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 Pacific wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Igougo is one reason I lost interest in 40k. Due to strats and improved CC rules it's not as bad as in earlier editions where you could have walked away from the table for half an hour, but overall I prefer more of a back and forth and the ability to react on what the opponent is doing.

Another one is rules changing too fast. And I don’t mean updates or errata but killing off an edition after only 3 years, so at about the time you usually need to build an army, is just too damn fast. But that's an aos/ 40K problem only I think. Looking at other games like X-Wing or Warmachine it seems to be a gamble, though.

I think GW are definitely the biggest offender in that regard. But, it's part of their business model, and they've succeeded where other manufacturers have struggled. Lots of collectors seem to still just lap up each new rules edition and codex, while something like the last edition of Flames of War (which did seem a little forced) went down like a lead balloon.

Cruellest is the invalidating of miniatures with a new edition of the rules. I can't get my head around people spending dozens of hours, hundreds of £, and pouring all of their efforts into a unit and it then becoming 'illegal'. Some pretty egregious examples of that with the new HH edition.

My experience in regards to illegal models was the new Death Guard codex when it was released for the first time. I had collected up to that point a small Nurgle CSM Renegade force and was thrilled to now use a proper codex dedicated to those models. I looked at the Terminator entry and noticed no option for combi-bolters/power fists. As a response I put the codex back onto the shelf and walked out of the GW store.

I don't know if it's a thing of getting older but I've found a lot less time to fully commit to a game and so having straightforward rules and not masses of tables and special rules is becoming increasingly important.
Some friends and I were going to get into Killteam. However our last campaign (Necromunda) had failed because, unless you are living and breathing the game week-in and week-out, it is just too much to learn and remember. I struggled and I have played the game since the 90s, we seemed to spend most of our time stood with rulebooks and sat waiting. The campaign fizzled and died.

Looking at Killteam (not to mention the prices of the expansion books) I could see the same thing happening, so instead we have gone with One Page Rules - Grimdark Fireteam. While the 'one page' description is a stretch, it manages to capture the essence of the game without a mountain of expensive books.
We have an online app to record our army lists, and everyone playing has a PDF of the rules, which they can read (and not be resentful as it only takes 10 minutes). We have army lists for both Squats and 'Hrud' (space Skaven) and the whole thing is more accessible.

This isn't just a criticism of GWs games, although a few of theirs could definitely do with being more accessible, but I think too often not enough thought is given towards barriers to entry (with money, time requirement and effort needed!)

Cyel wrote:
When we started playing Gloomhaven I was initially against using the helper app for all the traditionalist reasons.

I was very wrong. We used it only for tracking initiative, enemy HP and their activation cards and this alone was a huge weight of our shoulders. We could spend more time on actually playing the game instead of manually cranking its engine.

I think all those games that are gameplay-light but upkeep/resolution-heavy (looking at you, Games Workshop) could benefit from an app that does at least part of the tedious chore of operating their sluggish engine, letting players concentrate on decisions and choices.

I definitely agree with this. Used sensibly, an app can be a good assistant for complex mechanics or record keeping. I have heard Fallout has a good app for this, and is an alternative to the cards and trying to collect all of those.

Or even as an integral part of the game itself; X-Com is an absolutely tremendous game, a lot of fun and really tense to play - the co-op element, of getting stressed out while the timer ticks down, could not be replicated without the app. I have been lining up a game of U-Boot as well - again the game could not function without the app, and the sudden input of approaching aircraft, destroyers and being depth-charged, by all accounts it works extremely well.

 Dysartes wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
1: Reasonable model prices/no fixed 'set' model line

2: No proprietary gear outside of the books

3: Decent and in-depth rules, none of this AoS cloning (looking at you Turnip 28)

...these are things that annoy you?

I may have misrread the title

issue with an "app" here is a simple one

Occasionally I drag a game off the shelf from 10-20 years ago, I find it hard to believe that anything "app" related will be supported in a decade

this also somewhat sadly goes for the otherwise excellent MeG where while there is no app to play the game you do need a spreadsheet to build your army, at least thats a case of download it, save it and reuse it but even so a paper backup would be nice

there are many games I have (Hellllooooo Federation and Empire) that would likely be far better suited to being entirely on computer, not to mention the craft design sequences from MegaTraveller.. and in such cases having a helper app as well is fine

I just find its a hard pass when such is required, though I get not everyone feels that way

Exactly. Nothing with an app or digital-based rules tied into it's gameplay has a long life expectancy.

But I can pull out all my printed material for something that's been out of production from my storage shelves and play it right now. 2nd Edition 40K? Original Necromunda? Gorkamorka? Battlefleet Gothic? All I need to find is a player.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Exactly. Nothing with an app or digital-based rules tied into it's gameplay has a long life expectancy.

