Switch Theme:

Ninja Astartes?  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




BrianDavion wrote:
epronovost wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
an average age 25 cadian is proably dead


That's a quintessentially illogical statement. An average Cadian of age 25 can only be alive (or dying) and there are millions of them (well until the planet exploded, there are less now).


not really my point is that your average guardsman doesn't survive his first campaign, your average marine does.



Says who? A 16 years old Space Marine scout with three years of training and surgery isn't exactly in a better spot than your average guardsmen with similar training time. Plus your Scout Space Marine age 16 is basically doing the most dangerous job in an army, light infantry recon, the one that requires the most skills and they are probably going to be deployed against the Imperium toughest foe since that's the entire Space Marine shtick (and most other armies use elite units for light recon). His chances of survival might be even lower than that of your average Cadian whose first campaign will probably be holding some fortress from a horde of chaos cultist and Chaos Marines. Plus all of this is completely irrelevant to stealth missions.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/12 02:03:47


 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




I think when reading though this, you end up eroding what makes something cool, by justification of Rule of cool.

Space marines end up being just so super cool and powerful that they are uncool and take away from the setting of 40k.

The same reason people don’t really seem to like the jumping and back flipping of terminators is that there fantasy of personal tank armour is just that.
If you take away there big disadvantage you take away from what makes them interesting as well.
And seems to just steal away at the fantasy of others, if space marines can be so stealthy and sneaky, the question must be asked why those marines have survived so long.
Why can other races not do the same, how come the Tau stealth suits don’t decimate marine lines.

Just makes 40k a less cool setting.
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Apple fox wrote:

And seems to just steal away at the fantasy of others, if space marines can be so stealthy and sneaky, the question must be asked why those marines have survived so long.
Why can other races not do the same, how come the Tau stealth suits don’t decimate marine lines.



Google Corvin Severax....

spoiler alert.. he was the previous ravenguard chaptermaster who got killed by a stealth suit ambush... to the raven guard no less.

just because marines are damn good, doesn't mean that their oppisition isn't good. thats the thing about Marines, they're among the best humanity has sure, but that doesn't mean they're so good they're unchallanged.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

BrianDavion wrote:
Apple fox wrote:

And seems to just steal away at the fantasy of others, if space marines can be so stealthy and sneaky, the question must be asked why those marines have survived so long.
Why can other races not do the same, how come the Tau stealth suits don’t decimate marine lines.



Google Corvin Severax....

spoiler alert.. he was the previous ravenguard chaptermaster who got killed by a stealth suit ambush... to the raven guard no less.

just because marines are damn good, doesn't mean that their oppisition isn't good. thats the thing about Marines, they're among the best humanity has sure, but that doesn't mean they're so good they're unchallanged.

Kinda, but also not.
Shadowsun used a dummy of herself to lure out Corvin, who they then ambushed with Ghostkeel battlesuits. This was nowhere near "standing in a room, breathing down their neck, undetected" level of stealth.

Those Damocles books were a trip. Very clearly written by a Tau fan! Everything the Imperials succeeded in they only succeeded in because Shadowsun let them to have a big ambush later.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/12 07:51:09


 
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





The Shire(s)

 kirotheavenger wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Apple fox wrote:

And seems to just steal away at the fantasy of others, if space marines can be so stealthy and sneaky, the question must be asked why those marines have survived so long.
Why can other races not do the same, how come the Tau stealth suits don’t decimate marine lines.



Google Corvin Severax....

spoiler alert.. he was the previous ravenguard chaptermaster who got killed by a stealth suit ambush... to the raven guard no less.

just because marines are damn good, doesn't mean that their oppisition isn't good. thats the thing about Marines, they're among the best humanity has sure, but that doesn't mean they're so good they're unchallanged.

Kinda, but also not.
Shadowsun used a dummy of herself to lure out Corvin, who they then ambushed with Ghostkeel battlesuits. This was nowhere near "standing in a room, breathing down their neck, undetected" level of stealth.

Those Damocles books were a trip. Very clearly written by a Tau fan! Everything the Imperials succeeded in they only succeeded in because Shadowsun let them to have a big ambush later.

Except the assassination of Aun'Va, but yeah, it was a bit one-sided.

 ChargerIIC wrote:
If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
 
   
Made in es
Regular Dakkanaut




Is there any BL book that is not completelly one sided in favour of the protagonists?
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

I don't know if they're Black Library but I've enjoyed a lot of the old Imperial Armour books, they feel a lot more interesting and neutral
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





The Shire(s)

Vatsetis wrote:
Is there any BL book that is not completelly one sided in favour of the protagonists?

Generally the better ones, yes. Even though someone must eventually prevail. Look at the struggles of Inquisitor Eisenhorn for example.

