"Warhammer 40,000 is in a pretty good place" - GW

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**Reemule**

I love the primaris. I really like that they are flipping people’s expectations. Sniper units as Heavy support, and Heavy weapons as Fast Attack, along with Stealthy in bright blue armor. And they just look good.

**Xenomancers**

Brutus_Apex wrote:
I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again.

8th Ed is just as bad as 7th but in the opposite direction.

The rules are overly simple to the point of being immersion breaking, and provide tons of wtf moments in the game. At the same time they are counter intuitive for no reason (I’m looking at you dice roll modifiers) and a logistical nightmare to keep track of.

Psychic phase is boring and predictable

The cover system is broken and needs more than half a page to fully flesh out this idea

The morale phase is so useless and boring it might as well not exist. Could have just kept the old system but not have every army immune to leadership like they did in the past.

Command points, good idea. Poorly implemented. Command points should be generated throughout the game by capturing objectives and destroying enemy units. Stratagems should be one use only.

Buff auras are a terrible idea that exacerbated the issues people originally had with Death Stars.

Killing off the independent character rules was unnecessary. Now we just have to deal with dumb as feth targeting restrictions.

I don’t know who decided to make dice modifiers work the way they do but it’s needlessly convoluted. It makes no sense to do it the way they did.

Doing away with USR is the worst possible way to organize a game. Now we just have pages and pages of the same rule written slightly differently for no reason at all. From a logistical stand point this makes no sense.

Then we have Primaris ruining the lore of 40k, they should have been left on the cutting room floor with AoS. Just pure garbage through and through.

I agree with everything you said but the final line is just your opinion and I disagree with that. Primaris are what marines always should have been. Tiny marines I always disliked.

**Vaktathi**

The Primaris models are great. It's the fluff behind them that's awful and painfully hamfisted

**Slayer-Fan123**

I do actually agree with the point about the Psychic Phase, because all the offensive powers are just variations of Smite or inflicting Mortal Wounds. With the new AP and wounding system, it would have been good to translate some of those old powers and psychic tables for 8th, so that your Psychic dealer isn't stuck fighting with another one for casting a power.

**Drudge Dreadnought**

Brutus_Apex wrote:
I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again.

8th Ed is just as bad as 7th but in the opposite direction.

The rules are overly simple to the point of being immersion breaking, and provide tons of wtf moments in the game. At the same time they are counter intuitive for no reason (I’m looking at you dice roll modifiers) and a logistical nightmare to keep track of.

Psychic phase is boring and predictable

The cover system is broken and needs more than half a page to fully flesh out this idea

The morale phase is so useless and boring it might as well not exist. Could have just kept the old system but not have every army immune to leadership like they did in the past.

Command points, good idea. Poorly implemented. Command points should be generated throughout the game by capturing objectives and destroying enemy units. Stratagems should be one use only.

Buff auras are a terrible idea that exacerbated the issues people originally had with Death Stars.

Killing off the independent character rules was unnecessary. Now we just have to deal with dumb as feth targeting restrictions.

I don’t know who decided to make dice modifiers work the way they do but it’s needlessly convoluted. It makes no sense to do it the way they did.

Doing away with USR is the worst possible way to organize a game. Now we just have pages and pages of the same rule written slightly differently for no reason at all. From a logistical stand point this makes no sense.

Then we have Primaris ruining the lore of 40k, they should have been left on the cutting room floor with AoS. Just pure garbage through and through.

Yeah. I find myself wishing for 5th edition but with warlord traits, relics, and stratagems.

**Wayniac**

The loss of USRs is the silliest thing to be because that's how you WANT the rules to be. Consistent. "Fly" should mean Fly no matter what it's on, not Fly that does one thing for a model with bird wings and another for a model with rotting wings.

The problem with USRs was there were too many of them. The concept itself is how you should end up designing the game. A re-roll ability should be the same across the entire game (and you could still keep the keyword part), not potentially 6 different variations that could be identical except for the name or could be different.

Their intent seems to be by having everything isolated it means they could change the ability for one faction without it impacting every faction.

**Voss**

TwinPoleTheory wrote:
Was anyone really expecting them to say that the game needed work? That they had a number of concerns about the state of the game?

Of course they said the game is in a good place, this is the only thing they could say, no PR or Marketing douche is going to let them come out and actually state anything meaningful.

Except companies do say things like this from time to time (Bioware literally just did so today or yesterday, for example). Quite reasonably so as well. Compared to years past, yeah, 40k is in a fairly reasonable state. Had they made the statement during 7th, I would have laughed.

Although I think there's are rules they could fix (and vastly cut down the number of dice rolls) and general directions I wish they'd move away from (spamming books with trivial amounts of rule changes, like Vigilius and chapter approved) it does generally seem healthier. It certainly is from a corporate POV.

**Mr Morden**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I do actually agree with the point about the Psychic Phase, because all the offensive powers are just variations of Smite or inflicting Mortal Wounds. With the new AP and wounding system, it would have been good to translate some of those old powers and psychic tables for 8th, so that your Psychic dealer isn't stuck fighting with another one for casting a power.

Disagree about the Psychic Phase - going back to previous versions is much better than that travesty .

The loss of USRs is the silliest thing to be because that's how you WANT the rules to be. Consistent. "Fly" should mean Fly no matter what it's on, not Fly that does one thing for a model with bird wings and another for a model with rotting wings.

If they had released datacards for all units then this would be much better as it would always be in front of you

**bullyboy**

Excommunicatus wrote:
The Imperium is the protagonist in GW's eyes.

What 40K needs is equal support being given to the antagonists.

Wait, you are actually seeing the size of this chaos release, no?

**Excommunicatus**

Antagonists. Plural.

**Arachnofiend**

Yeah, I think this Chaos release might actually be the single largest faction release of 8th edition so far. GW's been pretty good at spreading the love around over the past couple years to be honest, even the factions that haven't gotten big releases have at least gotten small character model updates. Gripes about GW releasing Space Marines and only Space Marines are mostly a holdover from the decisions of a guy who is no longer making decisions for the company. :v

**Danny slag**

Over half the armies miniature lines are over a decade out of date or finecast, basically anything that's not space marines.

Every game is basically already decided before the game starts by the army being brought. Anything that's not Ynnari or imperial guard soup is laughed at for even bothering to show up.

They're doing this "codex v 2.0" thing but are not using that to fix any of the rule or balance issues in the codex. WTF is the point of releasing updated codecies if they're not going to use that to fix them. Proving GW has absolutely no clue what's wrong with their game, or even that there is so many glaring issues with it. Nor do they have the desire to fix these problems.

GW rules make it painfully obvious their rules team has no idea how to write rules and has no overall direction guidelines, or experience playing; but instead each write rules in a vacuum oblivious to how the game actually works or what other rules are, or many times even how the interactions in their own rules work. For example they released a 'daemonkin' mini-codex, but forgot that due to how they set up keywords you can't actually build a daemonkin army. Or how some codex writers think faction traits should apply to all units in the army, some think they should only apply to infantry, and there's no rhyme or reason.

Frankly GW makes hands down the most beautiful miniatures and i love painting them, but the rules for the game are atrocious and it boggles my mind that they haven't realized that a more balanced game will increase miniature sales.

**Wayniac**

Danny slag wrote:
Over half the armies miniature lines are over a decade out of date or finecast, basically anything that's not space marines.

Every game is basically already decided before the game starts by the army being brought. Anything that's not Ynnari or imperial guard soup is laughed at for even bothering to show up.

They're doing this "codex v 2.0" thing but are not using that to fix any of the rule or balance issues in the codex. WTF is the point of releasing updated codecies if they're not going to use that to fix them. Proving GW has absolutely no clue what's wrong with their game, or even that there is so many glaring issues with it. Nor do they have the desire to fix these problems.

Frankly GW makes hands down the most beautiful miniatures and i love painting them, but the rules for the game are atrocious and it boggles my mind that they haven't realized that a more balanced game will increase miniature sales.

I think any chance of that happening died when 8th let them double their profits (or was it triple?) since that showed that they could do the bare minimum and become more profitable than ever before with the bare minimum.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Mr Morden wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I do actually agree with the point about the Psychic Phase, because all the offensive powers are just variations of Smite or inflicting Mortal Wounds. With the new AP and wounding system, it would have been good to translate some of those old powers and psychic tables for 8th, so that your Psychic dealer isn't stuck fighting with another one for casting a power.

Disagree about the Psychic Phase - going back to previous versions is much better than that travesty .

