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 Tastyfish wrote:

 TalonZahn wrote:
Do more reading Tasty, Canada leverages some HUGE tariffs on certain U.S. products.

I wrote Cambodia, not Canada.
Canada wasn't included in this round of global tariffs as they have their own other thing going on.

Cambodia certainly doesn't have some of the world's highest tariffs on US imports, but were hit by some of the highest 'reciprocal' tariffs, which just happens to match the same formula as everyone else.

I feel much of the above non wargaming commentary in this thread benefits a lot from this common meme.
"Master what is the secret to happiness"
"To not argue with idiots."
"I don't think you are right."
"Yes I agree."

Well, China just announced 34% tariffs on the US. Either Trump backs down or the tabletop gaming industry is unbelievable fethed.

@techsoldaten

If it's all as easy as getting somebody else to do it with none of risk, and you can sell the product for half the price, and still make a profit long term you would think that somebody would have done it by now.

The concerns I listed are ones that would affect any business. If everybody wants to move capacity from wherever it is in the world to the USA to avoid these import tariffs, then you're either relying on local capacity, whether that's yours or somebody else's to provide all the services and materials you need. What you've described essentially constitutes a retail or trade business and you'll be competing with other businesses for capacity for various products and services. Alternatively you can have that capacity available in-house which requires time and investment and you might still be facing some of the same bottlenecks in capacity. No company can do everything and will be subject to market forces at large.

What I was trying to highlight was that if elegoo or whoever wants to get some production in the USA to avoid tariffs, it's not a simple or cost-less process, particularly if everybody else wants to do the same thing at the same time. If everybody wants a finite resource, the cost will go up.

 Tyran wrote:
Well, China just announced 34% tariffs on the US. Either Trump backs down or the tabletop gaming industry is unbelievable fethed.

Well, in that case, clearly the most economically powerful country in the world needs to back down to protect the niche luxury hobby we enjoy instead of trying to right decades of unfair practices by other nations. The hobby must be the priority. #Let Me Start Off With Two Words, Made In America.

 Tastyfish wrote:

 TalonZahn wrote:
Do more reading Tasty, Canada leverages some HUGE tariffs on certain U.S. products.

I wrote Cambodia, not Canada.
Canada wasn't included in this round of global tariffs as they have their own other thing going on.

Cambodia certainly doesn't have some of the world's highest tariffs on US imports, but were hit by some of the highest 'reciprocal' tariffs, which just happens to match the same formula as everyone else.

I've heard that it was intended to target Chinese owned firms exporting out of both Cambodia and Vietnam. /shrug

So many Kickstarters on the way that probably will end up badly o.O If raising shipping put a lid on the happy times this will kill it.

M.

 warboss wrote:

 Tyran wrote:
Well, China just announced 34% tariffs on the US. Either Trump backs down or the tabletop gaming industry is unbelievable fethed.

Well, in that case, clearly the most economically powerful country in the world needs to back down to protect the niche luxury hobby we enjoy instead of trying to right decades of unfair practices by other nations. The hobby must be the priority. #Let Me Start Off With Two Words, Made In America.

"Made in America" isn't going to help much when the companies that want to pay for cheap labor can't readily find it here. Until corporate America decides it's cheaper to make things here than it is to make them elsewhere and ship them here, it's not going to happen. It could take YEARS for that kind of manufacturing infrastructure to be built up, and we don't have the population to support it (as evidenced by our relatively low unemployment rate).

I'm not defending China's practices, but choosing to intentionally tank the global economy without having an actual plan in place to prepare for meaningful changes seems like a bad idea. The last 2.5 months have felt like a whole lot of cutting off one's entire head to spite one's face...

GrosseSax wrote:

 Tastyfish wrote:

 TalonZahn wrote:
Do more reading Tasty, Canada leverages some HUGE tariffs on certain U.S. products.

I wrote Cambodia, not Canada.
Canada wasn't included in this round of global tariffs as they have their own other thing going on.

Cambodia certainly doesn't have some of the world's highest tariffs on US imports, but were hit by some of the highest 'reciprocal' tariffs, which just happens to match the same formula as everyone else.

