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Valid points, but what about when you're playing against one of the 14 other factions in the game?

Sounds like you have a primary opponent who plays DE and can't see over that.

36 shots? Pfft... 72 since I have 9 Obliterators.

That'll be half my points or thereabouts but it'll be a fun drop. Commencing mathhammer.

Edit:
Haha, 42 wounds on a Castellan if I get Abaddon rerolls and Death Hex off. Which won't happen, but that's some firepower.

54 shots (no stratagem) and Abby get 42 wounds on Ravagers, blowing the usual 3 out of the sky. Might lose the long game anyway but that'd be pretty satisfying.

 Ap0k wrote:
Are you talking about newblits or oldblits?

Oblits need to shoot twice vs DE because if you don't kill as many Ravagers as you can on the drop, your chances of getting another chance to kill them (with those units) are incredibly slim (likely because you're dead, occasionally because they can just fly away outside your range and you'll never get back into range).

The point isn't about 'what do these factions have that you need to shoot twice'. The point is 'These factions exist in the meta, and as a result you will likely face them, and if you're facing them using a unit that is only worth its points when it gets to Cacophony, then you lose, which means you can't put those units in a list because their feasibility depends on their ability to make use of a stratagem'.

Oblits need Cacophony to clear out threats to their survivability to give them a chance of surviving the turn after the drop. If you can't get Cacophony off, you throw away a, currently, 195 point unit with minimal impact, and that's kinda a big deal.

Okay, and then what happens when you don't face Dark Eldar?
Also Oblits really don't need to fire twice against Cult units. Hell, even against Dark Eldar you're fine because you're not paying for a bunch of extra AP you don't need.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:
36 shots? Pfft... 72 since I have 9 Obliterators.

That'll be half my points or thereabouts but it'll be a fun drop. Commencing mathhammer.

Edit:
Haha, 42 wounds on a Castellan if I get Abaddon rerolls and Death Hex off. Which won't happen, but that's some firepower.

Hell, you don't even need Death Hex for the most part.

 Insectum7 wrote:
36 shots? Pfft... 72 since I have 9 Obliterators.

That'll be half my points or thereabouts but it'll be a fun drop. Commencing mathhammer.

The biggest problem is just catching bad rolls on the gun. S9? Yes! AP2 or 3! Awesome! Damage 1...ugg

With T5 and W4 these guys will be obnoxious to kill under a tree if you can get FNP on them, too. But then you only have 24".

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
36 shots? Pfft... 72 since I have 9 Obliterators.

That'll be half my points or thereabouts but it'll be a fun drop. Commencing mathhammer.

The biggest problem is just catching bad rolls on the gun. S9? Yes! AP2 or 3! Awesome! Damage 1...ugg

With T5 and W4 these guys will be obnoxious to kill under a tree if you can get FNP on them, too. But then you only have 24".

Yeah I just used the average rolls. Good candidate for the reroll strat though.

As much as I hate Chaos, I like the look of these models and the idea of a “living weapon”

However, I hate the randomness of the fleshmetal gun. Wish they would have given it three different stat lines and let the player choose which to use (with maaaaybe a limitation you can’t choose the same stat line twice in a row). Something like an anti-mob light profile (like a hurricane bolter), a harder hitting profile to use against MEQ (like an assault cannon) and an Anti-tank profile (like a Lascannon).

 Stormonu wrote:
As much as I hate Chaos, I like the look of these models and the idea of a “living weapon”

However, I hate the randomness of the fleshmetal gun. Wish they would have given it three different stat lines and let the player choose which to use (with maaaaybe a limitation you can’t choose the same stat line twice in a row). Something like an anti-mob light profile (like a hurricane bolter), a harder hitting profile to use against MEQ (like an assault cannon) and an Anti-tank profile (like a Lascannon).