But I can pull out all my printed material for something that's been out of production from my storage shelves and play it right now. 2nd Edition 40K? Original Necromunda? Gorkamorka? Battlefleet Gothic? All I need to find is a player.

not to mention either the "app" gets an update that requires the most recent version of the device operating system, cutting out some people with older devices, or the devices get updated and now the "app" is incompatible due to changes made, and invariably unsupported by that time

note that if said app is a "helper" and the game is written is it is entirely optional thats fine, its when its said to be "optional" but is actually required or is just outright required is a no sell to me. And its not just that I find devices irritating with flat battery, "Apps" that refuse to work if they cannot phone home (sorry cardinal sin there when it could work locally), its that I do not think its worth the investment especially in proprietary models and accessories for a game thats got likely quite a short lifespan

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Exactly. Nothing with an app or digital-based rules tied into it's gameplay has a long life expectancy.

But I can pull out all my printed material for something that's been out of production from my storage shelves and play it right now. 2nd Edition 40K? Original Necromunda? Gorkamorka? Battlefleet Gothic? All I need to find is a player.

After buying some rule books that become invalid within months, I've lost a lot of the long term appeal of physical releases, though I do agree on principle.

Apps that are essential for gameplay are a non-starter for me.

However a simple free online army builder is gold. Song of Blades and Heroes' simple builder still works great over a decade on, and the army builders for K47, OPR, Space Weirdos and KoW made all those games alot more accessible and easy to play.

In a way it's just an extension of my desire for wargaming rules to be as easy and accessible as possible.

Out of interest then, I assume anyone that won't play a game because it needs an app would also not play a 'legacy' type game that sees the players ripping up, opening card packs that are only usable a number of times?

Both of these things are pretty common (and popular, because of the additional mechanics and processes they can introduce) in the board game industry, even though they place limits on how many times you can play.

 Pacific wrote:
Out of interest then, I assume anyone that won't play a game because it needs an app would also not play a 'legacy' type game that sees the players ripping up, opening card packs that are only usable a number of times?

Both of these things are pretty common (and popular, because of the additional mechanics and processes they can introduce) in the board game industry, even though they place limits on how many times you can play.

I think that you are pointing out slightly different activities. Avoiding a miniatures game with an app that will become obsolete is different from purchasing a game that is purposely designed to only be played a certain number of times.

That said, I suspect the overlap between the two groups is quite strong. Those who bristle at their games becoming unplayable might very well be the same folks who don't want to purchase a game that can only be played once.

As someone who is against necessary-apps, I also rebel against the idea of games that render themselves unplayable eventually. Of course there's the counterweight that a season of a "Legacy" game is often far more play-throughs than I've played of most games I own, so perhaps at some point I should give a Legacy game a try.

I never play Legacy games either......

I've played through season 1 of Pandemic: Legacy - it is worth noting that for that game, at least, the end state is then replayable as if it were your own custom Pandemic variant.

Can't speak for other Legacy games, though, as that's the only one I have personal experience with.

I only played two first seasons of Pandemic and Gloomhaven and all of them were great experiences (with GH at the absolute top of all my gaming experiences of all time).

GH was awesome on its own, but Pandemic gained a lot of variety, extra dimensions and a personalised storyline thanks to Legacy elements. Enough for me to rate it much more highly compared to the base game.

I have to say any game that had some sort of mechanic such that it can only be played so many times without purchasing more of some expensive consumable (other than a choice of something to drown the sorrows with) is also on my hard pass list

to the point if I saw that I'd not even bother looking further

stuff like "record sheets" or things that pass through a scanner/printer excluded

On a side note, I HATE Pandemic but the Legacy version is one of my favorite games of all time.

 LunarSol wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Exactly. Nothing with an app or digital-based rules tied into it's gameplay has a long life expectancy.

But I can pull out all my printed material for something that's been out of production from my storage shelves and play it right now. 2nd Edition 40K? Original Necromunda? Gorkamorka? Battlefleet Gothic? All I need to find is a player.

After buying some rule books that become invalid within months, I've lost a lot of the long term appeal of physical releases, though I do agree on principle.

Yeah, but that's mostly a company-side issue, most notably a GW one. Most times game books becoming invalid within months is a artifact of meta-chasing, or company's with poor game design (or a rules-churn sales model).

For instance, something like Kings of War is perfectly playable after buying the 3rd edition hardcover, which has the most up-to-date rules, army lists for every single faction, as well as Siege and Ambush (smaller points-level games) rules. If you find the game well balanced using just that book, then in ten years you could pull that book out of storage and have just as much fun with it. No so with a proprietary app-driven game.

Or some game companies like One Page Rules, routinely update their army lists and sometimes even the main rulebooks for their games, BUT in 99% of situations, everything is a free update of already free material, so it's not like an "invalidated" army list puts you out anything other than maybe printer ink if you like to print things out to be physical copies. Or 5 bucks if you bought the full rulebook PDF's.

I feel like every single app-driven game I have experienced has crashed and burned after a surprisingly short lifetime.

 Pacific wrote:
Out of interest then, I assume anyone that won't play a game because it needs an app would also not play a 'legacy' type game that sees the players ripping up, opening card packs that are only usable a number of times?

Both of these things are pretty common (and popular, because of the additional mechanics and processes they can introduce) in the board game industry, even though they place limits on how many times you can play.

Never seen a game like that. But yes, if the cards 'expired' or had to be destroyed to play the game, that would irritate me.

Now if it is a card that needed to be marked on, that I can work around with lamination and dry-erase markers, or photocopying.