I've heard that it was intended to target Chinese owned firms exporting out of both Cambodia and Vietnam. /shrug

It's a blanket tariff based purely upon the trade deficit compared to the overall amount of trade.

There was nothing targeted about any of it.

 BorderCountess wrote:



"Made in America" isn't going to help much when the companies that want to pay for cheap labor can't readily find it here. Until corporate America decides it's cheaper to make things here than it is to make them elsewhere and ship them here, it's not going to happen. It could take YEARS for that kind of manufacturing infrastructure to be built up, and we don't have the population to support it (as evidenced by our relatively low unemployment rate).

I'm not defending China's practices, but choosing to intentionally tank the global economy without having an actual plan in place to prepare for meaningful changes seems like a bad idea. The last 2.5 months have felt like a whole lot of cutting off one's entire head to spite one's face...

It isn't just corporations. Americans do not want to pay American wages for the stuff they buy.
You get either cheap stuff or you get manufacturing jobs, but you cannot get both because basic math.

 Miguelsan wrote:
So many Kickstarters on the way that probably will end up badly o.O If raising shipping put a lid on the happy times this will kill it.

M.

I suspect that US backers who have not yet been billed for shipping are about to see a significant increase in shipping fees as publishers and fulfillment houses attempt to claw back the immediate cost of the tariffs on any kickstarters that are about to deliver. This will of course upset backers and as word gets around, will make consumers reconsider a current or future kickstarter pledge thus possibly doing long lasting reputational damage to crowdfunded projects and thus result in an overall decline in the number of kickstarters.

 Tyran wrote:

 BorderCountess wrote:



"Made in America" isn't going to help much when the companies that want to pay for cheap labor can't readily find it here. Until corporate America decides it's cheaper to make things here than it is to make them elsewhere and ship them here, it's not going to happen. It could take YEARS for that kind of manufacturing infrastructure to be built up, and we don't have the population to support it (as evidenced by our relatively low unemployment rate).

I'm not defending China's practices, but choosing to intentionally tank the global economy without having an actual plan in place to prepare for meaningful changes seems like a bad idea. The last 2.5 months have felt like a whole lot of cutting off one's entire head to spite one's face...

It isn't just corporations. Americans do not want to pay American wages for the stuff they buy.
You get either cheap stuff or you get manufacturing jobs, but you cannot get both because basic math.

That's what I find funny about the income tax point. When the min wage has stagnated for decades, prices go up wiping out most workers gains and then the only win is that your boss doesn't pay as much tax any more, it doesn't seem like something to celebrate.

Who knows, maybe we can have a reset of the global power structure after Trumps gone.

The Black Adder wrote:
@techsoldaten

If it's all as easy as getting somebody else to do it with none of risk, and you can sell the product for half the price, and still make a profit long term you would think that somebody would have done it by now.

The concerns I listed are ones that would affect any business. If everybody wants to move capacity from wherever it is in the world to the USA to avoid these import tariffs, then you're either relying on local capacity, whether that's yours or somebody else's to provide all the services and materials you need. What you've described essentially constitutes a retail or trade business and you'll be competing with other businesses for capacity for various products and services. Alternatively you can have that capacity available in-house which requires time and investment and you might still be facing some of the same bottlenecks in capacity. No company can do everything and will be subject to market forces at large.

What I was trying to highlight was that if elegoo or whoever wants to get some production in the USA to avoid tariffs, it's not a simple or cost-less process, particularly if everybody else wants to do the same thing at the same time. If everybody wants a finite resource, the cost will go up.

Consider verifying facts before applying your reductive lens, it seems wildly off.

Your argument about taking on capital expenditures and hiring a full team of technical experts to pilot a product has nothing to do with how companies operate.

Businesses use toll manufacturing everyday worldwide as part of their normal operations. I spelled out the process people use whenever the cost of an imported commodity goes out of reach and they want to pilot an alternative. Commercial manufacturing organizations exist exactly to fill this market need, where the cost of labor and equipment is not viable.

