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 jeffersonian000 wrote:


Book, page number, the passage in quotes.

SJ

Of what?

Are you looking for something separate to the normal rules for embarking?

 insaniak wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:


Book, page number, the passage in quotes.

SJ

Of what?

Are you looking for something separate to the normal rules for embarking?

Please cite the rules you think exist supporting a unit embarking on a zooming transport. Please include the book, the page number, and the passage in question.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

Please cite the rules you think exist supporting a unit embarking on a zooming transport. Please include the book, the page number, and the passage in question.

SJ

You're not getting a page number, as I only carry my digital copy at work.

The Flyer Transport rules tell us that models can't embark on a zooming flyer unless stated otherwise.

The FAQ states that models can embark on the Nightscythe. That satisfies the 'unless otherwise stated' portion of the rules.

 insaniak wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

Please cite the rules you think exist supporting a unit embarking on a zooming transport. Please include the book, the page number, and the passage in question.

SJ

You're not getting a page number, as I only carry my digital copy at work.

The Flyer Transport rules tell us that models can't embark on a zooming flyer unless stated otherwise.

The FAQ states that models can embark on the Nightscythe. That satisfies the 'unless otherwise stated' portion of the rules.

No, it doesn't. The FAQ answer does not grant permission, nor is it Errata.

SJ

If we're disagreeing over the meaning of the word 'yes', I'm not really sure that this discussion is likely to go anywhere useful from here...

... so then, "No"?

 insaniak wrote:
If we're disagreeing over the meaning of the word 'yes', I'm not really sure that this discussion is likely to go anywhere useful from here...

No, we are disagreeing about the phrase "otherwise noted". In order for an exception to a rule to occur, the exception needs to be clearly noted. The FAQ response is not a clear exception to the restriction on units nit being allowed to embark on zooming flyers. If the response included an explanation, or if the response was an Errata, this would be a different story. Unfortunately, the answer of just "yes" contradicts the rules as written while offering no insight as to how we can break the rules to implement the "yes". Since it is a draft FAQ, and the answer is obviously wrong, we can hope for either the correct answer to appear in the official FAQ when it is released, or for an Errata or addendum that informs us on how the Night Scythe is an exception to normal rules and that units can embark during the game because <insert reason>. As neither has occured, in order to comply with the "yes", we have to invent rules that allow a unit to embark on a zooming transport. Term for such a rule is "houserule".

SJ

Call it what you will, it no longer matters.
They say it can be done; everyone will play it this way, now.
(though, yes, further clarification for the final draft would be nice, so arguments such as this don't need to come up anymore. I'm hoping everyone who has seen this has commented as such on the relevant FB post)

 skoffs wrote:
Call it what you will, it no longer matters.
They say it can be done; everyone will play it this way, now.
(though, yes, further clarification for the final draft would be nice, so arguments such as this don't need to come up anymore. I'm hoping everyone who has seen this has commented as such on the relevant FB post)

Which is what I advocate in every one of these threads, including this one.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
In order for an exception to a rule to occur, the exception needs to be clearly noted.

"Hey, guy, can I climb aboard?'

"Yes, go ahead!"

"Sorry, what?"

"Yes, get in!"

"I don't understand what you mean. Can I get in, or not?"

"Yes!!!"

"What's that supposed to mean? Seriously, man, I just want to get on board!"

"YES! Get in!"

"Nope, still not getting it. Can I get in, or ... wait! Where are you going? Come back!"

As neither has occured, in order to comply with the "yes", we have to invent rules that allow a unit to embark on a zooming transport. Term for such a rule is "houserule".

We need do no such thing. We're given permission to embark, so in the absence of any rule saying to do otherwise we follow the normal rules for embarking.

 insaniak wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
In order for an exception to a rule to occur, the exception needs to be clearly noted.

"Hey, guy, can I climb aboard?'

"Yes, go ahead!"

"Sorry, what?"

"Yes, get in!"

"I don't understand what you mean. Can I get in, or not?"

"Yes!!!"

"What's that supposed to mean? Seriously, man, I just want to get on board!"

"YES! Get in!"

"Nope, still not getting it. Can I get in, or ... wait! Where are you going? Come back!"

As neither has occured, in order to comply with the "yes", we have to invent rules that allow a unit to embark on a zooming transport. Term for such a rule is "houserule".

We need do no such thing. We're given permission to embark, so in the absence of any rule saying to do otherwise we follow the normal rules for embarking.

No problem! Please cite the rule you think exists that states how a unit embarks on a zooming transport. Please include the book, the page number (if you can), and quote the passage in question.

SJ

What leads you to believe that it's any different to embarking on any other transport?

Should I also find you the rule that states how a unit embarks on a blue transport, or one with wheels?

