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Do you want more Primarchs in 40k?
Yes, gimme more Primarchs
No, I don't want more Primarchs
Maybe, I don't care either way

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Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




So I don't understand the problem. Eldar players have all their FW and non FW models to play with, and marine players are , as it seems, still waiting for their primarchs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
yukishiro1 wrote:
Yeah, it would have been fine to make most of them a head taller or whatever like they are "supposed" to be, but making them 1.5x-2x as tall is just dumb.


I don't know what people are feed around your place, but here people generaly don't grow to be 4M tall like Vulkan or short of 4M like Magnus.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/09 17:25:38


If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in fr
Secret Inquisitorial Eldar Xenexecutor





France

Why would anyone want to have a primarch in 40k is beyond me, but why not half the Imperium following a traitorous, let's say warm aster and waging war to Terra ?
Oh wait, like the primarch being alive, it's called The Horus Heresy...


   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

The Eldar Range is not nearly as fleshed out as the Marine one, Karol.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





The playable primarchs embody most of the worst elements of current 40k development:

-Big, bloated, "centerpiece" models that become impossible to balance as they careen between "so scary they must be nuked immediately turn 1" and "not worth their huge points cost when they'll be nuked turn 1"

-Near legendary leaders responsible for thousands of planets across the galaxy showing up for minor skirmishes with orks

-The shift in focus from the huge scale of far-future interstellar armies and navies, to WWE style slapfights between giant manbabies in armor

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Hankovitch wrote:


-Near legendary leaders responsible for thousands of planets across the galaxy showing up for minor skirmishes with orks and dying in said minor skirmishes more often than that



Completely agree with your post, but augmented to show just how absurd the situation truly is. If 40k lore reflected the game we have today, Guilliman would have died a month or two after being resurrected, probably by being shot down by some Iron Hands Aggressors.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




NE Ohio, USA

Racerguy180 wrote:
Karol wrote:
Do eldar even have 30k rules and models?

Every eldar model (-ynarri) are 30k models


But are there RULES for playing anything but Imperial & Chaos?
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon




San Jose, CA

Couldn't you just use 7th Ed codex since the rules are supposedly the same.
   
Made in fr
Secret Inquisitorial Eldar Xenexecutor





France

I do not think 30k eldars, which are just post Fall, are or should be the same as 10,000 years later craftworlds elders, even if they are described as such in Fulgrim

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/10 10:01:22


   
Made in ca
Drop Trooper with Demo Charge



Canada

I don't care as long as I have promethium for my flamers and xenos to burn.

Imperial Guard - 1500 GSC - 250  
   
Made in us
Hardened Veteran Guardsman





 JNAProductions wrote:
...A lot of Eldar models are in pretty big need of updates-it's frustrating that so much attention is lavished upon Marines when other lines have much older models.

No, for this reason (amongst others already discussed). GW have far more important things to do than worry about Primarchs.

Maybe this is the decrepitude of (middle) age robbing me of my memory, but I can't recall there being any real-world reason to have the Primarchs return. The fluff didn't feel like it was any less for these demigods being present only in myth and nightmare (slight exception for Daemon Primarchs returning during something climactic like the 13th Black Crusade to firmly bury the "how are we?" dial in the 11+ range), and I never felt like the game needed something akin to a Primarch, either. Sure, GW doesn't need explicit reason to do any given thing, but I'd expect at least some rationale behind so major a change.
   
Made in us
Warp-Screaming Noise Marine




Australia

 waefre_1 wrote:
Sure, GW doesn't need explicit reason to do any given thing, but I'd expect at least some rationale behind so major a change.


$$$. 30k sold well, as do big centrepiece models, and people obsess over Primarchs. That's all there is to it

Emperor's Children
The Fourth Seal  
   
Made in gb
Esteemed Veteran Space Marine




UK

Does every thread have to descend into a “Eldar have an old model line” cry fest?

We get it. Eldar need an update. But it doesn’t need to derail every blooming discussion.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/09 21:16:55


 
   
Made in gb
Tinkering Tech-Priest





I confess I'm often puzzled by the lines people draw for themselves in terms of what they want/don't want to see in 40K. Or maybe not the 'lines' themselves so much, but the force behind those opinions?

