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WhiteDog wrote:
You should play chess, there's no annoying inconsistencies, and no "ad hoc" fluff to justify unit design.

You should stop using stupid, bad faith arguments.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

WhiteDog wrote:
You should play chess, there's no annoying inconsistencies, and no "ad hoc" fluff to justify unit design.

You should stop using stupid, bad faith arguments.

I'm adapting to the arguments presented to me, which are ignorant, stupid and phrased in an obnoxious manner as showed by your last comment.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

WhiteDog wrote:
They are not the same units, they have the same role and are substitutes. Knights and Wraith Knights also have the same role and the lnly thing that prevent us from switching one from the other is that they come from two different factions. It is the same for those flyers.

Well lemme know how many units are shared between Eldar and Imperial Knights compared to Dark/Blood Angels and Space Marines and we can consolidate them like you helpfully suggested.

Oh wait they're basically the same army! Job well done!

It's debattable since they have different codexes. GW is clearly using a lot of ressources to make more differences between faction than what used to be. The CSM back in the 3rd edition were very close to the loyalist space marines in many ways, aside for a small number of units. Now even within the CSM faction there are three space marine codexes with different entries. As I said before : from a rule perspective, I understand that having unique entry to those faction could make sense and give fluidity to the game, but this vision is long gone.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

WhiteDog wrote:
You should play chess, there's no annoying inconsistencies, and no "ad hoc" fluff to justify unit design.

You should stop using stupid, bad faith arguments.

Didn't you know? The moment we don't have a separate codex for EVERY Loyalist Chapter we're just playing Checkers!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

WhiteDog wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

WhiteDog wrote:
You should play chess, there's no annoying inconsistencies, and no "ad hoc" fluff to justify unit design.

You should stop using stupid, bad faith arguments.

I'm adapting to the arguments presented to me, which are ignorant, stupid and phrased in an obnoxious manner as showed by your last comment.

You haven't been able to refute the arguments based on the whole "go play chess" thing, considering that three frickin armies are the same and there needs to be order.

WhiteDog wrote:
I'm adapting to the arguments presented to me

You aren't, and this is the crux of the issue. Adapt to the argument presented to you.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

WhiteDog wrote:
I'm adapting to the arguments presented to me

You aren't, and this is the crux of the issue. Adapt to the argument presented to you.

Which are ? You reject the fluff presented to you for no apparent reason beside the fact that marine are not supposed to build their own weapons, while many SM actually have direct or indirect ways to build their own weapons ? You argue that white scars should have bikes on what ground ? Because that's their fluff. I.E. you just nitpick the fluff you wish to argue your case, and thus the discussion has no sense.

Super-fan just above argued that the land speeder and the land speeder vengeance variant can be consolidated into a single unit, while the two units are hugely different in proportions but somehow I'm the one that should give arguments ? I shouldn't have to feed you the lore of the game for us to have a good conversation is what I mean.

Why would some Chapters not have Ancients in Teminator armour but called something else.

someone, BTW hasn't read the new SM codex.

The point is that Cawl just built a brand new marine and a brand new suit and a bunch of new weapons and strapped a bunch of old weapons onto all new platforms. If you think other SM couldn't get some plasma strapped onto a bike your ignoring the very fluff you are trying to use to defend your position.

And all of this is moot. Every regular marine unit is heading towards getting squatted. Do you think they are going to make a special new primaris on wolves? New special deathwing primaris unit that are not just a paint scheme?

Clocks ticking on all these units.

Do you think they are going to make a special new primaris on wolves? New special deathwing primaris unit that are not just a paint scheme?

'
eventually... yes

WhiteDog wrote:
Which are?

Which are that each chapter is unique in its own way and yet mostly similar to other chapters, and that the best way to represent this is to allow maximum flexibility for everyone to make their own space marines army, over flanderizing a few chapters and creating weird situations where the same weapons have different profile in different SM chapters.

WhiteDog wrote:
You reject the fluff presented to you for no apparent reason beside the fact that marine are not supposed to build their own weapons, while many SM actually have direct or indirect ways to build their own weapons ?

Yeah, sure, they have been the sole people able to make this kind of tank in the whole imperium for literally a dozen thousand years! Make total sense, right? And no other chapters than 3 among a thousand happen to be in that situation, which just by coincidence happens to be only FFC and the one that get all the other unique stuff! Totally legit!

BrianDavion wrote:

Do you think they are going to make a special new primaris on wolves? New special deathwing primaris unit that are not just a paint scheme?

