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Made in vn
Longtime Dakkanaut




That's a nice Killteam buff for them.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




New Galvanic Rifles are pretty decent for how I was using them before. The Arq is what I'm really interested in though.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in au
Krazed Killa Kan






Please rip the bandaid off and show us how bad our weapon option restrictions are now. I’m really happy with these weapon changes, but I’m quite anxious about the restrictions coming in, like DG and DEldar.
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Oh, that's fantastic. I was worried that the game wasn't deadly enough.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Oh, that's fantastic. I was worried that the game wasn't deadly enough.


A lot of it is just baking changes into the stat lines and making them more consistent, replacing bespoke rules. Instead of a special assault rule on heavy weapons, they are just assault weapons now. Rangers now have the AP consistently speeding up rolls, and more shots at range, but trade that for being heavy and thus less mobile.
   
Made in us
Exalted Beastlord




 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Oh, that's fantastic. I was worried that the game wasn't deadly enough.


Its pretty clear at this point that everyone is going to get adapted to the 2 Wound Space Marine era (which means the Chaos marines are going to come in in a kind of sad state, as they hit tables that are already adapted to them).

The big problem, that GW doesn't even seem vaguely aware of, is that vehicles and monsters are now made of paper. It was already a problem, but there's been some element of random swinginess to it with all the d6s. Now there's just so many D3+3 or d6+2 weapons running around that armored vehicles and 'big scary monsters' are simply a joke.


Huh. I was thinking of digging tyranids out and doing a medium bug focused force. I... don't think I will. Its just too easy to scoop out the chunky center and then mop up the little stuff.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/13 22:21:48


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




Tacoma, WA, USA

Voss wrote:
The big problem, that GW doesn't even seem vaguely aware of, is that vehicles and monsters are now made of paper. It was already a problem, but there's been some element of random swinginess to it with all the d6s. Now there's just so many D3+3 or d6+2 weapons running around that armored vehicles and 'big scary monsters' are simply a joke.
And the circular anti-tank weapon debate continues:

"My anti-tank weapons can't kill tanks fast enough."
"Here's some more powerful anti-tank weapons"
"My tanks are dying too fast."
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut




 alextroy wrote:
Voss wrote:
The big problem, that GW doesn't even seem vaguely aware of, is that vehicles and monsters are now made of paper. It was already a problem, but there's been some element of random swinginess to it with all the d6s. Now there's just so many D3+3 or d6+2 weapons running around that armored vehicles and 'big scary monsters' are simply a joke.
And the circular anti-tank weapon debate continues:

"My anti-tank weapons can't kill tanks fast enough."
"Here's some more powerful anti-tank weapons"
"My tanks are dying too fast."


Which is honestly only solvable by limiting the number of tanks/monsters and especially super-heavies.

If the anti-tank/tank balance is right so 2000 points of all-tanks/monsters/knights don't run roughshod over everything, having just 500 or 1000 points worth of them in a 2000 point game is usually moot. If the anti-tank/tank balance is right that, say, a single tank and 2 transport make comfortable, tough-enough anchor-points in a 2000 points army, skewing a list to be all-tanks/monsters/knights/etc.. will probably be OP as hell.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/13 22:25:46


 
   
Made in us
Exalted Beastlord




 alextroy wrote:
Voss wrote:
The big problem, that GW doesn't even seem vaguely aware of, is that vehicles and monsters are now made of paper. It was already a problem, but there's been some element of random swinginess to it with all the d6s. Now there's just so many D3+3 or d6+2 weapons running around that armored vehicles and 'big scary monsters' are simply a joke.
And the circular anti-tank weapon debate continues:

"My anti-tank weapons can't kill tanks fast enough."
"Here's some more powerful anti-tank weapons"
"My tanks are dying too fast."


That hasn't been a circle for quite a while. Gun output has been static until recently.
The problem has been way too much unpredictable random results, with both the current system and the old penetration/glancing system. Sometimes you can pound on tanks for ages, other times they pop in a couple shots.

But when you only need 2-3 successful hits from big guns (which frankly now come in the numbers of 'lots'), and 4 from a special weapon that you can take 3/squad (and rapid fires) to kill a battle tank, you've pretty clearly gone too far.
Think about how many torsion cannons and cognis lascannons you can just drop into an Ad Mech list. One's a troops choice, for crying out loud! And the new arc rifle is just something you can toss onto the cheap units and its absurdly effective AT. Plus yeah, all the non-AT weapons that win by weight of dice.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/14 01:55:30


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 alextroy wrote:
And the circular anti-tank weapon debate continues:

"My anti-tank weapons can't kill tanks fast enough."
"Here's some more powerful anti-tank weapons"
"My tanks are dying too fast."
It's only circular if you don't understand what the problem is.

