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Is OOE really 200 points now?

xmbk wrote:
Is OOE really 200 points now?

Really? In the index you payed for a lascannon bullseye. Now you get a force enhancer that is awsome.

 Niiai wrote:


Ok. I have am ambisius question:

1) What archtype style listst have we, and what are key elements to those lists?

2) To elborate further, I see peoole.talking about flyrants to remove chaff. Why is that? Does those lists run mellee units, and therefor the chaff must ve removed?

3) Do gunlines have the same problem?

4) How do tyranid alpha strike armies play?

5) What about a footslogging list? What are key elements to survive with those?

6) What lists suffer from alpha strike, and how do we counter that?

1) we have a few unique identifies now:

Mobile gunline: includes Dakkafex, Dakka Flyrants, Devilgants, Hive Guard, Exocrine, Tyrannofex, Biovore. The latter 4 aren’t super mobile but the former 3 are exceedingly mobile). Can also include Raveners and/warriors as fire support,

Maximum Threat Overload (coined by jy2): includes assault units such as Genestealers, Hormagants, Gargoyles, likely Swarmlord, and units to clear out the chaff such as Devilgants, dakka flyrants, Dakkafexes. Extra threat added to taste.

Fex Wall: essentially our version of Dreadnought spam. Tbh, it’s not really as good as Dreadnought spam due to our lack of any invulnerable save, but our models are cheaper and have a built in 2+ (lets be honest, this is only a Jormungdr list). Still totally viable.

Horde: No other army has access to quite as many fearless models except maybe Orks, but we are fearless to the last and have a lot more unique identity and utility with our gribblies. And our inherent mobility doesn’t require a Psyker. Units include pretty much all of the gribblies haha

2) It’s not so much melee units as screening units. Imagine playing against someone who has 45 Jormungdr termagants lying in between you and the gunline units that you have to peel open like an onion, and you’ll have a pretty accurate depiction of the competitive scene right now. Gotta kill it, so Devilgants and Dakka Flyrants are crucial.

3) I’m not sure what you mean by that. Tyranid gunlines? No, we can shoot over the screening units. But if we want to have gunline units, then yes we have to ourselves bring screening units.

4) Hit hard, hit fast, hit first

5) Jormungdr. Malanthropes.

6) All. This is a huge part of the meta. We counter this by deploying in reserves, which we are able to do better than any army in the game IMO.

 Niiai wrote:

xmbk wrote:
Is OOE really 200 points now?

Really? In the index you payed for a lascannon bullseye. Now you get a force enhancer that is awsome.

Does that mean "yes"?

xmbk wrote:

 Niiai wrote:

xmbk wrote:
Is OOE really 200 points now?

Really? In the index you payed for a lascannon bullseye. Now you get a force enhancer that is awsome.

Does that mean "yes"?

Yes.

A Sporocyst looks pretty awesome... If I don't have to pay for the spawned mines.

It spawns them via a regular spawning ability & via an attack role, which either hits & does straight MW or spawns another unit.

So that's up to two spore units a turn, from turn 1

Any thoughts on the Hausperex, now pointed fairly, as a tank buster? Bit slow at 7" but a good candidate for swarmlord's ability but really helps against a tank heavy meta.

Ok. Here are a couple lists I think I want to try out. I don't play super tourney competitive. Generally don't see a lot of forge world and what not. But trying to build this as a general TAC list.

It's all Jormungandr. The general idea is to sort of spread out my deployments nearish the front of the my deployment zone. Infiltrate the sporecyst, and use the spore field stratagem to build lines of spore mines in front and behind my deployment spaced 18.5"ish out from my deployed units to blanket the board in a no deepstrike zone. while also providing cover for all the the characters I have. If the enemy gets first turn they are going to have to spend it wasting their time on spores for the most part. I want to RUIN the first game turn for them and then capitalize on it.

On my turn, I deepstike in the raveners and trygon prime bringing with them the termagants to chew through any screens or soften up targets and Hormagaunts to tie up my opponents units. Trygon will target vehicles and high T targets while raveners will go after key enemy units supported by the red terror.

Exocrine and Tyrant provide fire support while neurothropes provide psychic support and smite/deny spam.

My hope is to cause so much disruption on the first turn that my opponent is forced to play on my terms. His strategies don't get to come into play and by the time he can utilize any deep strikers they are going to have to be reactionary to try and reign in my MTO. Hopefully my alpha strike combined with board control is so large and just SO much that it just turns his first couple turns into shambles and the rest of the game is him on the back foot trying to regain some kind of order.