You see it a lot around the inclusion of Primarchs and LoW's especially, and as a Knight player, I completely get it - they're not for everyone and can cause a certain amount of disruption to some games. (Conversely, it does get a little bit tiresome feeling as though you have to apologise for enjoying a particular army at times).

40K though, is a framework of rules at the end of the day. Don't want to see Primarchs or other units on the table? Don't include them in your games right? Everyone can be happy here. Those who want infantry only experiences (and it is a little silly seeing G-man taking on 2 squads of Ork boyz... but it's probably silly seeing Space Marines in the same situation that said), can have that, those who enjoy the centrepiece models can do likewise. About the only place where you'll just have to put up with the status quo is the competitive arena, but Primarchs showing up are likely the least of your worries there.

Nothing stopping people running their own events with preset limitations also.
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




 JNAProductions wrote:
The Eldar Range is not nearly as fleshed out as the Marine one, Karol.

That kind of a depends where you buy him. Most polish and russian recasts are very good, no flash, crisp detail, often better then the ones sold by GW with their softish wierd resin.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






 StrayIight wrote:
I confess I'm often puzzled by the lines people draw for themselves in terms of what they want/don't want to see in 40K. Or maybe not the 'lines' themselves so much, but the force behind those opinions?

You see it a lot around the inclusion of Primarchs and LoW's especially, and as a Knight player, I completely get it - they're not for everyone and can cause a certain amount of disruption to some games. (Conversely, it does get a little bit tiresome feeling as though you have to apologise for enjoying a particular army at times).

40K though, is a framework of rules at the end of the day. Don't want to see Primarchs or other units on the table? Don't include them in your games right? Everyone can be happy here. Those who want infantry only experiences (and it is a little silly seeing G-man taking on 2 squads of Ork boyz... but it's probably silly seeing Space Marines in the same situation that said), can have that, those who enjoy the centrepiece models can do likewise. About the only place where you'll just have to put up with the status quo is the competitive arena, but Primarchs showing up are likely the least of your worries there.

Nothing stopping people running their own events with preset limitations also.


At least to me this is a fluff issue, not a game issue. I don't want loyalist Primarchs returning in the lore.

Only the insane have strength enough to prosper. Only those who prosper may truly judge what is sane. 
   
Made in gb
Tinkering Tech-Priest





 Crimson wrote:

At least to me this is a fluff issue, not a game issue. I don't want loyalist Primarchs returning in the lore.


Fair enough definitely. The return of RG, the Primaris arrival, and all the 'Deus ex Machina' surrounding the episode was accompanied with many an eye roll from a good number of us I suspect - myself included.

The fluff unfortunately is the one thing we have no real control over. Other than creating personal head canon.
   
Made in us
Poisonous Tomb Scorpion





mrFickle wrote:
But by introducing fulgrim or a grin you are creating 2 new armies where as a loyalist primarch is just another big buff to SM that have had a huge upgrade project.

But I do take your point and I would also ask should you count abbadon at primarch level. Not fluff wise but stat wise.

Also one of the new SOB models looks like it will have guilliman level stats


The answer is to release 2 at the same time. For example Fulgrim and his children, but put Fulgrim in a box where he faces off against the Lion or Vulkan or something. Problem solved.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 StrayIight wrote:
 Crimson wrote:

At least to me this is a fluff issue, not a game issue. I don't want loyalist Primarchs returning in the lore.


Fair enough definitely. The return of RG, the Primaris arrival, and all the 'Deus ex Machina' surrounding the episode was accompanied with many an eye roll from a good number of us I suspect - myself included.

The fluff unfortunately is the one thing we have no real control over. Other than creating personal head canon.


40K needs to be Sigmar'd so that we can bring an end to this "constrained by the lore" crap that keeps innovation down. If they did an End Times for 40K, and rebranded I'd be willing to consider coming back.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/09 23:52:36


 
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






Togusa wrote:

40K needs to be Sigmar'd so that we can bring an end to this "constrained by the lore" crap that keeps innovation down. If they did an End Times for 40K, and rebranded I'd be willing to consider coming back.