I quite like that idea. For their current points, I'd add "Twin" to each of those profiles

For the amount of points we are paying for these guys I'm actually thinking that they should allow the user to allocate stat points from a fixed pool of points to increase/decrease the weapon's various stats

For instance their weapons can have a base stat of 4 shots, S4, AP0, Damage 1 and every time they shoot the player is given a total of 6 points to add to the stats in any combination they want (with caps on specific stats obviously)

That makes them less random, extremely flexible, and perfectly reflects their ability to morph weapons to suit the situation

I would gladly pay 120pt per model for that

 Continuity wrote:
For the amount of points we are paying for these guys I'm actually thinking that they should allow the user to allocate stat points from a fixed pool of points to increase/decrease the weapon's various stats

For instance their weapons can have a base stat of 4 shots, S4, AP0, Damage 1 and every time they shoot the player is given a total of 6 points to add to the stats in any combination they want (with caps on specific stats obviously)

That makes them less random, extremely flexible, and perfectly reflects their ability to morph weapons to suit the situation

I would gladly pay 120pt per model for that

I'd thought about that too, but I think that may be too fiddly in the middle of a game, prone to people "umm"ing and "erm"ing over where to put the last point or two. Or someone just using the same exact optimized stat each round. I really do think "choice of three" is the best option, and randumb is the worst.

 Continuity wrote:
For the amount of points we are paying for these guys I'm actually thinking that they should allow the user to allocate stat points from a fixed pool of points to increase/decrease the weapon's various stats

For instance their weapons can have a base stat of 4 shots, S4, AP0, Damage 1 and every time they shoot the player is given a total of 6 points to add to the stats in any combination they want (with caps on specific stats obviously)

That makes them less random, extremely flexible, and perfectly reflects their ability to morph weapons to suit the situation

I would gladly pay 120pt per model for that

How in the world is that better than the average Assault 6 S8 AP-2 D2? Your consistency leads to a what is usually a far worse weapon.

I think at this point the points cost will be the main factor. It's looking more and more like 2 will cost what 3 used to, which IMHO is a solid nerf despite 2 operating similar to three, but we will see what it specifically is.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Continuity wrote:
For the amount of points we are paying for these guys I'm actually thinking that they should allow the user to allocate stat points from a fixed pool of points to increase/decrease the weapon's various stats

For instance their weapons can have a base stat of 4 shots, S4, AP0, Damage 1 and every time they shoot the player is given a total of 6 points to add to the stats in any combination they want (with caps on specific stats obviously)

That makes them less random, extremely flexible, and perfectly reflects their ability to morph weapons to suit the situation

I would gladly pay 120pt per model for that

How in the world is that better than the average Assault 6 S8 AP-2 D2? Your consistency leads to a what is usually a far worse weapon.

Because it's meant to be an example to represent a design philosophy, not a set-in-stone rule, I can easily make the allocation pool larger if it suits your fancy. The goal here is to reflect the flexible nature of Obliterators' weapons accurately while still being fun to play instead of the current random rolling nonsense with the gun being strictly better or worse due to luck.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
With T5 and W4 these guys will be obnoxious to kill under a tree if you can get FNP on them, too. But then you only have 24".

Can't get FnP without Slaanesh. Malefic has locked Obliterators into a Slaaneshian paradigm. I don't really see any value in other implementations now. You maybe carry two squads since Cursed Earth and Infernal Power are 6" bubbles.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Continuity wrote:
Because it's meant to be an example to represent a design philosophy, not a set-in-stone rule, I can easily make the allocation pool larger if it suits your fancy. The goal here is to reflect the flexible nature of Obliterators' weapons accurately while still being fun to play instead of the current random rolling nonsense with the gun being strictly better or worse due to luck.

Gaze of Fate and Command re-roll will largely eliminate the variability of the squad you intend to buff for alpha strike.

 Continuity wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Continuity wrote:
For the amount of points we are paying for these guys I'm actually thinking that they should allow the user to allocate stat points from a fixed pool of points to increase/decrease the weapon's various stats

For instance their weapons can have a base stat of 4 shots, S4, AP0, Damage 1 and every time they shoot the player is given a total of 6 points to add to the stats in any combination they want (with caps on specific stats obviously)

That makes them less random, extremely flexible, and perfectly reflects their ability to morph weapons to suit the situation

I would gladly pay 120pt per model for that

How in the world is that better than the average Assault 6 S8 AP-2 D2? Your consistency leads to a what is usually a far worse weapon.