The loss of USRs is the silliest thing to be because that's how you WANT the rules to be. Consistent. "Fly" should mean Fly no matter what it's on, not Fly that does one thing for a model with bird wings and another for a model with rotting wings.

If they had released datacards for all units then this would be much better as it would always be in front of you

I don't think you understood my post.

**Danny slag**

Wayniac wrote:
Danny slag wrote:
Over half the armies miniature lines are over a decade out of date or finecast, basically anything that's not space marines.

Every game is basically already decided before the game starts by the army being brought. Anything that's not Ynnari or imperial guard soup is laughed at for even bothering to show up.

They're doing this "codex v 2.0" thing but are not using that to fix any of the rule or balance issues in the codex. WTF is the point of releasing updated codecies if they're not going to use that to fix them. Proving GW has absolutely no clue what's wrong with their game, or even that there is so many glaring issues with it. Nor do they have the desire to fix these problems.

Frankly GW makes hands down the most beautiful miniatures and i love painting them, but the rules for the game are atrocious and it boggles my mind that they haven't realized that a more balanced game will increase miniature sales.

I think any chance of that happening died when 8th let them double their profits (or was it triple?) since that showed that they could do the bare minimum and become more profitable than ever before with the bare minimum.

True, that's late-stage capitalism. Cut as many corners as possible to make the highest profit margin without caring about long term viability. Companies don't care about quality products because executives cycle companies every 2-5 years.

**ccs**

Horst wrote:
Karol wrote:
The good news is that Warhammer 40,000 is in a pretty good place at the moment, so there won’t be any seismic changes, just a handful of balancing tweaks.

I don't know what to think about it. But this looks like GW will never fix GK :(
Well I guess they can't get feedback from tournaments and playtesters, when no one plays GK.

To be entirely fair to GW, GK cannot be fixed by an FAQ.

Oh bs. If you can make an army worse with a FAQ etc you can also make it better.

**TwinPoleTheory**

Voss wrote:
Except companies do say things like this from time to time (Bioware literally just did so today or yesterday, for example). Quite reasonably so as well. Compared to years past, yeah, 40k is in a fairly reasonable state. Had they made the statement during 7th, I would have laughed.

Although I think there's are rules they could fix (and vastly cut down the number of dice rolls) and general directions I wish they'd move away from (spamming books with trivial amounts of rule changes, like Vigilius and chapter approved) it does generally seem healthier. It certainly is from a corporate POV.

Yes, well, when you have a trainwreck (*cough*Anthem*cough*), ignoring it is not an option. I would call that the exception that proves the rule.

**Danny slag**

Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
Brutus_Apex wrote:
I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again.

8th Ed is just as bad as 7th but in the opposite direction.

The rules are overly simple to the point of being immersion breaking, and provide tons of wtf moments in the game. At the same time they are counter intuitive for no reason (I’m looking at you dice roll modifiers)

Despite this being a relatively small sounding gripe, this is hands down the absolute best example of what's wrong with GW rules.
What's glaringly obvious is that no one at GW bothered to think about when modifiers apply, because none of them are actual game designers, they're fiction writers. So when the community of players started asking, if you'll recall this was answered in an FAQ, someone at GW just decided this is how modifiers should be handled. They didn't sit down and talk it through, they didn't have enough knowledge of the game or experience playing it to understand how asinine their ruling was. They just randomly picked a way because to them either way was just as good as another. And now we're stuck with a wonky modifier system because someone who doesn't understand rules interactions or game design made an off-handed decision.

GW needs to hire a game designer and technical writers team who oversees all rules. I've been saying this for years but the skills and experience needed to write a good rule system is totally different than the skills needed to write a fiction book about space marines shooting orks.

**Thargrim**

I wouldn't agree with that. Sounds to me like they are enjoying the stank of their own farts. While 8th started out okay, it quickly became just as bloated and messy as it was before. And the new lore, man...where to even begin. All sorts of ham fisted cringey stuff. 40k no longer feels like it once did, it just doesn't seem as cool to me anymore. Unlike other games like Bolt Action 2nd edition which stabilized after a short while. 40k is in a constant state of change and shifting balance. And then they start throwing in beta rules and points changes all the time. It's like paying hundreds of dollars to play a game that is a permanently in beta phase.

