was humanity's last, best hope for salvation, and that he failed because humanity cannot be saved from its own failings.

(All of which makes Lorgar, of all people, the wisest primarch. Which is annoying, because he's my least favourite primarch by quite a wide margin.)

It's pretty clear that Primarchs are very much not human. Even then it's pretty clear he didn't really make it clear how dangerous it is. The swearing fealty thing isn't an excuse either as I can think of three Primarchs with pretty big loyalty issues a blind man could see. What kind of moron would ignore that warning, thinking he didn't explain that as best he could so lets go find out from the things we aren't supposed to trust.

The central tragedy is supposed to be that but gets undermined by the lore showing that he really isn't some grand saviour.

A comment about the Angron and Eldar thing - That's always bothered me, how hard is it to kill a child? I mean really. I know the Eldar had recently fallen from the only significant power in existence at the time but killing a child should not fail that badly.

Clarity isn't the issue, the Primarchs are not children, the Emperor told them they can't be trusted and you can stay whole while making bargains with them. How in any way shape or form is that going to make a super human mind think 'well what does he mean by trust, or whole, lets find out'. Its a pretty clear warning. People thin the Primarchs are children who can't take responsibility for their actions unless the Emperor gives them hour long seminars of the dangers of the galaxy.

That's part of the issue. They're people who are so smart, powerful and charismatic you can dump them on a planet and they'll be able to unite it, create a loyal following and dramatically improve things there given time. Compared to what they spent their lives around they're demigods. So saying "it'll cost you and they're untrustworthy" isn't much. Paying something is part of any deal and the fact that they're untrustworthy means nothing when a person reasonably believes they're incredibly smart. A better way of doing would be going "The Warp entities are your desires given sentience, they can and will destroy you. You'll think you can outsmart you but that's the first mistake. See that Warp Storm? The one by Cadia? That's most of the remains of the Eldar Empire which would crush us like insects. They got cocky and now they're refugees on the verge of extinction." It's a five minute conversation. It would have taken less than two hours to do that with every Primarch. A small price to pay for not ruining almost everything.

No the Emperor said himself all the Primarchs knew of the extents of dangers from the warp. he created the labriarius solely to teach the dangers of the warp.

Think you getting that mixed up Delvarus, the emperor did not create the librarius, Magnus sanguinius and Jaghatai did, they petitioned for its creation.

The emperor almost certainly allowed psykers in the legions prior to “librarians” though.

 Formosa wrote:
Think you getting that mixed up Delvarus, the emperor did not create the librarius, Magnus sanguinius and Jaghatai did, they petitioned for its creation.

The emperor almost certainly allowed psykers in the legions prior to “librarians” though.

I meant ended the Librarius.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Think you getting that mixed up Delvarus, the emperor did not create the librarius, Magnus sanguinius and Jaghatai did, they petitioned for its creation.

The emperor almost certainly allowed psykers in the legions prior to “librarians” though.

I meant ended the Librarius.

He most certainly did that!

pm713 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Duskweaver wrote:
It's been an important part of the lore since the original Realms of Chaos books in the Rogue Trader era that knowledge and understanding of Chaos is itself corrupting. The human mind cannot fully comprehend Chaos / the Warp, and even trying to comprehend it is incredibly dangerous for all but the most strong-willed.

The Emperor keeping details of the Warp, daemons and the Chaos Gods secret is not an example of him being stupid or short-sighted. It's the exact opposite of that. He quite sensibly didn't want to risk his best generals getting corrupted by mucking about with Chaos, and "It's dangerous, so don't go mucking about with it" really should have been sufficient warning. They'd all sworn fealty to him. That means they were supposed to follow his orders.

The central tragedy of 40K is not that the Emperor was a charlatan, or just another power-hungry tyrant, or an idiot who screwed up and doomed humanity. The tragedy is that he really was humanity's last, best hope for salvation, and that he failed because humanity cannot be saved from its own failings.

(All of which makes Lorgar, of all people, the wisest primarch. Which is annoying, because he's my least favourite primarch by quite a wide margin.)

It's pretty clear that Primarchs are very much not human. Even then it's pretty clear he didn't really make it clear how dangerous it is. The swearing fealty thing isn't an excuse either as I can think of three Primarchs with pretty big loyalty issues a blind man could see. What kind of moron would ignore that warning, thinking he didn't explain that as best he could so lets go find out from the things we aren't supposed to trust.