Version 1

Version 2

I'll bite.

How close do you land the ravaners? If yoiu are 12" away I would rather take CC pistol for 1 point, instead of heavy bolters are 5 points. If you are 18 away, stick with the bolters, but rending claw seems better in CC version. I would try to shave some points on the, now they are trying to be 2 things.

That is a lot of Neuronthropes. after the 1rst nerurontrhope that can cast both smite and psykick scream, would not the 2 next neuronthropes better as zoanthropes. 24" range and a good smite. You can also transport them with Jormunghard to get them close.

What do you think about the Tyrannofex with Acid Spray?

Now 24" threat range with 2D6 auto hitting shots while moving, 18" 4D6 while stationary. In addition stinger salvo.
For 214 points I think thats fair and probably it will generate a lot of empty space 18" around him.

I defenitely will field one or two, rather than the rupture cannon.
Massive threat against flyers coming too close and anything else trying to hide behind its hit modifiers.

Sure, its more backfield support, and sure, some others may take the role better than him, but its also a very hard nut to crack.
In my opinion a good middle way for beeing scary enough for some dudes to take another way, and beeing not that much of a primary threat to get it shot down turn 1.

To make him more durable, maybe a Jormungandr spearhead detachment with Neurothrope, and some biovores marchin aorund as body guards for the Neurothrope?
Rather expensive... i dont think this will work that well.
Maybe Carnifexes, or Warrirors to accompany it?

Edit:

 Niiai wrote:
I'll bite.

How close do you land the ravaners? If yoiu are 12" away I would rather take CC pistol for 1 point, instead of heavy bolters are 5 points. If you are 18 away, stick with the bolters, but rending claw seems better in CC version. I would try to shave some points on the, now they are trying to be 2 things.

That is a lot of Neuronthropes. after the 1rst nerurontrhope that can cast both smite and psykick scream, would not the 2 next neuronthropes better as zoanthropes. 24" range and a good smite. You can also transport them with Jormunghard to get them close.

I would go with the neurothropes. You cant split the 4 Zoanthropes smite on 2 units and you can only deny one power with them. 2 Neurothropes are more flexible supporting your army at different table edges, and because of beeing a character more durable in most cases.

Edit2:
Losing one of your 4 Zoanthropes degrades the unit to only 1 power per turn, beeing smite or something else.

 Niiai wrote:
I'll bite.

How close do you land the ravaners? If yoiu are 12" away I would rather take CC pistol for 1 point, instead of heavy bolters are 5 points. If you are 18 away, stick with the bolters, but rending claw seems better in CC version. I would try to shave some points on the, now they are trying to be 2 things.

That is a lot of Neuronthropes. after the 1rst nerurontrhope that can cast both smite and psykick scream, would not the 2 next neuronthropes better as zoanthropes. 24" range and a good smite. You can also transport them with Jormunghard to get them close.

I will for sure consider shaving off points with the ravners as you say. I was intending to have them do their shooting to soften targets on arrival and then get in there and fight. Having hormagaunts eating overwatch for everybody else.

It IS a lot of Neurothropes. I could swap some out for zoanthropes. 1) I was looking for cheap HQs. 2) Being 3++ characters with <10 wounds means on my initial deployment they are all untargetable. I can sit one slightly in front of the others with the spore mines lined up in front of that. In order for the opponent to shoot me he has to clear away all the mines, maybe clear away the sporocyst and then shoot whatever is left at a single 3++ 5w character. It more or less gaurantees the bulk of my deployed army enters the second turn untouched. Zoanthropes on the other hand while tough will just be shot. 3) I was not intending to only have smite and psychic scream on them. I was looking to give a couple catalyst and place them on opposite sides of the board to add a 5+ FNP where needed most. And maybe some paroxysm to place on melee focused enemy units to keep the flow of melee in my favor.

This list is all capped out on what can be deepstriked at the moment. It's a pure 50/50. For every 1 more thing I want to join a tunnel I need 1 more thing to deploy normally.

 DaBraken wrote:
What do you think about the Tyrannofex with Acid Spray?

Now 24" threat range with 2D6 auto hitting shots while moving, 18" 4D6 while stationary. In addition stinger salvo.
For 214 points I think thats fair and probably it will generate a lot of empty space 18" around him.