Tanks are too easy to kill, and there are too many mid-strength mid-damage multi-shot weapons making AT weapons a waste of time because you're better off with the smaller stuff as you just put out more shots. Rolling more dice = more likely to get a good result.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in us
Tough Tyrant Guard





IMO the reason why tanks & monsters are as squishy as they are is because GW went over their S10 cap over and over, but never their t10 (really 8) cap. If Land Raiders were t12 w16 2+, holy heck that's gonna be tough to crack. A great opportunity for stat granularity came and went in the blink of an eye. Unfortunately, this will never change. But as someone who loves their Ryza AdMech, I'll laugh in binary as everything burns to ash.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






StarHunter25 wrote:
IMO the reason why tanks & monsters are as squishy as they are is because GW went over their S10 cap over and over, but never their t10 (really 8) cap. If Land Raiders were t12 w16 2+, holy heck that's gonna be tough to crack. A great opportunity for stat granularity came and went in the blink of an eye. Unfortunately, this will never change. But as someone who loves their Ryza AdMech, I'll laugh in binary as everything burns to ash.


Agreed. It actually got worse at the high ends- titans dropped in toughness by a ton. Warlords went from T16 down to T9. With damage becoming more reliable, toughness needs to go up for mid and high end vehicles. Before, AV 14 Land Raiders took 4 results of a 5+ on a S9 Lascannon to kill. Now the lascannon does 4-6 damage a shot vs 16 wounds T8, 3 or 4 hits wounding on 3+ will do the job. Going to T12 for heavy vehicles would also help smooth out the S6 vs S7 transition a bit as well. Land Raiders, Monoliths, Tyrannofex scale monsters, Baneblades ar T12, Russes, Battlewagons, carnifexes and greater daemons at T10, most tanks and monsters in the T 8-9 range. Transports at 7-8. Light vehicles at 6-7, up from 5 or 6 now.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Oh, that's fantastic. I was worried that the game wasn't deadly enough.


Well just so you can sleep well, they are making sure the ad mech is deadlier than ever before ! You'll have the whole seat to read the codex, but you'll only need the EDGE !!!!
   
Made in gb
Enginseer with a Wrench





Northumberland



Saw this pop up on reddit this morning as a potential leak for the combat patrol.

Was sort of expecting the marshal to be in it as opposed to an enginseer.

One and a half feet in the hobby


My Adeptus Mechanicus Painting Log:
# The Explorator Fleet of Labrunnia IX #

 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Put the new hotness in the new box? Can't imagine them doing that.

At least it's not a Tech-Priest Dominus mini. I'm no longer sure how many of those I own because of how they came just about in every box and bundle.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




Germany

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Put the new hotness in the new box? Can't imagine them doing that.

At least it's not a Tech-Priest Dominus mini. I'm no longer sure how many of those I own because of how they came just about in every box and bundle.


I mean, they removed them from the Start Collecting too

Games Workshop are not your friends. They are not a small dev trying their best. They are a multibillion dollar company making calculated decisions about how many costs they can cut, how lazy they can be about relases, and how much they can paywall. They will do it again. Stop giving them money for this. 
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block





That's a good box, 2 or 3 of them is a great way to start Ad Mech. Assuming its £85 like the previous ones, its a saving of £42.50 (if you believe the priest is worth the default £20 is another matter though).
   
Made in gb
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader





Seems good, reinforces what I originally thought about Combat Patrols, contrary to most, that they're good value ala Start Collecting, but different, making them a great buying opportunity for new players and veterans alike. Some of them haven't panned out that way but some definitely have (like this one, I'm not super fussed about those tracked servitors but the rest is spot on and the value seems to be the same as SC). Personally I'm now looking forward to GSC, I assume it'll still be a long time off but will maybe include a Rockgrinder. I'm doen buying SC GSC, it being my favourite one I bought a few of them, but I'll potentially buy a CP GSC, which is a positive for both myself and GW. So yeah, I still think the CP (or SC mkii if you like) sets are a good idea whose value depends heavily on what they choose to include, and not, as some people will say, and inferior, more expensive, more cynical version of SC.
   
Made in us
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot





 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Put the new hotness in the new box? Can't imagine them doing that.

At least it's not a Tech-Priest Dominus mini. I'm no longer sure how many of those I own because of how they came just about in every box and bundle.

To be fair, didn't the last Mechanicus SC include the Not-Higgins boat?

