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Made in gb
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We always debate about the strongest but which Primarch do you think was the wisest?

I think it was Sangiunuis (Not a blood angel player)

Horus was probably the wisest traitor Primarch but out of all of them I still think Sannyshoes was the wisest.

The least was Magnus I would say.
   
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 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
We always debate about the strongest but which Primarch do you think was the wisest?

I think it was Sangiunuis (Not a blood angel player)

Horus was probably the wisest traitor Primarch but out of all of them I still think Sannyshoes was the wisest.

The least was Magnus I would say.

Agreed on Magnus being the least wise.

I'd say the 'wisest' was a tossup between Sanguinius and Guilliman, although Khan definitely channels Confucius a few times in the lore and should probably get an honorable mention.
   
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w1zard wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
We always debate about the strongest but which Primarch do you think was the wisest?

I think it was Sangiunuis (Not a blood angel player)

Horus was probably the wisest traitor Primarch but out of all of them I still think Sannyshoes was the wisest.

The least was Magnus I would say.

Agreed on Magnus being the least wise.

I'd say the 'wisest' was a tossup between Sanguinius and Guilliman, although Khan definitely channels Confucius a few times in the lore and should probably get an honorable mention.


I think the codex was very unwise, to think you could codify war, especially when your most numerous of enemies have no real tactics other than strapping rockets to their backs and flying into the enemies with shootas and choppas lol
   
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 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
w1zard wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
We always debate about the strongest but which Primarch do you think was the wisest?

I think it was Sangiunuis (Not a blood angel player)

Horus was probably the wisest traitor Primarch but out of all of them I still think Sannyshoes was the wisest.

The least was Magnus I would say.

Agreed on Magnus being the least wise.

I'd say the 'wisest' was a tossup between Sanguinius and Guilliman, although Khan definitely channels Confucius a few times in the lore and should probably get an honorable mention.


I think the codex was very unwise, to think you could codify war, especially when your most numerous of enemies have no real tactics other than strapping rockets to their backs and flying into the enemies with shootas and choppas lol


Codex was always meant to only be a guideline, never aboslute and wasn't supposed to replace adaptive thinking. And we can see in his Primarch book that good old Roboute knew how to fight Orks quite well.
   
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Engrenages wrote:

Codex was always meant to only be a guideline, never aboslute and wasn't supposed to replace adaptive thinking. And we can see in his Primarch book that good old Roboute knew how to fight Orks quite well.

I was going to say this as well. The codex was a guideline and not an instruction book. Apart from the commands to break the legions into chapters it was more of a "here's what I think works best through all of my long years of experience" kind of thing. The ultramarines turned it into a pseudo-bible once Guilliman was put into stasis.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/11 20:31:21


 
   
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w1zard wrote:
Engrenages wrote:

Codex was always meant to only be a guideline, never aboslute and wasn't supposed to replace adaptive thinking. And we can see in his Primarch book that good old Roboute knew how to fight Orks quite well.

I was going to say this as well. The codex was a guideline and not an instruction book. Apart from the commands to break the legions into chapters it was more of a "here's what I think works best through all of my long years of experience" kind of thing. The ultramarines turned it into a pseudo-bible once Guilliman was put into stasis.


Not true, he tried to make the codex absolute, to see every possibility and eventuality but failed, he said himself he failed when the wargames (when they were fighting mock salamanders) didn't work out, not surprising the Ultramarines took at as gospel, he didn't foresee that over time the Ultramarines would see it as to be followed explicitly and that the chapter would start being so reverent to their heirlumes.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/11 20:43:06


 
   
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Vulkan. I think of all the Legions they best demonstrated what Space Marines should be about.

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pm713 wrote:
Vulkan. I think of all the Legions they best demonstrated what Space Marines should be about.


The Emperor made everyone for separate purposes, Vulkan was made to be benevolent with a strong sense of justice, where as Russ was made to be relentless and unmerciful, the Emperor made them to be different.
   
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Rogal Dorn was pretty level headed. Well, most of the time. I can't think of any huge blunders before his spiral into self destruction, and that was after enormous emotional trauma.

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 Mr Nobody wrote:
Rogal Dorn was pretty level headed. Well, most of the time. I can't think of any huge blunders before his spiral into self destruction, and that was after enormous emotional trauma.


He was a total hothead, constantly going into fits of rages.
   
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You can safely rule out Angron, Morty, Russ, Kurze, Ferrus, Fulgrim, Lorgar, Perturabo, and Corax due to having no indication of exceptional wisdom. Magnus was supposedly a genius but demonstrated terrible judgement and decision-making, ruling him out easily. Alpharius was also shown to have exceptionally poor judgement during the Heresy. Dorn could be less than level-headed at times post-heresy, especially when it came to matters of pride. Chaos seriously messed with Horus, so it’s hard to say how wise he was post-heresy. Pre-heresy Lupercal was reputedly pretty good at diplomacy and strategy, making him a potential candidate. The Lion is another genius who made terrible decisions all around. Guilliman seems like the obvious candidate except that he almost brought the Imperium to civil war over his fancy book, which mars his otherwise stellar record. And I don’t know much about Vulkan, Sangyboi, and the Khan.

