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For me, painting is icing on a very expensive cake. Its what makes the game look pretty. It feels good to have some painted models on the table and having two painted armies on the table look so great.

But theres this thing called Life. Not everyone has time to properly paint a model. I know it takes me an hour minimum just to paint up a troop model but i consider myself to paint to a respectable standard. That is a significant time investment that i frankly dont have. Between family and 3 jobs, my downtime is far too rare and precious to waste on something that i only enjoy when in the mood. If im not in the mood to paint, im not going to paint.

In 13 years of the hobby, ive never met anyone that has turned down a game because of unpainted models. Honestly, if i had encountered this sort of attitude when i first started out in the hobby (a thing done for fun and recreation), it would have turned me off straight away. Fortunately, it was my friends that got me into it and it was my friends that I played with.
They organised modeling and painting sessions together, it was that friendly social atmosphere during painting that made the experience better.

Its easy to tear down grey models and players who have them maybe because life just gets in the way.
I think a change in mindset is needed from condemning grey models, to creating an environment where people are buolt up and encouraged to paint.

How many of us show up to a club day with only a handful of models just to paint? How many set up a painting table and a bowl of chips and sit down and invite people over to chill and paint? How many of us are willing to put down out own models and help someone paint their grey plastics and give tips?

I know ive been much more willing to paint in a friendly and social atmosphere wuth chips and drink and friendly faces sharing a beloved hobby.
If someone had simply said to me "painted or gtfo", I would have gotten nothing done.

Anyone can point a finger. Not as many will step up and be part of a solution.
This. Is. A. Hobby.

 Stormatious wrote:

I hope im allowed to enter back in to this conversation temporarily after saying i will withdraw, but i still think i have some worthwhile things to add to this topic after reading some new posts.

Nobody told you you had to leave.

You can't compare apples and oranges ( referring to you comparing wargaming to the famous "board game" monopoly.) .

I absolutely can. They are both games played with pieces on a board.

Look, its not just "painting", it is also what determines what legion or side your army is on,

The game not only allows but encourages you to make up your own "legions" and paint them however you want. While some armies (Tyranids for example) have no legions and according to the fluff the hive fleets will change coloring depending on planetary conditions. While the Tau will change their armor because they are not dumb enough to ignore camouflage. So you are not making a very strong argument here. The paint job is not equivalent to the rules so it doesn't matter how or if they are painted.

it also helps with knowing what weapons / gear your opponent is equipping with out having to get a telescope out or put your face right up to the grey miniature,

It CAN help. But it's also not required to have models be WYSIWYG. Especially because WYSIWYG is sometimes impossible. No bits have ever been made to represent ANY of the tyranid relics for example. How do I show my Tyrant with the Maw Claw? Or how about just regular rending claws? There is no bit for them in tyrant scale. So while the THOUGHT of paint making it easy to identify bits is nice, it's also just a moot point because the bits don't actually matter.

and it also most importantly looks great and encourages and re enforces the concept of what this is about, so that way we don't get a influx of grey noobs.

So you think the POINT is to avoid an influx of grey noobs?

Well see, I WANT a influx of grey noobs. The more people playing the better.

So you think the POINT is to avoid an influx of grey noobs?

Well see, I WANT a influx of grey noobs. The more people playing the better.

Without the grey noobs there wouldn't be a hobby. I am personally grateful to every grey noob who has joined the game. Hell, I was a grey noob when I joined and now I have spent too much money on this hobby.

 Eldarsif wrote:

So you think the POINT is to avoid an influx of grey noobs?

Well see, I WANT a influx of grey noobs. The more people playing the better.

Without the grey noobs there wouldn't be a hobby. I am personally grateful to every grey noob who has joined the game. Hell, I was a grey noob when I joined and now I have spent too much money on this hobby.

I don't mean new people who are just learning and thats why they have greys, i mean grey noobs that think its acceptable long term and with out aiming for a painted army thus spreading what you may call a disease if you want, but you get my point.

