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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
But then Bolters, known to kill Orks in droves, would need to be D2, and then... and then... and then...

TBH with regular -1 ap bolters would still kill orks in droves. They would kill half the ones they kill right now, but thats not even a bad thing.


And I have to say both 3+ and 4+ saves are, right now, very good saves. They are good enough to matter when you are in cover and vs most low ap stuff.

It might be the paint scheme, but the model does nothing for me.

They're just Skarboyz. The concept has existed forever, now they have dedicated models.

 Eonfuzz wrote:


I mean, high wounds low save is a fairly unique statline right? I don't think there's many (if any) models that follow that same concept.

hard pass. With how much Multi-dmg weaponry that is currently laying about I do not want ork boyz going to W2. Why? Simple. GW has almost never correctly priced an Ork Buff. A Space Marine tactical gained a host of buffs between 7th and 9th the biggest ones being the extra shot at max range, the extra attack in the 1st round, AP on their weapons depending on turn and the extra wound. All of their buffs combined they priced Tacticals at +3pts. In GW's estimations all of those incredible buffs come out to +3pts. Orkz have upgraded from +1 attack and +1 strength on the charge to just being S4 all the time, they lost movement and gained DDD(useless) and ere we go (good). All of those buffs they have priced at...2pts. If orkz gained a 2nd wound I will guarantee they increase the current price of boyz by at least 2 more points. And at 10ppm ork boyz would effectively be useless, and no offense but a 3+ save is generally worth significantly more than a 6+ save.

 alextroy wrote:


I figure defensively, the new Ork upgrade will be one of the following:

5+ Save

6+ Invulnerable Save

Toughness 5

Anything more than this and they are trodding on the ground they gave to the truly durable factions like Marines, Death Guard, and Necrons.

At 5+ save they take the role (sadly) of Eavy Armor Ard boyz who used to be 4+ save at S5 they are also taking the role of "Skar" boyz. I highly doubt they get a 6+ invuln as well as T5 but even if they did they would be priced terribly, honestly at that point they would probably try to jack the price up to 10-11pts per model.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Well if the Nob goes up to 3 wounds...

A nob was better than a tactical Space Marine in CC because it hit harder and had more wounds at a 4+ save. Historically even the Nob in a boyz mob had 4+ armor even when his boyz only had 6+. Now...not so much. The Nobz need to go to 3 wounds just in order to keep up with the ridiculous power creep from GW's rather idiotic decision to buff all Speese Mehreens to 2 wounds.

Jarms48 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
Wait? What? How does "not as durable as a Nob" translate into 2 Wound Beast Snagga Boyz?

Well if the Nob goes up to 3 wounds...

Wouldn't it be crazy if it went Grots 1 wound, Boyz 2 wounds, Snagga Boyz 3 wounds, Nobz 4 wounds, Mega Armoured Nobz 5 wounds?

Again...hard pass. I don't trust GW to correctly adjust points, and realistically 4 wound nobz would either be incredibly OP or more likely, hot garbage.

 some bloke wrote:

"While they’re not quite as durable as a Nob, they can certainly swing their choppas just as hard"

Meaning 1 wound, T4, S5.

This is my interpretation as well, the mention of "durable" as a nob to me also means they are likely going to T5 and nobz are as well. Its going to be interesting because one of the biggest drawbacks to boyz right now is that they lack offensive punch AND staying power, they only make up for these short comings by taking 100+ models and buffing characters like painboy/weirdboy.

 some bloke wrote:
"by necessity Beast Snagga Doks are some of the most ‘creative’ around"

Meaning lots of upgrades - I'm guessing squig parts and cybork. Could this be the long-anticipated return of gyrostabilised monowheels?