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 gnome_idea_what wrote:
You can safely rule out Angron, Morty, Russ, Kurze, Ferrus, Fulgrim, Lorgar, Perturabo, and Corax due to having no indication of exceptional wisdom. Magnus was supposedly a genius but demonstrated terrible judgement and decision-making, ruling him out easily. Alpharius was also shown to have exceptionally poor judgement during the Heresy. Dorn could be less than level-headed at times post-heresy, especially when it came to matters of pride. Chaos seriously messed with Horus, so it’s hard to say how wise he was post-heresy. Pre-heresy Lupercal was reputedly pretty good at diplomacy and strategy, making him a potential candidate. The Lion is another genius who made terrible decisions all around. Guilliman seems like the obvious candidate except that he almost brought the Imperium to civil war over his fancy book, which mars his otherwise stellar record. And I don’t know much about Vulkan, Sangyboi, and the Khan.


I wouldn't rule out Corax or Russ, obviously not the wisest but were pretty wise, Russ was the only one that didn't complain about not being made warmaster saying it 'was not his wyrd' so he was humble in a way and being humble is a sign of wisdom, Angron never got the chance to be anything with those butchers nails, wonder what he'd be like without them. Kruze was kinda wise as he accepted exactly what he was and didn't have any delusions of grandeur, but he was petty so either or on that case. Totally agree with Lorgar and Fulgrim.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/06/11 21:40:11


 
   
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pm713 wrote:
Vulkan. I think of all the Legions they best demonstrated what Space Marines should be about.

Vulkan was benevolent, just, and calm. However, I don't think he every really displayed outstanding wisdom in the sense of what we are talking about.
   
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 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Not true, he tried to make the codex absolute, to see every possibility and eventuality but failed, he said himself he failed when the wargames (when they were fighting mock salamanders) didn't work out, not surprising the Ultramarines took at as gospel, he didn't foresee that over time the Ultramarines would see it as to be followed explicitly and that the chapter would start being so reverent to their heirlumes.

He tried to make the codex absolute in the sense that the legions were split into chapters. To be honest I don't think he would have really cared if your companies had more devastators then what was recommended in the codex, or if you had a slightly different battle doctrine. The proof is that chapters like Dark Angels, and Salamanders are still considered "codex compliant" whilst deviating pretty far from the organizational structures outlined in the codex astartes.

The codex was supposed to be considered a baseline and a unifying underlying doctrine that all chapters could use as a base to develop their own battle doctrine. Most of the resistance to the codex came from people like Dorn who didn't want to split the legions. In no way did Guilliman intend the codex to become a hard and fast, algorithmic, battle manual. To insinuate that Guilliman should have foreseen that the codex would be worshiped as unbreakable, divine scripture upon his incapacitation is a little unfair considering that not even the emperor foresaw the Imperium devolving into a mess of religious dogma at any point in time. Isn't Guilliman even angry at the ultramarines for their reliance on the codex astartes in the new Dark Imperium novel?

 Mr Nobody wrote:
Rogal Dorn was pretty level headed. Well, most of the time. I can't think of any huge blunders before his spiral into self destruction, and that was after enormous emotional trauma.

Dorn worshiped the ground the emperor walked on and was as stubborn as a mule. He also had the bad manners of the Lion with none of the Lion's strategic brilliance to redeem it. Dorn also got half of his legion killed (and if Guilliman hadn't showed up they would have been totally wiped out) in the Iron Cage incident, because he was too stubborn to admit that he had been tricked and was beaten.

Dorn doesn't strike me as particularly wise.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/06/11 22:04:05


 
   
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Skaorn wrote:
The lost, they decided not to play


I wish they did some lore on the lost. Still cool if they keep it a secret but it would be so interesting to find out why they got destroyed.
   
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 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
w1zard wrote:
Engrenages wrote:

Codex was always meant to only be a guideline, never aboslute and wasn't supposed to replace adaptive thinking. And we can see in his Primarch book that good old Roboute knew how to fight Orks quite well.

I was going to say this as well. The codex was a guideline and not an instruction book. Apart from the commands to break the legions into chapters it was more of a "here's what I think works best through all of my long years of experience" kind of thing. The ultramarines turned it into a pseudo-bible once Guilliman was put into stasis.