Sure, I could get onboard with that. I suggest that in the reboot we can just get rid of the concept of primarchs altogether and make marines again to be gritty penal legionaries like they were in the Rogue Trader.

Only the insane have strength enough to prosper. Only those who prosper may truly judge what is sane. 
   
Made in us
Powerful Pegasus Knight





All primarchs do is condense the vast universe of suffering and war down to a cast of comic book / soap opra characters. No thank you.
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




If you cannot write good stories and characters within the setting and universe you have, then it’s not a issue of constrained by the lore, just bad writing.

40k has plenty of space to expand and delve into without having to resort to easy nostalgia grabs. Just GW being increasingly uncreative with 40k.
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

Karol wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
The Eldar Range is not nearly as fleshed out as the Marine one, Karol.

That kind of a depends where you buy him. Most polish and russian recasts are very good, no flash, crisp detail, often better then the ones sold by GW with their softish wierd resin.
The entire Corsair line.
The entire Exodite line.

Marines have enough units (models and rules) for several armies.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





If Games Workshop produces more Primarchs... will I buy them?

...

Spoiler:

 Galef wrote:
If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Sledgehammer wrote:
All primarchs do is condense the vast universe of suffering and war down to a cast of comic book / soap opra characters. No thank you.


But his has been ongoing for a long time, every new release of rules for an SM chapter defines a growing list of a small number of players in a massive galaxy.

I’d rather have lots of lore and one SM codex so I can just paint my models the chapter of my choosing and play it out however I see fit.

It’s the argument against names characters across all armies. D&D is great because you create your own characters but GW doesn’t really have that kind of open play.

I’ve never quite understood the psychology of collection as a hobby but it is a huge factor in GW products and people prefer to collect “things” with names, personalities and stories. Probably because it more fun than coming up worth it your self
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





I think make sure all 4 Chaos Specific are back and bring back 1 more loyalist. Then that way it keeps the grim dark theme of 4 v 2. I'm not overly bothered though if they don't bring any more back as I don't think they benefit the game and would prefer the time put into being able to customise my own home-brewed characters again (a-la 3rd ed CSM).

TBF though, more Primarchs are WAY down on my list of wishes. I don't even play half the xeno factions but, by all means, give them some love first.

Despite that, I can see the hold up with the 9th CSM codex being that they're possibly prepping to split off EC and WE who I am guessing are going to come with Primarchs.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/10 10:04:12


- 10,000 pts CSM  
   
Made in gb
Shas'la with Pulse Carbine




Eastern Fringe

No. They are in HH for a reason. GW should be careful trying to cater to the general popular desires. People are dumb and if you blindly just give them what they think they want they tend to ruin the thing that made it good in the first place, then they turn on the developers for not being creative.

The first rule of unarmed combat is: don’t be unarmed. 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




 Hollow wrote:
No. They are in HH for a reason. GW should be careful trying to cater to the general popular desires. People are dumb and if you blindly just give them what they think they want they tend to ruin the thing that made it good in the first place, then they turn on the developers for not being creative.


But GW already gave people their ghazhguls, ctans, great demons etc Why wouldn't marine players want their versions of such models?


I’ve never quite understood the psychology of collection as a hobby but it is a huge factor in GW products and people prefer to collect “things” with names, personalities and stories.

You mean like reconstruction guys obsessing over the right colour of a sleave or lenght of a lampas, or people memorising all the officer cadre line up of an army the play. People like structure and order. There are few people who like chaos of a free for all freedom.
Plus if setting stops to have rules and pillars that support it, and ends goes the way of ,everything can happen, it just dies.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut







I voted no.

I play 30k, and the Primarchs there feel like Primarchs. You have to adjust your battle plan around them, and each one's strengths and weaknesses are different. My Chaos Daemons win against them in tense duels with my Archdaemon (primarch-scale lord of war) or by avoiding them / tying them down.

