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 Niiai wrote:
Wow, I did not know that plasma drop was so bad vs them.

From a theoretical perspective, if a rhino with combi melta wolf guards pops out near a knight, how many wounds do they do on a 10 man squad?

Are you asking how much damage a rhino full of combi-melta wolf guards shoots at a Knight? 10 melta shots will deal like 12 damage, that's about it. The 3++ invuln blocks a LOT of fire.

If you can get null zone or Death hex off, its a lot better. Removes that invulnerable. But this assumes you are in range to get it off, and it goes cast, and it doesn't get denied. I managed that one super lucky time when I brought a black legion Abaddon full lascannon type of army against imperium soup with Castellan.

Jump pack sorceror flew 12 inches, cast warptime on himself, flew another 12 inches and advanced. Brought me just in range to cast death hex and it went off. But here's the thing, I still couldn't kill that thing even with like 18 or was it 20 lascannons in my army after the death hex removed its unvul because some were out of range. But I managed to bring it down to a few HP and it died on turn 2.

It was an army specifically tailored to beat Castellan and everything went right. If just one thing had gone wrong and I failed to get death hex off, I would have lost the sorceror and there are no second tries with such a strategy.

And you can be sure the next time I bring a death hex sorceror, my friend will be really careful and aware about that threat too.

I'm never in a rush to kill any IK other than a castellan. The other I can typically grind out with smites and melee. And rate of fire weapons S5+. IK shooting sucks other than the castellan.

A full squad of TH/SS Terminators average .5 x .5 x .83 x 3 x 21 = 13 wounds on a Knight. Prior to the fight-twice stratagem, and without any command buffs. Very solid, you just got to get 'em there.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Also, consider non Castellan solo knight can be even more efficient. Say Imperium soup brings one solo Gallant. That thing can take warlord trait to give it 4++ and then take the relic that gives it a 2+ armour save.

I always do that when i play my gallant single knight. I was once attacked by buffed PBs, which could do up to 4 damage per hit. My 2+ sv really helped against those AP0 attacks.

I'm always much less concerned when I see a Gallant, because it's so easy to impede them.

The fact that they aren't screened makes the highly efficient counter-strategies like psychic power invul stripping and smash characters much easier to deliver to them, and a single cultist/rhino/nurgling/whatever can easily stonewall their movement for a turn by parking 3.01" away from the center of their base. Remember, they only get to move over infantry when falling back. just DONT make the mistake of moving right up to them because you will eat a heroic intervene.

Theoretically, 17 full Conscript squads (510 Guardsmen in total) should be able to kill a regular Knight during one shooting phase, considering they are all in RF range and half of them get FRFSRF.

24 Infantry Squads (240 Guardsmen) in case they are all in RF and have FRFSRF.
'
16 Infantry Squads if they were Cadians, in RF range, ordered with FRFSRF, buffed by 'Overlapping Fields of Fire' stratagem
12 Veteran Squads if they were Cadians, in RF range, ordered with FRFSRF, buffed by 'Overlapping Fields of Fire' stratagem

No special weapons, just Lasguns alone.

Gallants are big models, with huge bases and no fly. They can be screened and have lots of counters, you don't need to one round them.

Spoletta wrote:
Gallants are big models, with huge bases and no fly. They can be screened and have lots of counters, you don't need to one round them.

The biggest struggle is their ability to heroically intervene (as they are usually Characters with exalted court strat) and then fall back thru infantry in their own turn. I do agree however that they are quite easy to screen if you know to keep away from them enough to prevent a heroic intervene. Screening them is quite straightforward as they do not have good ability to clear more than 6-7 GEQ infantry with their stomps.

If you do have a flyer though you can really give them hell. They can't hit you, can't move through you, and your base is wide as hell as well. Every time I play my Hemlock against a non-fly target that needs to move, it ends up HATING that thing by the end of the game because I can just universally park right in front of it and stop its movement.

the_scotsman wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
Gallants are big models, with huge bases and no fly. They can be screened and have lots of counters, you don't need to one round them.

The biggest struggle is their ability to heroically intervene (as they are usually Characters with exalted court strat) and then fall back thru infantry in their own turn. I do agree however that they are quite easy to screen if you know to keep away from them enough to prevent a heroic intervene. Screening them is quite straightforward as they do not have good ability to clear more than 6-7 GEQ infantry with their stomps.

If you do have a flyer though you can really give them hell. They can't hit you, can't move through you, and your base is wide as hell as well. Every time I play my Hemlock against a non-fly target that needs to move, it ends up HATING that thing by the end of the game because I can just universally park right in front of it and stop its movement.

Eh, if you take a House Terryn Knight Gallant, it can fight twice, for 30 stomps, hitting on 2+, killing on 2+. Yes, it costs CP, but you're not going to tie that thing down in close combat with a tarpit unit. As for parking a flyer in front of it... yea, that would be annoying, but can't it move around the flyer? You'd reduce it's charge range by what, 6" or so, since it needs to spend that to get around you? Full Tilt would still give it a pretty big threat range.