There are noobs with greys because there noob, and grey noobs that think they can be grey all the time and that's why they started.

It is acceptable. I think the disease is the attitude of elitist gate keeping and shaming that you are promoting. I would love to hear some actual arguments for why playing a game with unpainted models is a disease.

I understand painting models to high standard or at all, if your in to painting. I understand doing the same, if you go to tournaments. I undestand that someone may want their army too look cool, specially if they like it.

I even understand someone not wanting to play against unpainted or bad painted army. I have stuff like that too, would never play against an army that looks like nazis.

But if you don't like your army painting it seems like burning money on something you don't like. What is worse, being non GD tier painted, means you actually lowering the cost of the army, if you try to resell it.

I personally enjoy the social aspect of the hobby, getting together to chat while doing something we all enjoy whether its painting or playing. I've had the privilege to meet different communities across the world and would say from personal experience painted models look better but that's about all there is too it. Some of the most knowledgeable and enjoyable players I've met have wielded the dreaded gray plastic in their armies while I've met a fair share of TFG's with pro painted forces. Being a poor painter does not make you a poor player just like being a pro player does not make you a pro painter...

Still voted for equal since painting is just as much part of the hobby as playing and spending an afternoon hanging out and painting is just as fun as playing most days. Besides who are we kidding, the majority of people probably end up spending more time with the brush in hand than the dice, it just seems to pan out that way

 Lance845 wrote:
I would argue that the most enticing thing is not painted models but people having fun playing the game.

This is certainly true in my case! People tend to be impressed by the models but they buy that first box of mini's because they want to enjoy the hobby.

I don't mean new people who are just entered the hobby and still learning and thats why they have greys, i mean grey noobs that think its acceptable long term and with out aiming for a painted army thus spreading what you may call a disease if you want, but you get my point.

There are noobs with greys because there noob, and grey noobs that think they can be grey all the time and that's why they started.


gak i posted this twice.

I set this policy for myself, I'll play anyone at least once, no matter what they bring as a acceptable army, be that a proxy/grey assembled/badly painted etc. For us to have a 2nd game outside of a tourney, my opponent must be working toward a painted force whether by themselves or have it commissioned, its part of the hobby. Table top visuals are what captures this hobby and gather spectators around to entice them to join.

I get what you are saying. Someone who has had their army for 2 years and doesn't paint is a "grey noob" to you and a "disease".

Again, your elitist, gatekeeping, toxic, shaming attitude is a disease.

Please. Provide some arguments to support your stance.

 Lance845 wrote:
I get what you are saying. Someone who has had their army for 2 years and doesn't paint is a "grey noob" to you and a "disease".

Again, your elitist, gatekeeping, toxic, shaming attitude is a disease.

Please. Provide some arguments to support your stance.

I have provided arugments all day, but ill repeat.


1.Tradition
2.Discouraging people coming in to the hobby just because they think its generally accepted that you dont need to paint, and thus watering down the wargamings solid core values.

Those 2 are enough for now.

I think we should be stricter about gatekeeping.

If you haven't gone to Forgeworld and kissed the Rhino you are not allowed to play anyone until you do.

This way we will know that only the worthy are playing and that they mean business.

I've been playing for about 3 years, and aside from some models I got off EBay I have no painted models. I don't have fun painting because I don't have the time or patience and am prone to get over critical of my own work. That said I will have my models painted one day, but that is far down the road. Point is I am having fun and doing it without paint.

 Lance845 wrote:
It is acceptable. I think the disease is the attitude of elitist gate keeping and shaming that you are promoting. I would love to hear some actual arguments for why playing a game with unpainted models is a disease.