**Arachnofiend**

Thargrim wrote:
I wouldn't agree with that. Sounds to me like they are enjoying the stank of their own farts. While 8th started out okay, it quickly became just as bloated and messy as it was before. And the new lore, man...where to even begin. All sorts of ham fisted cringey stuff. 40k no longer feels like it once did, it just doesn't seem as cool to me anymore. Unlike other games like Bolt Action 2nd edition which stabilized after a short while. 40k is in a constant state of change and shifting balance. And then they start throwing in beta rules and points changes all the time. It's like paying hundreds of dollars to play a game that is a permanently in beta phase.

You realize that if it wasn't for this "constant state of change and shifting balance" we'd probably still be dealing with conscripts and brimstone horrors flooding the board, right?

**Danny slag**

Thargrim wrote:
I wouldn't agree with that. Sounds to me like they are enjoying the stank of their own farts. While 8th started out okay, it quickly became just as bloated and messy as it was before. And the new lore, man...where to even begin. All sorts of ham fisted cringey stuff. 40k no longer feels like it once did, it just doesn't seem as cool to me anymore. Unlike other games like Bolt Action 2nd edition which stabilized after a short while. 40k is in a constant state of change and shifting balance. And then they start throwing in beta rules and points changes all the time. It's like paying hundreds of dollars to play a game that is a permanently in beta phase.

Which wouldn't be so bad if the changes they made had anything at all to do with the feedback from players. it's mind boggling how they say they're listening to players, then they ignore 100% of the issues raised by players and instead release totally goofy changes that leave every player scratching their heads wondering wtf that came from.

How long now have players been saying it's messed up that some factions rules apply to every unit, some apply just to infantry, some apply to everything except certain units with no rhyme or reason.

Or how most of the community hates soup, so GW releases a fix to soup that literally anyone who's spent even 35 seconds with the rule book would know didn't do anything at all about soup. It's like GW doesn't even know their own rules.

I've honestly no idea how they can be so awful at what they do, even by sheer accident you'd think they'd occasionally not miss the mark.

**Not Online!!!**

Danny slag wrote:
Thargrim wrote:
I wouldn't agree with that. Sounds to me like they are enjoying the stank of their own farts. While 8th started out okay, it quickly became just as bloated and messy as it was before. And the new lore, man...where to even begin. All sorts of ham fisted cringey stuff. 40k no longer feels like it once did, it just doesn't seem as cool to me anymore. Unlike other games like Bolt Action 2nd edition which stabilized after a short while. 40k is in a constant state of change and shifting balance. And then they start throwing in beta rules and points changes all the time. It's like paying hundreds of dollars to play a game that is a permanently in beta phase.

Which wouldn't be so bad if the changes they made had anything at all to do with the feedback from players. it's mind boggling how they say they're listening to players, then they ignore 100% of the issues raised by players and instead release totally goofy changes that leave every player scratching their heads wondering wtf that came from.

How long now have players been saying it's messed up that some factions rules apply to every unit, some apply just to infantry, some apply to everything except certain units with no rhyme or reason.

Or how most of the community hates soup, so GW releases a fix to soup that literally anyone who's spent even 35 seconds with the rule book would know didn't do anything at all about soup. It's like GW doesn't even know their own rules.

I've honestly no idea how they can be so awful at what they do, even by sheer accident you'd think they'd occasionally not miss the mark.

I mind soup but mostly because it invites abuse especially in the stratagem and cp Departement.
However their idea of selling as many minidexes and campaign books to people who want to play the game forces these (imo rather incomplete) armies to a point were allies are the only option to play the game.

**Crimson**

Danny slag wrote:

What's glaringly obvious is that no one at GW bothered to think about when modifiers apply, because none of them are actual game designers, they're fiction writers. So when the community of players started asking, if you'll recall this was answered in an FAQ, someone at GW just decided this is how modifiers should be handled. They didn't sit down and talk it through, they didn't have enough knowledge of the game or experience playing it to understand how asinine their ruling was. They just randomly picked a way because to them either way was just as good as another.

So you were there then?

**drbored**

I think that someday they'll release 9th edition

and a year after they released it they'll say

"Warhammer 9th edition is in a great place right now"

despite 1/4th of the factions being too powerful and 1/4th of the factions struggling to play even casual games and the rest having a slew of balance and narrative issues throughout.