I listed the names of the big North American CMOs and provided a link to a website with an all-inclusive directory of the smaller ones. Feel free to read about how they deliver value to their customers. Most of them have public phone numbers, you can call to ask about their services. I listed the chemicals off the material safety data sheets, you can ask them about sourcing and whether they can handle it all inclusively. The big ones do, they generally charge a fee on top of the cost of materials.

The issue of capacity you cite is addressed by planning batches long in advance. It's typically called lead time and CMOs refer to it as a batch run. For a small batch of product, you wait about 3 months, but you do get it bottled, labelled and shipped on palettes. They have this technology called a calendar they use for scheduling the highly precise and optimized science of formulation. As long as you provide instructions for how to mix your product, CMOs can use this calendar to give you very accurate estimates of how long the batch will take to complete and when you can expect it to ship. This calendar allows them to handle requests from multiple customers, like every other industry on Earth.

If you use your time productively and market the product before it arrives, you sell it. If you sell enough of it, you make a profit. A large part of the reason there's no domestic manufacturers is the lack of tariffs. Such an endeavor would generate revenue based on the difference between the price of the product from other manufacturers and your own. Since you have control of the cost of production runs, very little overhead, and an actual market need, you have an opportunity to profit. The risk lies in making a compelling argument for people to want to buy your product. It can be substantial for an inexperienced entrepreneur, but people overcome such concerns every day. In the event of escalating prices due to tariffs, I'd advise emphasizing price.

I know this all must seem like sorcery, but welcome to the 21st century. Manufacturing techniques are a far more sophisticated than 16th century Birmingham.

 warboss wrote:

Well, in that case, clearly the most economically powerful country in the world needs to back down to protect the niche luxury hobby we enjoy instead of trying to right decades of unfair practices by other nations. The hobby must be the priority. #Let Me Start Off With Two Words, Made In America.

If said country is the most economically powerful country in the world, how have other nations been unfair to it?

The guy who wins first place shouldn't be complaining how unfair everything is to them, because obviously, they're doing fine. In fact none of the top ten or even top twenty should be complaining, because they're all doing fine compared to everyone else. It's always the bottom twenty that need to be checking to see whether or not things are fair... Like, you know, some of the countries where thousands more children will be born with AIDS because Musk decided to blow up as much as he could all at once before studying the impacts of cuts.

#The rich convincing the poor that other countries are the problem, rather than the system that keeps them rich

 PenitentJake wrote:

If said country is the most economically powerful country in the world, how have other nations been unfair to it?

Because of decades of political weakness on the part of that country's leadership unwilling or unable to make tough decisions to right the course. Being on top doesn't mean that your generosity isn't being taken advantage of nor does it excuse bad actions on your part to get to the top. That applies to nations, corporations, and people equally.

 warboss wrote:

 PenitentJake wrote:

If said country is the most economically powerful country in the world, how have other nations been unfair to it?

Because of decades of political weakness on the part of that country's leadership unwilling or unable to make tough decisions to right the course.

Such as? You also didn't actually define how any nations have been unfair to the USA.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 warboss wrote:

 PenitentJake wrote:

If said country is the most economically powerful country in the world, how have other nations been unfair to it?

Because of decades of political weakness on the part of that country's leadership unwilling or unable to make tough decisions to right the course.

Such as? You also didn't actually define how any nations have been unfair to the USA.

I feel like the majority of those in favour of the current process can't.

 PenitentJake wrote:
Like, you know, some of the countries where thousands more children will be born with AIDS because Musk decided to blow up as much as he could all at once before studying the impacts of cuts.

We've officially entered Simpsons parody territory now.



Canada is free, as a nation, to help pick up the slack of course. As are individuals, corporations, and organizations that were previously bankrolled by that funding that never went directly to those children... and so is the US government once the funding is put under more direct, accountable, open and responsible control unlike the past decades as the transparency of the past 90 days has shown. If the money was actually going to children instead of what has been revealed to be staggering amounts of waste on things that don't directly benefit societies and the US, this wouldn't have been such an issue. But none of that has to do with the tariffs affecting our niche hobby though and the point of this thread, right?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dudeface wrote:

I feel like the majority of those in favour of the current process can't.

