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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/06/26 03:17:06
Subject: The wisest Primarch?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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There is a difference between not wanting to die (reasonable) and selling your soul to the literal devil (unwise).
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/06/26 03:29:09
Subject: The wisest Primarch?
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Frenzied Berserker Terminator
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nareik wrote:There is a difference between not wanting to die (reasonable) and selling your soul to the literal devil (unwise).
Yeah but nowhere did he fear failing and then crumpled like a house of cards. That doesn't even come into it. Like I said I'm done.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/06/26 06:52:01
Subject: The wisest Primarch?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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I guess it basically boils down to if you really think the emperor did enough to warn his sons about the dangers of chaos. I personally don't think "don't touch it" was a good enough warning because it is vague, which is the worst kind of warning. Obviously you think it was good enough and I can respect that difference of opinion.
But what is absolutely fact was that the emperor hid pretty much all knowledge about chaos and the chaos gods, even going so far as to straight up lie to the primarchs that daemons were just another xenos species that inhabited a different dimension. It is my opinion that because he concealed this knowledge it more easily allowed the primarchs to be tricked by chaos and manipulated into rebellion against the emperor. Who knows, maybe everything would have happened exactly as it did even if the primarchs knew about chaos and how insidious it was, but somehow I don't think so.
The emperor took a risk in keeping that knowledge secret. It costed him.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/06/26 08:01:56
Subject: The wisest Primarch?
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Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion
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Delvarus Centurion wrote:BrianDavion wrote: Delvarus Centurion wrote:nareik wrote:Primarch isn't a trump card that prevents Horus from being unwise.
If anything it reinforces how weak and foolish he had become.
It is a trump card against being weak and a fool. In what way is a weak or a fool? He got to terra he was losing, so he decided to cut the head off the snake, he lost, so what, he prosecuted the war perfectly, up until Terra the Imperium had lost every significant battle, they were constantly pushed back, every attempt to bar the heretics from Terra failed. Where exactly is this weak or foolish behaviour, do you have any opinion or facts that isn't a quote from Abaddon? He was considered the greatest Primarch at the time, made warmaster had the most successful military campaign history, his legion was leagues ahead of any other only the Ultramarines could boast as much, but not equally.
His entire REBELLION was a sign of weakness. He rebelled because basicly of a fragile ego. It's worth noting once you eliminate Horus from the equation everyone of the rebel primarchs where the most deeply flawed ones Horus was blinded by his Hubris.
Wrong, he turned to chaos to save his life and also because of the visions Chaos showed him, it had nothing to do with his ego. Nowhere in the lore does it even suggest that he did it because of his 'fragile ego' you just made that up.
now it's been awhile since I read the books where he falls, but I seem to quite distinctly recall Horus didn't embrace chaos to save his life, he embraced it because chaos showed him a nasty future where the emperor is worshipped as a god, and worse yet.. Horus DIDN'T HAVE A STATUE. Horus was horrified that he'd be forgotten. and this is born out as the inital HH trilogy says each of the Primarchs represents a part of the emperor, and Horus is his AMBITION. so of course the guy had a fragile ego. His whole strive to be remembered, the Luna Wolves constant desires to be "the best" thats EGO.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/06/26 08:44:37
Subject: The wisest Primarch?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Delvarus Centurion wrote:nareik wrote:There is a difference between not wanting to die (reasonable) and selling your soul to the literal devil (unwise).
Yeah but nowhere did he fear failing and then crumpled like a house of cards. That doesn't even come into it. Like I said I'm done.
Clearly we have an unresolvable difference of opinion on the implications of the source matter here.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/26 08:44:55
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/06/26 08:51:12
Subject: The wisest Primarch?
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Yellin' Yoof
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BrianDavion wrote: Delvarus Centurion wrote:BrianDavion wrote: Delvarus Centurion wrote:nareik wrote:Primarch isn't a trump card that prevents Horus from being unwise.
If anything it reinforces how weak and foolish he had become.
It is a trump card against being weak and a fool. In what way is a weak or a fool? He got to terra he was losing, so he decided to cut the head off the snake, he lost, so what, he prosecuted the war perfectly, up until Terra the Imperium had lost every significant battle, they were constantly pushed back, every attempt to bar the heretics from Terra failed. Where exactly is this weak or foolish behaviour, do you have any opinion or facts that isn't a quote from Abaddon? He was considered the greatest Primarch at the time, made warmaster had the most successful military campaign history, his legion was leagues ahead of any other only the Ultramarines could boast as much, but not equally.
His entire REBELLION was a sign of weakness. He rebelled because basicly of a fragile ego. It's worth noting once you eliminate Horus from the equation everyone of the rebel primarchs where the most deeply flawed ones Horus was blinded by his Hubris.
Wrong, he turned to chaos to save his life and also because of the visions Chaos showed him, it had nothing to do with his ego. Nowhere in the lore does it even suggest that he did it because of his 'fragile ego' you just made that up.
now it's been awhile since I read the books where he falls, but I seem to quite distinctly recall Horus didn't embrace chaos to save his life, he embraced it because chaos showed him a nasty future where the emperor is worshipped as a god, and worse yet.. Horus DIDN'T HAVE A STATUE. Horus was horrified that he'd be forgotten. and this is born out as the inital HH trilogy says each of the Primarchs represents a part of the emperor, and Horus is his AMBITION. so of course the guy had a fragile ego. His whole strive to be remembered, the Luna Wolves constant desires to be "the best" thats EGO.
Horus did have a big ego but in their own ways they all did because you can't be a symbolic hero without a degree of pride. As I stated before when Horus experienced his vision of the 41st millennium the chaos gods appeared before him as benevolent beings and we're seemingly showing him proof that the emperor had been lying to Horus and every other human in the Imperium from the start. On top of that if he refused to let the dark gods in he would have died and then been powerless to stop his life's work from being not only undone but used to enforce the opposite of what he believed in. I think any rational person would have done the same if put in such a circumstance.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/06/26 14:51:01
Subject: The wisest Primarch?
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Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion
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BigbyWolf wrote:BrianDavion wrote: Delvarus Centurion wrote:BrianDavion wrote: Delvarus Centurion wrote:nareik wrote:Primarch isn't a trump card that prevents Horus from being unwise.
If anything it reinforces how weak and foolish he had become.
It is a trump card against being weak and a fool. In what way is a weak or a fool? He got to terra he was losing, so he decided to cut the head off the snake, he lost, so what, he prosecuted the war perfectly, up until Terra the Imperium had lost every significant battle, they were constantly pushed back, every attempt to bar the heretics from Terra failed. Where exactly is this weak or foolish behaviour, do you have any opinion or facts that isn't a quote from Abaddon? He was considered the greatest Primarch at the time, made warmaster had the most successful military campaign history, his legion was leagues ahead of any other only the Ultramarines could boast as much, but not equally.
His entire REBELLION was a sign of weakness. He rebelled because basicly of a fragile ego. It's worth noting once you eliminate Horus from the equation everyone of the rebel primarchs where the most deeply flawed ones Horus was blinded by his Hubris.