If you have permission to embark on a zooming transport (which the FAQ provides) the fact that it is zooming becomes completely irrelevant, as there are no rules that tell us to follow different embarking rules for zooming transports than those used for any other transport.

 insaniak wrote:
What leads you to believe that it's any different to embarking on any other transport?

Should I also find you the rule that states how a unit embarks on a blue transport, or one with wheels?

If you have permission to embark on a zooming transport (which the FAQ provides) the fact that it is zooming becomes completely irrelevant, as there are no rules that tell us to follow different embarking rules for zooming transports than those used for any other transport.

The part in the BRB under Transports that tells us a unit cannot embark on a zooming flyer would be the one I have been referring to. All I'm asking is that you support your statement with actual rules. So please, cite the rules that bypass or ignore the restriction on embarking a zooming flyer. Are those rules in the Necron codex? Did the Night Scythe receive an Errata granting it the Hover special rule?

Please, let us all know the rules you think exist that allows a unit to embark on a zooming flyer. It's a simpke request, one that should be easy to comply with.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

No, we are disagreeing about the phrase "otherwise noted". In order for an exception to a rule to occur, the exception needs to be clearly noted. The FAQ response is not a clear exception to the restriction on units nit being allowed to embark on zooming flyers. If the response included an explanation, or if the response was an Errata, this would be a different story. Unfortunately, the answer of just "yes" contradicts the rules as written while offering no insight as to how we can break the rules to implement the "yes". Since it is a draft FAQ, and the answer is obviously wrong, we can hope for either the correct answer to appear in the official FAQ when it is released, or for an Errata or addendum that informs us on how the Night Scythe is an exception to normal rules and that units can embark during the game because <insert reason>. As neither has occured, in order to comply with the "yes", we have to invent rules that allow a unit to embark on a zooming transport. Term for such a rule is "houserule".

SJ

Your entire approach that you outline here is your house rule (which I have marked in red).



No where does GW tell us to proceed in this way.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
What leads you to believe that it's any different to embarking on any other transport?

Should I also find you the rule that states how a unit embarks on a blue transport, or one with wheels?

If you have permission to embark on a zooming transport (which the FAQ provides) the fact that it is zooming becomes completely irrelevant, as there are no rules that tell us to follow different embarking rules for zooming transports than those used for any other transport.

The part in the BRB under Transports that tells us a unit cannot embark on a zooming flyer would be the one I have been referring to. All I'm asking is that you support your statement with actual rules. So please, cite the rules that bypass or ignore the restriction on embarking a zooming flyer. Are those rules in the Necron codex? Did the Night Scythe receive an Errata granting it the Hover special rule?

Please, let us all know the rules you think exist that allows a unit to embark on a zooming flyer. It's a simpke request, one that should be easy to comply with.

SJ

If the Draft FAQ is officially released in its current form, then there will be an official ruling allowing the unit to embark on the Night Scythe.

col_impact wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

No, we are disagreeing about the phrase "otherwise noted". In order for an exception to a rule to occur, the exception needs to be clearly noted. The FAQ response is not a clear exception to the restriction on units nit being allowed to embark on zooming flyers. If the response included an explanation, or if the response was an Errata, this would be a different story. Unfortunately, the answer of just "yes" contradicts the rules as written while offering no insight as to how we can break the rules to implement the "yes". Since it is a draft FAQ, and the answer is obviously wrong, we can hope for either the correct answer to appear in the official FAQ when it is released, or for an Errata or addendum that informs us on how the Night Scythe is an exception to normal rules and that units can embark during the game because <insert reason>. As neither has occured, in order to comply with the "yes", we have to invent rules that allow a unit to embark on a zooming transport. Term for such a rule is "houserule".

SJ

Your entire approach that you outline here is your house rule (which I have marked in red).



No where does GW tell us to proceed in this way.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
What leads you to believe that it's any different to embarking on any other transport?

Should I also find you the rule that states how a unit embarks on a blue transport, or one with wheels?

If you have permission to embark on a zooming transport (which the FAQ provides) the fact that it is zooming becomes completely irrelevant, as there are no rules that tell us to follow different embarking rules for zooming transports than those used for any other transport.

The part in the BRB under Transports that tells us a unit cannot embark on a zooming flyer would be the one I have been referring to. All I'm asking is that you support your statement with actual rules. So please, cite the rules that bypass or ignore the restriction on embarking a zooming flyer. Are those rules in the Necron codex? Did the Night Scythe receive an Errata granting it the Hover special rule?

Please, let us all know the rules you think exist that allows a unit to embark on a zooming flyer. It's a simpke request, one that should be easy to comply with.

SJ

If the Draft FAQ is officially released in its current form, then there will be an official ruling allowing the unit to embark on the Night Scythe.

