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 Tyran wrote:

Audustum wrote:

The people advocating racial supremacy and/or violence in BLM are just as much a part of the movement and 'what it is' because the movement has no authority and no definition of 'what it is'. You see a BLM shirt it could be benign, it could be not. Is the TO supposed to interrogate the wearer? Why is everyone forced to assume it's a peaceful?

I'm not saying you don't have a point, but in the context of the thread that still doesn't put it at the same level of Fascist and Nazi symbols, which we know are hateful. You don't need to interrogate the wearer when it comes to those.

Correct, because real world political symbols should be banned from events full stop. Right wingers should feel welcome to play 40k in peace without someone potentially doxxing and permanently ruining their career like some of the extremist elements of BLM/Antifa etc have done. People have been gunned down in the streets by extremists on both sides so a simple "everybody leave the politics at home" that is applied equally across the board is fair. I wouldn't refuse to play with someone because they have a political shirt for a party I do not agree with, but it would definitely make the situation uneasy wondering if im tiptoeing through landmines just so I can sling dice.

If anything organizers should hand out BLM t-shirts for everyone that wants one at the door, for the exact same reasons players agree to the code of conduct detailing civilized and sportsmanlike conduct is required.

I take my dog for a walk for 30 minutes and come back to this...

Look, you see someone with a swastika and you know what they're all about. You see someone with a BLM shirt, you can be 99% sure that they just want black people to stop getting shot by the police all the time. You don't have to interrogate them, nor are you obligated to play a game against them, but the fact that they're held to any comparable measure says more about how toxic political discourse has gotten than it does the movements.

 Nurglitch wrote:
BLM isn't a violent extremist group. Antifa isn't even a group.

If you(generalized You) are afraid of a group call "ANTI-FACIST" it says ALOT

 Formosa wrote:
Then neither is any other non centralised terrorist "organisation" or cell based extremist group such as say.... Several Nazi hate groups.

I would wonder at the lack of moral and ethical consistency but these days I'm really not surprised.

Nazis have a history of trying to exterminate entire ethnic groups in record time. Last time I checked, neither Antifa nor BLM have killed dozens of millions of people.

It very quickly boils down to, but these guys are bad too so there.

In reality it’s not down to GW to define what a hate group is. And they will be different in different countries and areas with different problems. Someone defending BLM doesn’t equate to double standards. Trying to use BLM to deflect form the real issue smacks of excusing nazis in the community.

Andykp wrote:
In reality it’s not down to GW to define what a hate group is.

It absolutely is down to GW to define what a hate group is if they're advertising the fact that if you wear symbols of such a group they'll exclude you from events/stores.

All this "How am I supposed to know what group is a hate group" stuff is hilarious when we're talking about Neo-Nazis. Stellar comedy.

No one is saying the other hate groups are as bad as the Nazis, just that they are also hate groups. It makes no sense to only ban literal Nazis and let every group not as bad as them get a pass. Sure you can then start a list and slowly add more obscure hate groups and symbols over time and hope every TO is up to date with the current hate group list and can recognize them all by sight and kick them out as soon as they enter the venue. And then you will have lots of edgy people who will try to skirt the lines by having symbols not yet recognized as hateful enough symbols etc.

Just ban anything political at events and it becomes so much easier. Sure anything could be seen as political. But if you have a shirt with your country's flag on it or have painted your army in your country's military camouflage, which could be seen as political, is quite different from wearing party symbols or a shirt with text from a controversial political group. I would allow the former but not the latter and have the line drawn around there.

If you want to spread your beliefs do it at another place. Most people involved in politics think they are doing good and think they are on the right side morally and have the best solution to everything, no matter which side they are in and can't see why anyone would oppose them. Problem is both(in reality there are more than just 2 sides to this) sides feel the other side is wrong and can sometimes have very good reason for their believes in that the opponent is wrong. But that shouldn't matter at a warhammer event. I rather see my opponent and have my first impression of them being that they are also a wargamer that enjoys the same thing as I do when it comes to having fun and relaxing. Not seeing a shirt with a political slogan on it and wonder if I will hear political BS during the game or if it is even worth it trying to befriend the opponent during the game because clearly they care way more about politics than I do (don't have to be opposite from my politics but if you care so much about politics that you can't leave it at home at a game I probably won't stand being around you outside of a game). Better if everyone is a clean slate and we start each game without any political bias against each other and just have fun.

Cool, Formosa shitposting another thread to death, he did it with the female Marines threads, the other thread about the Nazi player and now again...

 Gert wrote:
All this "How am I supposed to know what group is a hate group" stuff is hilarious when we're talking about Neo-Nazis. Stellar comedy.

a) GW didn't specifiy any particular group(s) in their statement
b) Problematic groups other than (neo-)Nazis exist

 Tyran wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Then neither is any other non centralised terrorist "organisation" or cell based extremist group such as say.... Several Nazi hate groups.