Wrong, he turned to chaos to save his life and also because of the visions Chaos showed him, it had nothing to do with his ego. Nowhere in the lore does it even suggest that he did it because of his 'fragile ego' you just made that up.
now it's been awhile since I read the books where he falls, but I seem to quite distinctly recall Horus didn't embrace chaos to save his life, he embraced it because chaos showed him a nasty future where the emperor is worshipped as a god, and worse yet.. Horus DIDN'T HAVE A STATUE. Horus was horrified that he'd be forgotten. and this is born out as the inital HH trilogy says each of the Primarchs represents a part of the emperor, and Horus is his AMBITION. so of course the guy had a fragile ego. His whole strive to be remembered, the Luna Wolves constant desires to be "the best" thats EGO.
Horus did have a big ego but in their own ways they all did because you can't be a symbolic hero without a degree of pride. As I stated before when Horus experienced his vision of the 41st millennium the chaos gods appeared before him as benevolent beings and we're seemingly showing him proof that the emperor had been lying to Horus and every other human in the Imperium from the start. On top of that if he refused to let the dark gods in he would have died and then been powerless to stop his life's work from being not only undone but used to enforce the opposite of what he believed in. I think any rational person would have done the same if put in such a circumstance.
except that Magnus was actively trying to warn him about it, and that it was revealed that the "guide" was indeed lying and manipulating, at the end of the whole thing Horus basicly said "yeah I know he's lying and I don't care" also NO WHERE in the whole experiance was there ANY sign Horus was being presented with "join us or die"
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/06/27 09:35:21
Subject: The wisest Primarch?
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Yellin' Yoof
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BrianDavion wrote: BigbyWolf wrote:BrianDavion wrote: Delvarus Centurion wrote:BrianDavion wrote: Delvarus Centurion wrote:nareik wrote:Primarch isn't a trump card that prevents Horus from being unwise.
If anything it reinforces how weak and foolish he had become.
It is a trump card against being weak and a fool. In what way is a weak or a fool? He got to terra he was losing, so he decided to cut the head off the snake, he lost, so what, he prosecuted the war perfectly, up until Terra the Imperium had lost every significant battle, they were constantly pushed back, every attempt to bar the heretics from Terra failed. Where exactly is this weak or foolish behaviour, do you have any opinion or facts that isn't a quote from Abaddon? He was considered the greatest Primarch at the time, made warmaster had the most successful military campaign history, his legion was leagues ahead of any other only the Ultramarines could boast as much, but not equally.
His entire REBELLION was a sign of weakness. He rebelled because basicly of a fragile ego. It's worth noting once you eliminate Horus from the equation everyone of the rebel primarchs where the most deeply flawed ones Horus was blinded by his Hubris.
Wrong, he turned to chaos to save his life and also because of the visions Chaos showed him, it had nothing to do with his ego. Nowhere in the lore does it even suggest that he did it because of his 'fragile ego' you just made that up.
now it's been awhile since I read the books where he falls, but I seem to quite distinctly recall Horus didn't embrace chaos to save his life, he embraced it because chaos showed him a nasty future where the emperor is worshipped as a god, and worse yet.. Horus DIDN'T HAVE A STATUE. Horus was horrified that he'd be forgotten. and this is born out as the inital HH trilogy says each of the Primarchs represents a part of the emperor, and Horus is his AMBITION. so of course the guy had a fragile ego. His whole strive to be remembered, the Luna Wolves constant desires to be "the best" thats EGO.
Horus did have a big ego but in their own ways they all did because you can't be a symbolic hero without a degree of pride. As I stated before when Horus experienced his vision of the 41st millennium the chaos gods appeared before him as benevolent beings and we're seemingly showing him proof that the emperor had been lying to Horus and every other human in the Imperium from the start. On top of that if he refused to let the dark gods in he would have died and then been powerless to stop his life's work from being not only undone but used to enforce the opposite of what he believed in. I think any rational person would have done the same if put in such a circumstance.
except that Magnus was actively trying to warn him about it, and that it was revealed that the "guide" was indeed lying and manipulating, at the end of the whole thing Horus basicly said "yeah I know he's lying and I don't care" also NO WHERE in the whole experiance was there ANY sign Horus was being presented with "join us or die"
That's when they come before him though. He gets stabbed by a demon blade of nurgle and is about to die. But Erebus just happens to know a cult of nice people that can save him nearby. The Luna Wolves panic and agree to let them try and save him. He was as screwed as gulliman was when fulgrim stabbed him.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/06/27 17:03:27
Subject: The wisest Primarch?
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Frenzied Berserker Terminator
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BrianDavion wrote: Delvarus Centurion wrote:BrianDavion wrote: Delvarus Centurion wrote:nareik wrote:Primarch isn't a trump card that prevents Horus from being unwise.
If anything it reinforces how weak and foolish he had become.
It is a trump card against being weak and a fool. In what way is a weak or a fool? He got to terra he was losing, so he decided to cut the head off the snake, he lost, so what, he prosecuted the war perfectly, up until Terra the Imperium had lost every significant battle, they were constantly pushed back, every attempt to bar the heretics from Terra failed. Where exactly is this weak or foolish behaviour, do you have any opinion or facts that isn't a quote from Abaddon? He was considered the greatest Primarch at the time, made warmaster had the most successful military campaign history, his legion was leagues ahead of any other only the Ultramarines could boast as much, but not equally.
His entire REBELLION was a sign of weakness. He rebelled because basicly of a fragile ego. It's worth noting once you eliminate Horus from the equation everyone of the rebel primarchs where the most deeply flawed ones Horus was blinded by his Hubris.
Wrong, he turned to chaos to save his life and also because of the visions Chaos showed him, it had nothing to do with his ego. Nowhere in the lore does it even suggest that he did it because of his 'fragile ego' you just made that up.
now it's been awhile since I read the books where he falls, but I seem to quite distinctly recall Horus didn't embrace chaos to save his life, he embraced it because chaos showed him a nasty future where the emperor is worshipped as a god, and worse yet.. Horus DIDN'T HAVE A STATUE. Horus was horrified that he'd be forgotten. and this is born out as the inital HH trilogy says each of the Primarchs represents a part of the emperor, and Horus is his AMBITION. so of course the guy had a fragile ego. His whole strive to be remembered, the Luna Wolves constant desires to be "the best" thats EGO.
I said it was to save his life and because of the visions.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
w1zard wrote:
I guess it basically boils down to if you really think the emperor did enough to warn his sons about the dangers of chaos. I personally don't think "don't touch it" was a good enough warning because it is vague, which is the worst kind of warning. Obviously you think it was good enough and I can respect that difference of opinion.
But what is absolutely fact was that the emperor hid pretty much all knowledge about chaos and the chaos gods, even going so far as to straight up lie to the primarchs that daemons were just another xenos species that inhabited a different dimension. It is my opinion that because he concealed this knowledge it more easily allowed the primarchs to be tricked by chaos and manipulated into rebellion against the emperor. Who knows, maybe everything would have happened exactly as it did even if the primarchs knew about chaos and how insidious it was, but somehow I don't think so.
The emperor took a risk in keeping that knowledge secret. It costed him.