Also, the Damocles books above are campaign books. They are supposed to offer something for both sides in the conflict because they are designed for players to build armies around. Generally, they are less one-sided, like the Armageddon conflict.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/12 08:07:59


 ChargerIIC wrote:
If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
 
   
Made in es
Regular Dakkanaut




Good point. I have a couple of those in the cellar.
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

 Haighus wrote:

Except the assassination of Aun'Va, but yeah, it was a bit one-sided.

True, but even then two Assassins failed to kill Farsight, then a third, a Callidus, lost a melee duel with Shadowsun
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





The Shire(s)

 kirotheavenger wrote:
 Haighus wrote:

Except the assassination of Aun'Va, but yeah, it was a bit one-sided.

True, but even then two Assassins failed to kill Farsight, then a third, a Callidus, lost a melee duel with Shadowsun

Only the Ethereal died...

...So the writer was not just a Tau fan, but specifically a Farsight Enclaves fan?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/12 08:10:29


 ChargerIIC wrote:
If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
 
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

I assumed Aun'Va's death was decided beforehand as part of the wider End Times- I mean Gathering Storm storyline, so that was a static element out of his control!

Which is arguably the same for Farsight and Shadowsun, I'm not annoyed that they survived the book.
But I say if you don't want to kill a character, don't place them in a situation where they would surely die!
To put them in that situation then pull something out of your arse is bad writing.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/12 08:17:42


 
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





The Shire(s)

 kirotheavenger wrote:
I assumed Aun'Va's death was decided beforehand as part of the wider End Times- I mean Gathering Storm storyline, so that was a static element out of his control!

Which is arguably the same for Farsight and Shadowsun, I'm not annoyed that they survived the book.
But I say if you don't want to kill a character, don't place them in a situation where they would surely die!
To put them in that situation then pull something out of your arse is bad writing.

You're right there. It would have been better to have the Callidus caught at like the final checkpoint or something, and then have Shadowsun gun them down from a distance as they tried to flee the scene.

 ChargerIIC wrote:
If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
 
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





 kirotheavenger wrote:
I assumed Aun'Va's death was decided beforehand as part of the wider End Times- I mean Gathering Storm storyline, so that was a static element out of his control!

Which is arguably the same for Farsight and Shadowsun, I'm not annoyed that they survived the book.
But I say if you don't want to kill a character, don't place them in a situation where they would surely die!
To put them in that situation then pull something out of your arse is bad writing.


they really need to get around to replacing Aun'VA. put out a new plastic etheral character mini that blows away the old Aun'Va mini, and make him the new etherial leader. it's not like they have to get rid of the old one, we've still got typho and sergent kell around

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Haighus wrote:
 kirotheavenger wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Apple fox wrote:

And seems to just steal away at the fantasy of others, if space marines can be so stealthy and sneaky, the question must be asked why those marines have survived so long.
Why can other races not do the same, how come the Tau stealth suits don’t decimate marine lines.



Google Corvin Severax....

spoiler alert.. he was the previous ravenguard chaptermaster who got killed by a stealth suit ambush... to the raven guard no less.

just because marines are damn good, doesn't mean that their oppisition isn't good. thats the thing about Marines, they're among the best humanity has sure, but that doesn't mean they're so good they're unchallanged.

Kinda, but also not.
Shadowsun used a dummy of herself to lure out Corvin, who they then ambushed with Ghostkeel battlesuits. This was nowhere near "standing in a room, breathing down their neck, undetected" level of stealth.

Those Damocles books were a trip. Very clearly written by a Tau fan! Everything the Imperials succeeded in they only succeeded in because Shadowsun let them to have a big ambush later.

Except the assassination of Aun'Va, but yeah, it was a bit one-sided.


I mean, if you're aware how much Aun'Va's been cynically socially engineering Tau society and forcing them into aggressive warfare without much care for the wellbeing of his citizens, you could argue getting rid of him is entirely a pro for a Tau fan.
   
Made in us
Twisted Trueborn with Blaster






 kirotheavenger wrote:
I assumed Aun'Va's death was decided beforehand as part of the wider End Times- I mean Gathering Storm storyline, so that was a static element out of his control!

Which is arguably the same for Farsight and Shadowsun, I'm not annoyed that they survived the book.
But I say if you don't want to kill a character, don't place them in a situation where they would surely die!
To put them in that situation then pull something out of your arse is bad writing.


Apparently Shadowsun can out fight a White Scars Kahn wielding a power sword using only a knife.

More on topic, Night Lords are well known for stealth as well. One part of the Night Lords Trilogy has one hiding in a ceiling and lowering himself behind a human without making a sound. Love those books.