Makes sense they'd including the Tech-Priest, since none was buying those over the old metal Guard one for less than half the price.

I still think Combat Patrol(tm) boxes are worse than a Start Collecting for actually functioning as starter boxes, since the novelty of the latter was they're relatively cheap 'n cheerful compared to the rest of the hobby for what you get. Cranking the price up higher is more likely to give Mrs Jacobs a heart attack when she sees the pound signs and tell Lil Timmy he's getting a video game instead.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/24 11:36:38


 
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Right behind you.

Frankly, I think this one just isn't great. Nobody complained about the prices on Skitarii--it's the Electropriests and Kataphrons that are the issue for a $$$ perspective.

I would far, far rather have seen this as a Dominus+Kataphron+Electropriests box, with either Priests or Kataphron doubled up.
   
Made in fi
Dakka Veteran




Vihti, Finland

- Dunewalke 60€/45£
- Skitarii 35€/27.50£
- Kataphron 46€/35£
- Enginseer 25€/20£
Total: 166€/127.50£

So that set does save money but I think there could be better choices for box content.


Although I will recommend getting AM current getting started set if possible before that drops.
   
Made in gb
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader





So the criticisms are that this box isn't 100% optimal? With respect, that will never be the case, because as soon as this box includes whatever exact units people want to see all bundled up for cheap, there becomes a new king of "This is too expensive because it isn't in a value box" (ie Serberys for AdMech, they'll be eligible for a value box eventually and people will say "This box would be better with Serberys because currently there's no way to buy Serberys at a discount"). The only way to please literally everyone would be to include every option in some sort of discount buy, aka a range-wide price reduction.
   
Made in gb
Enginseer with a Wrench





Northumberland

I think it's more the fact that this is barely 500 points, and I thought the idea was that each combat patrol was at least enough to play a game. I assume the points of various units will be going up with the new codex.

One and a half feet in the hobby


My Adeptus Mechanicus Painting Log:
# The Explorator Fleet of Labrunnia IX #

 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




Germany

So. It's basically a rehash of the previous start collecting, but with 3 (count 'em) more minis, that's presumably gonna cost twice as much? Is this why they replaced the previous Start Collecting so recently?

Games Workshop are not your friends. They are not a small dev trying their best. They are a multibillion dollar company making calculated decisions about how many costs they can cut, how lazy they can be about relases, and how much they can paywall. They will do it again. Stop giving them money for this. 
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Right behind you.

I'm not going to pretend to speak for anyone else.

For me? It's the lack of a 'theme' in the box. Compare this to the Drukhari, Death Guard, or Space Wolves sets. They all have a kind of 'theme' going through them. Drukhari is Kabal with a token squad of Incubi, Death Guard is Typhus+some Plague Marines with some Zombie buddies, and Space Wolves is a hunting pack with some Hounds of Morkai and an Invictor.

This just feels like they took the previous Start Collectings, removed the Skorpius from the most recent and removed the Dominus from the first one, and threw in Kataphron before calling it a day.

It actually is disheartening to see such little thought put into it...and it bodes poorly for the Datasmiths getting put into HQ, which they should be if Enginseers are HQ choices, as that could have been a 3 kit box if they'd gone Kataphrons+Kastelans+Electropriests--bam, the trifecta of overpriced Cult products in one go!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Olthannon wrote:
I think it's more the fact that this is barely 500 points, and I thought the idea was that each combat patrol was at least enough to play a game. I assume the points of various units will be going up with the new codex.

This too!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/24 14:40:12


 
   
Made in gb
Secretive Dark Angels Veteran






 MajorWesJanson wrote:
StarHunter25 wrote:
IMO the reason why tanks & monsters are as squishy as they are is because GW went over their S10 cap over and over, but never their t10 (really 8) cap. If Land Raiders were t12 w16 2+, holy heck that's gonna be tough to crack. A great opportunity for stat granularity came and went in the blink of an eye. Unfortunately, this will never change. But as someone who loves their Ryza AdMech, I'll laugh in binary as everything burns to ash.


Agreed. It actually got worse at the high ends- titans dropped in toughness by a ton. Warlords went from T16 down to T9. With damage becoming more reliable, toughness needs to go up for mid and high end vehicles. Before, AV 14 Land Raiders took 4 results of a 5+ on a S9 Lascannon to kill. Now the lascannon does 4-6 damage a shot vs 16 wounds T8, 3 or 4 hits wounding on 3+ will do the job. Going to T12 for heavy vehicles would also help smooth out the S6 vs S7 transition a bit as well. Land Raiders, Monoliths, Tyrannofex scale monsters, Baneblades ar T12, Russes, Battlewagons, carnifexes and greater daemons at T10, most tanks and monsters in the T 8-9 range. Transports at 7-8. Light vehicles at 6-7, up from 5 or 6 now.