Saying all he did was say "don't touch it" is nonsense, he did far more than that. Read the Horus quote, he new of the nature of chaos, the Emperor told the, how dangerous it was at Nikaea etc. To say he didn't is just ignoring the lore completely.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote: BigbyWolf wrote:BrianDavion wrote: Delvarus Centurion wrote:BrianDavion wrote: Delvarus Centurion wrote:nareik wrote:Primarch isn't a trump card that prevents Horus from being unwise.
If anything it reinforces how weak and foolish he had become.
It is a trump card against being weak and a fool. In what way is a weak or a fool? He got to terra he was losing, so he decided to cut the head off the snake, he lost, so what, he prosecuted the war perfectly, up until Terra the Imperium had lost every significant battle, they were constantly pushed back, every attempt to bar the heretics from Terra failed. Where exactly is this weak or foolish behaviour, do you have any opinion or facts that isn't a quote from Abaddon? He was considered the greatest Primarch at the time, made warmaster had the most successful military campaign history, his legion was leagues ahead of any other only the Ultramarines could boast as much, but not equally.
His entire REBELLION was a sign of weakness. He rebelled because basicly of a fragile ego. It's worth noting once you eliminate Horus from the equation everyone of the rebel primarchs where the most deeply flawed ones Horus was blinded by his Hubris.
Wrong, he turned to chaos to save his life and also because of the visions Chaos showed him, it had nothing to do with his ego. Nowhere in the lore does it even suggest that he did it because of his 'fragile ego' you just made that up.
now it's been awhile since I read the books where he falls, but I seem to quite distinctly recall Horus didn't embrace chaos to save his life, he embraced it because chaos showed him a nasty future where the emperor is worshipped as a god, and worse yet.. Horus DIDN'T HAVE A STATUE. Horus was horrified that he'd be forgotten. and this is born out as the inital HH trilogy says each of the Primarchs represents a part of the emperor, and Horus is his AMBITION. so of course the guy had a fragile ego. His whole strive to be remembered, the Luna Wolves constant desires to be "the best" thats EGO.
Horus did have a big ego but in their own ways they all did because you can't be a symbolic hero without a degree of pride. As I stated before when Horus experienced his vision of the 41st millennium the chaos gods appeared before him as benevolent beings and we're seemingly showing him proof that the emperor had been lying to Horus and every other human in the Imperium from the start. On top of that if he refused to let the dark gods in he would have died and then been powerless to stop his life's work from being not only undone but used to enforce the opposite of what he believed in. I think any rational person would have done the same if put in such a circumstance.
except that Magnus was actively trying to warn him about it, and that it was revealed that the "guide" was indeed lying and manipulating, at the end of the whole thing Horus basicly said "yeah I know he's lying and I don't care" also NO WHERE in the whole experiance was there ANY sign Horus was being presented with "join us or die"
Horus absolutely knew he was going to die. Magnus/Erebus told him that and he knew it himself. "Very well,' said Sejanus, 'but quickly, for your body lies on the brink of death within the walls of the Delphos on Davin."
"Your mind and body are dying and this world is beginning to collapse into Chaos. That's why they sent me back, to guide you to the truth that will allow you to return to your body."
"'And what if I don't want to be their emissary?' 'Then you will die,' said Sejanus. 'Only they are powerful enough to save your life now.'"
"In return for your aid,they can give you a measure of their power and the means to realise your every ambition."
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This message was edited 10 times. Last update was at 2018/06/27 17:25:25
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/06/27 19:17:45
Subject: The wisest Primarch?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Saying all he did was say "don't touch it" is nonsense, he did far more than that. Read the Horus quote, he new of the nature of chaos, the Emperor told the, how dangerous it was at Nikaea etc. To say he didn't is just ignoring the lore completely.
I mean, vague warnings about how sorcery shouldn't be messed with and how it can "damn you" without really going into specifics and still keeping the existance of daemons and the chaos gods secret pretty much amounts to "don't touch it" in my book, but whatever man.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/06/27 19:26:53
Subject: The wisest Primarch?
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Frenzied Berserker Terminator
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w1zard wrote: Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Saying all he did was say "don't touch it" is nonsense, he did far more than that. Read the Horus quote, he new of the nature of chaos, the Emperor told the, how dangerous it was at Nikaea etc. To say he didn't is just ignoring the lore completely.
I mean, vague warnings about how sorcery shouldn't be messed with and how it can "damn you" without really going into specifics and still keeping the existance of daemons and the chaos gods secret pretty much amounts to "don't touch it" in my book, but whatever man.
The Emperor told Magnus that if he bargained with the forces of the warp he wouldn't be left whole early on in the great crusade. He explicit told how dangerous it was, Magnus even admited how dangerous it was talking to Ahriman about breaking into the webway but still did it, but you keep saying he didn't tell them, like Magnus was a child, Magnus knew fine well what he was doing and he still did it.
"“The consequences will be mine alone to bear,” interrupted Magnus. “Now do as I ask.” “My lord, I will always obey, but the spell to break into the alattice-way calls for bargains to be struck with the most terrible creatures of the Great Ocean, beings whose names translate as... daemons.”“There is little beyond your knowledge, Ahriman"
“There is a price to pay for the time I gave your sons. You knew this when you accepted the gift of my power. Now it is time tomake good on your bargain.”“I made no bargain,” said Magnus, “not with the likes of you.”“Oh, but you did,” laughed the eyes. “When, in your despair, you cried out for succour in the depths of the warp, when you begged for the means to save your sons – you flew too close to the sun, Magnus. You offered up your soul to save theirs, and that debt is now due."
"Magnus tried to look away, but the horror of the vision was impossible to ignore.“Why should I believe anything you say?” he cried.“You already know the truth of your doom; I have no need to embellish."
"He remembered, decades later, returning to the world of his birth to travel its forgotten highways and explore its lost mysteries with his father. The Emperor had taught him more of the secret powers of the universe, imparting his wisdom while little realising that the student was on the verge of outstripping the teacher. They had walked the searing red deserts of Meganesia, travelling the invisible pathways once known as songlines by the first people to walk that land.Other cultures knew them as ley lines or lung-mei, believing them to be the blood of the gods, the magnetic flow of mystical energy that circulated in the planet’s veins. His father told him how the ancient shamans of Old Earth could tap into these currents and wield power beyond that of other mortals. Many had sought to become gods, raising empires and enslaving all men before them. The Emperor spoke of how these men had brought ruin upon themselves and their people by trafficking with powers beyond their comprehension. Seeing Magnus’ interest, his father warned him against flying too long and too high in the aether for selfish gain."
"Magnus listened attentively, but in his secret heart he had dreamed of controlling the powers these mortals could not. He was a being of light so far removed from humanity that he barely considered himself related to his primordial ancestors. He was far above them, yes, but he did not allow himself to forget the legacy of evolution and sacrifice that had elevated him. It was his duty and his honour to speed the ascension of those who would come after him, to show them the light as his father had shown him"
- spoken when Magnus flew through the warp with the Emperor, before the Emperor ever came to prospero.