The central tragedy is supposed to be that but gets undermined by the lore showing that he really isn't some grand saviour.

A comment about the Angron and Eldar thing - That's always bothered me, how hard is it to kill a child? I mean really. I know the Eldar had recently fallen from the only significant power in existence at the time but killing a child should not fail that badly.

Clarity isn't the issue, the Primarchs are not children, the Emperor told them they can't be trusted and you can stay whole while making bargains with them. How in any way shape or form is that going to make a super human mind think 'well what does he mean by trust, or whole, lets find out'. Its a pretty clear warning. People thin the Primarchs are children who can't take responsibility for their actions unless the Emperor gives them hour long seminars of the dangers of the galaxy.

That's part of the issue. They're people who are so smart, powerful and charismatic you can dump them on a planet and they'll be able to unite it, create a loyal following and dramatically improve things there given time. Compared to what they spent their lives around they're demigods. So saying "it'll cost you and they're untrustworthy" isn't much. Paying something is part of any deal and the fact that they're untrustworthy means nothing when a person reasonably believes they're incredibly smart. A better way of doing would be going "The Warp entities are your desires given sentience, they can and will destroy you. You'll think you can outsmart you but that's the first mistake. See that Warp Storm? The one by Cadia? That's most of the remains of the Eldar Empire which would crush us like insects. They got cocky and now they're refugees on the verge of extinction." It's a five minute conversation. It would have taken less than two hours to do that with every Primarch. A small price to pay for not ruining almost everything.

Plus if this wasn't a warning I don't know what is ""Woe betide he who ignores my warning or breaks faith with me. He shall be my enemy, and I will visit such destruction upon him and all his followers that, until the end of all things, he shall rue the day he turned from my light." The Emperor at Nikaea. Magnus himself shows that he knew the dangers “The consequences will be mine alone to bear,” interrupted Magnus. “Now do as I ask.” “My lord, I will always obey, but the spell to break into the alattice-way calls for bargains to be struck with the most terrible creatures of the Great Ocean, beings whose names translate as... daemons.”“There is little beyond your knowledge, Ahriman

That’s true Delvarus but the whole Nikaea incedent has been thrown into a new light after first lord of the imperium and.. forget its name, the one where they find mortarion.

It seems pretty clear the thousand sons were set up to fail in the first place and had the heresy not happened they would just be one of the “unnamed” legions, then some other legion, probably the word bearers would suffer the emperors wrath for whatever contrived reason he found... likely they were too religious.

As much as I don’t like it, the primarch novels and first lord of the imperium seem to be pushing the overarching story that the emperor planned to off the legions one by one and then have the remnants off each other... but chaos happened...

 Formosa wrote:
That’s true Delvarus but the whole Nikaea incedent has been thrown into a new light after first lord of the imperium and.. forget its name, the one where they find mortarion.

It seems pretty clear the thousand sons were set up to fail in the first place and had the heresy not happened they would just be one of the “unnamed” legions, then some other legion, probably the word bearers would suffer the emperors wrath for whatever contrived reason he found... likely they were too religious.

As much as I don’t like it, the primarch novels and first lord of the imperium seem to be pushing the overarching story that the emperor planned to off the legions one by one and then have the remnants off each other... but chaos happened...

How were they set up to fail? I have to disagree about it being a contrived reason, it was due to Russ and Mortarion etc. that brought the council of Nikaea to bear, I think the Emperor jumped on that chance to censure Magnus but not doing it himself as Magnus would revolt at that decision because the Emperor would think that Magnus would see him as a hypocrite, but Magnus had bargained with chaos and consorted with daemons letting his legion use them as familiars, It wasn't contrived he had a good reason for it. The word bearers already suffered the Emperors wrath by destroying Monarchia but yeah they'd probably get censured too. I think the Emperor probably was going to kill them off, they couldn't be diplomats like the Emperor said he wanted of them after the crusade, they were too prideful and war hungry. Think of all the Astartes that became traitors/daemon princes before the Heresy, they all turned because they were sent to planets to lead politically or train new scouts etc. The nurgle daemon rprince Eugen Temba on the moon of Davin for instance.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
No the Emperor said himself all the Primarchs knew of the extents of dangers from the warp. he created the labriarius solely to teach the dangers of the warp.