Could be, I was assuming the Painboy would get either an enhanced FNP role (5+ *Gasp) OR possibly get the Space Marine ability to resurrect dead boyz, maybe my stitching several dead together, like for every 2 dead boyz, on a 5+ resuscitate 1.

 some bloke wrote:
"it can be a good laugh seeing the Beast Snagga Boyz trying to harpoon giant tanks"
I hope this means some sort of boarding action for anti-tank. The idea of harpooning a tank, to my mind, implies having a big thing to mount a tank-harpoon onto. Please oh please oh please let it be a plastic squiggoth kit!!!
I expect thise to be expensive (money-wise), in mobs of 5-15, with several cybork or squig-bitz options for the unit, T4, S5, 1 wound.

I'm thinking this is their "rokket' powered spears we saw early.

All told i'm hoping for the best but based on previous releases I am assuming it won't be priced correctly. (Looking at you Squigbuggy...or as xenomancer calls it "Over powered")

 MinMax wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:
I mean, high wounds low save is a fairly unique statline right? I don't think there's many (if any) models that follow that same concept.

Chaos Spawn, Ogryns, Hellions, Drukhari beasts, most "medium" Tyranids (Lictors, Warriors, Raveners, ), all Swarms. To name a few...

hellions are still 8.5 points per wound, and Ogryns are like 10 I think. In order to truly claim a unit is going for that kind of a thing with their defenses, I'd think they'd need to have a lower points per wound than basic GEQ.

Chaos Spawn is the only "bag of flesh" type of unit I can really think of. And even then, they have a 5+ armor save. Because even the faction of bags of flesh of the literal "bag of flesh" god are full of FNP, Invuls, and other stuff.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Voss wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Tyranid Warriors have a 4+, which I wouldn't count as low. Raveners have a 5+ iirc though.

With current guns (and doctrines), I definitely count it as low.
AP is just way too wide-spread.

Well a 4+ is right in the middle between a 2+ and a 6+ so I dunno how you'd qualify 5,6 and 7 (I think Spore Mines have a 7+) if 4+ is low

It doesn't matter that its in the 'middle.' What matters is that its easily countered (5+ barely matters, and 6 and 7+ are functionally the same as nonexistent in many cases)

The current armor system only works if AP0 is actually the default for most armies. At this point, it isn't.

Voss wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Voss wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Tyranid Warriors have a 4+, which I wouldn't count as low. Raveners have a 5+ iirc though.

With current guns (and doctrines), I definitely count it as low.
AP is just way too wide-spread.

Well a 4+ is right in the middle between a 2+ and a 6+ so I dunno how you'd qualify 5,6 and 7 (I think Spore Mines have a 7+) if 4+ is low

It doesn't matter that its in the 'middle.' What matters is that its easily countered.

The current armor system only works if AP0 is actually the default for most armies. At this point, it isn't.

which is why I do not want Ork boyz to get a 2nd wound nor a better armor save because the meta is designed to fight against SMs right now and by bringing Ork boyz into the same category of defensive traits as SM orkz will suffer because they will not have the same durability per point and will absolutely not have the same level of damage output.

 jeff white wrote:
New ork sculpts are meh at best. Boar boys should be easy stand-ins unless GW do their magic IP dance and make beastsnaggas somehow difficult to convert, such as needing a snot or grot passenger or some odd weapon the boar boyz didn’t carry.

GW shenanigans are in such bad faith. Evil mean spirited money grabbers suck the enthusiasm from older hobbyists especially. Just gets so tiresome with the fanbois saying yeay and the people who have been around to see such bad faith in action for so many years saying nay.

Meanwhile it is obvious that GW is acting in bad faith by the divisiveness they cause. Most people blame the hobbyists who complain but I blame GW money grabbers.

They are definitely 2 wounds with a 2++ and in cover with invisibility. Whatever happens with these orks, the money grabbers at GW have definitely benn primaricized... yuck.

Been around for near 30 years now and I have no idea what you're on about, but you clearly have a bone to pick with almost every single post.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Eonfuzz wrote:


Sorta Kinda?
Was the unit asspulled out of new lore? Check

What good is a massive universe with billions of planets if you can't find new things within it?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:
They're just Skarboyz. The concept has existed forever, now they have dedicated models.

I think they're going to have a FNP, too with some sort of special dok boost on top.