"Because the Wolves kill cleanly, and we do not. They also kill quickly, and we have never done that, either. They fight, they win, and they stalk back to their ships with their tails held high. If they were ever ordered to destroy another Legion, they would do it by hurling warrior against warrior, seeking to grind their enemies down with the admirable delusions of the 'noble savage'. If we were ever ordered to assault another Legion, we would virus bomb their recruitment worlds; slaughter their serfs and slaves; poison their gene-seed repositories and spend the next dozen decades watching them die slow, humiliating deaths. Night after night, raid after raid, we'd overwhelm stragglers from their fleets and bleach their skulls to hang from our armour, until none remained. But that isn't the quick execution the Emperor needs, is it? The Wolves go for the throat. We go for the eyes. Then the tongue. Then the hands. Then the feet. Then we skin the crippled remains, and offer it up as an example to any still bearing witness. The Wolves were warriors before they became soldiers. We were murderers first, last, and always!" —Jago Sevatarion

DR:80SGMB--I--Pw40k01#-D++++A+/fWD-R++T(T)DM+
 
   
Made in es
Regular Dakkanaut




Like the Spanish Inquisition... No one expects the stealthy Astartes!!!
   
Made in de
Fresh-Faced New User




Vatsetis wrote:

You cannot be Hulk and Batman at the same time.


That's kinda the concept of Wonder Woman though, not in terms of being a huge mass-monster but in terms of combining insane strength with insane speed and unrealistically effective martial arts plus stealth skills(not quite as stealthy as Batman though).

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2021/09/05 10:24:02


 
   
Made in es
Regular Dakkanaut




She is literally a Goddess.

Certainly if we compare a regular Astartes with Rey from SW or Goku from Dragon Ball... They are sort of underwhelning.

Perhaps there is still room to increase the Power Level of "Da Kustum Boyz" fantasy.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/05 16:38:24


 
   
Made in us
Terrifying Rhinox Rider




Vatsetis the giant marines and the stealthy marines don’t even exist in the same universe.

Most of the marines’ enhancements are invisible. Their bones are made from the same thing as ballistic plate. Their Lyman’s ear improves their equilibrium so they can make good shots and close combat moves. These are things that aren’t shown well in models and illustrations.

There’s this assumption thats not in the text but is made by people anyway, that because marines are enhanced that they must be giants who can throw a car down the block like a shot-put. Even in these threads there are people saying eight feet tall. That number just doesn’t exist in codexes or white dwarf. It’s just in the popular imagination and GW have in a way just gone with it.

GW have shrugged their shoulders, taken this idea of giant marines, incorporated into subsequent pictures and novels, and sold it back to the people who generated it. Clearly it’s what people want so GW sells it to them.

The two concepts exist in separate but simultaneous universes. The modern gene-seed marines as described in the text are tall humans, not giants. Simultaneously, for maybe over 20 years, GW has also accepted that they’re selling marines who are >8 feet tall and 455 kg. Even though the codexes technically say 7 or <7ft, this is only a technicality. The marines in the source text and the marines as reinterpreted by fans and sold back to them by GW are in different conceptual universes.

The reasons they’re tall are so they can handle two-man lascannon like a large rifle, and so they can be the biggest person in a room made for humans. They’re tall so they can use a human size light squad weapon, a bolt gun, like an SMG. They don’t have, just for the sake of having a big gun, special bigger bolt guns. Except, in the version imagined by customers and sold back by GW, they do have special large bolt guns just for the sake of having big guns.

They exist simultaneously and in parallel. They don’t conflict, because they’re parallel. There’s a source version where some contradictions are addressed, and a commodity version where nobody notices contradictions.
   
Made in au
Anti-Armour Swiss Guard






Newcastle, OZ

Yup. The 8' tall marines idea originally comes from ONE photo of Jes Goodwin sitting in front of a "scale" drawing of a marine, where the top of his backpack is at the 8' mark ...

... but the soles of his boots start at 1' (literally. It's ground level.)

Everybody wants 8' tall marines. NOBODY wants 7' tall marines in 1' platform heels.


I'm OVER 50 (and so far over everyone's BS, too).
Old enough to know better, young enough to not give a ****.

That is not dead which can eternal lie ...

... and yet, with strange aeons, even death may die.
 
   
Made in es
Regular Dakkanaut




pelicaniforce wrote:
Vatsetis the giant marines and the stealthy marines don’t even exist in the same universe.

Most of the marines’ enhancements are invisible. Their bones are made from the same thing as ballistic plate. Their Lyman’s ear improves their equilibrium so they can make good shots and close combat moves. These are things that aren’t shown well in models and illustrations.

There’s this assumption thats not in the text but is made by people anyway, that because marines are enhanced that they must be giants who can throw a car down the block like a shot-put. Even in these threads there are people saying eight feet tall. That number just doesn’t exist in codexes or white dwarf. It’s just in the popular imagination and GW have in a way just gone with it.

GW have shrugged their shoulders, taken this idea of giant marines, incorporated into subsequent pictures and novels, and sold it back to the people who generated it. Clearly it’s what people want so GW sells it to them.

