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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Stux wrote:
It's a very different situation. Primaris is the new army wide standard.

They're literally a new unit. Old marines weren't phased out by Centurions or new Terminator armors. You're looking for something to be negative about when there's literally nothing in the first place. As though you almost just wanted a reason to hate Primaris...

Centurions were just new equipment, Primaris are completely new type of marine. Old marines are literally already being phased out in the fluff. All chapters have had the tech to make Primaris for a century now, so pretty much only non-primaris marines left are over hundred years old, and will die out soon.

 Crimson wrote:

Centurions were just new equipment, Primaris are completely new type of marine. Old marines are literally already being phased out in the fluff. All chapters have had the tech to make Primaris for a century now, so pretty much only non-primaris marines left are over hundred years old, and will die out soon.

Unless they are tank crew, flyer crew, bikers, to be trusted with anything more stabby than a powersword, be given a big gun.
You know kinda useful things that are necessary for a combined arms force.

GW made CentDevs unplayable due to their point cost now.

 Primark G wrote:
GW made CentDevs unplayable due to their point cost now.

And last edition they where one of the "best in slot" choices for space marines. Thats just how 40k goes, yesterdays king is todays pauper

BrianDavion wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
GW made CentDevs unplayable due to their point cost now.

And last edition they where one of the "best in slot" choices for space marines. Thats just how 40k goes, yesterdays king is todays pauper

Aye. The changes to damage and wounds this edition did not treat centurions well. 3 wounds is a joke on a ~100pt model. There's really no reason not to just get dreadnoughts instead for long range firepower or for melee at the moment.

Centurions need like 5+ wounds to be viable at the moment I'd say.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Retcon Primaris Marines as only having new equipment, rather than making them Mary Sue Super-Dooper-Chadmarines, and make all the "old" squad loadouts use the Intercessor Statline and base price, with maybe Scouts alone keeping their old 1W statline.
Re-make the old loadouts in Primaris Scale and be done with it.

I know a lot of folks will be against this, but for me the moment I imagine "true scale" MK VII armor marines, and Terminators, all scaled up to the dimensions of Primaris... I would happily retire my entire collection and collect it all over again.

Finally, my scouts and guard would look like they do in the art, tiny beside the Astartes.

w1zard wrote:
Terrible Primaris lore exists because GW needed to shoehorn Primaris marines into the lore somehow. They didn't have the testicular fortitude to say "We are redoing the entire space marine line in truescale. You can use your oldscale marines until we make truescale replacements for that particular unit, at which point those models will become illegal in matched play."

Or maybe even "We are redoing marines as truescale, go ahead and use the oldscale equivalent for the models we release because all our models since rogue trader have slowly grown in size and impressiveness and theres no reason we should dick over our existing fanbase this time in particular".

Regardless of which direction GW went there would be people upset about it. I imagine they choose the option they felt would piss off the least number of people.

If the Primaris sold well, than I would expect a lot more in the future and the retirement of the classic range. If they didn't then we won't. And GW will search for a new way to expand the range of Space Marines. Regardless in a few years what ever happens there will be new SM kits for sale.

I'd buy a lot more Primaris models if they had better crunch.

I would like to see Primaris Terminators that are different than Gravis. Fluff it that they are Veteran Primaris Marines wearing modified Terminator armor that fits their larger frames. Something the size of Allarus Terminators would be nice, but in the Indomitus Pattern armor.

But still, there are way too many unit types that Primaris can't replicate very well, Terminators and Assault Marines being the ones that come to mind off hand, or any sort of dedicated role tanks (which is VERY odd considering all of the other Primaris units are dedicated role), regular Marines will always be around.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
I'd buy a lot more Primaris models if they had better crunch.

Agreed. Most of their rules are lackluster at best, laughably awful at best.

Inceptors, Intercessors, Hellblasters and some of the characters are plenty crunchy.

 Primark G wrote:
Inceptors, Intercessors, Hellblasters and some of the characters are plenty crunchy.

I can't think of a single primaris character I'd rather take than a non-primaris equivalent, because marine characters get mobility options and better, less predetermined wargear choices.

"hey, i'd like a close combat character please"

"here you go - oh, and here's his mandatory gakky ranged weapon, and here's his mandatory pistol, and here's his mandatory Banner Of Primaris Awesomeness, and here's his mandatory power sword because the model has one clipped to the belt even though he's got a powerfist you'll use every time.

Also he's slow. No jump packs or bikes allowed.

Have fun."

 Primark G wrote:
Inceptors, Intercessors, Hellblasters and some of the characters are plenty crunchy.

Intercessors form the Troops section of both of my SM armies (Crimson Fists and Blood Angels). They do a decent job in both cases by being fairly survivable. My Crimson Fists Hellblasters just don't get much done. They tend to get focus fired to death. I haven't gotten my Inceptors out yet for my Blood Angels.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
Inceptors, Intercessors, Hellblasters and some of the characters are plenty crunchy.