How about:

ZOOM
“A Zooming Flyer can move over intervening units and impassable terrain exactly as a Skimmer. In addition, a Zooming Flyer does not have to take Dangerous Terrain tests even if it starts or stops over difficult, dangerous or impassable terrain. Finally, unless otherwise stated, models cannot embark upon, or voluntarily disembark from, a Zooming Flyer.”

Excerpt From: Workshop, Games. “Warhammer 40,000 (eBook Edition).” Games Workshop Ltd, 2015-10-01T15:20:51Z. iBooks.
This material may be protected by copyright.

Check out this book on the iBooks Store: https://itun.es/us/AjAB0.l

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

The part in the BRB under Transports that tells us a unit cannot embark on a zooming flyer would be the one I have been referring to.

That tells you that a unit can not normally embark on a zooming flyer.

It doesn't tell you that you should use anything other than the normal embarking rules if something does grant permission to embark on a zooming flyer.



In this specific case, the FAQ tells us that we can embark on this specific zooming flyer, so we can embark on this specific zooming flyer, and we would follow the normal rules for embarking to do so.

Did the Night Scythe receive an Errata granting it the Hover special rule?

It doesn't need the Hover rule. It just needs something 'stating otherwise' to satisfy the statement in the flyer rules that tells us that units can't embark on a zooming flyer unless stated otherwise.

Please, let us all know the rules you think exist that allows a unit to embark on a zooming flyer.

The rules for flyers allow a unit to embark on a zooming flyer, so long as something says that they're allowed to.

The FAQ says they're allowed to.

unless otherwise stated, models cannot embark upon, or voluntarily disembark from, a Zooming Flyer

Q: Can unit embark on a Night Scythe other than during deployment?
A: Yes.

...
It would appear they have stated otherwise.

And again, the Night Scythe has a special rule that allows for units to disembark while the Night Scythe is zooming. The Night Scythe does not have a rule that allows for units to embark while it is zooming. The FAQ response did not include an explanation nor an Errata. The single word response of "yes" breaks to rules. It is either a mistake, as seen in previous FAQs, or the Errata changing the Night Scythe's transport capacity to 15 is missing the part where either Hover is granted or permission to embark while zooming is granted.

So please, support your argument with actual rules. You think thise rules exist, all I'm asking is that you share them with us.

SJ

You're not going to get a response that satisfies you here, because no matter how many times you ask the same question the answer will remain the same.


You are of course free to disagree with the idea that granting permission in the FAQ is sufficient, but I suspect that it will be more than enough for most players.

This is how everyone will be playing it.
...
Well, everyone bar one, perhaps.

pretty sure a "yes" is as clear as you can get to being "unless otherwise stated". No rule is broken in this regard since it has been otherwise stated through the FAQ.Granted that is if the draft stays the way it is.

I leave DakkaDakka for a year, now I have a headache when I come back.

I don't even understand how you can argue that an official ruling, even if only a draft or beta, is a house rule.

The FAQ if very clear, you can embark on a Night Scythe even though it is a zooming flyer.

I understand trying to follow the letter of the rule and the fun tricks and "cheats" you can develop out of it, but sometimes it is good to take a step back, make some food, and go for a jog to clear your mind and get a fresh perspective of it.

Not a necron player and this reads like some excellent theatre but I have one follow up question:

*How* exactly would you embark on a zooming night scythe? Where are the access points?

As they've said previously, the flyer base is considered the access point.
(from a fluff point of view, they're getting beamed up, so there's no particular "door" they need to get in)

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
And again, the Night Scythe has a special rule that allows for units to disembark while the Night Scythe is zooming. The Night Scythe does not have a rule that allows for units to embark while it is zooming. The FAQ response did not include an explanation nor an Errata. The single word response of "yes" breaks to rules. It is either a mistake, as seen in previous FAQs, or the Errata changing the Night Scythe's transport capacity to 15 is missing the part where either Hover is granted or permission to embark while zooming is granted.

So please, support your argument with actual rules. You think thise rules exist, all I'm asking is that you share them with us.

SJ

The transport capacity was already 15, so that was not a change.

The "Yes" answer is applied to the "unless otherwise stated" part of the rule you quoted.

BRB says models cannot embark on Zooming Flyers, unless otherwise stated.
Necron FAQ says we ignore that restriction for the Night Scythe. (hence the "Yes" you may embark).

We need only look for the normal rules for embarking to know how we can do what GW has no given permission for us to do.
Failing that, the rule that allows models to DISembark from the Night Scythe are applied to embarking.

-

Which again demonstrates the difference between an FAQ response and an Errata.

SJ

Which, again, does not matter unless you're deliberately trying to be obtuse.

 skoffs wrote:
Which, again, does not matter unless you're deliberately trying to be obtuse.

It only doesn't matter when you don't understand the difference between a clarification and a rule.

SJ

Why would you clarify something that can't be done with a "Yes"?