In 40k, a regular daemon prince can bonk RG on the head to death. I have probably killed RG in 40k more than in 30k, because of how much more lethal 40k is. At some point it's just like:

"Before you stands Robot Guilliman, veteran of a thousand wars, tactician and strategist peerless. Here are some of his latest accomplishments:

*Beaten to death with 26 other marines on Table 5.
*Merc'd on Table 12 by Harlequin bikers after showing up with ten practically empty razorbacks.
*Sliced to death by 20 mortal wounds from getting slightly clipped by a Hellion during the great Battle of Probably-Sixty-Guys-Total

Etc.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/10 11:44:19


 
   
Made in us
Sure Space Wolves Land Raider Pilot




Somerdale, NJ, USA

I voted yes, because I'm a follower of the Wolf King and want him to reappear.

Knowing that, I think the next Primarch to be released should be: Vulkan -> Unaligned/Chaos Undivided Primarch (Alpharius[Omegon], Lorgar or Perturabo) -> either Angron or Fulgrim

As people said before, an Imperial Primarch would only buff an already good codex but Vulkan being a perpetual means he is actually still "alive" and would balance out the current 2-1.
CSM needs a new codex as much as Grey KJnights and what better way to usher in a new foundational codex than with one of the Undivided champions.
Angron and/or Fulgrim are great choices but should accompany a legion/deity specific codex like Death Guard or Thousand Sons.

"The only problem with your genepool is that there wasn't a lifeguard on duty to prevent you from swimming."

"You either die a Morty, or you live long enough to see yourself become a Rick."

- 8k /// - 5k /// - 5k /// - 6k /// - 6k /// - 4k /// - 4k 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I voted no.

I play 30k, and the Primarchs there feel like Primarchs. You have to adjust your battle plan around them, and each one's strengths and weaknesses are different. My Chaos Daemons win against them in tense duels with my Archdaemon (primarch-scale lord of war) or by avoiding them / tying them down.

In 40k, a regular daemon prince can bonk RG on the head to death. I have probably killed RG in 40k more than in 30k, because of how much more lethal 40k is. At some point it's just like:

"Before you stands Robot Guilliman, veteran of a thousand wars, tactician and strategist peerless. Here are some of his latest accomplishments:

*Beaten to death with 26 other marines on Table 5.
*Merc'd on Table 12 by Harlequin bikers after showing up with ten practically empty razorbacks.
*Sliced to death by 20 mortal wounds from getting slightly clipped by a Hellion during the great Battle of Probably-Sixty-Guys-Total

Etc.
Agreed.

His genetics have been absorbed into the Tyranid horde a whole bunch of times at the hands of my Nids. In similarly inglorious ways too, like MWnded down by nameless Neurothrope number 16,846, or cut down by Tyranid Warrior number 24,867,246,863. . .

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/10 15:59:19


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Marshal Loss wrote:
 waefre_1 wrote:
Sure, GW doesn't need explicit reason to do any given thing, but I'd expect at least some rationale behind so major a change.


$$$. 30k sold well, as do big centrepiece models, and people obsess over Primarchs. That's all there is to it


So I think the rationale you're looking for is the fall of Cadia, the galaxy being torn in two and a loss of function to the astronomicon that has left some sectors inaccessible?

I believe that the story GW is telling is one in which the Imperium would not have survived the fall if not for the return and intervention of Guilliman. He didn't do it alone, but he is the one who assembled and launched Indomitus. I haven't read any BL fiction set in the Indomitus era- BL stuff tends to demonstrate things that aren't possible on the table top, so I don't particular support its use for resolving game issues anyway.

You can argue that Primarchs showing up at skirmishes is crap- I'd tend to agree actually- but that's on players, not GW. They make the models. Players choose when and how to use them. For example, in order for ME to field my Triumph of Saint Katherine, I've got a crusade force for each of the six Orders, and each will be fighting a battle where their Triumph relic is an objective, and after capturing that relic, each of these forces must fight their way across the galaxy to gather the first Triumph. It will take a minimum of 25 games to make it happen, and fielding the Triumph is the culminating act of the campaign.

GW gave me a model that made this elaborate campaign possible; that was their job. Actually creating a suitable narrative to field the model? That's my job.

If some chump wants to include the Triumph in a Combat Patrol game against cultists on a backwater world, blame the chump, not the company. Many of us DO use the models in a fluffy way- a thing which we LOVE doing, but couldn't do if GW didn't make the models.
   
 
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