This is not true at all. pm713 and I may not agree with the amount of culpability Magnus has for his own downfall but we do agree that the Primarchs had no fething idea what chaos was or was capable of.

Even Lorgar, the most religious of the Primarchs and the most likely to know about the chaos gods had no idea what they were or even that they existed until he made his pilgrimage to the eye of terror.

Not knowing about the true nature of chaos and daemons doomed many of the Primarchs to fall because they were not prepared for the corrupting influence and did not guard themselves against it.

pm713 wrote:
...They're people who are so smart, powerful and charismatic you can dump them on a planet and they'll be able to unite it, create a loyal following and dramatically improve things there given time. Compared to what they spent their lives around they're demigods. So saying "it'll cost you and they're untrustworthy" isn't much. Paying something is part of any deal and the fact that they're untrustworthy means nothing when a person reasonably believes they're incredibly smart....

This, 1000x times this. "These creatures are not trustworthy" is an understatement so massive that it is dangerous in itself. This warning implies you can still deal with them so long as you are careful and expect betrayal at every turn, but that isn't how chaos works. Once you start down that road your soul is forfeit, and there is NO escaping from it no matter how clever you think you are.

 Duskweaver wrote:

The central tragedy of 40K is not that the Emperor was a charlatan, or just another power-hungry tyrant, or an idiot who screwed up and doomed humanity. The tragedy is that he really was humanity's last, best hope for salvation, and that he failed because humanity cannot be saved from its own failings.

I disagree completely. Sure there were some Primarchs who were pretty much doomed to fall to chaos, like Curze. Others were pushed to chaos directly through the emperor's actions (or inactions) like Angron. Others fell because they did not understand the true nature of chaos until it was too late like Magnus and Fulgrim.

The emperor was planning on pulling another Thunder Warriors with the Primarchs and space marines anyway. The chaos gods seized that and utilized it to create the situation in which the Horus Heresy was possible. However, the fault for the Horus heresy lies squarely on the emperor's shoulders. In all of his planning and scheming he forgot to take into account the human element. He was so powerful and so "above" everyone else that he forgot to take into account how real humans think and feel and how that alters their behavior and motivations. In fact he misjudged so badly that it very well may have doomed the very race he was trying to save.

Call these things "human failings" if you wish, but I personally believe these things are what defines humans as human, and set us apart from things like daemons. They are a strength, not a weakness. The fact that the emperor couldn't even understand why a son would need to feel loved by his father speaks volumes about how far disconnected he was from the human condition.

BrianDavion wrote:

 BigbyWolf wrote:
Pre-Heresy it was probably Horus just because he was brought into the Imperium far sooner than his brothers and wisdom by definition comes with experience. Many will point to his turning to Chaos as proof to the contrary but he was deceived with false information and after his corruption his actions were no longer his own as can be proven when he laments his actions to his father while on the verge of death begging to die before the dark gods can control him again...

given the HH series has not reached the point where Horus is killed I'd question that, also ALL the primarchs where tempted at some point or another, Horus failed his test of character

Major events like the deaths of Horus and Malcador as well as the siege of Terra In general have already been well established in the lore long before the black library HH started. As I already said he was presented with false information by the dark gods who came before him as beings that seemed reasonable and benevolent showing him a vision of the 41st millennium as it would be telling him that the emperor would bring about this future when in fact they were tricking Horus into causing it himself...

 BigbyWolf wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 BigbyWolf wrote:
Pre-Heresy it was probably Horus just because he was brought into the Imperium far sooner than his brothers and wisdom by definition comes with experience. Many will point to his turning to Chaos as proof to the contrary but he was deceived with false information and after his corruption his actions were no longer his own as can be proven when he laments his actions to his father while on the verge of death begging to die before the dark gods can control him again...

given the HH series has not reached the point where Horus is killed I'd question that, also ALL the primarchs where tempted at some point or another, Horus failed his test of character

Major events like the deaths of Horus and Malcador as well as the siege of Terra In general have already been well established in the lore long before the black library HH started. As I already said he was presented with false information by the dark gods who came before him as beings that seemed reasonable and benevolent showing him a vision of the 41st millennium as it would be telling him that the emperor would bring about this future when in fact they were tricking Horus into causing it himself...