In addition to this, I think a version of the old double toughness rule of the strength of the weapon need to be brought in (usually would be unable to wound). I'd make it triple the toughness maybe, or if toughness is over double the weapon cannot wound it. There really is zero reason bolt rifles should be able to hose down multiple wounds on nearly any armoured vehicle, let alone the heavier ones. The only issue is mid tier strength, high output weapons. Heck, I'd reintroduce the old wounding mechanic wholesale personally, I think that alone would solve a lot of problems, though many vehicles do need a shunt up in toughness still.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Kanluwen wrote:
I'm not going to pretend to speak for anyone else.

For me? It's the lack of a 'theme' in the box. Compare this to the Drukhari, Death Guard, or Space Wolves sets. They all have a kind of 'theme' going through them. Drukhari is Kabal with a token squad of Incubi, Death Guard is Typhus+some Plague Marines with some Zombie buddies, and Space Wolves is a hunting pack with some Hounds of Morkai and an Invictor.

This just feels like they took the previous Start Collectings, removed the Skorpius from the most recent and removed the Dominus from the first one, and threw in Kataphron before calling it a day.

It actually is disheartening to see such little thought put into it...and it bodes poorly for the Datasmiths getting put into HQ, which they should be if Enginseers are HQ choices, as that could have been a 3 kit box if they'd gone Kataphrons+Kastelans+Electropriests--bam, the trifecta of overpriced Cult products in one go!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Olthannon wrote:
I think it's more the fact that this is barely 500 points, and I thought the idea was that each combat patrol was at least enough to play a game. I assume the points of various units will be going up with the new codex.

This too!


I disagree, why be funnelled down a 'theme' with a start collecting box. It should be a good base for nearly any new starter to the army, no matter what direction they decide to take their army.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/24 15:06:07


My hobby instagram account: @the_shroud_of_vigilance
My Shroud of Vigilance Hobby update blog for me detailed updates and lore on the faction:
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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






The combat patrol isnt really exciting, but it is really functional. Enginseers are cheap HQs and can be used in Guard armies as well, so buying 2-3 of these doesnt leave you with extra characters just taking up space like Typhus
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Right behind you.

 endlesswaltz123 wrote:

I disagree, why be funnelled down a 'theme' with a start collecting box. It should be a good base for nearly any new starter to the army, no matter what direction they decide to take their army.

Then it fails miserably at that too, unless there are drastic changes to the way AdMech is going to function again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 MajorWesJanson wrote:
The combat patrol isnt really exciting, but it is really functional. Enginseers are cheap HQs and can be used in Guard armies as well, so buying 2-3 of these doesnt leave you with extra characters just taking up space like Typhus

And that's fundamentally what makes this a less than stellar box in my eyes. This isn't an "army in a box" or a genuine start to a collection. It's a glorified Start Collecting/discount box.

This is a wasted opportunity to put the more expensive Cult releases(Kataphron and Electropriests, notably) in alongside of a token HQ like the Enginseer(who is an Elite choice in Guard, as a reminder). Those items were wildly overpriced to begin with and still are.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/24 15:47:30


 
   
Made in fi
Ye Lord of The End Times (and a good guy)





 Olthannon wrote:
I think it's more the fact that this is barely 500 points, and I thought the idea was that each combat patrol was at least enough to play a game. I assume the points of various units will be going up with the new codex.


Goal is to have 25pl in it

2021 painted/bought: 538/575 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 Kanluwen wrote:
It's a glorified Start Collecting/discount box.
That's what these Combat Patrol boxes are. They're just a slightly increased barrier to entry containing a slightly larger group of minis than the SC! boxes.

The Blood Angel and Dark Eldar ones are, I believe, the only ones offering any real value. And on the opposite end of the spectrum you've got the Deathwatch one which doesn't actually come with a single Deathwatch mini, just Primaris and upgrade sprues, and the Death Guard one, that comes with a special character, an illegal choice of units, and 3 incomplete Plague Marines. These are not great boxes.

 Arbitrator wrote:
To be fair, didn't the last Mechanicus SC include the Not-Higgins boat?
 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
I mean, they removed them from the Start Collecting too
Hence why I said "just about in every box" rather than "in every box". This site already has one Irbis, who jumps into threads to nitpick the most innocuous and irrelevant details, often missing the context or meaning of what it is he's criticising. We don't need two more.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
 
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