I haven't played it yet, but I think it's going to be a bit harder to counter than you're making it sound. The main reason I have it is to draw fire from my Tank Commanders and Helverins, so they can kill big threats while the Gallant draws fire. You can slow it down, sure, but if you focus on my other tanks and let the Gallant get to you it's gonna cause a lot of problems.

I decided to go with a Gallant + 2 Armiger Helverins instead of a single Castellan, because at least to me it seems harder to counter for Eldar players. Skyweavers with Haywire launchers will tear a Castellan's donkey-cave out through it's face immediately, while at least with the Gallant/Helverins, if you take down the Gallant the Helverins can open up on the Skyweavers with Skyreaper Protocols to try to kill a few of them right back.

I'm looking forward to testing it out though.

Spoletta wrote:
Gallants are big models, with huge bases and no fly. They can be screened and have lots of counters, you don't need to one round them.

yes, havee your infantry, jetboke biker and other flying shooting unit hide on 2nd level of terrain and you are all good. The only concern would be if it blow up.

 Horst wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
Gallants are big models, with huge bases and no fly. They can be screened and have lots of counters, you don't need to one round them.

The biggest struggle is their ability to heroically intervene (as they are usually Characters with exalted court strat) and then fall back thru infantry in their own turn. I do agree however that they are quite easy to screen if you know to keep away from them enough to prevent a heroic intervene. Screening them is quite straightforward as they do not have good ability to clear more than 6-7 GEQ infantry with their stomps.

If you do have a flyer though you can really give them hell. They can't hit you, can't move through you, and your base is wide as hell as well. Every time I play my Hemlock against a non-fly target that needs to move, it ends up HATING that thing by the end of the game because I can just universally park right in front of it and stop its movement.

Eh, if you take a House Terryn Knight Gallant, it can fight twice, for 30 stomps, hitting on 2+, killing on 2+. Yes, it costs CP, but you're not going to tie that thing down in close combat with a tarpit unit. As for parking a flyer in front of it... yea, that would be annoying, but can't it move around the flyer? You'd reduce it's charge range by what, 6" or so, since it needs to spend that to get around you? Full Tilt would still give it a pretty big threat range.

I haven't played it yet, but I think it's going to be a bit harder to counter than you're making it sound. The main reason I have it is to draw fire from my Tank Commanders and Helverins, so they can kill big threats while the Gallant draws fire. You can slow it down, sure, but if you focus on my other tanks and let the Gallant get to you it's gonna cause a lot of problems.

I decided to go with a Gallant + 2 Armiger Helverins instead of a single Castellan, because at least to me it seems harder to counter for Eldar players. Skyweavers with Haywire launchers will tear a Castellan's donkey-cave out through it's face immediately, while at least with the Gallant/Helverins, if you take down the Gallant the Helverins can open up on the Skyweavers with Skyreaper Protocols to try to kill a few of them right back.

I'm looking forward to testing it out though.

With the size of the knights base and the size of the flyer's base, a knight with a flyer directly 1" in front of it can only manage to move 4" forward in a turn, and that's if you don't have a piece of terrain it can't move through to pincer it against (which is, in my experience, very easy to do).

You aren't stalling the knight by keeping it in close combat. it can fall back and move over infantry. You're impeding its movement across the board by sitting things in front of it. if your opponent is actually playing by the rules of movement, which I find mooooooost people don't actually do, because they move their vehicles over ruins and within 1" of enemy models to get around them and pivot their bases for free, etc, then it is very easy to stop things from moving with your own things.

Because so many people casually break those rules, those tactics are largely ignored in many playgroups.

There are no rules for pivoting bases in tvis edition, except flyers that has to turn a maximum of 90 degrees.

But it is true that you have to stay 1" from enenies.

 Niiai wrote:
There are no rules for pivoting bases in tvis edition, except flyers that has to turn a maximum of 90 degrees.

But it is true that you have to stay 1" from enenies.

No part of the base can move farther than the movement value of the model.

Just for the lulz a genestealer cult psyker with mind control, especially if allied with units that give it a LD malus. Make the big bad dominus smash his cp battery and/or escorting knight and simultaniously waste a shieldbreaker (might even cancel out enemy using it on you if fire one per turn is interpreted strictly)

The best counter in my book is the Shadowsword.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
There are no rules for pivoting bases in tvis edition, except flyers that has to turn a maximum of 90 degrees.

But it is true that you have to stay 1" from enenies.

No part of the base can move farther than the movement value of the model.

Where is this stated? Usually you measure a model movement from the closest possition to where it was to the furthest position to where it went. Now yiu have to stay 1" away as well.