We know the broad strokes of what happened yes. details like "Horus begged the emperor to kill him in a moment of clarity" is something I'd avoid stating as a definative fact. although Wolfsbane DOES have some evidance to suggest that may be what happens. To be honest I hope not. Horus is more intreasting if he choose and was complicant all along with his damnnationas opposed to someone who was just posessed

w1zard wrote:
I disagree completely. Sure there were some Primarchs who were pretty much doomed to fall to chaos, like Curze. Others were pushed to chaos directly through the emperor's actions (or inactions) like Angron. Others fell because they did not understand the true nature of chaos until it was too late like Magnus and Fulgrim.

No primarch fell because they had "too little understanding of Chaos". There is no level of knowledge of Chaos that makes you immune to corruption. Knowledge of Chaos is itself corrupting, as has been established as a core part of the concept of Chaos in the WH/40K mythos since the beginning. That's why almost all Inquisitors who live long enough end up as radicals, and why the Inquisition and the Grey Knights mind-wipe or kill people who have had contact with daemons. If the Emperor had told the primarchs exactly what Chaos, daemons and the Dark Gods were, it would have caused more (perhaps all) of them to 'fall'.

According to Dark Imperium, even Guilliman is tempted by Chaos every time he teleports, because being shunted through the Warp gives him an inkling of the true nature of his soul and how it relates to the Warp. Guilliman states outright that he would end up damned if he allowed himself to accept the 'enlightenment' that his own soul was effectively just another Warp entity.

So let me be absolutely clear. If the Emperor had actually told the primarchs everything we as omniscient outside observers know about souls, the Warp, daemons and Chaos in the 40K setting, then most or all of them would have ended up joining the Dark Gods. Keeping them ignorant was the best thing the Emperor could do to reduce the chances of them falling.

The emperor was planning on pulling another Thunder Warriors with the Primarchs and space marines anyway.

So what? Only a fool would keep a bunch of transhuman supersoldiers around once they were no longer necessary. I'm not claiming the Emperor is nice, just that he is not an idiot. Think of him as Anasurimbor Kellhus, not as Hippy-Space-Jesus. That humanity's would-be saviour is an inhuman monster is also a core part of the tragedy of the setting.

The chaos gods seized that and utilized it to create the situation in which the Horus Heresy was possible. However, the fault for the Horus heresy lies squarely on the emperor's shoulders.

The Chaos Gods would just have exploited something else. It was never actually possible for the Emperor to succeed.

In all of his planning and scheming he forgot to take into account the human element. He was so powerful and so "above" everyone else that he forgot to take into account how real humans think and feel and how that alters their behavior and motivations. In fact he misjudged so badly that it very well may have doomed the very race he was trying to save.

The Emperor does seem bad at understanding human nature for someone who has been hiding among them since 8000BC, until you realise that he's not making his decisions based on his understanding of people, but rather on his prophetic visions. He sees multiple possible futures and then has to try and guide events toward the best (or rather least awful) one. Whether living weapon #16 is going to get pissy about being sidelined in favour of actual humans or not probably seems like a minor, even inconsequential, detail on the sort of timescales the Emperor looks at.

And it's pretty likely that the Emperor's visions were being subtly edited by Tzeentch. So, again, he never really had a chance.

Call these things "human failings" if you wish, but I personally believe these things are what defines humans as human, and set us apart from things like daemons.

You're right that those things make us human, but not that they "set us apart from daemons". They are what daemons are literally made of. That is precisely why humanity cannot be 'saved' from Chaos. Anything other than complete selflessness and emotionlessness opens you up to Chaos. To be properly human is to be already half in Chaos' corner.

To digress slightly, it is possible the Emperor is called "The Anathema" by daemons because he is the exception to the rule: an (apparent) human who has no Chaos in his soul, no selfishness or desire or emotion that daemons can get a hook into. He isn't a person, really, but an embodiment of his mission to save humanity whatever the cost. But that also makes him fundamentally inhuman. A monster.