And the majority of those who oppose anything the President does can't elucidate why they aren't so...

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 warboss wrote:

 PenitentJake wrote:

If said country is the most economically powerful country in the world, how have other nations been unfair to it?

Because of decades of political weakness on the part of that country's leadership unwilling or unable to make tough decisions to right the course.

Such as? You also didn't actually define how any nations have been unfair to the USA.

Trade imbalances and tariffs. US goods are the most highly tariffed in the all the world. Especially agricultural products, especially hard commodities like coal, iron, steel, etc.

Currency manipulation, where currencies are kept artificially low against the dollar. Best example of that right now is the Euro.

Subsidies and state support, which lead to dumping cheap products on our markets that make it impossible for our businesses to compete.

Intellectual property theft. Most of our national champions don't even try to secure their IP these days because it will just get stolen eventually.

Unequal market access. Our economy has to be open to preserve the rules based world order. Meanwhile a Ford costs twice as much in the EU has it does here.

Exploitation of global institutions. China is still considered a developing country according to the WTO despite having the #2 economy on Earth. Their economy is larger than the US on a PPP basis. That comes with a lot of benefits.

Security and economic dependence. Security guarantees from the US protect the seas allowing international trade. It's very expensive. Reciprocal trade practices could go to making that actually affordable, but instead money is funneled into social programs.

People in the United States live under these conditions:

- The average family cannot afford to buy a starter home in the place they live until they are in their 50s.

- The average US household carries over $100k in debt.

- The average US household has about $6k in savings.

Most people would like to have some economic security. That's impossible so long as cheap good are dumped on our markets, our businesses are non-viable because of a lack of overseas market access, and we have to spend ridiculous sums on distant wars protecting allies.

You're trying to argue the predominance of the US GDP makes us immune to the effects of the things listed above. You fail to recognize those numbers are based on international flows of capital that go far beyond the country's borders. That is absolutely not true for the people who have to live here and remedies are warranted.

 warboss wrote:

And the majority of those who oppose anything the President does can't elucidate why they aren't so...

Still waiting for an explanation and example of a nation treating the US unfairly.

 PenitentJake wrote:

 warboss wrote:

Well, in that case, clearly the most economically powerful country in the world needs to back down to protect the niche luxury hobby we enjoy instead of trying to right decades of unfair practices by other nations. The hobby must be the priority. #Let Me Start Off With Two Words, Made In America.

If said country is the most economically powerful country in the world, how have other nations been unfair to it?

Because that's the traditional authoritarian narrative, you can check it, it's number 8 on Eco's list. Those who oppose the Leader/Party/Nation (delete as appropriate) are much weaker, they should be despised. But they are also much stronger, they are a constant threat.

Nothing new under the sun. An educated person sees this immediately, a poorly educated just nods his/her head in awe at how much it makes sense.

Dudeface wrote:

 warboss wrote:

And the majority of those who oppose anything the President does can't elucidate why they aren't so...

Still waiting for an explanation and example of a nation treating the US unfairly.

Mexico allowing fentanyl and 3rd world criminals to flow through their country unchecked.

Canada, and more broadly NATO, living under a kevlar blanket for free by being next door to the U.S.

How's that worldwide shipping working out for everyone? I wonder what would happen if the U.S. Navy didn't protect shipping lanes around the world? What Nation would step up and do that?

Seems like there's lots of Countries all over the World that enjoy lots of things the U.S. provides, all while they sit back and mock the U.S. and let their Countries get overrun anyway.

But you most likely knew that and just want to be obtuse.

See this is why dakka prohibits politics, to keep the loons safe from outing themselves.

 techsoldaten wrote:

You could start such a business without needing to leave your bedroom. Purchasing equipment or hiring specialists would be counterproductive. At most, you would need a warehouse for receiving an shipping.

