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Made in us
The Last Chancer Who Survived




On moon miranda.

I don't think GW would dispute that, their attitude is basically that the game is there to give people something to do with their plastic army men, which are the real product. As long as it's passable for that purpose, that suits GW and most players.

And, to be fair, on those lines, 8E is probably the most functional ruleset GW has ever produced.

IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

Heavy Gear Painting Log, Northern Guard, Southern Republican Army, and Terrain
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
Made in de
Waaagh! Ork Warboss on Warbike





 BaconCatBug wrote:
 Eldarsif wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
Possible, but that contradicts the other signs of 8ths incredible success, like GW's business numbers, facebook activity, multiple fan sites (B&C, dakka) reporting an all-time high in user activity and massive increases in organized event participants.
On top you have the subjective effect of huge amounts of people coming back to the game that have not played in decades. Most people unhappy with 8th seem to be those who enjoyed 7th, because they signed up for a completely different game.

As many people as ever are playing WH40k, and the vast majority of them would rather play 8th than any other edition.
To paraphrase Mark Hamill, it doesn't need to be good, it just needs to make money. People like bad things all the time.


You realize that this paraphrasing is perhaps the worst counterpoint to any argument? I mean, it is a completely empty statement that mounts to a very verbose "nuh-uh" response.

I mean, I get it. You personally really dislike 8th. Nothing wrong with that. Doesn't make your opinion more or less valid than other people's opinion. Except mine of course.
8th is an objectively bad game.


If many people enjoy it and a company makes a ton of money off it, you are objectively wrong about that.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Yes, because everyone lines up on the deployment line when facing off against orkz, especially when said orkz are fielding 3 Bonebreakers...which rely exclusively on getting into CC to inflict any kind of actual harm. All of your arguments rely upon your opponent being a brain dead muppet who just lets you maul him.


Yea...that's called board control.
 
   
Made in dk
Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot






AdmiralHalsey wrote:
 vict0988 wrote:
Spoiler:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
8th is an objectively bad game.

By what metric? People are having fun, the game is popular, GW is making money on it. No 8th might be subjectively bad if you go by the metrics of a well-written and tight ruleset getting tighter and tighter. But an objective metric of how good a game is would almost inevitably have to include 8th edition or else exclude games that most people agree are good games. Gameplay is fun. Story is degrading, but given its long history much of the story of the overall work is still super good. Difficulty is low, debth is high. Complexity is expanding rapidly, but most of that complexity is optional, you'll have to work quite hard to justify how optional content is objectively bad, rather than subjectively bad because you don't like it personally. Even if you haven't read all the added rules you can ask 3-5 questions and weedle out the most important information you need about them if your opponent is using them.



Objectively 'badly designed' game, he meant to say.
[He? Probably a he. Do cat bugs have a gender? Does bacon?]

It's got some great marketing and very pretty minatures, though.

Not sure it's really defendable when you go, 'In order to play this game you will require two people, two thousand pounds, a large table, paint, glue, clippers, over one hundred paper printed documents, a rulebook, two yearly updates to the rulebook, two faction specific rulebooks, along with possibly another suppliment, access to Dakka's 'you make da call' online forum, and a dice for when you still disagree what any of these rules mean.'

That's not great design, and if anyone thinks that's the only way to make a playable wargame and this is good design, then I honestly don't know what to say.


I agree that it's badly designed, badly playtested, badly patched etc. etc. But at the end of the day, it's still fun. I don't believe in wrong fun, Cookie Clicker is a good game, Ludo is a good game, Monopoly is a good game, hordes of people have had fun with those games so they are good, a game can also be good if a minority have fun with them, but if a lot of people play them and have fun then you can't really call it a bad game. You could argue it's just marketing and buyers remorse forcing people to play, but I don't believe that to be the case, even if they are all badly designed, they still strike a chord on some level that make them enjoyable and re-selling 40k still yields a 30-90% return on investment. Now if you had games that produce literally no enjoyment or negative enjoyment, then I think we can agree on a game being bad.
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






 Jidmah wrote:
If many people enjoy it and a company makes a ton of money off it, you are objectively wrong about that.
Enjoyment doesn't equal quality. Profit doesn't equal quality.

Add me on Discord: BaconCatBug#0294
+++++There are currently ONE HUNDRED AND EIGHT(108) documents required to play Warhammer 40,000 8th edition+++++
+++++List of "broken" RaW in Warhammer 40,000 8th edition+++++
Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
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Userscript to add a button to open all "[First Unread]" links on the page, hides the "[Blog View]" links, and adds a "Subscribed Threads" link to forum pages.  
   