Not true, he tried to make the codex absolute, to see every possibility and eventuality but failed, he said himself he failed when the wargames (when they were fighting mock salamanders) didn't work out, not surprising the Ultramarines took at as gospel, he didn't foresee that over time the Ultramarines would see it as to be followed explicitly and that the chapter would start being so reverent to their heirlumes.

"My teachings are yet flawed. No one, not even one such as I, can anticipate every possible outcome of battle. My words are not some holy writ that must be obeyed. There must always be room for personal initiative on the battlefield. You and I both know how one spark of heroism can turn the tide of battle. That knowledge and personal experience can only be earned in blood, and the leader in the field must always be the ultimate arbiter of what course of action should be followed."

I can't remember which book this is from, I'll look into it but it is pretty clear : the codex is not absolute
   
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Engrenages wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
w1zard wrote:
Engrenages wrote:

Codex was always meant to only be a guideline, never aboslute and wasn't supposed to replace adaptive thinking. And we can see in his Primarch book that good old Roboute knew how to fight Orks quite well.

I was going to say this as well. The codex was a guideline and not an instruction book. Apart from the commands to break the legions into chapters it was more of a "here's what I think works best through all of my long years of experience" kind of thing. The ultramarines turned it into a pseudo-bible once Guilliman was put into stasis.


Not true, he tried to make the codex absolute, to see every possibility and eventuality but failed, he said himself he failed when the wargames (when they were fighting mock salamanders) didn't work out, not surprising the Ultramarines took at as gospel, he didn't foresee that over time the Ultramarines would see it as to be followed explicitly and that the chapter would start being so reverent to their heirlumes.

"My teachings are yet flawed. No one, not even one such as I, can anticipate every possible outcome of battle. My words are not some holy writ that must be obeyed. There must always be room for personal initiative on the battlefield. You and I both know how one spark of heroism can turn the tide of battle. That knowledge and personal experience can only be earned in blood, and the leader in the field must always be the ultimate arbiter of what course of action should be followed."

I can't remember which book this is from, I'll look into it but it is pretty clear : the codex is not absolute


Yeah said after he realised he failed. Its from the same short story where he says he failed. Age of darkness was the book. Easy to find the quote as its at the end of the short story.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/06/11 22:08:08


 
   
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 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Vulkan. I think of all the Legions they best demonstrated what Space Marines should be about.


The Emperor made everyone for separate purposes, Vulkan was made to be benevolent with a strong sense of justice, where as Russ was made to be relentless and unmerciful, the Emperor made them to be different.


I agree with you, but is there anything that states Big E made them all to be different?

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 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
We always debate about the strongest but which Primarch do you think was the wisest?

I think it was Sangiunuis (Not a blood angel player)

Horus was probably the wisest traitor Primarch but out of all of them I still think Sannyshoes was the wisest.

The least was Magnus I would say.


With this question, is allegiance really matter?

The wisest was Angron. He knew where things were going. Every other Primarch overlooked something important along the way.

   
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slade the sniper wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Vulkan. I think of all the Legions they best demonstrated what Space Marines should be about.


The Emperor made everyone for separate purposes, Vulkan was made to be benevolent with a strong sense of justice, where as Russ was made to be relentless and unmerciful, the Emperor made them to be different.


I agree with you, but is there anything that states Big E made them all to be different?

-STS


Yeah, its all over the lore, Deliverence lost, when Corax, Sixx and Nexin were talking about using clones for the new marines with the Primarch project Corax vetod that as he said the Emperor didn't do that because the Astartes were strong because of their variety and differences, also unlike the Custodes. The Primarchs were all made different that's throughout the lore.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 techsoldaten wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
We always debate about the strongest but which Primarch do you think was the wisest?

I think it was Sangiunuis (Not a blood angel player)

Horus was probably the wisest traitor Primarch but out of all of them I still think Sannyshoes was the wisest.

The least was Magnus I would say.


With this question, is allegiance really matter?

The wisest was Angron. He knew where things were going. Every other Primarch overlooked something important along the way.


No it doesn't matter but I just wanted to give an example of the wisest traitor. Angron was unable to be wise, he needed to fight and be aggressive to quell the pain in his head, it's impossible for him to act wise, he might of been wise without the butchers nails, by the time of his apotheosis he was a shell, all he cared about was cutting things to pieces.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/11 23:09:26


 
   
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Delvarus Centurion wrote:I think the codex was very unwise, to think you could codify war, especially when your most numerous of enemies have no real tactics other than strapping rockets to their backs and flying into the enemies with shootas and choppas lol
Well, considering that Guilliman was actually exceptionally good against Orks (Ultramar is near Charadon, and in his Primarch book, is strongly able to deal with Orks.

Even if your enemy's tactic is strapping rokkit packs on and using crude weapons, that's their tactic, and you can exploit that.

What Guilliman warned against was becoming so inflexible that there was no room for change if the previously used tactics became impractical - and I think you may be incorrect on that quote where he warns about inflexibility. I think it may have come from Know No Fear, when he is talking to Remus Ventanus.