Because it's meant to be an example to represent a design philosophy, not a set-in-stone rule, I can easily make the allocation pool larger if it suits your fancy. The goal here is to reflect the flexible nature of Obliterators' weapons accurately while still being fun to play instead of the current random rolling nonsense with the gun being strictly better or worse due to luck.

If you're going to go this route on design philosophy it'd be quite a lot faster on the tabletop to just go back to the 3e-7e rules and give them a couple of different profiles representing different groups of weapons.

 Continuity wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Continuity wrote:
For the amount of points we are paying for these guys I'm actually thinking that they should allow the user to allocate stat points from a fixed pool of points to increase/decrease the weapon's various stats

For instance their weapons can have a base stat of 4 shots, S4, AP0, Damage 1 and every time they shoot the player is given a total of 6 points to add to the stats in any combination they want (with caps on specific stats obviously)

That makes them less random, extremely flexible, and perfectly reflects their ability to morph weapons to suit the situation

I would gladly pay 120pt per model for that

How in the world is that better than the average Assault 6 S8 AP-2 D2? Your consistency leads to a what is usually a far worse weapon.

Because it's meant to be an example to represent a design philosophy, not a set-in-stone rule, I can easily make the allocation pool larger if it suits your fancy. The goal here is to reflect the flexible nature of Obliterators' weapons accurately while still being fun to play instead of the current random rolling nonsense with the gun being strictly better or worse due to luck.

They weren't very flexible in the first place. Out of the 6-8 weapons you could choose, you would only ever choose 2-3 of them. The same ones, at that.
The new profile is randumb, but the unit functioned a lot better since 8th's codex was released, and this update really does make them better.

I also like that you can give them a reroll on the weapon with the new malefic powers.WC7 might be too high for that and there are other contenders in the discipline of course, but if you go full daemonkin with possessed, spawn and Oblits I could see that power as a nice supporter.

From a game mechanics stand point, it really slows things down to be rolling 3 distinct dice in addition to everything you normally roll for attacking.

The point of the random weapon stats is that GW doesn't want Obliterators just sitting back and always able to put the ideal weapon on the ideal target. The limited range had already partially addressed that, but even at a 24" range fixed options would still allow a level of reliability GW simply doesn't want.

What's frustrating is that it contradicts the lore and their ability to summon forth these weapons they previously absorbed.

While some would disagree, the fleshmetal weapon performs better in some ways than the options we previously had. In general we lost reliability, long range, and the ability to flame/auto hit. Instead we have many more shots.

GW wants this unit stomping around advancing on our enemies. I think the only way we can reconcile GW's design goal and our desire reliability, is if instead of being a random everything weapon, it worked like a Conversion Beamer in reverse, reliably and consistently becoming more powerful the closer you are to a target.

For example:
48"-24", Str 7, AP 1, Dmg 1, Heavy 6
23"-12", Str 8, AP 2, Dmg 2, Heavy 4
11"-1", Str 9, AP 3, Dmg 3, Heavy 2

I consider my Grav/Hurricane Dev Cent's to be pretty overpriced at 78 ppm, so "overpriced" feels like quite the understatement in regards to Oblits being over 100 ppm.

Sure, they get a decent melee-profile, +1 W and a 5++, but still.
I'm not sure in what world an Obliterator is worth the same as a decked out Helbrute.

Shame, because the model's are pretty good.

 MinscS2 wrote:
I consider my Grav/Hurricane Dev Cent's to be pretty overpriced at 78 ppm, so "overpriced" feels like quite the understatement in regards to Oblits being over 100 ppm.

Sure, they get a decent melee-profile, +1 W and a 5++, but still.
I'm not sure in what world an Obliterator is worth the same as a decked out Helbrute.

Shame, because the model's are pretty good.

Cents atm are in a rough space, now we got Chaos cents eeeeeermm i mean Oblits more expensive then cents.....
Yay.

 MinscS2 wrote:
I consider my Grav/Hurricane Dev Cent's to be pretty overpriced at 78 ppm, so "overpriced" feels like quite the understatement in regards to Oblits being over 100 ppm.