Each resin has an MSDS spelling out the photoactive ingredients and most materials. It doesn't spell out the mix. Bare bones, to get to where there's a product ready to ship:

- Hire a grad student to work out the mix and test it. For something like this, I would expect 2 - 4 weeks for a report.
- Get a quote from a toll manufacturer, a business who just does chemical formulation customers. Shop it around other companies listed in the SOCMA website. There are hundreds in North America and Europe.
- Have a batch made. The toll manufacturer is doing the bottling and labelling. After 2 months lead time, all you are doing is receiving a stack of palettes.
- Market the resin through eBay, social media and YouTube reviews. Make ridiculous, audacious claims about what is actually an identical product.
- Either ship the resin from a warehouse or pay a company to drop ship. Commercial space is cheap where I am, it would be a toss up whether to do that in-house or not.

Were I pursuing this, I would target a unit cost of $6 - $8 for the first batch and to have it ready to ship within 4 months. The initial target price would be half what Elegoo and AnyCubic are selling for. I wouldn't mind operating at a loss at first year - marketing and shipping would be the big overhead expenses. The goal in the first year is to build a big base of loyal customers as fast as possible.

there is so much in there, just to make it short, as someone who is working in the chemical industry (also on projects for printable resins), your "weeks" are more like years and if there would be a company who can make that stuff off the shelf without needing to invest anything, they would already do it.
and for the fun fact, not every ingredient must be on the MSDS, just the harmful one or those over a specific amount.

there is a simple rule in chemical industry, if it would be easy and cheap to do, someone else would already do it and if no one around you is doing it, it is neither cheap nor easy

 TalonZahn wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 warboss wrote:

And the majority of those who oppose anything the President does can't elucidate why they aren't so...

Still waiting for an explanation and example of a nation treating the US unfairly.

Mexico allowing fentanyl and 3rd world criminals to flow through their country unchecked.

Canada, and more broadly NATO, living under a kevlar blanket for free by being next door to the U.S.

How's that worldwide shipping working out for everyone? I wonder what would happen if the U.S. Navy didn't protect shipping lanes around the world? What Nation would step up and do that?

Seems like there's lots of Countries all over the World that enjoy lots of things the U.S. provides, all while they sit back and mock the U.S. and let their Countries get overrun anyway.

But you most likely knew that and just want to be obtuse.

No, no, dear unenlightened TalonZahn... that's just the victor blaming the victims so as to maintain a system of oppression.

None of these concerns are of any merit. Your claims to suffering are merely the tears of privledge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kodos wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

You could start such a business without needing to leave your bedroom. Purchasing equipment or hiring specialists would be counterproductive. At most, you would need a warehouse for receiving an shipping.

Each resin has an MSDS spelling out the photoactive ingredients and most materials. It doesn't spell out the mix. Bare bones, to get to where there's a product ready to ship:

- Hire a grad student to work out the mix and test it. For something like this, I would expect 2 - 4 weeks for a report.
- Get a quote from a toll manufacturer, a business who just does chemical formulation customers. Shop it around other companies listed in the SOCMA website. There are hundreds in North America and Europe.
- Have a batch made. The toll manufacturer is doing the bottling and labelling. After 2 months lead time, all you are doing is receiving a stack of palettes.
- Market the resin through eBay, social media and YouTube reviews. Make ridiculous, audacious claims about what is actually an identical product.
- Either ship the resin from a warehouse or pay a company to drop ship. Commercial space is cheap where I am, it would be a toss up whether to do that in-house or not.

Were I pursuing this, I would target a unit cost of $6 - $8 for the first batch and to have it ready to ship within 4 months. The initial target price would be half what Elegoo and AnyCubic are selling for. I wouldn't mind operating at a loss at first year - marketing and shipping would be the big overhead expenses. The goal in the first year is to build a big base of loyal customers as fast as possible.

there is so much in there, just to make it short, as someone who is working in the chemical industry (also on projects for printable resins), your "weeks" are more like years and if there would be a company who can make that stuff off the shelf without needing to invest anything, they would already do it.
and for the fun fact, not every ingredient must be on the MSDS, just the harmful one or those over a specific amount.

there is a simple rule in chemical industry, if it would be easy and cheap to do, someone else would already do it and if no one around you is doing it, it is neither cheap nor easy

Photosensitive polymers are a known quantity and there are multiple public patents that can be used as the base for any formulation. We're not talking about reinventing the wheel, we're talking about enhancing material strength, maintaining shelf stability and changing the color. That's not a year of research, that's finding a graduate student who has already tinkered with similar formulations and is ready to test them.