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 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
slade the sniper wrote:


The wisest was Angron. He knew where things were going. Every other Primarch overlooked something important along the way.


No it doesn't matter but I just wanted to give an example of the wisest traitor. Angron was unable to be wise, he needed to fight and be aggressive to quell the pain in his head, it's impossible for him to act wise, he might of been wise without the butchers nails, by the time of his apotheosis he was a shell, all he cared about was cutting things to pieces.


I think that's partially true of Angron. I think it's in Betrayer where he and Lorgar are having a discussion about something to do with the Shadow Crusade and he says to Lorgar that just because he does things the way he does doesn't mean that he can't do things other ways and that he isn't an idiot. I think slade the sniper has a point, out of all the Primarchs Angron and Curze knew what they were and accepted it where most of the others were always trying to prove something. I think that's a degree of wisdom right there.

From a philosophical point of view I would say that Sanguinius was probably the wisest, knowing his eventual fate at the hand of his brother, seem to made him more thoughtful and insightful to things. Guilliman and the Lion nominating him to be the Emperor of Imperium Secundus I think is a big thumbs up to that.

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I suppose the first thing we have to do in this case is define what IS wisdom. We all agree that there is a differance between knowledge and wisdom, with Magnus being the postr boy for "intelligent but unwise"

Wisdom is defined in the Oxford english dictionary as "Capacity of judging rightly in matters relating to life and conduct; soundness of judgement in the choice of means and ends; sometimes, less strictly, sound sense, esp. in practical affairs: opp. to folly;"

So using this definition in the discussion of wisdom, it's "whom can take the information they have and plot the correct choices?"

I'd argue this eliminates most if not all of the traitor primarchs, as they all made some bad choices.


Looking at the loyalists, we lack sufficant information about some and haven't seen many faced with hard choices. Others we've seen eneugh to see the flaws in their personality HOWEVER, most of the loyalsits we have seen tested, Ruinstorm was a case of some of the most obvious testing, with Gulliman, Sanguinis and the Lion all tested in their own way. I'm gonna agree Sanguinis was proably the wisest of the Primarchs, the most introspective etc. Gulliman also struck me as, mostly wise. of the loyalists Dorn strikes me as the least wise, due to his inflexable personality, Wolfsbane really demonstrated this, there's no introspection with Dorn, just a iron clad sureness, this is a huge blind spot that can lead to trouble (see the Fists Exemplar as an example)

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 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Delvarus Centurion wrote:I think the codex was very unwise, to think you could codify war, especially when your most numerous of enemies have no real tactics other than strapping rockets to their backs and flying into the enemies with shootas and choppas lol
Well, considering that Guilliman was actually exceptionally good against Orks (Ultramar is near Charadon, and in his Primarch book, is strongly able to deal with Orks.

Even if your enemy's tactic is strapping rokkit packs on and using crude weapons, that's their tactic, and you can exploit that.

What Guilliman warned against was becoming so inflexible that there was no room for change if the previously used tactics became impractical - and I think you may be incorrect on that quote where he warns about inflexibility. I think it may have come from Know No Fear, when he is talking to Remus Ventanus.


Its in rules of engagement in age of darkness, he was speaking to Remus Vantanus.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/12 11:49:11


 
   
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The way some of the fluff is written, the wisest Primarch is always that of the [1d20] legion. Rerolled each scene.

Yes, 10% of the time they're all so freaking stupid that someone we've never read anything about is the wisest.
   
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Bharring wrote:
The way some of the fluff is written, the wisest Primarch is always that of the [1d20] legion. Rerolled each scene.

Yes, 10% of the time they're all so freaking stupid that someone we've never read anything about is the wisest.


Lol, yeah the Emperor of Mankind novel even showed the Emperor talking to Ra about how stupid they were, he values his ten thousand far more than the Primarchs. Because they like him don't care about glory, The Emperor said, that's all the Primarchs cared about, which is why he did the whole ridiculous Ullanor celebration. He even referred to the Primarchs as ' the creatures that call him father' so brutal lol

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2018/06/12 15:27:34


 
   
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From the books I have read so far, I would have to say the Khan is a contender. He didn't rush to judgement about what happened on Prospero. He rushed to find out for himself. He makes up his own mind and then acts carefully.

I havent yet seen where the Khan has made a bad decision on the same level as many others.

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 SickSix wrote:
From the books I have read so far, I would have to say the Khan is a contender. He didn't rush to judgement about what happened on Prospero. He rushed to find out for himself. He makes up his own mind and then acts carefully.

I havent yet seen where the Khan has made a bad decision on the same level as many others.


Yeah he didn't really do any monumental feth ups.
   
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The Primarch of the 2nd.

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