The two concepts exist in separate but simultaneous universes. The modern gene-seed marines as described in the text are tall humans, not giants. Simultaneously, for maybe over 20 years, GW has also accepted that they’re selling marines who are >8 feet tall and 455 kg. Even though the codexes technically say 7 or <7ft, this is only a technicality. The marines in the source text and the marines as reinterpreted by fans and sold back to them by GW are in different conceptual universes.

The reasons they’re tall are so they can handle two-man lascannon like a large rifle, and so they can be the biggest person in a room made for humans. They’re tall so they can use a human size light squad weapon, a bolt gun, like an SMG. They don’t have, just for the sake of having a big gun, special bigger bolt guns. Except, in the version imagined by customers and sold back by GW, they do have special large bolt guns just for the sake of having big guns.

They exist simultaneously and in parallel. They don’t conflict, because they’re parallel. There’s a source version where some contradictions are addressed, and a commodity version where nobody notices contradictions.


This post was mind blowing. Thanks pal!

You have sholve all my existencial questions regarding this issue... you make me so happy.
   
Made in de
Terrifying Doombull






Nuremberg

7 feet tall and fully muscled out is already going to be absolutely massive in human terms. I don't see a need to make them taller than that at all. I'm happy with my "big, but not giant" marines.

   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon




San Jose, CA

I'm 6'8" & 250lbs and compared to Shaq(height wise) I'm short.

So add an inch or 2 to Shaq(7') now add armour to bulk out an even larger frame. Huge is an understatement.

I guess 8' isn't unreasonable for an abnormally large Astartes.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Racerguy180 wrote:
I'm 6'8" & 250lbs and compared to Shaq(height wise) I'm short.

So add an inch or 2 to Shaq(7') now add armour to bulk out an even larger frame. Huge is an understatement.

I guess 8' isn't unreasonable for an abnormally large Astartes.


Take shaq, add an inch or two maybe, give that giant matt fraser or Eddie halls physique, and then add the bulky armour on top of it.

Christ, that monster doesn't even need to be taller than 7 foot to absolutely dominate any Space theure in. Bloody terrifying. I'm tall and I'm a mouse in comparison.
   
Made in gb
Badass "Sister Sin"






I’m a relatively meagre 6’2”. Tall enough to widely considered tall, but still “short” enough to think “flipping heck!” when I meet someone 6’4”+

And as Deadnight said, add in Eddie Hall or Hafþór Júlíus Björnsson’s physique, but all muscle? That’s…..new trousers Matron o’clock, let alone a Marine’s battle plate and what that does for their strength.

Oh, and they’re also faster in terms of speed and reactions than Usain Bolt and *insert martial artist of your choice*.

And they don’t tire as we do.

That is what I meant by Ninja Astartes in the OP. Not necessarily the stealth (though one suspects an unarmoured Astartes is far quieter when skulking than we can comprehend) aspect, but the raw speed and skill of combat.

They’re not great big lumbering lummoxes. And that is what makes them terrifying.

They won’t just punch your head clean off your shoulders, but will do that to all your mates before anyone has the time to think ‘blimmin’ ‘eck, that ‘url!”

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

Pfizer vaccine administered 13:40pm 18 Feb 21. Still no second head. Second jab 13:35pm 6 May 2021. At the Masonic Hall. 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Oh, and they’re also faster in terms of speed and reactions than Usain Bolt and *insert martial artist of your choice*.


That's dubious at best. Many highly trained humans have been shown to be capable of holding their own in close combat against Space Marines either in novels, short stories or GW promotional animation. It's thus highly, highly unlikely they are faster then the fastest human since they have been shown to be just as fast as humans who definitely not the fastest.
   
Made in gb
Badass "Sister Sin"






The “mere” humans there are the exception.

One might be faster than an Astartes, sure. But they can be *slightly* slower than you for far longer than you can be faster than them. And even a glancing blow to the bonce is gonna shake your gravy in a way that will wreck you.

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

Pfizer vaccine administered 13:40pm 18 Feb 21. Still no second head. Second jab 13:35pm 6 May 2021. At the Masonic Hall. 
   
Made in es
Regular Dakkanaut




epronovost wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Oh, and they’re also faster in terms of speed and reactions than Usain Bolt and *insert martial artist of your choice*.


That's dubious at best. Many highly trained humans have been shown to be capable of holding their own in close combat against Space Marines either in novels, short stories or GW promotional animation. It's thus highly, highly unlikely they are faster then the fastest human since they have been shown to be just as fast as humans who definitely not the fastest.


That only happened because the SM was self limiting itself to make the fight interesting.

SM are, by definition, the best at absolutly everything... They have extra organs and the power of corporate marketing on their side
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





we also see normal humans holding their own against eldar in the fluff too IIRC. the fluff is inconsistant

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
 
Forum Index » 40K Background
Go to: