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 Elbows wrote:
Remember, people can't have an opinion because Daedelus said so. Better tow the party line or shut up.

LOL that's rich.

 Blndmage wrote:
I hope it's not all Imperial and Chaos.
I hope Xenos factions get love.

Forgeworld has 37 entries under a whole category just for "Contemptor Dreadnoughts".

They have more f***ing Contemptor Dreadnought products than they do entire lines for any xenos faction.

In fact, the only non-space marine faction with more listed products than they have under "Contemptor Dreadnoughts" is Imperial Guard, because they made a big pile of IG super heavies once upon a time that they haven't axed yet back when they made cool and different things instead of the same Space Marine thing 18 times with 3 pieces of bling molded onto it.


I have no confidence that xenos armies, or even IG, will get any good rules.

You act like it would be hard for them to create different designs for the Contemptor. With the base design it can be easy for them to modify and get different variants out.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You act like it would be hard for them to create different designs for the Contemptor. With the base design it can be easy for them to modify and get different variants out.

It's more that each one is a full mould rather than a modification kit.
A full mould, even if the design work is based on the same core, still means they are investing into way more Marine models than Xenos models; esp when you consider that in general the mould production and casting is likely the greater cost of developing a new model over the cost of design work. Esp for resins where, whilst the mould is a lot cheaper, the casting is more labour intensive and thus a greater upkeep cost.

It's even worse when you consider that as bad as Xenos have it, AoS only has around 40 models left and lost well over 12 over the last three months.

Call me a conspiracy theorist but does anyone think that the reason fw has so many kits for marines might have something to do with one of their primary focuses for several years being a game based almost entirely on marine vs marine?

That or something involving sasquatch and Elvis.

I think everyone who is skeptical certainly has a right to be; especially folks craving Xenos content. I do think Gw is trying to address these concerns, but they aren't going fast enough on Xenos because they aren't allowed to slow down on the marine front.

But I'm going to present an alternate "might happen" scenario, just to try to bring a bit of hope.

Some FW models have become GW models in the past- I've never been a big investor in FW, so I might be mixed up, but I think I remember reading that at one point the Manticore and Deathstrike, as well as many of the fliers were exclusively FW products.

So what if GW redoing the FW Indexes leads to GW models for some or even all of the included units?

I mean, if GW really is going to stay away from the whole new edition reset button, they need new content, and bringing in the most popular FW products is less risky than something untested.

Last but not least, regarding FW's xenos deficit, I really think it's up to GW to lead that charge. If they release a massive wave of new material for a Xeno faction instead of a trickle, FW might see their way to creating some stuff for the range as well.

I'm kinda hoping that happens for sisters.

Last thing... Just started DE, and I really like the Tantalus. Feeling like I should pick one up and the rules for it just in case.

PenitentJake wrote:
I think everyone who is skeptical certainly has a right to be; especially folks craving Xenos content. I do think Gw is trying to address these concerns, but they aren't going fast enough on Xenos because they aren't allowed to slow down on the marine front.

But I'm going to present an alternate "might happen" scenario, just to try to bring a bit of hope.

Some FW models have become GW models in the past- I've never been a big investor in FW, so I might be mixed up, but I think I remember reading that at one point the Manticore and Deathstrike, as well as many of the fliers were exclusively FW products.

So what if GW redoing the FW Indexes leads to GW models for some or even all of the included units?

I mean, if GW really is going to stay away from the whole new edition reset button, they need new content, and bringing in the most popular FW products is less risky than something untested.

Last but not least, regarding FW's xenos deficit, I really think it's up to GW to lead that charge. If they release a massive wave of new material for a Xeno faction instead of a trickle, FW might see their way to creating some stuff for the range as well.

I'm kinda hoping that happens for sisters.

Last thing... Just started DE, and I really like the Tantalus. Feeling like I should pick one up and the rules for it just in case.

This would actually be pretty easy for gw to achieve with some kits. A dreadclaw is literally a plastic drop pod kit with some resin conversion parts. An Achilles? Converted landraider. The fellblade series of tanks are all built around a plastic baneblade inner hull.

As far as a new unit for the Sisters goes I still say a super heavy based on the baneblade packing an inferno cannon and lots of gothic imagery would be SICK.

Maybe they'll cut things that never got a miniature, like the tournament-fav Lias Issadon.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Maybe they'll cut things that never got a miniature, like the tournament-fav Lias Issadon.

Likely not. I really wouldn't hope for that either. I got a guy with a Heavy Bolter and Chainsaw bayonet I use for him that I'd like to continue using.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Likely not.

What makes you say that? We're all thinking that the things they don't produce anymore are going to get cut, so why not things that they never produced?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Likely not.

What makes you say that? We're all thinking that the things they don't produce anymore are going to get cut, so why not things that they never produced?

Because it's Marines, simple as that.

Would have been cool if this happened before the Knight meta. So we could have appropriately costed Tiger Sharks doing their job for once. Oh well, FW is always going to be slow

if they cut all the OOP options for codex things like autarch variants and bone singer. I fully expect the FW index to be absolutely stripped of anything that's OOP.

The trouble is the existance of 30k with full support bleeding into 40k meaning the GW favourite factions will get a very unproportionate representation whilst anything cool that's non SM is getting the boot.

Not to be a prophet of doom or try to dump on peoples hopes, But I'll be very surprised if you see any OOP things making it into the new books. I think they wont even legends them because why bother.. that's corporate MO. They don't care.. They already have your money. (nothing against GW personally just the way of the world)

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
Remember, people can't have an opinion because Daedelus said so. Better tow the party line or shut up.

LOL that's rich.

But is it wrong? Sure doesn't seem like it.

 Elbows wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
Remember, people can't have an opinion because Daedelus said so. Better tow the party line or shut up.

LOL that's rich.

But is it wrong? Sure doesn't seem like it.

I made a joke about how other people take information from forums and attribute it as a rumor. So, probably?

LoftyS wrote:
Would have been cool if this happened before the Knight meta. So we could have appropriately costed Tiger Sharks doing their job for once. Oh well, FW is always going to be slow

Not the fault of FW - the main GW studio took over the rules duties for FW units shortly after the start of 8th edition, but it's taken them until now to do anything meaningful with that responsibility, other than to hike the bejeezus out of some of the points costs int he 2018 CA update (IIRC).

Some of that delay is probably due to the speed at which they needed to deliver the Codex cycle, while some of it, going by a question I asked at last year's seminar at UKGE, was to do with them figuring out the best way for them to approach these rules.

 Dysartes wrote:

LoftyS wrote:
Would have been cool if this happened before the Knight meta. So we could have appropriately costed Tiger Sharks doing their job for once. Oh well, FW is always going to be slow

Not the fault of FW - the main GW studio took over the rules duties for FW units shortly after the start of 8th edition, but it's taken them until now to do anything meaningful with that responsibility, other than to hike the bejeezus out of some of the points costs int he 2018 CA update (IIRC).

Some of that delay is probably due to the speed at which they needed to deliver the Codex cycle, while some of it, going by a question I asked at last year's seminar at UKGE, was to do with them figuring out the best way for them to approach these rules.

And some of it was aimed at keeping units that could challenge knights one on one out of the meta in order to sell knights and their codexes.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

And some of it was aimed at keeping units that could challenge knights one on one out of the meta in order to sell knights and their codexes.

Why didn't they nerf everything else capable of taking on knights?

What purpose does it serve to nerf units that would benefit from that codex?

In what way does GW's bottom line benefit if you choose to purchase a $170 Castellan over a $300 Lancer?

GW certainly sold a lot more Castellans than any other sort of knight. Why did GW want to sell those and not other non-FW knights?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

And some of it was aimed at keeping units that could challenge knights one on one out of the meta in order to sell knights and their codexes.

Why didn't they nerf everything else capable of taking on knights?

What purpose does it serve to nerf units that would benefit from that codex?

In what way does GW's bottom line benefit if you choose to purchase a $170 Castellan over a $300 Lancer?