I would wonder at the lack of moral and ethical consistency but these days I'm really not surprised.

Nazis have a history of trying to exterminate entire ethnic groups in record time. Last time I checked, neither Antifa nor BLM have killed dozens of millions of people.

Because they are not in a position to right now, would these radical extremists do so if able, yes, as shown by every single communist regime for the last 100 years.

So you didn't check very hard.

Personally, I would use my brain and connect the dots between recent events to determine what would be unacceptable.
That or you could show up to a store/event and then find out when you're asked to leave.
Anyway, carry on with your whataboutery and Nazi/Fascist apologism, see you in the next thread where it has to be reiterated that Nazis are bad

Hahaha classic Gert, classic.

 Gert wrote:
Anyway, carry on with your whataboutery and Nazi/Fascist apologism, see you in the next thread where it has to be reiterated that Nazis are bad

It's tragic that you're apparently so desperate to find Nazis and Nazi sympathisers everywhere.

 Gert wrote:
Personally, I would use my brain and connect the dots between recent events to determine what would be unacceptable.
That or you could show up to a store/event and then find out when you're asked to leave.
Anyway, carry on with your whataboutery and Nazi/Fascist apologism, see you in the next thread where it has to be reiterated that Nazis are bad

Its not apologism? Most of the arguments here want a total ban on politics. Nazis being banned isn't remotely a problem with the people worried about this being an uneven policy. Using real world political symbols is bad and creates conflict where it isn't needed. Things like generic "the warhammer community welcomes all!" shirts that people wearing problematic clothes can be told to change into or they will be asked to leave. Honestly a simple T shirt with GW's direct statement on it would be a hilarious punishment for wearing real world symbols. It will trigger fascists while most reasonable people have no problem with it and at worst eye-roll it off.

 Formosa wrote:

 Tyran wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Then neither is any other non centralised terrorist "organisation" or cell based extremist group such as say.... Several Nazi hate groups.

I would wonder at the lack of moral and ethical consistency but these days I'm really not surprised.

Nazis have a history of trying to exterminate entire ethnic groups in record time. Last time I checked, neither Antifa nor BLM have killed dozens of millions of people.

Because they are not in a position to right now, would these radical extremists do so if able, yes, as shown by every single communist regime for the last 100 years.

So you didn't check very hard.

BLM and antifa are as bad as Nazis because in my fantasies they will kill us all someday!

 Lord Damocles wrote:

 Gert wrote:
Anyway, carry on with your whataboutery and Nazi/Fascist apologism, see you in the next thread where it has to be reiterated that Nazis are bad

It's tragic that you're apparently so desperate to find Nazis and Nazi sympathisers everywhere.

Do you think that there aren't a bunch kicking about?

 Formosa wrote:

Because they are not in a position to right now, would these radical extremists do so if able, yes, as shown by every single communist regime for the last 100 years.

So you didn't check very hard.

BLM is not communist and Antifa is anarchist (meaning they idea of they ever being in such position is hilarious, anarchism is inherently self-defeating. )

So try again.

 Olthannon wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:

 Gert wrote:
Anyway, carry on with your whataboutery and Nazi/Fascist apologism, see you in the next thread where it has to be reiterated that Nazis are bad

It's tragic that you're apparently so desperate to find Nazis and Nazi sympathisers everywhere.

Do you think that there aren't a bunch kicking about?

Maybe there are. I doubt that the number is anything above statistically insignificant, given personal experience of never having knowingly encountered one.

I don't believe that anybody I've seen posting on Dakka is a Nazi or is sympathetic to Nazism though. With the number of claims which are flung around though, you'd think this was Stormfront!

Wild accusations of calling other users nazis is unfortunately looking rather common on the... tournament discussion subforum, these days. And seemingly permitted.

 Nurglitch wrote:
The real organization we need to be worrying about are the Girl Scouts. Not only are they centrally organized, with uniforms, and a positive LGBT+ attitude, but they deal in addictive substances and frequently become violent at the drop of a hat. Girl Scouts are very much an equivalent to Nazis and tournament organizers shouldn't have to cultivate Girl Scout-free spaces where some girl scout might sneak in by merely wearing a girl scout patch instead of the full regalia and potentially expose good, Jervis-fearing fanboys to violence and cooties.

I have heard tales of several Girl Scouts breaking any number of laws and committing heinous crimes. They should all be stopped.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Formosa wrote:


Yes I understand the stated goals of all of them and why they were created, hence why I label them extremist violent groups.

You keep using these words. I do not think they mean what you think they mean...

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 Nurglitch wrote:
BLM isn't a violent extremist group. Antifa isn't even a group.