If you want to say it would take 3 months to achieve a formulation that operates within acceptable tolerances, maybe. But it's not a year.

I know exactly what does and does not appear on an MSDS, but I don't sense you have a practical understanding of business dynamics. I mostly work with surfactants, liposomes and LNPs. CDMOs are the standard solution for anything we take to market. They are often subsets of CMOs. The process I described is exactly how non-injestible products are piloted.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
See this is why dakka prohibits politics, to keep the loons safe from outing themselves.

Still find it wild a mod decided to open up this can of worms.

 NH Gunsmith wrote:

Still find it wild a mod decided to open up this can of worms.

This particular can of worms is going to run over the hobby and the tabletop gaming industry (plus you know, raising inflation, layoffs, and other "economy is on recession" things).

The fact that kickstarters are going to die, non-GW tabletop companies are also likely going to die and GW is probably going to bunker down and raise prices while we have less money for our hobby are all things very relevant to our community.

 TalonZahn wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 warboss wrote:

And the majority of those who oppose anything the President does can't elucidate why they aren't so...

Still waiting for an explanation and example of a nation treating the US unfairly.

Mexico allowing fentanyl and 3rd world criminals to flow through their country unchecked.

Canada, and more broadly NATO, living under a kevlar blanket for free by being next door to the U.S.

How's that worldwide shipping working out for everyone? I wonder what would happen if the U.S. Navy didn't protect shipping lanes around the world? What Nation would step up and do that?

Seems like there's lots of Countries all over the World that enjoy lots of things the U.S. provides, all while they sit back and mock the U.S. and let their Countries get overrun anyway.

But you most likely knew that and just want to be obtuse.

Sorry, why is Mexico not stopping crime leaving its own borders treating the US unfairly? Surely that's indicating that the US border control kinda sucks rather than Mexico being a bully?

NATO contributions are generally based on GDP contributions, of which the USA is the 3rd highest % by choice. Again, not really much to do with the price of Canadian eggs. Although oddly the most war like neighbours for Canada are Russia and the US.

You mean the US protection of shipping lanes in areas it sells weapons to and buys oil from? I think that might be their problem to look after anyway.

I don't really consume many things the US provides in reality. Which is the point. I have Japanese and Korean tech largely, even the "American" bots of tech in my house have never been in the states.

To be honest, it kinda feels like an authoritarian state demanding respect from peoples it deems it's interiors atm. Maybe it's time to realise the rest of the world can survive on its own.

Dudeface, if you can't drawn the lines from A to B, then this conversation is totally lost on you.

The US protects ALL worldwide shipping and if you can't see that, well you are blind to reality.

You wouldn't be getting your crap from Asia if the U.S. wasn't in the South China Sea, off the coast of Somalia, in the Red Sea, in the Med....etc.

Re: Mexico, they let it IN TO their Country so it can migrate north. They don't do their job so it becomes OUR problem.

Sounds like you just don't like the U.S. regardless of policies.

Well, the USA doesn't need to worry about Switch 2's anymore.

 TalonZahn wrote:
Dudeface, if you can't drawn the lines from A to B, then this conversation is totally lost on you.

The US protects ALL worldwide shipping and if you can't see that, well you are blind to reality.

You wouldn't be getting your crap from Asia if the U.S. wasn't in the South China Sea, off the coast of Somalia, in the Red Sea, in the Med....etc.

Re: Mexico, they let it IN TO their Country so it can migrate north. They don't do their job so it becomes OUR problem.

Sounds like you just don't like the U.S. regardless of policies.

Deal with your problems, there are British ships in those waters too. A large proportion of the US projects a main character persona over everything, much as you just have.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MarkNorfolk wrote:
Well, the USA doesn't need to worry about Switch 2's anymore.

This is true, more for the rest of us. I saw that the new iphones are set to possibly go up to $2,100.