GW certainly sold a lot more Castellans than any other sort of knight. Why did GW want to sell those and not other non-FW knights?

Fine. How would you explain gw's decision to nerf so many of the fw super heavys in ca2018? We're things like fellblades really affecting the meta in a way that would explain that? Especially considering the timing? Perhaps in order to recoup the cost of new plastic moulds for the new models? The moulds for the units affected by ca were probably already paid for.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

And some of it was aimed at keeping units that could challenge knights one on one out of the meta in order to sell knights and their codexes.

Why didn't they nerf everything else capable of taking on knights?

What purpose does it serve to nerf units that would benefit from that codex?

In what way does GW's bottom line benefit if you choose to purchase a $170 Castellan over a $300 Lancer?

GW certainly sold a lot more Castellans than any other sort of knight. Why did GW want to sell those and not other non-FW knights?

Fine. How would you explain gw's decision to nerf so many of the fw super heavys in ca2018? We're things like fellblades really affecting the meta in a way that would explain that? Especially considering the timing? Perhaps in order to recoup the cost of new plastic moulds for the new models? The moulds for the units affected by ca were probably already paid for.

Being a cynic, they probably didnt have time to go over all the fw units as well as the codex units, hence went heavy handed rather than invest the effort.

It has nothing to do with knights, because they were negligent with the entire fw catalogue in CA.

Dudeface wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

And some of it was aimed at keeping units that could challenge knights one on one out of the meta in order to sell knights and their codexes.

Why didn't they nerf everything else capable of taking on knights?

What purpose does it serve to nerf units that would benefit from that codex?

In what way does GW's bottom line benefit if you choose to purchase a $170 Castellan over a $300 Lancer?

GW certainly sold a lot more Castellans than any other sort of knight. Why did GW want to sell those and not other non-FW knights?

Fine. How would you explain gw's decision to nerf so many of the fw super heavys in ca2018? We're things like fellblades really affecting the meta in a way that would explain that? Especially considering the timing? Perhaps in order to recoup the cost of new plastic moulds for the new models? The moulds for the units affected by ca were probably already paid for.

Being a cynic, they probably didnt have time to go over all the fw units as well as the codex units, hence went heavy handed rather than invest the effort.

It has nothing to do with knights, because they were negligent with the entire fw catalogue in CA.

Two years in a row? Why not leave them at their original cost? Most were already over priced.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

And some of it was aimed at keeping units that could challenge knights one on one out of the meta in order to sell knights and their codexes.

Why didn't they nerf everything else capable of taking on knights?

What purpose does it serve to nerf units that would benefit from that codex?

In what way does GW's bottom line benefit if you choose to purchase a $170 Castellan over a $300 Lancer?

GW certainly sold a lot more Castellans than any other sort of knight. Why did GW want to sell those and not other non-FW knights?

Fine. How would you explain gw's decision to nerf so many of the fw super heavys in ca2018? We're things like fellblades really affecting the meta in a way that would explain that? Especially considering the timing? Perhaps in order to recoup the cost of new plastic moulds for the new models? The moulds for the units affected by ca were probably already paid for.

Being a cynic, they probably didnt have time to go over all the fw units as well as the codex units, hence went heavy handed rather than invest the effort.

It has nothing to do with knights, because they were negligent with the entire fw catalogue in CA.

Two years in a row? Why not leave them at their original cost? Most were already over priced.

As far as I'm aware, they didn't raise the costs again in CA2019 - and if they're going to be reviewing everything for new books, my guess is they decided to not touch them for now rather than try to rebalance them in CA2019, only to replace that work with new books later in the year.

 Dysartes wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

And some of it was aimed at keeping units that could challenge knights one on one out of the meta in order to sell knights and their codexes.

Why didn't they nerf everything else capable of taking on knights?

What purpose does it serve to nerf units that would benefit from that codex?

In what way does GW's bottom line benefit if you choose to purchase a $170 Castellan over a $300 Lancer?

GW certainly sold a lot more Castellans than any other sort of knight. Why did GW want to sell those and not other non-FW knights?