And this system will repeat itself until the end of time.

**CapRichard**

Overall?
Yeah.

**Vaktathi**

Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

Yeah. I find myself wishing for 5th edition but with warlord traits, relics, and stratagems.

Every time I find myself wishing for this, I'm reminded of how much I hated 5E while actually playing it

5E was definitively better than many other editions, but there were also some really bad fundamental flaws with 5E as well. It's the only game I've ever come across where bringing more firepower to bear can result in fewer casualties to the enemy.

That said, it was probably the best edition for the basic MEQ unit.

TwinPoleTheory wrote:
Voss wrote:
Except companies do say things like this from time to time (Bioware literally just did so today or yesterday, for example). Quite reasonably so as well. Compared to years past, yeah, 40k is in a fairly reasonable state. Had they made the statement during 7th, I would have laughed.

Although I think there's are rules they could fix (and vastly cut down the number of dice rolls) and general directions I wish they'd move away from (spamming books with trivial amounts of rule changes, like Vigilius and chapter approved) it does generally seem healthier. It certainly is from a corporate POV.

Yes, well, when you have a trainwreck (*cough*Anthem*cough*), ignoring it is not an option. I would call that the exception that proves the rule.

Indeed, and at this point Bioware is scoring 1 for 4 in terms of not shipping something fundamentally borked in a big way over the last 7 years, anything that comes from Mr. Hudson I assume is made up on the spot without any connection to reality given both past and recent performances

drbored wrote:
I think that someday they'll release 9th edition

and a year after they released it they'll say

"Warhammer 9th edition is in a great place right now"

despite 1/4th of the factions being too powerful and 1/4th of the factions struggling to play even casual games and the rest having a slew of balance and narrative issues throughout.

And this system will repeat itself until the end of time.

Seems about on par for every edition

**Spoletta**

Xenomancers wrote:
Galef wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
LOL - Some people get it. The game is making tons of money so it's in a good place. Balance be damned.
To be fair, it couldn't be doing so well money-wise if it wasn't doing something good game-wise.
Are there still balance issues? You betcha, but it's far more balanced than so, so many of the prior editions.

I think the biggest issue people struggle with is that they really hoped 8E was going to be the end-all, be-all edition for balance.
And honestly, I feel that is always going to result in a let-down. There are just too many factions/models and rules to ever have an air-tight balance 40K edition.

But 8E has certainly made it closer than any prior edition and continues to tweak for said balance. Enough people recognize this that the sales have been positively impacted.
Ergo, 40K is in a pretty good place

-

Well all we really want is an honest attempt. Infantry at 4 ppm while a termagant and a conscript is 4ppm is NOT an honest attempt. DW ammo is not an honest attempt. I agree the game is probably the most balanced it has been except perhaps the prevalence of double moves and free actions (possibly the most busted stuff to ever exist in this game) saying your game is more balanced than previous editions of 40k isn't saying too much. Their tweaks IMO have done more harm than good. The game was the most fun during index 40k.

**Galas**

Tbh they arent wrong. Fron a middle tier (Not casual) perspective the game has never been that balanced. Not thats saying much, the bar is very low, but every codex is up to date and even codex like grey knights or space marines can compete in tournaments and have a good time.

The power disparity still exist but everything is more towards the middle than in previous edition were even in casual metas half the armies couldnt even put a chance against the top ones because many books were 3-5 years old if not more.

**Darsath**

I feel like I'm in the same boat as Brutus_Apex. I don't think the game is in a good spot as it stands atm. However, I feel like they're saying this with the changes from the FAQ in mind, so I can only judge after it comes out. We all know they're doing a big 40k release this summer anyways, so they don't want to undercut the leadup to it.

**auticus**

Games workshop has proven time and time again that its costumer base will shell out a ton of money for busted rules and do it happily.

AOS, 40k... it doesn't matter. Its fan base is happy with meh balance and encourages rotating your armies if you want to play a game to have a chance at winning.

Its really the company catering to its very large and bloated consumer base and its consumer base rewarding the company for what it does.

There is no reason for them to change.

The push towards overly simplistic rules that make no sense, bust immersion, and are gamey for gamey sense was not only embraced, but openly and fiercely loved by what I perceive to be the majority of gw players.

I don't expect anything to change anytime soon.