I would like that too. I have been collecting and playing since '90, the vast majority of my models are unpainted and I have never once had anyone complain about in person. I have played in GW stores, FLGs, tournaments, leagues and campaigns and in all that I have maybe a dozen people joke that I might get around to finishing my army in the next couple of decades. Most people though prefer to comment on all the 3d party models and bits and conversions that I generally have in an army.
I don't like to paint, I have bad eye sight, cant sit for very long and am not very good at it so I prefer not to do it. You don't want to play against my grey horde (generally coloured base coat horde) well don't, I am sure neither of us would have enjoyed the game in the first place. You want to try and shame me out of the hobby because I don't like to paint? Well good luck with that. Its a game I play for fun and its not fun when other people try to tell me that I am enjoying myself the wrong way, it is quite frankly none of your business what I do with my toys.

 Stormatious wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
I get what you are saying. Someone who has had their army for 2 years and doesn't paint is a "grey noob" to you and a "disease".

Again, your elitist, gatekeeping, toxic, shaming attitude is a disease.

Please. Provide some arguments to support your stance.

I have provided arugments all day, but ill repeat.


1.Tradition
2.Discouraging people coming in to the hobby just because they think its generally accepted that you dont need to paint, and thus watering down the wargamings solid core values.

Those 2 are enough for now.

Cool. I feel safe saying that I think you are representative of the absolute worst elements in the entire miniature war gaming community. When I talk to people about getting into it it always comes with the warning that you exist and they need to just avoid you at all costs.

You are welcome to your opinions. But toxic is the correct adjective.

 Lance845 wrote:

 Stormatious wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
I get what you are saying. Someone who has had their army for 2 years and doesn't paint is a "grey noob" to you and a "disease".

Again, your elitist, gatekeeping, toxic, shaming attitude is a disease.

Please. Provide some arguments to support your stance.

I have provided arugments all day, but ill repeat.


1.Tradition
2.Discouraging people coming in to the hobby just because they think its generally accepted that you dont need to paint, and thus watering down the wargamings solid core values.

Those 2 are enough for now.

Cool. I feel safe saying that I think you are representative of the absolute worst elements in the entire miniature war gaming community. When I talk to people about getting into it it always comes with the warning that you exist and they need to just avoid you at all costs.

You are welcome to your opinions. But toxic is the correct adjective.

Don't know why you think im being toxic, im not saying any thing extreme. And im not saying you shouldn't be allowed to play with greys whats so ever, im really trying to explain why its important to encourage people to pain using a stronger tone, and i'm trying to say it in a way that makes it more compelling to understanding my thoughts by drawing some what of a line.... Don't get you at all.

I wish you all the best.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Discouraging doesn't mean i dont want you to be around, it means not encouraging you to think greys are some thing that people in general would like to see on the miniture battlefield.

 Lance845 wrote:


I would argue that the most enticing thing is not painted models but people having fun playing the game. Monopoly has sold a insane number of companies over the years without me ever seeing a painted house/hotel. If people enjoy the game they play it. If people see people enjoying the game they want in on the fun. The painted models can look cool and be a boost too. But grey plastic is not a reversal on that. It's never a detriment to have 2 people with unpainted models having a great time.

In fact, 2 people with beautifully painted models looming over their table stern and determined and taking the game deathly seriously is more of a detriment to new players being enticed then 2 people with grey plastic laughing and smiling and having singular great time playing.

The tourny player you described is often in those stern and determined camp. They are not there for fun. They are there to win. And that... determination often comes with an attitude that effects the way the game looks in a way that is not enticing to new players.

I will agree that two people having a really good laugh with their game is never a bad thing but that is unrelated to the grey plastic debate. As you note the super-stern and un-fun types are more likely to be the once smashing face with their next tournament army. Worst case situation for our future young hobbyist entering a store for the first time is the competitive player with grey minis looking like they are having zero fun because its all such a serious business to them. We all know that in terms of growing the hobby that is the least enticing thing, some players just prefer not to care.

When it comes to that fun game with lots of backchat I will however point out that whenever I see a potential new little Timmy/Tammy in the store it is almost invariably with a mother - and the mother may or may not think positive thoughts about the banter between two guys on the table but will almost always see the positive in nice looking painted minis on the table. "Ooh, it would be nice if Timmy/Tammy could paint like that" sells to the mother, who is after all the one with the credit card at this point in a potential hobbyists life.