Fine. How would you explain gw's decision to nerf so many of the fw super heavys in ca2018? We're things like fellblades really affecting the meta in a way that would explain that? Especially considering the timing? Perhaps in order to recoup the cost of new plastic moulds for the new models? The moulds for the units affected by ca were probably already paid for.

Being a cynic, they probably didnt have time to go over all the fw units as well as the codex units, hence went heavy handed rather than invest the effort.

It has nothing to do with knights, because they were negligent with the entire fw catalogue in CA.

Two years in a row? Why not leave them at their original cost? Most were already over priced.

As far as I'm aware, they didn't raise the costs again in CA2019 - and if they're going to be reviewing everything for new books, my guess is they decided to not touch them for now rather than try to rebalance them in CA2019, only to replace that work with new books later in the year.

I meant they kept them at their current high costs in ca2019. But you are probably correct about their reasoning though I don't agree with it. Ca should address all units at the time of its writing.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

And some of it was aimed at keeping units that could challenge knights one on one out of the meta in order to sell knights and their codexes.

Why didn't they nerf everything else capable of taking on knights?

What purpose does it serve to nerf units that would benefit from that codex?

In what way does GW's bottom line benefit if you choose to purchase a $170 Castellan over a $300 Lancer?

GW certainly sold a lot more Castellans than any other sort of knight. Why did GW want to sell those and not other non-FW knights?

Fine. How would you explain gw's decision to nerf so many of the fw super heavys in ca2018? We're things like fellblades really affecting the meta in a way that would explain that? Especially considering the timing? Perhaps in order to recoup the cost of new plastic moulds for the new models? The moulds for the units affected by ca were probably already paid for.

Being a cynic, they probably didnt have time to go over all the fw units as well as the codex units, hence went heavy handed rather than invest the effort.

It has nothing to do with knights, because they were negligent with the entire fw catalogue in CA.

Two years in a row? Why not leave them at their original cost? Most were already over priced.

If they were already over priced, people wouldn't bring them anyway and would still buy a plastic castellan.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You act like it would be hard for them to create different designs for the Contemptor. With the base design it can be easy for them to modify and get different variants out.

By this logic we should have 36 variants of wraithlord, 36 variants of scorpion superheavy tank, 36 variants of the lynx, 36 variants of the hornet.

The base design of each of those is very easy to get variants out. The lynx had two variants that were just revenant Titan gun swaps. If that had been a marine unit it would have gotten is own icon pack and unique Hull design for each new weapon...

It's not just that marines get a billion variants, it's that even when it's just a different version of the same unit they will put more time and energy into creating it. Xenos stuff comes out clearly by the numbers are a box tick.

Imperial titans get a numbered certificate when you buy them. Eldar titans get nothing and the Phantom is very expensive.


It's just an example of how even when they do produced something it doesn't get the kind of attention marine and imperial stuff get.

Hellebore wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You act like it would be hard for them to create different designs for the Contemptor. With the base design it can be easy for them to modify and get different variants out.

By this logic we should have 36 variants of wraithlord, 36 variants of scorpion superheavy tank, 36 variants of the lynx, 36 variants of the hornet.

The base design of each of those is very easy to get variants out. The lynx had two variants that were just revenant Titan gun swaps. If that had been a marine unit it would have gotten is own icon pack and unique Hull design for each new weapon...

It's not just that marines get a billion variants, it's that even when it's just a different version of the same unit they will put more time and energy into creating it. Xenos stuff comes out clearly by the numbers are a box tick.

Imperial titans get a numbered certificate when you buy them. Eldar titans get nothing and the Phantom is very expensive.


It's just an example of how even when they do produced something it doesn't get the kind of attention marine and imperial stuff get.

Seeing as Wraithlords weren't ever near as popular as Dreads nor do FW make Wraithlords in the first place, it makes sense there wouldn't be a bunch of variants?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Likely not.

What makes you say that? We're all thinking that the things they don't produce anymore are going to get cut, so why not things that they never produced?