Sure, they get a decent melee-profile, +1 W and a 5++, but still.
I'm not sure in what world an Obliterator is worth the same as a decked out Helbrute.

Shame, because the model's are pretty good.

Not quite the same kind of fire power though.

An Obliterator is carrying almost the equivalent of a rapid fire BC.

A Hurricane/Las Cent is 100 points AND one less wound AND no 5++ AND no melee weapon.

The price for these Oblits is more than fair.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 MinscS2 wrote:
I consider my Grav/Hurricane Dev Cent's to be pretty overpriced at 78 ppm, so "overpriced" feels like quite the understatement in regards to Oblits being over 100 ppm.

Sure, they get a decent melee-profile, +1 W and a 5++, but still.
I'm not sure in what world an Obliterator is worth the same as a decked out Helbrute.

Shame, because the model's are pretty good.

Not quite the same kind of fire power though.

An Obliterator is carrying almost the equivalent of a rapid fire BC.

A Hurricane/Las Cent is 100 points AND one less wound AND no 5++ AND no melee weapon.

The price for these Oblits is more than fair.

Almost the equivalent... If you're lucky.

Sometimes, you get an autocannon with 6 shots, but D1.
Other times, you get a Lascannon with D3 instead of d6.
While, on average, the guns are pretty good, it adds yet more points of failure to the process.

As for a 5++... On a 2+ Infantry model, who cares? You need AP-4 (AP-5 in cover) to make it matter.

 JNAProductions wrote:


Almost the equivalent... If you're lucky.

Sometimes, you get an autocannon with 6 shots, but D1.
Other times, you get a Lascannon with D3 instead of d6.
While, on average, the guns are pretty good, it adds yet more points of failure to the process.

As for a 5++... On a 2+ Infantry model, who cares? You need AP-4 (AP-5 in cover) to make it matter.

Yes, but that can easily be made a 4++. Things like disintegrators care about that a lot.

The average is battle cannon stats - rerolls are prime for such an impactful unit and now it's possible to get 3 rerolls on them - gaze, new spell, and command reroll. Whether that is wise or not needs to be seen.

 aka_mythos wrote:
What's frustrating is that it contradicts the lore and their ability to summon forth these weapons they previously absorbed.

Out of all the things they have done to ravage the lore in 8th edition and that is what frustrates you?

 Daedalus81 wrote:


An Obliterator is carrying almost the equivalent of a rapid fire BC.

A Hurricane/Las Cent is 100 points AND one less wound AND no 5++ AND no melee weapon.

The price for these Oblits is more than fair.

Perhaps both these units are overpriced then

I give up trying to explain how terrible these guys are going to be.

Nothing will convince some of you folks until you play with them yourselves and see your 360~pt unit vaporised or perpetually trapped in combat on the drop.

For casual games? Crack on. They'll always be good against people who don't build optimized lists, or don't play (reasonably) optimally. They'll be a blast, as they always have been, when they can get Cacophony off or when they can shoot at targets that don't have invulns/minuses to hit, and they're a lot of fun when they roll well.

Just don't kid yourselves that you're making an optimized choice.

 Ap0k wrote:
I give up trying to explain how terrible these guys are going to be.

Nothing will convince some of you folks until you play with them yourselves and see your 360~pt unit vaporised or perpetually trapped in combat on the drop.

For casual games? Crack on. They'll always be good against people who don't build optimized lists, or don't play (reasonably) optimally. They'll be a blast, as they always have been, when they can get Cacophony off or when they can shoot at targets that don't have invulns/minuses to hit, and they're a lot of fun when they roll well.

Just don't kid yourselves that you're making an optimized choice.

All my lists are medium-optimization at worst and I'm telling you the new Oblits are fine.

Four wounds is pretty helpful against some match ups since 3D and lucky d3D weapons don't immediately take out 4 shots.
+1T is pretty helpful against many infantry and anti-tank weapons since wounding is -1 for S4, S8/9. S7 stuff is usually not D4+.
Like terminators the 5++ is limited but not 100% useless and didn't change anyways.