I can't think of a single primaris character I'd rather take than a non-primaris equivalent, because marine characters get mobility options and better, less predetermined wargear choices.

"hey, i'd like a close combat character please"

"here you go - oh, and here's his mandatory gakky ranged weapon, and here's his mandatory pistol, and here's his mandatory Banner Of Primaris Awesomeness, and here's his mandatory power sword because the model has one clipped to the belt even though he's got a powerfist you'll use every time.

Also he's slow. No jump packs or bikes allowed.

Have fun."

Oh, and you want to put him in a transport? Here is your 300+ pt transport. Good luck!

Every time I consider a primaris unit for my Deathwatch I get stopped becuase they feel like hand-hold kiddy units.

If you give little jimmy a choice, he might make one that's bad, so lets make sure jimmy's marine units always come with a ranged weapon, and always come with a melee weapon, and always come with an anti-infantry weapon, and always come with an anti-tank weapon, and that you can't switch those out because jimmy might accidentally make a decision that's dumb.

I get it, I really do. I still own models from my original Space Wolf army that I look back at with a fondness. I was actually incredibly excited when the Deathwatch rules came out that I got to dig around in my old box and give a spiffy new set of paint to my Space Wolves sergeant with Storm Bolter and Thunder Hammer on foot, because amazingly DW can make that work. I still have my Devastator Squad with one missile launcher, one multi-melta, one heavy bolter and one lascannon, because that's what came in the box. And I still remember my very first game with them, then they fired everything they had at a leman russ tank, did absolutely nothing, then got completely flattened by the single battlecannon shot that came in response.

I get that some kids would probably get mad about that and leave the game. It just means I have no interest in playing primaris marines as an adult.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
Inceptors, Intercessors, Hellblasters and some of the characters are plenty crunchy.

Intercessors form the Troops section of both of my SM armies (Crimson Fists and Blood Angels). They do a decent job in both cases by being fairly survivable. My Crimson Fists Hellblasters just don't get much done. They tend to get focus fired to death. I haven't gotten my Inceptors out yet for my Blood Angels.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
Inceptors, Intercessors, Hellblasters and some of the characters are plenty crunchy.

I can't think of a single primaris character I'd rather take than a non-primaris equivalent, because marine characters get mobility options and better, less predetermined wargear choices.

"hey, i'd like a close combat character please"

"here you go - oh, and here's his mandatory gakky ranged weapon, and here's his mandatory pistol, and here's his mandatory Banner Of Primaris Awesomeness, and here's his mandatory power sword because the model has one clipped to the belt even though he's got a powerfist you'll use every time.

Also he's slow. No jump packs or bikes allowed.

Have fun."

Oh, and you want to put him in a transport? Here is your 300+ pt transport. Good luck!

"and just in case your opponent has lots of guys, the transport has a machine gun on it.

And just in case they have a plane, it also has an anti-flyer missile.

And just in case they have a tank, it also has a lascannon.

Look at how well you're doing! Your marines can handle everything! Think how cool this tank is going to look with all those guns on it!"

I run the Primaris Captain with PF & PP plus Santic Halo - does just fine.

All primaris models are basically DOA with Drukhari in the meta.

They were DoA the moment that plasma was a thing in 8th edition. So, from the very beginning.

the_scotsman wrote:

w1zard wrote:
Terrible Primaris lore exists because GW needed to shoehorn Primaris marines into the lore somehow. They didn't have the testicular fortitude to say "We are redoing the entire space marine line in truescale. You can use your oldscale marines until we make truescale replacements for that particular unit, at which point those models will become illegal in matched play."

Or maybe even "We are redoing marines as truescale, go ahead and use the oldscale equivalent for the models we release because all our models since rogue trader have slowly grown in size and impressiveness and theres no reason we should dick over our existing fanbase this time in particular".

Can't do that. Having two different legal models of differing sizes for the same unit isn't going to fly. Especially when it may make a difference, like peeking over terrain.

w1zard wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

w1zard wrote:
Terrible Primaris lore exists because GW needed to shoehorn Primaris marines into the lore somehow. They didn't have the testicular fortitude to say "We are redoing the entire space marine line in truescale. You can use your oldscale marines until we make truescale replacements for that particular unit, at which point those models will become illegal in matched play."

Or maybe even "We are redoing marines as truescale, go ahead and use the oldscale equivalent for the models we release because all our models since rogue trader have slowly grown in size and impressiveness and theres no reason we should dick over our existing fanbase this time in particular".

Can't do that. Having two different legal models of differing sizes for the same unit isn't going to fly. Especially when it may make a difference, like peeking over terrain.

... Does someone else want to tell him or should I?

You do realise multiple models have different sized models over the years? Dreadnoughts, Carnifexes, hell even Tactical Marines. The Mk1 vs the Mk2 Rhino is another great example.

Hell, the tiny, tiny Ork Trukk is still legal.

So much sass here...