Grey Knights are similar, a sort of pale echo of the Emperor. And they're pretty monstrous too. Again, this is the tragedy of the setting. To be a normal human who loves his/her children, has hopes and desires, wants to better his/her life and so on... is to be already on the road to damnation. Humanity can't be saved from itself.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
I think the codex was very unwise, to think you could codify war, especially when your most numerous of enemies have no real tactics other than strapping rockets to their backs and flying into the enemies with shootas and choppas lol

He didn't codify it to one set thing though. It was to be adapted and adjusted as needed. More of organizating marines to work roughly same. Not really that different to what is in real world. you have multiple countries looking for more unified organizations and equipment to make working together easier.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ChaosDad wrote:
This has nothing to do with the wisdom of the Primarchs, but with the fact that the big E, by being above it all and considering his sons as purely tools to be used, is the architect of the Heresy and of his own downfall.,,

Seeing he wanted astartes to kill each other to get rid of them ala thunderwarriors no surprise. HH was intentional thing by the big E.

w1zard wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
No the Emperor said himself all the Primarchs knew of the extents of dangers from the warp. he created the labriarius solely to teach the dangers of the warp.

This is not true at all. pm713 and I may not agree with the amount of culpability Magnus has for his own downfall but we do agree that the Primarchs had no fething idea what chaos was or was capable of.

Even Lorgar, the most religious of the Primarchs and the most likely to know about the chaos gods had no idea what they were or even that they existed until he made his pilgrimage to the eye of terror.

Not knowing about the true nature of chaos and daemons doomed many of the Primarchs to fall because they were not prepared for the corrupting influence and did not guard themselves against it.

pm713 wrote:
...They're people who are so smart, powerful and charismatic you can dump them on a planet and they'll be able to unite it, create a loyal following and dramatically improve things there given time. Compared to what they spent their lives around they're demigods. So saying "it'll cost you and they're untrustworthy" isn't much. Paying something is part of any deal and the fact that they're untrustworthy means nothing when a person reasonably believes they're incredibly smart....

This, 1000x times this. "These creatures are not trustworthy" is an understatement so massive that it is dangerous in itself. This warning implies you can still deal with them so long as you are careful and expect betrayal at every turn, but that isn't how chaos works. Once you start down that road your soul is forfeit, and there is NO escaping from it no matter how clever you think you are.

 Duskweaver wrote:

The central tragedy of 40K is not that the Emperor was a charlatan, or just another power-hungry tyrant, or an idiot who screwed up and doomed humanity. The tragedy is that he really was humanity's last, best hope for salvation, and that he failed because humanity cannot be saved from its own failings.

I disagree completely. Sure there were some Primarchs who were pretty much doomed to fall to chaos, like Curze. Others were pushed to chaos directly through the emperor's actions (or inactions) like Angron. Others fell because they did not understand the true nature of chaos until it was too late like Magnus and Fulgrim.

The emperor was planning on pulling another Thunder Warriors with the Primarchs and space marines anyway. The chaos gods seized that and utilized it to create the situation in which the Horus Heresy was possible. However, the fault for the Horus heresy lies squarely on the emperor's shoulders. In all of his planning and scheming he forgot to take into account the human element. He was so powerful and so "above" everyone else that he forgot to take into account how real humans think and feel and how that alters their behavior and motivations. In fact he misjudged so badly that it very well may have doomed the very race he was trying to save.

Call these things "human failings" if you wish, but I personally believe these things are what defines humans as human, and set us apart from things like daemons. They are a strength, not a weakness. The fact that the emperor couldn't even understand why a son would need to feel loved by his father speaks volumes about how far disconnected he was from the human condition.

Magnus knew exactly what he was doing “The consequences will be mine alone to bear,” interrupted Magnus. “Now do as I ask.” “My lord, I will always obey, but the spell to break into the alattice-way calls for bargains to be struck with the most terrible creatures of the Great Ocean, beings whose names translate as... daemons.”“There is little beyond your knowledge, Ahriman

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Magnus knew exactly what he was doing “The consequences will be mine alone to bear,” interrupted Magnus. “Now do as I ask.” “My lord, I will always obey, but the spell to break into the alattice-way calls for bargains to be struck with the most terrible creatures of the Great Ocean, beings whose names translate as... daemons.”“There is little beyond your knowledge, Ahriman

Yes, but again, he thought he was saving the Imperium by warning the emperor of Horus' betrayal, even if it meant that he would get into huge trouble for it later. Magnus had no idea that the emperor was working on the human webway, nor that making deals with chaos would mean selling his soul and the souls of his legion... In fact him saying that the "consequences would be his alone to bear" pretty strongly implies that Magnus thought that what he was doing would have no effect on the wellbeing of his legion whatsoever.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Duskweaver wrote:
No primarch fell because they had "too little understanding of Chaos". There is no level of knowledge of Chaos that makes you immune to corruption. Knowledge of Chaos is itself corrupting, as has been established as a core part of the concept of Chaos in the WH/40K mythos since the beginning. That's why almost all Inquisitors who live long enough end up as radicals, and why the Inquisition and the Grey Knights mind-wipe or kill people who have had contact with daemons. If the Emperor had told the primarchs exactly what Chaos, daemons and the Dark Gods were, it would have caused more (perhaps all) of them to 'fall'.