Because it's Marines, simple as that.

I don't always agree with Slayer, but the man has a point.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Fine. How would you explain gw's decision to nerf so many of the fw super heavys in ca2018? We're things like fellblades really affecting the meta in a way that would explain that? Especially considering the timing? Perhaps in order to recoup the cost of new plastic moulds for the new models? The moulds for the units affected by ca were probably already paid for.

*shrug* It was a time when super heavies were scary and lots of people lacked a codex to make sense of them.

Easier for them to kick stuff off the table and try and deal with it later. GW has been trying to do too much and they tripped over themselves. Smaller units like contemptors are easy to point wrong and not get an over-sized impact like a super heavy - that is until the marine book went ape gak with dreadnoughts.

It wasn't the right thing for them to do, but they probably didn't have the time to even consider it. So this year instead of ~10 codexes we'll see PA and FW books and hopefully with more thought behind them, but likely still with errors and issues.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Hellebore wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You act like it would be hard for them to create different designs for the Contemptor. With the base design it can be easy for them to modify and get different variants out.

By this logic we should have 36 variants of wraithlord, 36 variants of scorpion superheavy tank, 36 variants of the lynx, 36 variants of the hornet.

The base design of each of those is very easy to get variants out. The lynx had two variants that were just revenant Titan gun swaps. If that had been a marine unit it would have gotten is own icon pack and unique Hull design for each new weapon...

It's not just that marines get a billion variants, it's that even when it's just a different version of the same unit they will put more time and energy into creating it. Xenos stuff comes out clearly by the numbers are a box tick.

Imperial titans get a numbered certificate when you buy them. Eldar titans get nothing and the Phantom is very expensive.


It's just an example of how even when they do produced something it doesn't get the kind of attention marine and imperial stuff get.

Seeing as Wraithlords weren't ever near as popular as Dreads nor do FW make Wraithlords in the first place, it makes sense there wouldn't be a bunch of variants?

That wasn't your argument. Your argument was that they were easy to make variants of because of their design. And FW. Does. They make the wraithseer.

At some point FW never made contemptors either, but they started.

The real reason is your third point. Popularity and its self fulfilling prophecy. If you had a choice between a car that came with a+ after market service, free detailing and extras vs a car you couldn't even get spare parts for, which would you choose?


AOS tried it's hardest to add space marines and yet they haven't dominated the miniature releases. Because popularity is only one part of it. Support and the public presentation of how you treat your products is also a massive driver of preference.

No one likes to be ignored - even space marine faction players who have more choice than all xenos armies combined complain when they don't get stuff.

Xenos players shouldn't feel greatful that they get anything, marine players should feel grateful their fellows are willing to become second class.citizens in 40K so.thst marines aren't just fighting each other forevermore.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Fine. How would you explain gw's decision to nerf so many of the fw super heavys in ca2018? We're things like fellblades really affecting the meta in a way that would explain that? Especially considering the timing? Perhaps in order to recoup the cost of new plastic moulds for the new models? The moulds for the units affected by ca were probably already paid for.

*shrug* It was a time when super heavies were scary and lots of people lacked a codex to make sense of them.

Easier for them to kick stuff off the table and try and deal with it later. GW has been trying to do too much and they tripped over themselves. Smaller units like contemptors are easy to point wrong and not get an over-sized impact like a super heavy - that is until the marine book went ape gak with dreadnoughts.

It wasn't the right thing for them to do, but they probably didn't have the time to even consider it. So this year instead of ~10 codexes we'll see PA and FW books and hopefully with more thought behind them, but likely still with errors and issues.

I guess we'll never know gw's reasoning behind the nerf due to their lack of transparency on their rules decisions. I just know it felt pretty arbitrary and unfair. Especially when knights started showing up everywhere. Ca2019 didn't help either by giving points drops to almost every non-knight super heavy (including the fw astreus) except the hellforged/relic models.

I just hope they'll finally fix it in the new fw books. And that we don't have to wait forever to get them. Of course that probably depends on how fast they sell their remaining ia books.