If you(generalized You) are afraid of a group call "ANTI-FACIST" it says ALOT

Not really, considering how Antifa (then Antifascist Action) was originally the paramilitary wing of the Communist party during the death throes of the Weimar republic and were opposed by both the Social Democrats and the Fascists, who weren't buddies either.
Being against Antifa just means you are against Antifa. It doesn't necessarily mean that one is for fascism, as politics is a little more complicated than a simple binary case of "If Not Antifa = Fascist, If Antifa = Not Fascist"

By your logic, if you oppose the People's Liberation Army you must be against liberation.
After all, it is called the PEOPLE'S LIBERATION ARMY. If you are against it says a lot.

 Thadin wrote:
Wild accusations of calling other users nazis is unfortunately looking rather common on the... tournament discussion subforum, these days. And seemingly permitted.

That's because there are two camps - fascism and not-fascism. Anyone advocating against not-fascism ("anti" fascism, some might say) is, de facto, a fascist.

That's it, that's the post.

I can't wait to wear my swastika underwear to my next GW tourney and just bask in the utter rebeliousness of it all!!

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
By your logic, if you oppose the People's Liberation Army you must be against liberation.
After all, it is called the PEOPLE'S LIBERATION ARMY. If you are against it says a lot.

Why are so many people against German workers..?

See someone wearing an apparently Nazi or fascist-themed piece of clothing, making gestures or saying something that makes you think they might be a Nazi? Point it out to them - here's a handy guide to gauge their reaction:

Reasonable Person:
"Yikes, sorry - that's not what I intended to communicate at all. Please allow me to re-think my choice of words/gestures/clothing!"

Actual Nazi scumbag:
"WhAt iF SoMeOne WaS WeArInG a ShIrT WiTh A ComMuNisM oN It BLM iS ExAcTLy tHe SaMe iT's ToTaLLy a JoKe YoU JuSt DoN't GeT iT LiBtArD"

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
GW was 100% right to make a statement on this recent event. The problem is that they didn't make a statement on this recent event. They gave no context. They should have started with "At a recent tournament in Spain..." and then gone on to deliver their message.

I agree with this. It is like when Blizzard "apologised" for their actions in banning and withholding tournament winnings from the twitch streamer and esports player who said free Hong Kong without ever actually specifying what they were "apologising" for. Which makes the apology worthless as you haven't actually owned up to what you did wrong.

With this kind of thing you should be specific.

I don't know, I think this kicks ass. GW finally established that you shouldn't venerate the Imperium, which will hopefully have the predictable reaction amongst all the right-wing groups and makes for an easy forum weapon against everyone who doesn't get it, and they made a definitive statement about hate speech going forward. I think getting into the nitty-gritty details sort of muddles that, and implies that this one specific instance was the issue and not the entire concept of Nazis going to 40k tournaments in the first place.

Also, one could argue that mentioning the Spanish player gives him publicity and therefore rewards his actions in a sort of way, but I'm still trying to figure out if I'm convinced by that argument.

As for all the other nonsense in this thread, I'm pretty left-wing myself, but I would definitely support a ban of all extreme political ideology memorabilia (BLM is fine) just to avoid the sorts of arguments going on in this thread. I don't give a gak if ANTIFA is or is not extremist or is or is not an organization or whatever other arguments you want to have, but if banning their symbols means I don't have to hear about it anymore I am totally down.

 Flipsiders wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
GW was 100% right to make a statement on this recent event. The problem is that they didn't make a statement on this recent event. They gave no context. They should have started with "At a recent tournament in Spain..." and then gone on to deliver their message.

I agree with this. It is like when Blizzard "apologised" for their actions in banning and withholding tournament winnings from the twitch streamer and esports player who said free Hong Kong without ever actually specifying what they were "apologising" for. Which makes the apology worthless as you haven't actually owned up to what you did wrong.

With this kind of thing you should be specific.

I don't know, I think this kicks ass. GW finally established that you shouldn't venerate the Imperium, which will hopefully have the predictable reaction amongst all the right-wing groups and makes for an easy forum weapon against everyone who doesn't get it, and they made a definitive statement about hate speech going forward. I think getting into the nitty-gritty details sort of muddles that, and implies that this one specific instance was the issue and not the entire concept of Nazis going to 40k tournaments in the first place.

Also, one could argue that mentioning the Spanish player gives him publicity and therefore rewards his actions in a sort of way, but I'm still trying to figure out if I'm convinced by that argument.

As for all the other nonsense in this thread, I'm pretty left-wing myself, but I would definitely support a ban of all extreme political ideology memorabilia (BLM is fine) just to avoid the sorts of arguments going on in this thread. I don't give a gak if ANTIFA is or is not extremist or is or is not an organization or whatever other arguments you want to have, but if banning their symbols means I don't have to hear about it anymore I am totally down.

The difference being, GW has nothing to apologise for.

Not HBMC. The other one I quoted. I agree with HBMC. I am not left wing really, more centre right but still dislike a Nazi as much as the next man. Shame that they had to spell out that the imperium was bad. There has been a general slide towards taking everything GW puts out as literal and without nuance.

I'm fine with BLM, antifa, etc but if banning all political symbols is what it takes to get rid of the Nazis then I'm all for it.