According to Dark Imperium, even Guilliman is tempted by Chaos every time he teleports, because being shunted through the Warp gives him an inkling of the true nature of his soul and how it relates to the Warp. Guilliman states outright that he would end up damned if he allowed himself to accept the 'enlightenment' that his own soul was effectively just another Warp entity.

So let me be absolutely clear. If the Emperor had actually told the primarchs everything we as omniscient outside observers know about souls, the Warp, daemons and Chaos in the 40K setting, then most or all of them would have ended up joining the Dark Gods. Keeping them ignorant was the best thing the Emperor could do to reduce the chances of them falling.

I think this is pretty blatantly false. There are a lot of 40k novels where characters understanding the nature of chaos helps them to protect themselves from it. The Ciaphas Cain novels, and Ravenor come to mind.

The fact that the Grey Knights even exist and that none have ever fallen to chaos despite being confronted by the true nature of chaos pretty much as their job also implies that it is not impossible to resist chaos. They do things like use the blood of battle sisters in rituals to summon demons and yet they remain uncorrupted. The Grey Knights are also far from emotionless, in fact I remember a certain Grey Knight Grandmaster getting pretty pissed off at the Dark Angels chapter master and an Imperial Guard Colonel in one story.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Duskweaver wrote:

So what? Only a fool would keep a bunch of transhuman supersoldiers around once they were no longer necessary. I'm not claiming the Emperor is nice, just that he is not an idiot. Think of him as Anasurimbor Kellhus, not as Hippy-Space-Jesus. That humanity's would-be saviour is an inhuman monster is also a core part of the tragedy of the setting.

Sure, but then you don't get to complain when they get smart and fight back. And if they fight back and win you doubly don't get to complain.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Duskweaver wrote:

You're right that those things make us human, but not that they "set us apart from daemons". They are what daemons are literally made of. That is precisely why humanity cannot be 'saved' from Chaos. Anything other than complete selflessness and emotionlessness opens you up to Chaos. To be properly human is to be already half in Chaos' corner.

No, daemons are explicitly stated to be the NEGATIVE emotions of humanity. Greed, anger, overbearing lust, that sort of thing. I think love is an emotion that most daemons would consider anathema and could not feed off of. Simply feeling emotions does not damn you to fall to chaos eventually, but it DOES offer a vector by which your soul can be infected by chaos if you aren't careful. I also disagree with your assessment that anyone who lives long enough will eventually fall to chaos (ala inquisitors turning radical). Amberly Vail from the Ciaphas Cain series is a good example of an extremely old Inquisitor who is still puritan, and there are many other examples.

Also, being a radical inquisitor does not imply you soul has fallen to chaos or that you are controlled by chaos. Being radical simply means that you think that chaos can be CAREFULLY used to fight itself. Whether or not that is correct is up for debate.

To put it simply I think you are misinterpreting quite a bit.

EDIT: All commissars are taught about the chaos gods in training including their names, areas of corruption, symbols, behaviors of their worshippers, and how each one likes to corrupt mortals. (SOURCE: Ciaphas Cain Hero of the Imperium). This is done so that commissars can spot the influence of the ruinous powers before it is too late. I'm sure there are some commissars who fall to chaos but it is extremely uncommon. This is further proof that your assertion that educating the primarchs about chaos would have caused them all to turn. Or that simple "knowledge" about chaos is corrupting in itself. Hell Cain at one point explains everything to a room full of imperial guard officers, (with inquisitorial approval) and to my knowledge none of them ended up turning.

w1zard wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Magnus knew exactly what he was doing “The consequences will be mine alone to bear,” interrupted Magnus. “Now do as I ask.” “My lord, I will always obey, but the spell to break into the alattice-way calls for bargains to be struck with the most terrible creatures of the Great Ocean, beings whose names translate as... daemons.”“There is little beyond your knowledge, Ahriman