"Only when the Emperor had brought the survivors of his Legion to Prospero had Magnus known he would have to disregard the warnings and delve further into the mysteries. His gene-sons were dying, their bodies mutating and turning against them as uncontrolled tides wrought ever more hideous changes in their flesh. Nor were such horrific transformations limited to their bodies. Their minds were like pulsing flares in the Great Ocean, drawing predators, hunters and malign creatures that sought to cross into the material universe.Unchecked, his Legion would be dead within a generation.The power to save them was there, just waiting to be used, and he had given long thought and contemplation to breaking his father’s first command. He had not done so heedlessly, but only after much introspection and an honest appraisal of his abilities. Magnus knew he was a superlative manipulator of the aether, but was he strong enough? He knew the answer to that now, for he had saved his warriors. He had seized control of their destinies from the talons of a malevolent shadow in the Great Ocean that held their fates in its grasp. The Emperor knew of such creatures, and had bargained with them in ages past, but he had never dared face one. Mag-nus’ victory was not won without cost, and he reached up to touch the smooth skin where his right eye had once been, feeling the pain and vindication of that sacrifice once more"
He was told on Aghoru the nature of Chaos and the bargain he made and still he continued to use socery and allow his legion to use the daemon Tutelaries, well before Nikaea and then he he still broke into the webway. If this is what Magnus does when he finds everything out about Chaos, its no wonder the Emperor didn't explicitly say you will lose your soul, even though he did say you can treat with choas and stay whole. Arguing that Magnus wouldn't have done this if the Emperor explained more is silly.
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This message was edited 8 times. Last update was at 2018/06/27 19:52:06
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/06/28 01:35:49
Subject: The wisest Primarch?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Delvarus Centurion wrote:
The Emperor told Magnus that if he bargained with the forces of the warp he wouldn't be left whole early on in the great crusade. He explicit told how dangerous it was...
No, he didn't. He told Magnus specifically that dealing with warp entities could "damn him" if he wasn't careful and that was at the council of nikaea right before the beginning of the Horus Heresy.
Delvarus Centurion wrote:
"“The consequences will be mine alone to bear,” interrupted Magnus. “Now do as I ask.” “My lord, I will always obey, but the spell to break into the alattice-way calls for bargains to be struck with the most terrible creatures of the Great Ocean, beings whose names translate as... daemons.”“There is little beyond your knowledge, Ahriman"
This quote is taken out of context. Magnus is referring to the punishment he knew would receive from the emperor for breaking the decree at Nikea... Magnus broke the decree purposely because he thought it was more important to warn the emperor of Horus' betrayal. Magnus did not know that he was selling his soul, only that it was dangerous to deal with warp creatures. Magnus did not know that breaking the psychic seal in the webway to Terra would ruin the emperor's webway project, and this quote proves it:
Delvarus Centurion wrote:
“There is a price to pay for the time I gave your sons. You knew this when you accepted the gift of my power. Now it is time tomake good on your bargain.”“I made no bargain,” said Magnus, “not with the likes of you.”“Oh, but you did,” laughed the eyes. “When, in your despair, you cried out for succour in the depths of the warp, when you begged for the means to save your sons – you flew too close to the sun, Magnus. You offered up your soul to save theirs, and that debt is now due."
"Magnus tried to look away, but the horror of the vision was impossible to ignore.“Why should I believe anything you say?” he cried.“You already know the truth of your doom; I have no need to embellish."
Delvarus Centurion wrote:
"He remembered, decades later, returning to the world of his birth to travel its forgotten highways and explore its lost mysteries with his father. The Emperor had taught him more of the secret powers of the universe, imparting his wisdom while little realising that the student was on the verge of outstripping the teacher. They had walked the searing red deserts of Meganesia, travelling the invisible pathways once known as songlines by the first people to walk that land.Other cultures knew them as ley lines or lung-mei, believing them to be the blood of the gods, the magnetic flow of mystical energy that circulated in the planet’s veins. His father told him how the ancient shamans of Old Earth could tap into these currents and wield power beyond that of other mortals. Many had sought to become gods, raising empires and enslaving all men before them. The Emperor spoke of how these men had brought ruin upon themselves and their people by trafficking with powers beyond their comprehension. Seeing Magnus’ interest, his father warned him against flying too long and too high in the aether for selfish gain."
"Magnus listened attentively, but in his secret heart he had dreamed of controlling the powers these mortals could not. He was a being of light so far removed from humanity that he barely considered himself related to his primordial ancestors. He was far above them, yes, but he did not allow himself to forget the legacy of evolution and sacrifice that had elevated him. It was his duty and his honour to speed the ascension of those who would come after him, to show them the light as his father had shown him"
That just goes to show that the emperor warned Magnus that it was dangerous if he wasn't careful. Magnus thought he was being careful. He wasn't. The emperor didn't tell him that there was no possible way he could deal with the entities of the warp and come out unscathed. To Magnus, the emperors warnings were for lesser men, because he knew the emperor was experimenting with sorcery himself.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/06/28 01:42:19
Subject: The wisest Primarch?
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Frenzied Berserker Terminator
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w1zard wrote: Delvarus Centurion wrote:
The Emperor told Magnus that if he bargained with the forces of the warp he wouldn't be left whole early on in the great crusade. He explicit told how dangerous it was...
No, he didn't. He told Magnus specifically that dealing with warp entities could "damn him" if he wasn't careful and that was at the council of nikaea right before the beginning of the Horus Heresy.
Delvarus Centurion wrote:
"“The consequences will be mine alone to bear,” interrupted Magnus. “Now do as I ask.” “My lord, I will always obey, but the spell to break into the alattice-way calls for bargains to be struck with the most terrible creatures of the Great Ocean, beings whose names translate as... daemons.”“There is little beyond your knowledge, Ahriman"
This quote is taken out of context. Magnus is referring to the punishment he knew would receive from the emperor for breaking the decree at Nikea... Magnus broke the decree purposely because he thought it was more important to warn the emperor of Horus' betrayal. Magnus did not know that he was selling his soul, only that it was dangerous to deal with warp creatures. Magnus did not know that breaking the psychic seal in the webway to Terra would ruin the emperor's webway project, and this quote proves it:
Delvarus Centurion wrote:
“There is a price to pay for the time I gave your sons. You knew this when you accepted the gift of my power. Now it is time tomake good on your bargain.”“I made no bargain,” said Magnus, “not with the likes of you.”“Oh, but you did,” laughed the eyes. “When, in your despair, you cried out for succour in the depths of the warp, when you begged for the means to save your sons – you flew too close to the sun, Magnus. You offered up your soul to save theirs, and that debt is now due."
"Magnus tried to look away, but the horror of the vision was impossible to ignore.“Why should I believe anything you say?” he cried.“You already know the truth of your doom; I have no need to embellish."
Delvarus Centurion wrote:
"He remembered, decades later, returning to the world of his birth to travel its forgotten highways and explore its lost mysteries with his father. The Emperor had taught him more of the secret powers of the universe, imparting his wisdom while little realising that the student was on the verge of outstripping the teacher. They had walked the searing red deserts of Meganesia, travelling the invisible pathways once known as songlines by the first people to walk that land.Other cultures knew them as ley lines or lung-mei, believing them to be the blood of the gods, the magnetic flow of mystical energy that circulated in the planet’s veins. His father told him how the ancient shamans of Old Earth could tap into these currents and wield power beyond that of other mortals. Many had sought to become gods, raising empires and enslaving all men before them. The Emperor spoke of how these men had brought ruin upon themselves and their people by trafficking with powers beyond their comprehension. Seeing Magnus’ interest, his father warned him against flying too long and too high in the aether for selfish gain."
"Magnus listened attentively, but in his secret heart he had dreamed of controlling the powers these mortals could not. He was a being of light so far removed from humanity that he barely considered himself related to his primordial ancestors. He was far above them, yes, but he did not allow himself to forget the legacy of evolution and sacrifice that had elevated him. It was his duty and his honour to speed the ascension of those who would come after him, to show them the light as his father had shown him"
That just goes to show that the emperor warned Magnus that it was dangerous if he wasn't careful. Magnus thought he was being careful. He wasn't. The emperor didn't tell him that there was no possible way he could deal with the entities of the warp and come out unscathed. To Magnus, the emperors warnings were for lesser men, because he knew the emperor was experimenting with sorcery himself.
Wrong that was the Nikaea quote you are talking about, he said that he can't bargain before Nikaea
Not taken out of context, I used that in saying he still used sorcery and daemon Tutelaries after Nikaea and still broke into the lattice. He did know he sold his soul " "“There is a price to pay for the time I gave your sons. You knew this when you accepted the gift of my power. Now it is time tomake good on your bargain.”“I made no bargain,” said Magnus, “not with the likes of you.”“Oh, but you did,” laughed the eyes. “When, in your despair, you cried out for succour in the depths of the warp, when you begged for the means to save your sons – you flew too close to the sun, Magnus. You offered up your soul to save theirs, and that debt is now due." - said to him by the daemon on aghoru
The Emperor did tell Magnus he couldn't bargain with the forces of the warp and come out unscathed. The warnings were not for lesser men, you are just making that up, that quote wasn't even a warning that was him telling a story, but it still served as a warning, a warning Magnus ignored.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/06/28 02:19:13
Subject: Re:The wisest Primarch?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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I don't even understand what you are saying.
The emperor warned Magnus about the dangers of messing around with sorcery, fine. But by no means did he tell Magnus about the true nature of chaos, nor about the chaos gods, nor about daemons. Magnus had to figure out what daemons were on his own.
The emperor told magnus basically (paraphrasing) "the warp is dangerous Magnus, be careful... you could wind up dead" and Magnus THOUGHT he was being careful and clever in his dealings with sorcery. The emperor did NOT warn Magnus about the true nature of chaos or daemons, or that making deals with such creatures would damn his soul no matter how clever he thought he was. Magnus ignored the emperor's vague warnings because he thought he was cleverer than the warp entities and could outsmart them like the emperor.
Magnus KNEW the emperor was conducting sorcery experiments in the Imperial palace, and found it hypocritical that he was telling Magnus not to mess with stuff he very obviously was messing with himself. Magnus knew he was the psychic equal of the emperor and thought that the emperor was trying to keep knowledge from him. The emperor, instead of explaining what he was doing or being more descriptive in his warnings to Magnus... tried to deny that he was using sorcery, and lied to the legions about what daemons were and the existence of the chaos gods.
The result was that Magnus damned himself and his legion without even realizing what he was doing... to quote:
Delvarus Centurion wrote:“I made no bargain,” said Magnus, “not with the likes of you.”“Oh, but you did,” laughed the eyes. “When, in your despair, you cried out for succour in the depths of the warp, when you begged for the means to save your sons – you flew too close to the sun, Magnus. You offered up your soul to save theirs, and that debt is now due."
Magnus broke the psychic defenses around Terra because he was trying to HELP the emperor, not because he wanted to help chaos.
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This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2018/06/28 02:27:58
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/06/28 02:27:42
Subject: Re:The wisest Primarch?
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Frenzied Berserker Terminator
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w1zard wrote:I don't even understand what you are saying.
The emperor warned Magnus about the dangers of messing around with sorcery, fine. But by no means did he tell Magnus about the true nature of chaos, nor about the chaos gods, nor about daemons. Magnus had to figure out what daemons were on his own.
The emperor told magnus basically (paraphrasing) "the warp is dangerous Magnus, be careful... you could wind up dead" and Magnus THOUGHT he was being careful and clever in his dealings with sorcery. The emperor did NOT warn Magnus about the true nature of chaos or daemons, or that making deals with such creatures would damn his soul no matter how clever he thought he was. Magnus ignored the emperor's vague warnings because he thought he was cleverer than the warp entities and could outsmart them like the emperor.
Magnus KNEW the emperor was conducting sorcery experiments in the Imperial palace, and found it hypocritical that he was telling Magnus not to mess with stuff he very obviously was messing with himself. Magnus knew he was the psychic equal of the emperor and thought that the emperor was trying to keep knowledge from him. The emperor, instead of explaining what he was doing or being more descriptive in his warnings to Magnus... tried to deny that he was using sorcery, and lied to the legions about what daemons were and the existence of the chaos gods.
The result was that Magnus damned himself and his legion without even realizing what he was doing... to quote:
Wrong the Primarchs knew you saw, Garviel. It is a secret thing, known to a very few, though the Emperor, beloved of all, knows more than any of us. A secret, Garviel, more than any other secret we are keeping to-day. Can you keep it? I’ll share it, for it will soothe your mind, but I need you to keep it solemnly.’‘I will,’ Loken said.The Warmaster took another sip. ‘It was the warp, Garviel.’‘The... warp?’‘Of course it was. We know the power of the warp and the cha-os it contains. We’ve seen it change men. We’ve seen the wretched things that infest its dark dimensions. I know you have. On Erridas. On Syrinx. On the bloody coast of Tassilon. There are entities in the warp that we might easily mistake for daemons.’‘Sir, I...’ Loken began. ‘I have been trained in the study of the warp. I am well-prepared to face its horrors. I have fought the foul things that pour forth from the gates of the Empyrean, and yes, the warp can seep into a man and transmute him. I have seen this happen, but only in psykers. It is the risk they take. Not in Astartes.’‘Do you understand the full mechanism of the warp, Garviel?’ Horus asked. He raised the glass to the nearest light to examine the colour of the wine.‘No, sir. I don’t pretend to.’‘Neither do I, my son. Neither does the Emperor, beloved by all. Not entirely. It pains me to admit that, but it is the truth, and we deal in truths above all else. The warp is a vital tool to us, a means of communication and transport. Without it, there would be no Imperium of Man, for there would be no quick bridges between the stars. We use it, and we harness it, but we have no absolute control over it. It is a wild thing that tolerates our pres-ence, but brooks no mastery. There is power in the warp, funda-mental power, not good, nor evil, but elemental and anathema to us. It is a tool we use at our own risk.’The Warmaster finished his glass and set it down. ‘Spirits. Daemons. Those words imply a greater power, a fiendish intellect and a purpose. An evil archetype with cosmic schemes and stratagems. They imply a god, or gods, at work behind the scenes. They imply the very supernatural state that we have tak-en great pains, through the light of science, to shake off. They imply sorcery and a palpable evil.’He looked across at Loken. ‘Spirits. Daemons. The supernatu-ral. Sorcery. These are words we have allowed to fall out of use, for we dislike the connotations, but they are just words. What you saw today... call it a spirit. Call it a daemon. The words serve well enough. Using them does not deny the clinical truth of the universe as man understands it. There can be daemons in a secular cosmos, Garviel. lust so long as we understand the use of the word.’‘Meaning the warp?’‘Meaning the warp. Why coin new terms for its horrors when we have a bounty of old words that might suit us just as well? We use the words “alien” and “xenos” to describe the inhuman filth we encounter in some locales. The creatures of the warp are just “aliens” too, but they are not life forms as we understand the term. They are not organic. They are extra-dimensional, and they influence our reality in ways that seem sorcerous to us. Super-natural, if you will. So let’s use all those lost words for them... daemons, spirits, possessors, changelings. All we need to re-member is that there are no gods out there, in the darkness, no great daemons and ministers of evil. There is no fundamental, immutable evil in the cosmos. It is too large and sterile for such melodrama. There are simply inhuman things that oppose us, things we were created to battle and destroy. Orks. Gykon. Tushepta. Keylekid. Eldar. Jokaero... and the creatures of the warp, which are stranger than all for they exhibit powers that are bizarre to us because of the otherness of their nature.
"The emperor told magnus basically (paraphrasing) "the warp is dangerous Magnus, be careful... you could wind up dead" and Magnus THOUGHT he was being careful and clever in his dealings with sorcery." this is just a complete lie, no wonder you have to paraphrase.
Magnus KNEW the emperor was conducting sorcery experiments in the Imperial palace, and found it hypocritical that he was telling Magnus not to mess with stuff he very obviously was messing with himself. Magnus knew he was the psychic equal of the emperor and thought that the emperor was trying to keep knowledge from him. The emperor, instead of explaining what he was doing or being more descriptive in his warnings to Magnus... tried to deny that he was using sorcery, and lied to the legions about what daemons were and the existence of the chaos gods. - This is another complete lie, Magnus knew of the bargains the Emperor made but he didn't say anything about hypocrisy that's not why he disobeyed him.
Magnus knew he damned his soul after talking with the daemon on Aghoru, he still usesd sorcery, the daemon tuteleries and still broke into the lattice,
Please use the lore, if you continue to make things up I won't continue arguing.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/06/28 02:28:55
Subject: Re:The wisest Primarch?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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The primarchs had no idea... you are quoting something Horus said after he fell to chaos and at that point he DID know about the true nature of chaos.
AGAIN: Magnus broke the psychic defenses around Terra because he was trying to HELP the emperor, not because he wanted to help chaos.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/06/28 02:29:59
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/06/28 02:30:21
Subject: Re:The wisest Primarch?
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Frenzied Berserker Terminator
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w1zard wrote:
The primarchs had no idea... you are quoting something Horus said after he fell to chaos and at that point he DID know about the true nature of the warp.
Wrong I'm quoting Horus Rising the first book, this quote is Horus (still loyal) talking to Loken after Loken saw the daemon at the whisperheads. Horus never told Loken of chaos after he turned, Loken was not trusted after Davin and he no longer was in the mournival.
I never said Magnus did it to help chaos. I said he did it after knowing he lost his soul bargaining with chaos.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/06/28 02:35:59
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/06/28 02:35:16
Subject: Re:The wisest Primarch?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Delvarus Centurion wrote:w1zard wrote:
The primarchs had no idea... you are quoting something Horus said after he fell to chaos and at that point he DID know about the true nature of the warp.
Wrong I'm quoting Horus Rising the first book, this quote is Horus (still loyal) talking to Loken after Loken saw the daemon at the whisperheads.
I never said Magnus did it to help chaos. I said he did it after knowing he lost his soul bargaining with chaos.
Horus Rising takes place after Horus was made warmaster and right when he started to fall to chaos. The athame stab was just the nail in the coffin.
Even then, theres nothing to say that the emperor was the one to give Horus this information. He could have (and most likely) got it from other sources considering the Emperor was trying to keep the existence of chaos a secret from even the primarchs.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/28 02:37:30
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/06/28 02:36:53
Subject: Re:The wisest Primarch?
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Frenzied Berserker Terminator
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w1zard wrote: Delvarus Centurion wrote:w1zard wrote:
The primarchs had no idea... you are quoting something Horus said after he fell to chaos and at that point he DID know about the true nature of the warp.
Wrong I'm quoting Horus Rising the first book, this quote is Horus (still loyal) talking to Loken after Loken saw the daemon at the whisperheads.
I never said Magnus did it to help chaos. I said he did it after knowing he lost his soul bargaining with chaos.
Horus Rising takes place after Horus was made warmaster and right when he started to fall to chaos. The athame stab was just the nail in the coffin.
No that's False Gods, Horus Rising is the first novel. Google the quote and find out yourself there is a pdf of Horus Rising, you can find the quote easily.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/06/28 02:39:41
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/06/28 02:39:04
Subject: Re:The wisest Primarch?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Delvarus Centurion wrote:w1zard wrote: Delvarus Centurion wrote:w1zard wrote:
The primarchs had no idea... you are quoting something Horus said after he fell to chaos and at that point he DID know about the true nature of the warp.
Wrong I'm quoting Horus Rising the first book, this quote is Horus (still loyal) talking to Loken after Loken saw the daemon at the whisperheads.
I never said Magnus did it to help chaos. I said he did it after knowing he lost his soul bargaining with chaos.
Horus Rising takes place after Horus was made warmaster and right when he started to fall to chaos. The athame stab was just the nail in the coffin.
No that's False Gods, Horus Rising is the first novel.
Wrong. From the description of Horus Rising:
"It is the two hundred and third year of the Great Crusade, and Horus, the primarch of the Luna Wolves Legio Astartes, has been Warmaster for barely a year, after the Emperor of Mankind retired from the Crusade and returned to Terra.
Under Horus, the 63rd Expedition Fleet's first major engagement since his elevation to Warmaster is the pacification of the planet Sixty-Three-Nineteen, a human civilization whose sovereign identifies himself as "The Emperor of Mankind". For daring to suggest the existence of "another" Emperor, Horus's envoy, Captain Hastur Sejanus, is murdered by the "Emperor"'s bodyguards, the so-called "Invisibles". There is nothing for it but to make war."
Horus was already warmaster at the time of Horus Rising.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/06/28 02:40:52
Subject: Re:The wisest Primarch?
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Frenzied Berserker Terminator
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w1zard wrote: Delvarus Centurion wrote:w1zard wrote: Delvarus Centurion wrote:w1zard wrote:
The primarchs had no idea... you are quoting something Horus said after he fell to chaos and at that point he DID know about the true nature of the warp.
Wrong I'm quoting Horus Rising the first book, this quote is Horus (still loyal) talking to Loken after Loken saw the daemon at the whisperheads.
I never said Magnus did it to help chaos. I said he did it after knowing he lost his soul bargaining with chaos.
Horus Rising takes place after Horus was made warmaster and right when he started to fall to chaos. The athame stab was just the nail in the coffin.
No that's False Gods, Horus Rising is the first novel.
Wrong. From the description of Horus Rising:
"It is the two hundred and third year of the Great Crusade, and Horus, the primarch of the Luna Wolves Legio Astartes, has been Warmaster for barely a year, after the Emperor of Mankind retired from the Crusade and returned to Terra.
Under Horus, the 63rd Expedition Fleet's first major engagement since his elevation to Warmaster is the pacification of the planet Sixty-Three-Nineteen, a human civilization whose sovereign identifies himself as "The Emperor of Mankind". For daring to suggest the existence of "another" Emperor, Horus's envoy, Captain Hastur Sejanus, is murdered by the "Emperor"'s bodyguards, the so-called "Invisibles". There is nothing for it but to make war."
Horus was already warmaster at the time of Horus Rising.
He was warmaster not traitor lol Warmaster is the title he was given at Ullanor lol Google the quote and find out yourself there is a pdf of Horus Rising, you can find the quote easily.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/28 02:41:18
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/06/28 02:47:44
Subject: Re:The wisest Primarch?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Delvarus Centurion wrote:
He was warmaster not traitor lol Warmaster is the title he was given at Ullanor lol Google the quote and find out yourself there is a pdf of Horus Rising, you can find the quote easily.
When Horus became warmaster is when he started to be influenced by chaos. He had already started his fall at that point. The athame stab just sealed the deal and pushed him over the edge to finally embrace chaos. Remember, after he became warmaster is when chaos influenced astartes started surrounding him and whispering in his ear.
Horus knew about the nature of daemons and chaos at that point, the quote makes that quite clear. However it is far more likely that Horus found out this information from a source other than the emperor, considering that the emperor explicitly stated to Malcador on multiple occasions that he was trying to keep the existence of chaos secret from the primarchs and space marines. Horus becoming warmaster was the beginning of the Horus Heresy, the very end of the great crusade. Magnus had already pretty much damned himself at this point without even realizing it.
Horus being elevated to warmaster and the council of nikaea happened roughly at the same time.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/28 02:49:38
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/06/28 02:50:04
Subject: Re:The wisest Primarch?
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Frenzied Berserker Terminator
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w1zard wrote: Delvarus Centurion wrote:
He was warmaster not traitor lol Warmaster is the title he was given at Ullanor lol Google the quote and find out yourself there is a pdf of Horus Rising, you can find the quote easily.
When Horus became warmaster is when he started to be influenced by chaos. He had already started his fall at that point. The athame stab just sealed the deal and pushed him over the edge to finally embrace chaos. Remember, after he became warmaster is when chaos influenced astartes started surrounding him and whispering in his ear.
Horus knew about the nature of daemons and chaos at that point, the quote makes that quite clear. However it is far more likely that Horus found out this information from a source other than the emperor, considering that the emperor explicitly stated to Malcador on multiple occasions that he was trying to keep the existence of chaos secret from the primarchs and space marines. Horus becoming warmaster was the beginning of the Horus Heresy, the very end of the great crusade. Magnus had already pretty much damned himself at this point without even realizing it.
No, he became Warmaster at Ullanor, when the Emperor left the Great Crusade. Have you even read the books, I mean that is a really odd thing to get so wrong.
"source other than the emperor, considering that the emperor explicitly stated to Malcador on multiple occasions that he was trying to keep the existence of chaos secret" This is just your opinion. Why would Malcador tell him if the Emperor told Malcador not to lol
Magnus damned himself and knew of it at Aghuro before the Heresy and before Nikaea.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/06/28 03:09:51
Subject: Re:The wisest Primarch?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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On lying to the primarchs:
" ...and all while he was telling the Primarchs that daemons were just another Xenos race in an ill-advised attempt to dispense with their mythological appearance and obvious possession of supernatural powers. This attempt left them vulnerable for Chaotic corruption among themselves or their Legions. Yes, He gave them incredibly vague warnings, but those were not even close to the amount of information He needed to give them..."
On Horus' fall:
"Horus himself was only pushed to fall because the Chaos Gods played on his worries that he wasn't fit to be Warmaster combined with the unrealized, greater fear that the Emperor never cared for him as a person and that he, the other Primarchs, and the Astartes as a whole would have no place in the Imperium after the Great Crusade's conclusion. (Horus likely being aware of what happened to the Thunder Warriors when they outlived their usefulness at the end of the Unification Wars probably stoked that particular fire nicely.)"
EDIT: I will try to find a quote from a book where the emperor is explaining to Malcador about keeping knowledge of chaos secret.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/28 03:11:16
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/06/28 03:14:47
Subject: Re:The wisest Primarch?
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Frenzied Berserker Terminator
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w1zard wrote:On lying to the primarchs:
" ...and all while he was telling the Primarchs that daemons were just another Xenos race in an ill-advised attempt to dispense with their mythological appearance and obvious possession of supernatural powers. This attempt left them vulnerable for Chaotic corruption among themselves or their Legions. Yes, He gave them incredibly vague warnings, but those were not even close to the amount of information He needed to give them..."
On Horus' fall:
"Horus himself was only pushed to fall because the Chaos Gods played on his worries that he wasn't fit to be Warmaster combined with the unrealized, greater fear that the Emperor never cared for him as a person and that he, the other Primarchs, and the Astartes as a whole would have no place in the Imperium after the Great Crusade's conclusion. (Horus likely being aware of what happened to the Thunder Warriors when they outlived their usefulness at the end of the Unification Wars probably stoked that particular fire nicely.)"
EDIT: I will try to find a quote from a book where the emperor is explaining to Malcador about keeping knowledge of chaos secret.
Wrong, Horus said they were alien, like xenos not just another xenos race.
No he became Warmaster hundreds of years before the Heresy. Warmaster is the name of the general of the Great Crusade that was Horus, it isn't a Chaos title. He turned to safe his life and because the visions showed him he would be dispensed with after the crusade, Not because he wasn't fit to be Warmaster he already was Warmaster.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/06/28 03:19:34
Subject: Re:The wisest Primarch?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Wrong, Horus said they were alien, like xenos not just another xenos race.
No he became Warmaster hundreds of years before the Heresy. Warmaster is the name of the general of the Great Crusade that was Horus, it isn't a Chaos title. He turned to safe his life and because the visions showed him he would be dispensed with after the crusade, Not because he wasn't fit to be Warmaster he already was Warmaster.
What? You're getting basic lore details wrong. The council of nikaea happened shortly after Horus was appointed warmaster:
"...Their outcry now so insistent that it soon became a major point of contention across the entire Imperium, with the primarchs split over the issue. Eventually, on the brink of leaving the Great Crusade after the ascension of Horus Lupercal to the position of Warmaster, the Emperor was forced to call a conclave of the War Council of the Great Crusade to resolve the issue of psykers amidst the Legiones Astartes, with himself acting as arbiter. The world chosen for the great Council was called Nikaea."
The Horus Heresy happened not long after the council of nikaea. Horus was only warmaster for a short time before he fell to chaos.
Not only that, you are misunderstanding me. We know Horus knew the true nature of chaos when he started his fall to chaos, but that doesn't mean that Magnus did, or that the emperor told Horus.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/28 03:20:51
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/06/28 03:49:21
Subject: Re:The wisest Primarch?
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Frenzied Berserker Terminator
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w1zard wrote: Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Wrong, Horus said they were alien, like xenos not just another xenos race.
No he became Warmaster hundreds of years before the Heresy. Warmaster is the name of the general of the Great Crusade that was Horus, it isn't a Chaos title. He turned to safe his life and because the visions showed him he would be dispensed with after the crusade, Not because he wasn't fit to be Warmaster he already was Warmaster.
What? You're getting basic lore details wrong. The council of nikaea happened shortly after Horus was appointed warmaster:
"...Their outcry now so insistent that it soon became a major point of contention across the entire Imperium, with the primarchs split over the issue. Eventually, on the brink of leaving the Great Crusade after the ascension of Horus Lupercal to the position of Warmaster, the Emperor was forced to call a conclave of the War Council of the Great Crusade to resolve the issue of psykers amidst the Legiones Astartes, with himself acting as arbiter. The world chosen for the great Council was called Nikaea."
The Horus Heresy happened not long after the council of nikaea. Horus was only warmaster for a short time before he fell to chaos.
Not only that, you are misunderstanding me. We know Horus knew the true nature of chaos when he started his fall to chaos, but that doesn't mean that Magnus did, or that the emperor told Horus.
No he wasn't, he was Warmaster at Ullanor, then Nikaea happened, then Horus turned at Davin and then the Heresy happened. Horus was Warmaster for ages until he turned to chaos. He knew of the true nature of Chaos before his fall, he knew as well as the other Primarchs
Mortarion knew, telling Magnus that he bargained with powers that were beyond his comprehension.
Magnus new of the Chaos gods:
Yes, Ahzek,” said Magnus. “To save my sons, I made a devil’s bargain, and like the great doctor before me, I thought I had the best of it. All this time, I have been a blind fool, a puppet jerked on the strings of an intelligence greater than mine.” A psychic shockwave sent a sharp fracture knifing through the crystal, and a jagged red line appeared in the centre of the eye.“I was desperate. I had exhausted every other alternative to save you all,” hissed Magnus, his voice sending brittle cracks throughout the crystal. “From the moment I turned my other eye inwards, I knew they were there: The Eternal Powers of the Great Ocean, beings older than time with power beyond imagining. Only they had the means to save you all from hideous mutation and death, so yes, I supped from their poisoned chalice. You were restored to me and I was content. What father would not do everything in his power to save his sons?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/06/28 04:19:53
Subject: Re:The wisest Primarch?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Delvarus Centurion wrote:
No he wasn't, he was Warmaster at Ullanor, then Nikaea happened, then Horus turned at Davin and then the Heresy happened. Horus was Warmaster for ages until he turned to chaos. He knew of the true nature of Chaos before his fall, he knew as well as the other Primarchs
Horus was warmaster for 5 years between the end of the Ulanor campaign and the drop site massacre, and he turned to chaos even before the drop site massacre.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Horus_Heresy_Timeline
He didn't know the full measure of them before the webway incident, and didn't even know they existed before Aghuro.
Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Yes, Ahzek,” said Magnus. “To save my sons, I made a devil’s bargain, and like the great doctor before me, I thought I had the best of it. All this time, I have been a blind fool, a puppet jerked on the strings of an intelligence greater than mine.” A psychic shockwave sent a sharp fracture knifing through the crystal, and a jagged red line appeared in the centre of the eye.“I was desperate. I had exhausted every other alternative to save you all,” hissed Magnus, his voice sending brittle cracks throughout the crystal. “From the moment I turned my other eye inwards, I knew they were there: The Eternal Powers of the Great Ocean, beings older than time with power beyond imagining. Only they had the means to save you all from hideous mutation and death, so yes, I supped from their poisoned chalice. You were restored to me and I was content. What father would not do everything in his power to save his sons?
This quote just proves my point that Magnus had no idea what he was dealing with. Pay attention to the part here: "I have been a blind fool, a puppet jerked on the strings of an intelligence greater than mine." Magnus was tricked into aiding chaos because of his own arrogance and because he had absolutely no idea what he was really dealing with. He was in no way a willing servant of chaos until after the Battle of Prospero.
"...so yes, I supped from their poisoned chalice...." He is speaking with the benefit of hindsight here, at the time he didn't know that the chalice was "poisoned" and that the chaos gods were tricking him.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/06/28 04:22:38
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/06/28 04:42:32
Subject: Re:The wisest Primarch?
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Frenzied Berserker Terminator
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w1zard wrote: Delvarus Centurion wrote:
No he wasn't, he was Warmaster at Ullanor, then Nikaea happened, then Horus turned at Davin and then the Heresy happened. Horus was Warmaster for ages until he turned to chaos. He knew of the true nature of Chaos before his fall, he knew as well as the other Primarchs
Horus was warmaster for 5 years between the end of the Ulanor campaign and the drop site massacre, and he turned to chaos even before the drop site massacre.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Horus_Heresy_Timeline
He didn't know the full measure of them before the webway incident, and didn't even know they existed before Aghuro.
Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Yes, Ahzek,” said Magnus. “To save my sons, I made a devil’s bargain, and like the great doctor before me, I thought I had the best of it. All this time, I have been a blind fool, a puppet jerked on the strings of an intelligence greater than mine.” A psychic shockwave sent a sharp fracture knifing through the crystal, and a jagged red line appeared in the centre of the eye.“I was desperate. I had exhausted every other alternative to save you all,” hissed Magnus, his voice sending brittle cracks throughout the crystal. “From the moment I turned my other eye inwards, I knew they were there: The Eternal Powers of the Great Ocean, beings older than time with power beyond imagining. Only they had the means to save you all from hideous mutation and death, so yes, I supped from their poisoned chalice. You were restored to me and I was content. What father would not do everything in his power to save his sons?
This quote just proves my point that Magnus had no idea what he was dealing with. Pay attention to the part here: "I have been a blind fool, a puppet jerked on the strings of an intelligence greater than mine." Magnus was tricked into aiding chaos because of his own arrogance and because he had absolutely no idea what he was really dealing with. He was in no way a willing servant of chaos until after the Battle of Prospero.
"...so yes, I supped from their poisoned chalice...." He is speaking with the benefit of hindsight here, at the time he didn't know that the chalice was "poisoned" and that the chaos gods were tricking him.
Just admit you are wrong, so what if it was 5 years he was warmaster, that's not what you thought or said.
"He didn't know the full measure of them before the webway incident, and didn't even know they existed before Aghuro." wrong he did know the full measure before the webway the daemon told him and he admitted to Ahriman how doomed he was for treating with chaos. and he knew the powers of the warp before Aghoru.
He still knew of the powers, he knew the devastation dealing with them wrought but he thought he wouldn't be effected. But he knew of the Eternal powers.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/06/28 04:46:58
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/06/28 06:41:21
Subject: The wisest Primarch?
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
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Delvarus is correct, Magnus was carrying a montrously powerful deamon around in his book, but hard to claim he didn’t know about Deamons when he carried one everywhere.
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