Made in us
Mekboy Hammerin' Somethin'




Douglasville, GA

To be fair, a game is just something that provides enjoyment to those playing it. So, strictly speaking, as long as people ARE enjoying 8th edition, it is a good game, because it's fulfilling this objective.
   
Made in us
Thunderhawk Pilot Dropping From Orbit




San Jose, CA



BaconCatBug wrote:Enjoyment doesn't equal quality. Profit doesn't equal quality.


flandarz wrote:To be fair, a game is just something that provides enjoyment to those playing it. So, strictly speaking, as long as people ARE enjoying 8th edition, it is a good game, because it's fulfilling this objective.


I'm pretty confident that if enough people enjoy a game, they are the ones in the unique position to determine if it is one of quality.

BCB is apparently incapable of making objective observations(or at least confusing sub/objective). Especially how the popularity of 8th and the record profits associated with it, reflect how the general player population perceives the game. It doesn't reflect the narrative that they've been pushing since 8th dropped. One where GW is "incompetent and terrible at game design"(paraphrasing from innumerable posts) & couldnt design their way out of a paper bag.


Also, BCB doesnt play the game.


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/06 21:29:25


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Terrible at game design? Absolutely.
Like, did you forget Pyrovores blowing up the whole frickin table or something?

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Krazed Killa Kan






Low quality things sell all the time. The Transformers movies made bank despite it being rather brain dead and all eye candy. Fast food is popular and yet very few would say its high quality food. At least in the US the most commonly played board games are stuff made by Milton Bradly and almost all of those games are mindlessly simple to play (Stratego is good stuff at least).

I think its safe to say that 8th edition is objective a less complex game than 4th, 5th, 6th, or 7th edition. Subjectively I would say 8th is too simplistic and plays a bit too much to a lower common denominator. It helps make the game be more accessible to those who like an easier entry point, beer and pretzel, or less complex game to play. What it doesn't do is provide the depth of mechanics to those who enjoy more complexity in their table top games. Its a trade off that goes against what I want from the game but I get why they went that route (same reason why Transformers, McDonalds, and MB make a lot of money). That isn't to say I am some board gaming elitist but that I'm a obsessive nerd who loves digging into hundreds of niche use rules and having loads of factors to consider when making decisions in a game. 8th wasn't designed for people like me where as past editions played more towards the rules nerd crowd.

Even now I still find myself loving 7th edition despite its horrific balance choices. It takes work to tailor a game to have a good matchup (finding the right armies and lists to go against each other) but when you get a good matchup its something magical to play. There is so much that could of been done to fix up the balance and adjust some of the core rules but the foundation for game mechanics was there for great gameplay to be had.

"Hold my shoota, I'm goin in"
Armies (7th edition points)
7000+ Points Death Skullz
4000 Points
+ + 3000 Points "The Fiery Heart of the Emperor"
3500 Points "Void Kraken" Space Marines
3000 Points "Bard's Booze Cruise" 
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut




 Vankraken wrote:


I think its safe to say that 8th edition is objective a less complex game than 4th, 5th, 6th, or 7th edition.


When you are just considering the rules, I'd say you're right, and I think your assessment is absolutely fair.

Where 8th gains it's richness isn't it's rule set. It's the fact that for the first time, EVERY faction has unique subgroups that are represented by rules designed to reflect their background. It's the interactions of scale and the potential for campaign building. The integration of Blackstone, Kill Team, and Apocalypse has never been so smooth, and GW just keeps making it more seamless. Example- thus far, BSF has had the poorest integration. BUT the Escalation expansion that was just released introduces the concept of retinue characters.

See the bridge to Kill Team? Because once you're into Kill Team, the transition to 40k and onto Apocalypse is seamless.

So now you're a new player- you play a board game. Your character completes missions, earns rep, attracts a retinue. Guess what?

You've already got rules for the board game models that you already own for Kill Team. And now your whole team is being defined; the character you started with was already a legend from BSF, but the character's retinue is green. Kill Team fleshes that out, allowing each retinue member to grow his or her own story. +And suddenly you meet another Kill Team and you're a detachment! And again, you've already got rules for the models you own, as you prepare to take a Blackstone Hero into a third game system, and his retinue into the second.

Yeah, we lost things like firing arcs for vehicles and some cover rules that people really liked, and quite a few other things that did make former rule sets more complex. But sweet Emperor almighty, look at what we have gained!