 Niiai wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
There are no rules for pivoting bases in tvis edition, except flyers that has to turn a maximum of 90 degrees.

But it is true that you have to stay 1" from enenies.

No part of the base can move farther than the movement value of the model.

Where is this stated? Usually you measure a model movement from the closest possition to where it was to the furthest position to where it went. Now yiu have to stay 1" away as well.

Rulebook, p. 177 under movement: "A model can be moved in any direction, to a distance, in inches, equal to or less than the Move characteristic on its datasheet. No part of the model’s base (or hull) can move further than this."

Ok. But they would just need to never pivot then.

 wuestenfux wrote:
The best counter in my book is the Shadowsword.

Unless the Knight is a Castellan and fires first. Volcano Lance should do about 9 wounds and Cawl's Wrath will do about the same. That will knock the Shadowsword down to its lowest profile even before the secondary weapons or other units shoot (add the Raven stratagem and the Castellan can probably one-shot the Shadowsword). The Shadowsword is good but is seriously hampered by the lack of Invulnerable save. A Castellan with RIS should survive a hit from a Shadowsword without dropping a profile if the Shadowsword shoots first. If the Castellan shoots first, the Shadowsword will be lucky to shoot at all.

That is why Castellans are the prime choice for Imperial Soup, not Shadowswords.

Mono guard doesnt really have a good answer its go first or lose because their answers are vulnerable to high AP

A scorpion with a farseer with guide and doom does just under 19 wounds according to mathhammer, admittedly that's over 800 pts though.

For mono guard, you just need to sink a ton of points into it. Something like 3 TCs, 2 bassies, a manticore, and someone with old grudes running cadian. Even then I think it's a few wounds shy. Maybe add another bassie.

kingheff wrote:
A scorpion with a farseer with guide and doom does just under 19 wounds according to mathhammer, admittedly that's over 800 pts though.

I though that craftworld eldar would use 3 fire prisms, Farseer, and a jinx caster to nuke knights cost effectively.

For what it's worth, my ANGRY MARINES intend to fight Knights with:

1. Massed Bolter fire
2. Shoving an untargetable Guilliman down a Knight's throat.

I have the tools to clear screens, make holes, and get there.

*disclaimer*

This is conjecture at this point, because I'm still building my first 500 points, but the army was put together by Hulksmash who in turn is one of the most formidable players on the tournament scene.

Perhaps the most ironic counter is an inquisitor with Dominate. It's not so much that you kill the Knight, it's that he becomes part of your army every psychic phase.

 Karhedron wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
The best counter in my book is the Shadowsword.

Unless the Knight is a Castellan and fires first. Volcano Lance should do about 9 wounds and Cawl's Wrath will do about the same. That will knock the Shadowsword down to its lowest profile even before the secondary weapons or other units shoot (add the Raven stratagem and the Castellan can probably one-shot the Shadowsword). The Shadowsword is good but is seriously hampered by the lack of Invulnerable save. A Castellan with RIS should survive a hit from a Shadowsword without dropping a profile if the Shadowsword shoots first. If the Castellan shoots first, the Shadowsword will be lucky to shoot at all.

That is why Castellans are the prime choice for Imperial Soup, not Shadowswords.

Shadowsword is designed to fight at 120" distance, so, if you put 3 tables together and set the two confronting armies 100" apart. The Shadowsword will outranges the Castellan Knight, for the 1st turn or two at least.

I've been using a Terminator Captain with the Shield eternal and Imperium's sword WLT (Reroll charge +1 attack on the charge) and buffed with MoH to make him T5, and Str10 and 6 attacks on the charge. Hitting on 3's rerolling 1s. Then wounding on 3 (I run him as Salamanders so rerolling a wound here). 3 Cp to fight again.

Insanely durable against anything knights have except deathgrip, alway be careful of deathgrip. and can put out a maximum of 36 wounds a turn to a knight

Averages out to 15 wounds if I did my math correctly (any chapter) but with 2 rerolls to wound (1 for each time he fights as Salamanders) and the CP reroll one rounding a knight is not outside the realm of possibility

Orks would also stand quite a good choice in taking down an IK. I saw a batrep yesterday where 2 units of Tankbusters (one buffed by "more dakka") plus one squad of Kustom Mega Cannon killed a Knight Valiant with 4++ with almost no pressure.

Why are so many people getting Skyweaver stats wrong?

It's S4 so only causes a normal wound on a 6, 4s and 5s just do a mortal wound. With Doom, it's still an effective weapon for taking off a ton of wounds from the knight. If the knight is Mechanicus, he's going to play the 5+ save vs Mortal Wound strat to eliminate 1/3 of those wounds, but Questoris knights are SOL, they don't get that strat.

I personally go 6 skyweavers, 2 hemlocks, 2 prisms. Should drop any knight in one turn if Doom/Jinx successfully cast.