Sure, one full squad of 3 will cost notably more but also give 50% more firepower on the turn they come in on. Endless cacophony is still great on them, but if Vect comes out the DE players is likely down 4CP vs maybe 2.

Randumb is not ideal, I don't like it, and at worst they're way overpriced for a the offense. Thing is they aren't that fragile. Killing them will take heat off of other units.

As for the helbrute comparison. Newblits get 6 shots while a dedicated ranged helbrute gets 3. Brute has better range but penalty for moving or eating up CP. Brute also takes full damage from 5/6D hits that wouldn't spill over for oblits. Oblits get to buff 3 of them in 1 strat like VotLW or EC. More shots and strat milage, less defense, CC weapon that doesn't take away from ranged. I don't think the change is strictly bad.

Oh and not using EC doesn't mean they don't get the base shots. It's certainly less pts efficient but vect doesn't negate them entirely, just half.

 Ap0k wrote:
I give up trying to explain how terrible these guys are going to be.

Nothing will convince some of you folks until you play with them yourselves and see your 360~pt unit vaporised or perpetually trapped in combat on the drop.

For casual games? Crack on. They'll always be good against people who don't build optimized lists, or don't play (reasonably) optimally. They'll be a blast, as they always have been, when they can get Cacophony off or when they can shoot at targets that don't have invulns/minuses to hit, and they're a lot of fun when they roll well.

Just don't kid yourselves that you're making an optimized choice.

*Godfathers Blessing+Fleshy Abundence+Sacrifice

Nurgle Oblits will be a bitch to remove from anywhere.

*Weaver of fates+Cursed Earth

Tzeentch Oblits will have a 2+/3++ making them difficult to kill in general.

*Delightful Agonies+Cursed Earth

Slaanesh Oblits will have a 2+/4++/5+++ save.

Khorne players should get more spells :p

Offensively they all get access to prescience and infernal power which means they can be hitting on 2s rerolling.

Tzeentch players can cast flickering flames and will be wounding everything below T8 on 2s rerolling 1s.

Slaanesh Players can have them shoot twice. Bringing them to 36 shots.

Nurgle Players don't have to do a bunch of damage because they will have a full squad of Oblits at the end of the game.

Tzeentch and Slaanesh players can down a Castellian in 1 turn with proper support.

 Ap0k wrote:
I give up trying to explain how terrible these guys are going to be.

Nothing will convince some of you folks until you play with them yourselves and see your 360~pt unit vaporised or perpetually trapped in combat on the drop.

For casual games? Crack on. They'll always be good against people who don't build optimized lists, or don't play (reasonably) optimally. They'll be a blast, as they always have been, when they can get Cacophony off or when they can shoot at targets that don't have invulns/minuses to hit, and they're a lot of fun when they roll well.

Just don't kid yourselves that you're making an optimized choice.

They're a scissors that will meet paper from time to time - that's the nature of a competitive setting. For the most part, they will do quite well and god help the opponent for when they can't deal with them or they whiff when trying to get rid of them. And if they focus a whole army to take them out, well congratulations you've invested far more than their points to remove them - now deal with the other 1800 points shooting back at you unharmed.

 NurglesR0T wrote:

 Ap0k wrote:
I give up trying to explain how terrible these guys are going to be.

Nothing will convince some of you folks until you play with them yourselves and see your 360~pt unit vaporised or perpetually trapped in combat on the drop.

For casual games? Crack on. They'll always be good against people who don't build optimized lists, or don't play (reasonably) optimally. They'll be a blast, as they always have been, when they can get Cacophony off or when they can shoot at targets that don't have invulns/minuses to hit, and they're a lot of fun when they roll well.

Just don't kid yourselves that you're making an optimized choice.

They're a scissors that will meet paper from time to time - that's the nature of a competitive setting. For the most part, they will do quite well and god help the opponent for when they can't deal with them or they whiff when trying to get rid of them. And if they focus a whole army to take them out, well congratulations you've invested far more than their points to remove them - now deal with the other 1800 points shooting back at you unharmed.

1,655 points.