If you've always enjoyed competitive solo games, whether in a tournament setting or just casually, and you are disappointed with the current state of the the game, before you throw in the towel, I would just suggest trying a narrative escalation campaign before you write this edition off as simple.You don't have to start at the micro BSF level if none of the available characters appeal to you, but seriously- grow an army from a kill team to a detachment to an army to an apocalypse force, unlocking the capacity to incorporate allied detachments as you explore and conquer territories.

I like inventing these campaigns myself, so Urban Conquest was my tool. But if you don't want to do the world building part yourself, no problem because you can just get the stuff from Vigilus and the background is done for you. Vigilus was small- it was only two books. A teaser to test proof of concept. Psychic Awakening is going to make it look like Blackstone Fortress looks like through the lens of Apocalypse.

There is an ocean of content that has never existed in this game's considerable history. For example, I'm working on designs to build 40k scale vessels as both 40k terrain and playable game boards for the mini-games. The Truehawk from Kill Team: Rogue Trader is my proof of concept piece, because I have a floor plan to work with; the lack of images of the ship's exterior does propose a challenge, but given the floor plan, I think it's easier than building something like the Clarion from BSF, where you have the exterior without the floor plan.

So, yeah... The Euclidian Starstriders could literally land on a 40k battlefield and become a detachment within an army if the combined force can survive the mission. And once that event occurs, they can stick with the army until it grows to Apocalypse, cuz you already got the free download for using them in that game too.

Just wait until next July when the Sisters of St Katherine's Aegis are on the verge of being wiped out by a Genestealer Cult and suddenly, the Clarion lands in the middle of the battlefield, and Taddeus the Purifier, Pious Vorne, Gotfret de Montbard lead retinues of frothing crusaders, death cult assassins and arcoflagellants that have been gathered over the course of the dozens of kill team battles that took place as they made their way from the Blackstone Fortress back to more familiar Imperial Territory.

Do I miss a few old rules every now and again? Honestly? Sometimes.

But was it worth it to get all this? Hell yeah!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/07 03:24:00


 
   
Made in us
Krazed Killa Kan






PenitentJake wrote:
 Vankraken wrote:


I think its safe to say that 8th edition is objective a less complex game than 4th, 5th, 6th, or 7th edition.


When you are just considering the rules, I'd say you're right, and I think your assessment is absolutely fair.

Where 8th gains it's richness isn't it's rule set. It's the fact that for the first time, EVERY faction has unique subgroups that are represented by rules designed to reflect their background. It's the interactions of scale and the potential for campaign building. The integration of Blackstone, Kill Team, and Apocalypse has never been so smooth, and GW just keeps making it more seamless. Example- thus far, BSF has had the poorest integration. BUT the Escalation expansion that was just released introduces the concept of retinue characters.

See the bridge to Kill Team? Because once you're into Kill Team, the transition to 40k and onto Apocalypse is seamless.

So now you're a new player- you play a board game. Your character completes missions, earns rep, attracts a retinue. Guess what?

You've already got rules for the board game models that you already own for Kill Team. And now your whole team is being defined; the character you started with was already a legend from BSF, but the character's retinue is green. Kill Team fleshes that out, allowing each retinue member to grow his or her own story. +And suddenly you meet another Kill Team and you're a detachment! And again, you've already got rules for the models you own, as you prepare to take a Blackstone Hero into a third game system, and his retinue into the second.

Yeah, we lost things like firing arcs for vehicles and some cover rules that people really liked, and quite a few other things that did make former rule sets more complex. But sweet Emperor almighty, look at what we have gained!

If you've always enjoyed competitive solo games, whether in a tournament setting or just casually, and you are disappointed with the current state of the the game, before you throw in the towel, I would just suggest trying a narrative escalation campaign before you write this edition off as simple.You don't have to start at the micro BSF level if none of the available characters appeal to you, but seriously- grow an army from a kill team to a detachment to an army to an apocalypse force, unlocking the capacity to incorporate allied detachments as you explore and conquer territories.

I like inventing these campaigns myself, so Urban Conquest was my tool. But if you don't want to do the world building part yourself, no problem because you can just get the stuff from Vigilus and the background is done for you. Vigilus was small- it was only two books. A teaser to test proof of concept. Psychic Awakening is going to make it look like Blackstone Fortress looks like through the lens of Apocalypse.

There is an ocean of content that has never existed in this game's considerable history. For example, I'm working on designs to build 40k scale vessels as both 40k terrain and playable game boards for the mini-games. The Truehawk from Kill Team: Rogue Trader is my proof of concept piece, because I have a floor plan to work with; the lack of images of the ship's exterior does propose a challenge, but given the floor plan, I think it's easier than building something like the Clarion from BSF, where you have the exterior without the floor plan.