So I hear what you are saying but will stick to my position, in a store situation well painted minis are good for the store and for the hobby. Those of us in the hobby for a while should give a little thought to the health of the hobby and the store and try to present our hobby in a decent way when outside our garage Those who are new to the hobby or with particular difficulties on the hobby side we continue to welcome in rather than try to be self-appointed gatekeepers.

1.Tradition
2.Discouraging people coming in to the hobby just because they think its generally accepted that you dont need to paint, and thus watering down the wargamings solid core values.

To be fair the argument of tradition is used to enforce a lot of cruelty and downright disgusting habits in this world so I would never accept that as a good argument to enforce anything. Core Values are also a very subjective thing. Me - and a lot of people I play with - view the core values as camaraderie, openness, and helpfulness. It is fine that you view painting as a core value, but at the same time you must acknowledge that these are subjective values to each and every person and have no bearing on actual reality except how you behave towards it.

On an unrelated note I just suggest these posts be locked immediately. They are as productive as a charged political post.

 Eldarsif wrote:

1.Tradition
2.Discouraging people coming in to the hobby just because they think its generally accepted that you dont need to paint, and thus watering down the wargamings solid core values.

To be fair the argument of tradition is used to enforce a lot of cruelty and downright disgusting habits(for example genital mutilation) in this world so I would never accept that as a good argument to enforce anything. Core Values are also a very subjective thing. Me - and a lot of people I play with - view the core values as camaraderie, openness, and helpfulness. It is fine that you view painting as a core value, but at the same time you must acknowledge that these are subjective values to each and every person and have no bearing on actual reality except how you behave towards it.

Lol, earlier i compared Saudi Arabia cutting off heads as a bad tradition to this topic related to war gaming tradition ( replied to some body saying tradition doesn't make some thing good.), then i withdraw-ed that comment and apologized because i realized that was such a dumb thing to say.

Discouraging means people won't be around. Discouraging people about something that is none of your business is bad.

Lets equate your attitude to another thing...

"I don't think gays should be able to get married. I think it's important that we draw a line, that we enforce that line, and that we as a community stand up and make sure that they know that we don't think it's okay.

That doesn't mean I want gay people to leave the country btw. I just want them to get on my page and do things my way. After all, it's not tradition."

Bit of an extreme example there. But do you see how if you swap around a few words how toxic the attitude is?

If your argument is in spirit the exact same argument people use for gak like that then your argument is equally toxic in attitude.

You can be inclusive or you can be exclusive. You re exclusive.

Lol, earlier i compared Saudi Arabia cutting off heads as a bad tradition to war gaming, then i withdraw-ed that comment and apologized because i realized that was such a dumb thing to say.

Difference is that I wasn't comparing, but noting that tradition is a non-argument in this sense. Traditions are more often than not just peer pressure and have no objective relevance to anything.

 Lance845 wrote:
Discouraging means people won't be around. Discouraging people about something that is none of your business is bad.

Lets equate your attitude to another thing...

"I don't think gays should be able to get married. I think it's important that we draw a line, that we enforce that line, and that we as a community stand up and make sure that they know that we don't think it's okay.

That doesn't mean I want gay people to leave the country btw. I just want them to get on my page and do things my way."

Bit of an extreme example there. But do you see how if you swap around a few words how toxic the attitude is?

If your argument is in spirit the exact same argument people use for gak like that then your argument is equally toxic in attitude.

You can be inclusive or you can be exclusive. You re exclusive.

No, discouraging means not encouraging or letting the idea of grey miniatures becoming a "thing". As in not encouraging people to join based on the fact they think they dont have to paint, and there fore flooding tables every where with grey minis, thus watering down the "core values" of this hobby.


Any way yes your example is extreme and unrelated, so refer to the post i posted above this as it applies to you also.

This is why we can't have nice things.


I think we're done here.