'
eventually... yes

Yeah, whats your fluff justification for that? What does it matter if the 1rst legion has a massive stockpile of heresy era tech when nobody can fit inside it anymore? Is Cawl going to invent a way to primarisize Thunder Wolves so that they get big enough to carry Primaris? Or will SW just get a new box or upgrade sprue that adds wolfy bits to the obviously incoming Primaris biker kit?

Your justification for having all these snowflake units is fluff. And yet fluff is exactly why this gak won't carry over and the leaps they would have to make in the fluff so it would are so ridiculous, it would be worse then Cawl mastering every tech he touches instantly.

I'm pretty sure the Salamanders make their own wargear, hence the whole Master Artisans thingy.


Let me reiterate that NO ONE IS SAYING TAKE ANYTHING AWAY from the snowflakes. But unfortunately this is the only reaction we get when this subject is discussed.

Because you end up with 5 or so units fighting for the same space. At that point, from both a models and rules standpoint you have to continue to remove more things. You want everyone to have the equipment of the Deathwing terminators, then you end up removing the Deathwing box from sale and making a generic box that has ... maybe all the options but that's not likely.

Or you have 4 flyers in the same role, so at least 2 of them get removed. Will that be the DA specific kits or the generic kits? Probably the DA specific kits as so few people would want those extra bits, since they do t do anything in game except cause a disadvantage due to true LoS.

Now when you suggest removing options so everyone can have them you're still suggesting removal of models people obviously want to buy, otherwise they'd not have been made.

Can you see that side of this, or are you so stuck in calling things 'snowflakes' so you dont have to consider the other side to your argument?

 Lance845 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Do you think they are going to make a special new primaris on wolves? New special deathwing primaris unit that are not just a paint scheme?

'
eventually... yes

Yeah, whats your fluff justification for that? What does it matter if the 1rst legion has a massive stockpile of heresy era tech when nobody can fit inside it anymore? Is Cawl going to invent a way to primarisize Thunder Wolves so that they get big enough to carry Primaris? Or will SW just get a new box or upgrade sprue that adds wolfy bits to the obviously incoming Primaris biker kit?

Your justification for having all these snowflake units is fluff. And yet fluff is exactly why this gak won't carry over and the leaps they would have to make in the fluff so it would are so ridiculous, it would be worse then Cawl mastering every tech he touches instantly.

I will not be surprised if GW will just release primaris cavalry with their casual "oh, but the doggos always was big enouth for primaris".
They clearly don't care about fluff, I mean look, ever carcharodons become primaris, and those guys are super stealthy and live in outer space.

BrianDavion wrote:

Why would some Chapters not have Ancients in Teminator armour but called something else.

someone, BTW hasn't read the new SM codex.

And it took a whole new codex to add that, hence the point that the inconsistencies are terrible for Marines in general, along with treating CSM like Loyalists too.

 BroodSpawn wrote:
Because you end up with 5 or so units fighting for the same space. At that point, from both a models and rules standpoint you have to continue to remove more things. You want everyone to have the equipment of the Deathwing terminators, then you end up removing the Deathwing box from sale and making a generic box that has ... maybe all the options but that's not likely.

Or you have 4 flyers in the same role, so at least 2 of them get removed. Will that be the DA specific kits or the generic kits? Probably the DA specific kits as so few people would want those extra bits, since they do t do anything in game except cause a disadvantage due to true LoS.

Now when you suggest removing options so everyone can have them you're still suggesting removal of models people obviously want to buy, otherwise they'd not have been made.

Can you see that side of this, or are you so stuck in calling things 'snowflakes' so you dont have to consider the other side to your argument?

If it's a choice between a better cleaner game or some kits because you like them I choose the game. Sorry.

They’ll build up core things available to all.

Later they’ll add flavoured versions to sell new/repacked kits.

Primaris is largely a reboot so GW can escape 30-odd years of people already having the kits. Everyone gets to buy new models. Then the multiparty ones that add a new better alternate build. They know what to do when everyone has the new core stuff... release specialised/Chapter versions! (cf Forge World’s entire business model)

All this has happened before, all this has happened again. Maybe this will give them an excuse to rationalise the ranges somewhat and remove some of the flanderisation e.g. Wolfe Murder Death Frost Wolfson type things. Who knows. But Chapter variant stuff will come down the line when they need to sell more stuff. S’how we got Deathwing in the first place.

And that's the thing, you dont have any proof it will make the game cleaner by removing models from it. You have no proof that the issues in the game are caused by Deathwing terminators just existing as more than a paint job being the problem. You dont like it, fine. But removing those models and options under some perceived balancing act (let's ignore the fact you want you're also ignoring or removing 30+ years of stories at the same time, which is a big selling point for 40k) does not guarantee you will get the balance you demand

 BroodSpawn wrote:
And that's the thing, you dont have any proof it will make the game cleaner by removing models from it. You have no proof that the issues in the game are caused by Deathwing terminators just existing as more than a paint job being the problem. You dont like it, fine. But removing those models and options under some perceived balancing act (let's ignore the fact you want you're also ignoring or removing 30+ years of stories at the same time, which is a big selling point for 40k) does not guarantee you will get the balance you demand

We have plenty of proof that adding bespoke rules for the sake of it does add clutter and makes the game unbalanced that can be fixed by a more streamlined prosess, and we call that "7th's deluge of supplements that basically broke the game"

WhiteDog wrote:
You argue that white scars should have bikes on what ground ?

Source, https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/White_Scars wrote:Evoking the mounted warriors of their heritage, each Brotherhood maintains a high proportion of Assault Bikes, Attack Bikes and Land Speeders, and their infantry squads are almost always borne to battle by fast moving vehicles or gunships. Indeed, it is often said that the White Scars are born in the saddle and are not at ease unless fighting on, in or from an armoured mount of some kind.

A White Scar Brotherhood is equivalent to a chapter's company, including their 1st company (aka the veteran squad)

 BroodSpawn wrote:
And that's the thing, you dont have any proof it will make the game cleaner by removing models from it. You have no proof that the issues in the game are caused by Deathwing terminators just existing as more than a paint job being the problem. You dont like it, fine. But removing those models and options under some perceived balancing act (let's ignore the fact you want you're also ignoring or removing 30+ years of stories at the same time, which is a big selling point for 40k) does not guarantee you will get the balance you demand

This is just plain wrong. Less is more. Bloat is bloat. The game inherently gets cleaner by removing units from it. Not kits. Not fluff. Units. You can have unique models with interesting stories but there is no reason those things need their own datasheet or special rules to exist. Upgrade sprues exist for different factions for exactly this purpose. Those heads, shoulder pads, weapons, and special bits don't make the "tac marines" a different datasheet. They just make them uniquely that chapter.

No, it doesn't guarantee the game will instantly become balanced and nobody is saying that this is the magic bullet that would suddenly fix everything. This is a PART of the problem and fixing it is a solid step in the right direction.

What you deem as bloat and therefore unwanted, others see as options to play with. Less is not more, less is well.. less. The game is only clean in the respect that there are less options, everything ends up being the same and nothing matters. That's what you're pushing towards, not some deep tactical clean game where choices matter because you've removed all choices you deem as 'bad'.

If you want fewer options why not push all the Eldar into 1 book? Or remove the Deathwatch and Greg Knights and push them I to Codex Space Marines. In fact why not just have a codex power armour that has 15 total units in, since the rest are all arguably fighting for the same spots.

And remember, clean gameplay is the goal so if a model has no rules it shouldn't be sold as that will just confuse the game and make it less clean. Or is my understanding of clean gameplay somehow also 'wrong'.

Your opinion is that removing options makes things better for everyone. That is not true, its only true for a small sub group on this forum. There are many, many players of this game that are perfectly happy with the range of options and dont see how Deathwing terminators muddg up the game as much as say souping together a bane blade into a Nid list can

List building is not tactical clean choices. Too many options fighting for the same design space is more is less.

Your next couple paragraphs of catastrophising nonesense is exactly that. Complete crap. Space marines are 1 army like tau are 1 army and nids are 1 army. Craftworlds and dark eldar are like astra militarum vs space marines. They are different armys.

Your understanding is wrong. Rules are not model is not fluff. The rules are bloated. The models are fine.

The people whos opinion is they like options, the game be damned, are more interested in fluff and models then the game. And thats fine. It also means their opinion matters less when talking about the rules and the game. They just dont actually care about it as a priority. You can have fluff and models that are not the game and thats fine. Meanwhile the game has problems.

And again, the new fex varients are the same problem. Thornbacks and screamer killers dont need to be theirs own datasheets. Its dumb that they are.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
They’ll build up core things available to all.

Later they’ll add flavoured versions to sell new/repacked kits.

Then let's have the core things available to all in a common book, and the flavored special units in the supplement.

 Lance845 wrote:

 BroodSpawn wrote:
And that's the thing, you dont have any proof it will make the game cleaner by removing models from it. You have no proof that the issues in the game are caused by Deathwing terminators just existing as more than a paint job being the problem. You dont like it, fine. But removing those models and options under some perceived balancing act (let's ignore the fact you want you're also ignoring or removing 30+ years of stories at the same time, which is a big selling point for 40k) does not guarantee you will get the balance you demand

This is just plain wrong. Less is more. Bloat is bloat. The game inherently gets cleaner by removing units from it. Not kits. Not fluff. Units. You can have unique models with interesting stories but there is no reason those things need their own datasheet or special rules to exist. Upgrade sprues exist for different factions for exactly this purpose. Those heads, shoulder pads, weapons, and special bits don't make the "tac marines" a different datasheet. They just make them uniquely that chapter.

No, it doesn't guarantee the game will instantly become balanced and nobody is saying that this is the magic bullet that would suddenly fix everything. This is a PART of the problem and fixing it is a solid step in the right direction.

let's remove Tyranids, hell let's remove all factions and just have space marines vs space marines, we can call it "warhammer 40k Heresy edition!" we can reduce the models to space marines (that can be kitted as tac devestator or assault squads) a razorback and call it a day! it's simplier and less bloated the game'll be better! wait player base were you goiong!?

BrianDavion wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

 BroodSpawn wrote:
And that's the thing, you dont have any proof it will make the game cleaner by removing models from it. You have no proof that the issues in the game are caused by Deathwing terminators just existing as more than a paint job being the problem. You dont like it, fine. But removing those models and options under some perceived balancing act (let's ignore the fact you want you're also ignoring or removing 30+ years of stories at the same time, which is a big selling point for 40k) does not guarantee you will get the balance you demand

This is just plain wrong. Less is more. Bloat is bloat. The game inherently gets cleaner by removing units from it. Not kits. Not fluff. Units. You can have unique models with interesting stories but there is no reason those things need their own datasheet or special rules to exist. Upgrade sprues exist for different factions for exactly this purpose. Those heads, shoulder pads, weapons, and special bits don't make the "tac marines" a different datasheet. They just make them uniquely that chapter.

No, it doesn't guarantee the game will instantly become balanced and nobody is saying that this is the magic bullet that would suddenly fix everything. This is a PART of the problem and fixing it is a solid step in the right direction.

let's remove Tyranids, hell let's remove all factions and just have space marines vs space marines, we can call it "warhammer 40k Heresy edition!" we can reduce the models to space marines (that can be kitted as tac devestator or assault squads) a razorback and call it a day! it's simplier and less bloated the game'll be better! wait player base were you goiong!?

Oh look, more catastrophizing nonsense. This statement is totally valid and not at all a straw man that has no grounding in reality and doesn't address the actual things I said. Removing a entire unique faction is not the same as condensing say... terminators (again, not that they need to be condensed. They will all be squatted soon enough). A better analogy would be condensing thornback and screamer killers into the regular carnifex. At which point, yes. Please. Those datasheets are a waste of space. Just make normal bioplasma the SC version and cost it appropriately. Then I could just BUILD a screamer killer off the regular datasheet and everything would be fine.

I completely agree on the honor guard, bit each chapter should have access to them sorta like chapter tactics.

Like savage traits etc for your chapter.

 Lance845 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

 BroodSpawn wrote:
And that's the thing, you dont have any proof it will make the game cleaner by removing models from it. You have no proof that the issues in the game are caused by Deathwing terminators just existing as more than a paint job being the problem. You dont like it, fine. But removing those models and options under some perceived balancing act (let's ignore the fact you want you're also ignoring or removing 30+ years of stories at the same time, which is a big selling point for 40k) does not guarantee you will get the balance you demand

This is just plain wrong. Less is more. Bloat is bloat. The game inherently gets cleaner by removing units from it. Not kits. Not fluff. Units. You can have unique models with interesting stories but there is no reason those things need their own datasheet or special rules to exist. Upgrade sprues exist for different factions for exactly this purpose. Those heads, shoulder pads, weapons, and special bits don't make the "tac marines" a different datasheet. They just make them uniquely that chapter.