So, yeah... The Euclidian Starstriders could literally land on a 40k battlefield and become a detachment within an army if the combined force can survive the mission. And once that event occurs, they can stick with the army until it grows to Apocalypse, cuz you already got the free download for using them in that game too.

Just wait until next July when the Sisters of St Katherine's Aegis are on the verge of being wiped out by a Genestealer Cult and suddenly, the Clarion lands in the middle of the battlefield, and Taddeus the Purifier, Pious Vorne, Gotfret de Montbard lead retinues of frothing crusaders, death cult assassins and arcoflagellants that have been gathered over the course of the dozens of kill team battles that took place as they made their way from the Blackstone Fortress back to more familiar Imperial Territory.

Do I miss a few old rules every now and again? Honestly? Sometimes.

But was it worth it to get all this? Hell yeah!


Its absolutely fantastic that you get that much excitement and a rich experience from how GW has developed 8th and its associated game types.

For me though the fun is found in making my list, fielding it, executing my strategy/tactics, and playing out a battle that is complex. With that 8th fails to be fun because it lacks all the depth of mechanics that I find fun to play. All the integration of games into each other to carry over one thing to another would be good if the actual act of playing the game wasn't just so boring. I wish i could share in that enjoyment but playing 8th is just so dreadfully dull where as playing 7th still feels fun and exciting. I legit went into 8th (while hating primaris) with some degree of excitement as to how i can field my armies and make them work. Played probably a dozen games of 8th and i find myself always being bored. If the sum total of the time spent playing a game is boredom and feeling tedious then its not worth the time.

"Hold my shoota, I'm goin in"
Armies (7th edition points)
7000+ Points Death Skullz
4000 Points
+ + 3000 Points "The Fiery Heart of the Emperor"
3500 Points "Void Kraken" Space Marines
3000 Points "Bard's Booze Cruise" 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




5th edition was/is my favorite since I believe it was the best edition for what I want 40k to be, which is each side having a few squads of infantry back by some monsters or vehicles depending on the faction.

The only significant changes I would make is having vehicles being a bit less durable (I had rhinos that could eat half an armies worth of shooting and that's a bit much for a 35 point vehicle) and clean up the wound allocation to stop things like nob bikers not losing a model until it's 11th wound. Other wise it was a solid rule set until codex creep set in.

My main gripe with 8th isn't really the rules themselves but all that GW has added to since 5th ended. Flyers and super heavies in standard games break the scale unless GW moves away from the D6 and make having any real chance of balance a hell of a task.

A game that is trying to have fair rules for a grot and a titan and everything in between just isn't going to pan out.
   
Made in us
Thunderhawk Pilot Dropping From Orbit




San Jose, CA

I would really like if GW went to a hybrid D6/12 for wounding/damage.
   
Made in us
Boom! Leman Russ Commander





 Vankraken wrote:

Its absolutely fantastic that you get that much excitement and a rich experience from how GW has developed 8th and its associated game types.

For me though the fun is found in making my list, fielding it, executing my strategy/tactics, and playing out a battle that is complex. With that 8th fails to be fun because it lacks all the depth of mechanics that I find fun to play. All the integration of games into each other to carry over one thing to another would be good if the actual act of playing the game wasn't just so boring. I wish i could share in that enjoyment but playing 8th is just so dreadfully dull where as playing 7th still feels fun and exciting. I legit went into 8th (while hating primaris) with some degree of excitement as to how i can field my armies and make them work. Played probably a dozen games of 8th and i find myself always being bored. If the sum total of the time spent playing a game is boredom and feeling tedious then its not worth the time.


I would say that most of my fun is also found in planning my list and executing my strategy to secure victory over my foes.

However, I would say it's because of that that I find 8th so much more fun than previous editions. For the most part, everything feels balanced and stable mechanically, barring a few odd exceptions, with a considerable amount of strategic and tactical decisions to be made that can make or break the game from the very fine to the very broad and a lot of places in between, far more-so than 7th.

One criticism is that 8th is far more abstracted than previous editions. 7th had false depth from vehicle facings and arcs: they were there to keep track of, but they didn't really contribute meaningfully to the tactics or strategy of the game, they were just sort of there to manage. While they're largely insignificant from the adding tactical and strategic depth perspective and add a lot of ambiguity and bookkeeping, they do add a character and level of simulationism that make a wargame enjoyable than a highly abstract game like Chess.


I would say I'm very happy with 8th. The only edition I would go back to would be 5th; but as I said, I have no delusions that what I enjoyed about 5th would return in the days of Riptides, Primarchs, [and of course, a changed playgroup].

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/09 14:46:25


Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
 
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