As if they weren’t tough enough already, the frequent and plentiful injuries that come as part of any career in squig-wrangling* mean frequent trips to the Dok, and by necessity Beast Snagga Doks are some of the most ‘creative’ around.

Dakkadakka during a Marine release: "Will someone think about the Xenos?"

Dakkadakka during a Xenos release: "Why they couldn't leave the Xenos alone?".

Yes good Primaris Orks, next up are Primaris Guardians, Primaris Aspect Warriors, Primaris Wraith constructs, Primaris Guardsmen, Primaris Ogryns, Primaris Ratlings and much more Primaris

If they look the part, let them come.

Voss wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Voss wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Tyranid Warriors have a 4+, which I wouldn't count as low. Raveners have a 5+ iirc though.

With current guns (and doctrines), I definitely count it as low.
AP is just way too wide-spread.

Well a 4+ is right in the middle between a 2+ and a 6+ so I dunno how you'd qualify 5,6 and 7 (I think Spore Mines have a 7+) if 4+ is low

It doesn't matter that its in the 'middle.' What matters is that its easily countered (5+ barely matters, and 6 and 7+ are functionally the same as nonexistent in many cases)

The current armor system only works if AP0 is actually the default for most armies. At this point, it isn't.

Since saves can also be buffed by simply sitting in cover I heartily disagree.

 Tyran wrote:
Dakkadakka during a Marine release: "Will someone think about the Xenos?"

Dakkadakka during a Xenos release: "Why they couldn't leave the Xenos alone?".

I openly admit I am jaded in this regard LOL. I've watched GW push out Imperial Knights and in the next breath go "Here you go orkz, have these Orkanaughts and shut up, they are just as good". I've watched GW push out Plasma inceptors and hellblasters in the same edition that they take the inferior flashgitz and nerf them.

As far as the casual neglect, I remember GW brought out all the armies to an Adepticon (think it was 2018) but they didn't bring out an Ork army. When asked why they hadn't brought out the Ork army GW's PR people said "It genuinely is because the studio Ork army is not 4,000 points! No conspiracy theory here - that's the truth! We do love Orks too... trust us!"

So yes, I am a bit jaded so please forgive me for my negativity in regards to this. If GW surprises me I'll be the first to admit I was wrong, I just don't trust them, especially since they apparently don't even have anyone on their staff who plays orkz on the regular. Not to mention I still haven't forgiven them for not giving us a new codex for all of 5th, all of 6th and than giving us arguably the worst codex by far in 7th and than making us wait to be basically the last major faction to get an 8th edition codex before ramping up to 8.5

Caradman Sturnn wrote:
Yes good Primaris Orks, next up are Primaris Guardians, Primaris Aspect Warriors, Primaris Wraith constructs, Primaris Guardsmen, Primaris Ogryns, Primaris Ratlings and much more Primaris

The Imperial Guard is hilarious in this regard.

Guardsmen are just Primaris Conscripts.
Veterans are just Primaris Guardsmen.
Tempestus Scions are just a Primaris Veterans.
Bullgrins are just Primaris Ogryns.

 Tyran wrote:

Caradman Sturnn wrote:
Yes good Primaris Orks, next up are Primaris Guardians, Primaris Aspect Warriors, Primaris Wraith constructs, Primaris Guardsmen, Primaris Ogryns, Primaris Ratlings and much more Primaris

The Imperial Guard is hilarious in this regard.

Guardsmen are just Primaris Conscripts.
Veterans are just Primaris Guardsmen.
Tempestus Scions are just a Primaris Veterans.
Bullgrins are just Primaris Ogryns.

That's why Primaris are a silly idea in the first place. Marines already had multiple tiers of capability from Scout to Terminator. Primaris are a shoehorned-in side-grade (for $$$).

 Insectum7 wrote:

That's why Primaris are a silly idea in the first place. Marines already had multiple tiers of capability from Scout to Terminator. Primaris are a shoehorned-in side-grade (for $$$).

And Orks have the design space for middle tier troops between Boys and Nobz, they are not Space Marines who have been over-saturated.

 Tyran wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

That's why Primaris are a silly idea in the first place. Marines already had multiple tiers of capability from Scout to Terminator. Primaris are a shoehorned-in side-grade (for $$$).

And Orks have the design space for middle tier troops between Boys and Nobz, they are not Space Marines who have been over-saturated.

SkarBoyz and 'Ard Boyz?

 Insectum7 wrote:
SkarBoyz and 'Ard Boyz?

Neither are real units, but stratagem upgrades for Boyz. SkarBoyz are also sub-faction locked.

 Tyran wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
SkarBoyz and 'Ard Boyz?

Neither are real units...

They were before they were cut...

 Lord Damocles wrote:

They were before they were cut...

And the Doom of Malant'ai once was an unit and was cut, yet I'm still glad I have the Neurothrope.

Or the original mycetic spores that were cut and replaced by Tyrannocytes.

It wouldn't be the first time GW introduced a new unit to fill a spot left by a discontinued one.

 Tyran wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
SkarBoyz and 'Ard Boyz?

Neither are real units, but stratagem upgrades for Boyz. SkarBoyz are also sub-faction locked.

Well that's stupid. They should just be real units like they used to be.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Well that's stupid. They should just be real units like they used to be.

Hence the Snagga Boys, who are likely repackaged Skarboyz.

 Tyran wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Well that's stupid. They should just be real units like they used to be.

Hence the Snagga Boys, who are likely repackaged Skarboyz.

Heheh, well that looks to fall into the category of classic GW then. "You wanted old unit X back? How about we give you this brand new different unit Y instead!" Which is kinda totally "Primaris".

GW: We see our customers spending hours and hours of extra time "truescaling" their marine models. Instead of upscaling the current line, we'll introduce a whole new, different type of Marine. Wheeeee!!!

If these wind up being "feral Orks" I'm all for it, mind you. But talk about "design space" seems a little odd when these other units used to exist (and still do apparently, even if they're a CP unlock rather than a unique datasheet.) Hopefully Skarboyz and 'ard Boyz wind up as datasheets in the same way that Veteran Intercessors wound up as datasheets in the 9th ed codex.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Tyran wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Well that's stupid. They should just be real units like they used to be.

Hence the Snagga Boys, who are likely repackaged Skarboyz.

Heheh, well that looks to fall into the category of classic GW then. "You wanted old unit X back? How about we give you this brand new different unit Y instead!" Which is kinda totally "Primaris".

GW: We see our customers spending hours and hours of extra time "truescaling" their marine models. Instead of upscaling the current line, we'll introduce a whole new, different type of Marine. Wheeeee!!!

If these wind up being "feral Orks" I'm all for it, mind you. But talk about "design space" seems a little odd when these other units used to exist (and still do apparently, even if they're a CP unlock rather than a unique datasheet.) Hopefully Skarboyz and 'ard Boyz wind up as datasheets in the same way that Veteran Intercessors wound up as datasheets in the 9th ed codex.

Why does it matter if they're called Skarboyz or Beast Snagga boyz? Getting hung up on the name is silly.

Because they're not the same thing, and a lot of people care about the lore as much as the game and miniatures.

 Tyran wrote:
Dakkadakka during a Marine release: "Will someone think about the Xenos?"

Dakkadakka during a Xenos release: "Why they couldn't leave the Xenos alone?".

It seems that at Dakka, being disingenuous is less of skill and more of an art.

 Crimson wrote:

Why does it matter if they're called Skarboyz or Beast Snagga boyz? Getting hung up on the name is silly.

Am I hung up on a name? It's not clear to me that they're actually a replacement for Skarboyz. Skarboyz might still be a thing.

Also Skarboyz is a cooler name.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Heheh, well that looks to fall into the category of classic GW then. "You wanted old unit X back? How about we give you this brand new different unit Y instead!" Which is kinda totally "Primaris".

GW: We see our customers spending hours and hours of extra time "truescaling" their marine models. Instead of upscaling the current line, we'll introduce a whole new, different type of Marine. Wheeeee!!!