Yes, but again, he thought he was saving the Imperium by warning the emperor of Horus' betrayal, even if it meant that he would get into huge trouble for it later. Magnus had no idea that the emperor was working on the human webway, nor that making deals with chaos would mean selling his soul and the souls of his legion... In fact him saying that the "consequences would be his alone to bear" pretty strongly implies that Magnus thought that what he was doing would have no effect on the wellbeing of his legion whatsoever.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Duskweaver wrote:
No primarch fell because they had "too little understanding of Chaos". There is no level of knowledge of Chaos that makes you immune to corruption. Knowledge of Chaos is itself corrupting, as has been established as a core part of the concept of Chaos in the WH/40K mythos since the beginning. That's why almost all Inquisitors who live long enough end up as radicals, and why the Inquisition and the Grey Knights mind-wipe or kill people who have had contact with daemons. If the Emperor had told the primarchs exactly what Chaos, daemons and the Dark Gods were, it would have caused more (perhaps all) of them to 'fall'.

According to Dark Imperium, even Guilliman is tempted by Chaos every time he teleports, because being shunted through the Warp gives him an inkling of the true nature of his soul and how it relates to the Warp. Guilliman states outright that he would end up damned if he allowed himself to accept the 'enlightenment' that his own soul was effectively just another Warp entity.

So let me be absolutely clear. If the Emperor had actually told the primarchs everything we as omniscient outside observers know about souls, the Warp, daemons and Chaos in the 40K setting, then most or all of them would have ended up joining the Dark Gods. Keeping them ignorant was the best thing the Emperor could do to reduce the chances of them falling.

I think this is pretty blatantly false. There are a lot of 40k novels where characters understanding the nature of chaos helps them to protect themselves from it. The Ciaphas Cain novels, and Ravenor come to mind.

The fact that the Grey Knights even exist and that none have ever fallen to chaos despite being confronted by the true nature of chaos pretty much as their job also implies that it is not impossible to resist chaos. They do things like use the blood of battle sisters in rituals to summon demons and yet they remain uncorrupted. The Grey Knights are also far from emotionless, in fact I remember a certain Grey Knight Grandmaster getting pretty pissed off at the Dark Angels chapter master and an Imperial Guard Colonel in one story.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Duskweaver wrote:

So what? Only a fool would keep a bunch of transhuman supersoldiers around once they were no longer necessary. I'm not claiming the Emperor is nice, just that he is not an idiot. Think of him as Anasurimbor Kellhus, not as Hippy-Space-Jesus. That humanity's would-be saviour is an inhuman monster is also a core part of the tragedy of the setting.

Sure, but then you don't get to complain when they get smart and fight back. And if they fight back and win you doubly don't get to complain.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Duskweaver wrote:

You're right that those things make us human, but not that they "set us apart from daemons". They are what daemons are literally made of. That is precisely why humanity cannot be 'saved' from Chaos. Anything other than complete selflessness and emotionlessness opens you up to Chaos. To be properly human is to be already half in Chaos' corner.

No, daemons are explicitly stated to be the NEGATIVE emotions of humanity. Greed, anger, overbearing lust, that sort of thing. I think love is an emotion that most daemons would consider anathema and could not feed off of. Simply feeling emotions does not damn you to fall to chaos eventually, but it DOES offer a vector by which your soul can be infected by chaos if you aren't careful. I also disagree with your assessment that anyone who lives long enough will eventually fall to chaos (ala inquisitors turning radical). Amberly Vail from the Ciaphas Cain series is a good example of an extremely old Inquisitor who is still puritan, and there are many other examples.

Also, being a radical inquisitor does not imply you soul has fallen to chaos or that you are controlled by chaos. Being radical simply means that you think that chaos can be CAREFULLY used to fight itself. Whether or not that is correct is up for debate.

To put it simply I think you are misinterpreting quite a bit.

Magnus trying to save the Imperium is irrelevant, that's why he disobeyed, but we are talking about whether the Primarchs knew of the dangers, he knew exactly what he was doing and he knew the consequences. He knew exactly how dangerous making deals with the great ocean was, you are kinda clutching at straws now trying to defend him. I've given the best evidence of Magnus knowing what he was doing, straight from his mouth about making bargains with the great ocean and still you are just saying 'yeah but the Emperor still didn't explain it.'