No, it doesn't guarantee the game will instantly become balanced and nobody is saying that this is the magic bullet that would suddenly fix everything. This is a PART of the problem and fixing it is a solid step in the right direction.

let's remove Tyranids, hell let's remove all factions and just have space marines vs space marines, we can call it "warhammer 40k Heresy edition!" we can reduce the models to space marines (that can be kitted as tac devestator or assault squads) a razorback and call it a day! it's simplier and less bloated the game'll be better! wait player base were you goiong!?

Oh look, more catastrophizing nonsense. This statement is totally valid and not at all a straw man that has no grounding in reality and doesn't address the actual things I said. Removing a entire unique faction is not the same as condensing say... terminators (again, not that they need to be condensed. They will all be squatted soon enough). A better analogy would be condensing thornback and screamer killers into the regular carnifex. At which point, yes. Please. Those datasheets are a waste of space. Just make normal bioplasma the SC version and cost it appropriately. Then I could just BUILD a screamer killer off the regular datasheet and everything would be fine.

I'm in mixed agreement. On one hand having data for "Armored Boyz" or "Skar Boyz" or "Bully Boyz" would be cool and neat. But on the other hand it is unneeded bloat.
But I honestly don't have a problem with "bloat", I find the rules in this game over-simplistic and easy to understand, which lets there be more "bloat" in the form of additional data sheets.

The ONLY personal requirement I have is that those data sheets follow a set of core "rules" per faction, ie guard always T3, Orks always bad saves lots of attacks or Marines always complaining on forums.

The fact that DA have a specific unit of terminator does not contribute at all negatively to the fluidity of the game or anything, this argument is just silly. If bloat is the problem, a fusion of all SM in one codex could be a solution, but the end of the less popular xenos factions could also be one. Why having Tau, necron, dark eldar and eldar when one xenos faction could do the same as all those three ? What's the benefit from a gameplay standpoint ? And after all didn't they all had the same index ? The answer is obvious to anyone actually playing the game : there is a value in this diversity in itself, from a lore and a gameplay perspective, and the various flavors of space marine (DA/BA/SW) are valuable as such by giving more depth to the lore and the gaming experience, by giving more possibilities to players.

 Luke_Prowler wrote:

 BroodSpawn wrote:
And that's the thing, you dont have any proof it will make the game cleaner by removing models from it. You have no proof that the issues in the game are caused by Deathwing terminators just existing as more than a paint job being the problem. You dont like it, fine. But removing those models and options under some perceived balancing act (let's ignore the fact you want you're also ignoring or removing 30+ years of stories at the same time, which is a big selling point for 40k) does not guarantee you will get the balance you demand

We have plenty of proof that adding bespoke rules for the sake of it does add clutter and makes the game unbalanced that can be fixed by a more streamlined prosess, and we call that "7th's deluge of supplements that basically broke the game"

WhiteDog wrote:
You argue that white scars should have bikes on what ground ?

Source, https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/White_Scars wrote:Evoking the mounted warriors of their heritage, each Brotherhood maintains a high proportion of Assault Bikes, Attack Bikes and Land Speeders, and their infantry squads are almost always borne to battle by fast moving vehicles or gunships. Indeed, it is often said that the White Scars are born in the saddle and are not at ease unless fighting on, in or from an armoured mount of some kind.

A White Scar Brotherhood is equivalent to a chapter's company, including their 1st company (aka the veteran squad)

You've misunderstood me.

There's a difference in degree between "Terminators with set options" and "Terminators with mixed options" as compared to "Ancient Egyptian Robo Space Mummies" and "Blue Space Fish Communists with Tons Of Dakka".

 JNAProductions wrote:
There's a difference in degree between "Terminators with set options" and "Terminators with mixed options" as compared to "Ancient Egyptian Robo Space Mummies" and "Blue Space Fish Communists with Tons Of Dakka".

Oh, I know! The first two sell well and the last two sit on the shelf.

 Eonfuzz wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
There's a difference in degree between "Terminators with set options" and "Terminators with mixed options" as compared to "Ancient Egyptian Robo Space Mummies" and "Blue Space Fish Communists with Tons Of Dakka".

Oh, I know! The first two sell well and the last two sit on the shelf.

And yet, not so poorly that their entire line is currently in the process of being squatted.

If SM were selling so well they would have never bothered with the complete overhaul of their line into Numarines. Clearly SM had hit a massive slump and every release over the last 2 years has been on the single trajectory of removing every unit you are currently fighting for in favor of the new units they are replacing them with.