I do love my Primaris but if I could make a wishlist for them it'd look something like this:

Competence.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

w1zard wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

w1zard wrote:
Terrible Primaris lore exists because GW needed to shoehorn Primaris marines into the lore somehow. They didn't have the testicular fortitude to say "We are redoing the entire space marine line in truescale. You can use your oldscale marines until we make truescale replacements for that particular unit, at which point those models will become illegal in matched play."

Or maybe even "We are redoing marines as truescale, go ahead and use the oldscale equivalent for the models we release because all our models since rogue trader have slowly grown in size and impressiveness and theres no reason we should dick over our existing fanbase this time in particular".

Can't do that. Having two different legal models of differing sizes for the same unit isn't going to fly. Especially when it may make a difference, like peeking over terrain.

... Does someone else want to tell him or should I?

You do realise multiple models have different sized models over the years? Dreadnoughts, Carnifexes, hell even Tactical Marines. The Mk1 vs the Mk2 Rhino is another great example.

But not at the same time? Usually you always had to use the newest model correct? I mean, I can accept custom conversions being allowed so long as they are roughly the same size and shape as the official model, but multiple legal models of greatly differing size? That seems so... stupid for a game trying to be taken seriously.

 Fafnir wrote:
Hell, the tiny, tiny Ork Trukk is still legal.

You sure?

w1zard wrote:
But not at the same time? Usually you always had to use the newest model correct?

No, not correct. No correct now, not correct in the past, and never will be correct. Where in the name of the Manperor of Mankind did you get that idea?

w1zard wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:
Hell, the tiny, tiny Ork Trukk is still legal.

You sure?

Yes, we are sure. Please, if I have missed something in the rulebook, illuminate me of my ignorance.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
No, not correct. No correct now, not correct in the past, and never will be correct. Where in the name of the Manperor of Mankind did you get that idea?

Common fething sense? Sanity?

w1zard wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
No, not correct. No correct now, not correct in the past, and never will be correct. Where in the name of the Manperor of Mankind did you get that idea?

Common fething sense? Sanity?

In case you haven't noticed, common sense has zero place in 40k. 40k is a world where being flamethrowers are the supreme anti-aircraft weaponry.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

w1zard wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
No, not correct. No correct now, not correct in the past, and never will be correct. Where in the name of the Manperor of Mankind did you get that idea?

Common fething sense? Sanity?

In case you haven't noticed, common sense has zero place in 40k. 40k is a world where being flamethrowers are the supreme anti-aircraft weaponry.

Can you show that mathematically or are you just complaining Flamers can hit them now?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

w1zard wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
No, not correct. No correct now, not correct in the past, and never will be correct. Where in the name of the Manperor of Mankind did you get that idea?

Common fething sense? Sanity?

In case you haven't noticed, common sense has zero place in 40k. 40k is a world where being flamethrowers are the supreme anti-aircraft weaponry.

Can you show that mathematically or are you just complaining Flamers can hit them now?

(In case anyone was actually wondering)

Assuming ideal ranges and no re-rolls vs a T7 3+ Sv flier with -1 to hit:

Meltagun - 1.5 wounds
OC Plasmagun - 1.111 wounds
Las cannon - 0.97 wounds
Missile Launcher - 0.777 wounds
Grav gun - .5555 wounds
Flamer - 0.3888 wounds

So for space marines anyway, it's actually the worst option.

Some of the big flamers aren't terrible at killing fliers, but they are more just good at everything.

w1zard wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:
Hell, the tiny, tiny Ork Trukk is still legal.

You sure?

Yes. It's no less an official Games Workshop model than any other. GW's official stance for events they sponsor is that you use official Games Workshop models. Base sizes should be altered to accommodate changes, but your models themselves never go bad. People put a lot of time and effort into their models. It would be absurd to say that someone can't play with their toy soldiers because they're too old.

 Fafnir wrote:

Yes. It's no less an official Games Workshop model than any other. GW's official stance for events they sponsor is that you use official Games Workshop models. Base sizes should be altered to accommodate changes, but your models themselves never go bad. People put a lot of time and effort into their models. It would be absurd to say that someone can't play with their toy soldiers because they're too old.

But for a game that is supposed to be taken seriously and supposedly played competitively, you really can't have wildly varing models (conversions are fine so long as they are the same size) representing the same thing, it totally throws off the game balance. People put a lot of time and effort into their models sure, but you really shouldn't be playing with an ork trukk from 20 years ago, sorry. ESPECIALLY if GW has released updated models for the same unit. Time to buy some new models and keep your army contemperary.

That doesn't mean you have to throw out your old models, keep them as they are a cool reminder of the past, but they shouldn't have any place in matched play.

Assembling an army and expecting to play it as is for the rest of your life is both naive and idiotic.

When I first saw the Primaris Aggressors, I did think they were basically Terminators - wouldn't mind if they were, just give them the 2+ save (and maybe an invuln save).

What I do like is they look like someone was smart enough to strap the guns to the forearms and give them dual powerfists. I guess Calgar finally let Cawl peek at the blueprints for his armor, or someone noticed the Grey Knights were keeping their hands free.

Of course, they got wholly outdone by Custodes...