If these wind up being "feral Orks" I'm all for it, mind you. But talk about "design space" seems a little odd when these other units used to exist (and still do apparently, even if they're a CP unlock rather than a unique datasheet.) Hopefully Skarboyz and 'ard Boyz wind up as datasheets in the same way that Veteran Intercessors wound up as datasheets in the 9th ed codex.

It is classic GW in the sense that it is something they have done long before the Primaris, see my Tyranids examples above: Doom of Malant'ai -> Neurothrope, Mycetic Spore -> Tyrannocyte.

The issue with the Primaris isn't that they were an old unit brought back, but that they exist alongside the old units, plus the thematic inconsistencies with the established lore (which is different from simply being new lore).

I mean, the Primaris are better Marines that were created with innovation, when the whole point of the IoM's technology is that it is pure dogmatic stupidity that couldn't innovate itself out of a paper bag (see the Nova Cannon's building sized projectiles being manually loaded with manpower), so GW had to create an entirely new character who is basically an heretek with a secret army out of nowhere to justify the Primaris.

Beast Snaggas are simply Orks with a monster fetish and at least IMHO that has no issue coexisting with established Ork lore.

SemperMortis wrote:

 alextroy wrote:


I figure defensively, the new Ork upgrade will be one of the following:

5+ Save

6+ Invulnerable Save

Toughness 5

Anything more than this and they are trodding on the ground they gave to the truly durable factions like Marines, Death Guard, and Necrons.

At 5+ save they take the role (sadly) of Eavy Armor Ard boyz who used to be 4+ save at S5 they are also taking the role of "Skar" boyz. I highly doubt they get a 6+ invuln as well as T5 but even if they did they would be priced terribly, honestly at that point they would probably try to jack the price up to 10-11pts per model.

You have a right to be jaded, but GW's 9th Edition track record has been lots of small buffs to units at no cost increase. I can totally see GW just giving the average Ork a 5+ Save, upgrading DDD to and extra hit on 6's, and changing Green Tide to be +1 attack while there are 10+ models in the unit all while leaving Ork Boyz at 8 points a model. Look at how much they buffed Drukari Kabalite Warriors at no price increase.

I see the other two defensive buffs as less possible, but I doubt they will leave Boyz at 8 points a model with no increase to defenses. It just doesn't seem to fit the current power paradigm.

 Tyran wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Heheh, well that looks to fall into the category of classic GW then. "You wanted old unit X back? How about we give you this brand new different unit Y instead!" Which is kinda totally "Primaris".

GW: We see our customers spending hours and hours of extra time "truescaling" their marine models. Instead of upscaling the current line, we'll introduce a whole new, different type of Marine. Wheeeee!!!

If these wind up being "feral Orks" I'm all for it, mind you. But talk about "design space" seems a little odd when these other units used to exist (and still do apparently, even if they're a CP unlock rather than a unique datasheet.) Hopefully Skarboyz and 'ard Boyz wind up as datasheets in the same way that Veteran Intercessors wound up as datasheets in the 9th ed codex.

It is classic GW in the sense that it is something they have done long before the Primaris, see my Tyranids examples above: Doom of Malant'ai -> Neurothrope, Mycetic Spore -> Tyrannocyte.

The issue with the Primaris isn't that they were an old unit brought back, but that they exist alongside the old units, plus the thematic inconsistencies with the established lore (which is different from simply being new lore).

The Doom was a Special Character, I'm not sure the Neurothrope is a replacement in that sense. That'd be like Old One Eye becoming "Generic Carnifex Character" and being able to take multiple of them. I think the Mycetic Spore only existed for one edition prior to the transformation to the Tyrannocyte, so there's not much legacy there.

Skarboyz existed for decades (and still exist as an upgrade).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tyran wrote:

Beast Snaggas are simply Orks with a monster fetish and at least IMHO that has no issue coexisting with established Ork lore.

Like I said Feral Orks get a +1 from me.