I defenitely will field one or two, rather than the rupture cannon.
Massive threat against flyers coming too close and anything else trying to hide behind its hit modifiers.

I actually quite like the look of the Fleshborer Hive as there's a stratagem that gives fleshborers +1 to wound, which makes the Tfex wound MEQs on 2s.

Speaking of Tyrannofexes though (and Exocrine) if they haven't moved and fire twice and then you use the shoot again stratagem, do they shoot once more or a further two times?

Your supreme commander detchjaments can help a lot if they are Kronos, I will give your list that. If you have magus trouble that can be good? Although he is not shut down without having a kronos warlord as well.

 Niiai wrote:
Your supreme commander detchjaments can help a lot if they are Kronos, I will give your list that. If you have magus trouble that can be good? Although he is not shut down without having a kronos warlord as well.

Also a possibility. I currently have 7 synapse creatures. That would basically remove 3 of them as being synapse creatures but the Kronos bonuses are good. A easy adjustment to make but it does make me worry about my synapse web a little. I have never had so few synapse creatures to support my list before.

 The Shadow wrote:

[...]

Speaking of Tyrannofexes though (and Exocrine) if they haven't moved and fire twice and then you use the shoot again stratagem, do they shoot once more or a further two times?

Its only for infantry units as far as i know. Would be devastating if not.

 The Shadow wrote:

 DaBraken wrote:
What do you think about the Tyrannofex with Acid Spray?

Now 24" threat range with 2D6 auto hitting shots while moving, 18" 4D6 while stationary. In addition stinger salvo.
For 214 points I think thats fair and probably it will generate a lot of empty space 18" around him.

I defenitely will field one or two, rather than the rupture cannon.
Massive threat against flyers coming too close and anything else trying to hide behind its hit modifiers.

I actually quite like the look of the Fleshborer Hive as there's a stratagem that gives fleshborers +1 to wound, which makes the Tfex wound MEQs on 2s.

Speaking of Tyrannofexes though (and Exocrine) if they haven't moved and fire twice and then you use the shoot again stratagem, do they shoot once more or a further two times?

You can't use it with them. The shoot twice stratagem is for infantry.

 The Shadow wrote:

 DaBraken wrote:
What do you think about the Tyrannofex with Acid Spray?

Now 24" threat range with 2D6 auto hitting shots while moving, 18" 4D6 while stationary. In addition stinger salvo.
For 214 points I think thats fair and probably it will generate a lot of empty space 18" around him.

I defenitely will field one or two, rather than the rupture cannon.
Massive threat against flyers coming too close and anything else trying to hide behind its hit modifiers.

I actually quite like the look of the Fleshborer Hive as there's a stratagem that gives fleshborers +1 to wound, which makes the Tfex wound MEQs on 2s.

Speaking of Tyrannofexes though (and Exocrine) if they haven't moved and fire twice and then you use the shoot again stratagem, do they shoot once more or a further two times?

The shoot twice stratagem is only for infantry units. The flesh bore hive does benefit a lot from the +1 to wound stratagem. Being only 18" range though - I don't think you will ever be shooting twice. Better off using a carnifex for about half the price - getting +1 to hit with better strength on it's attacks. Tyranofex seems best with the rupture cannon - 2nd best with acid spray. I think it's worst with flesh-bore hive.

 DaBraken wrote:
What do you think about the Tyrannofex with Acid Spray?

Now 24" threat range with 2D6 auto hitting shots while moving, 18" 4D6 while stationary. In addition stinger salvo.
For 214 points I think thats fair and probably it will generate a lot of empty space 18" around him.

I defenitely will field one or two, rather than the rupture cannon.
Massive threat against flyers coming too close and anything else trying to hide behind its hit modifiers.

Sure, its more backfield support, and sure, some others may take the role better than him, but its also a very hard nut to crack.
In my opinion a good middle way for beeing scary enough for some dudes to take another way, and beeing not that much of a primary threat to get it shot down turn 1.

To make him more durable, maybe a Jormungandr spearhead detachment with Neurothrope, and some biovores marchin aorund as body guards for the Neurothrope?
Rather expensive... i dont think this will work that well.
Maybe Carnifexes, or Warrirors to accompany it?

Edit:

 Niiai wrote:
I'll bite.

How close do you land the ravaners? If yoiu are 12" away I would rather take CC pistol for 1 point, instead of heavy bolters are 5 points. If you are 18 away, stick with the bolters, but rending claw seems better in CC version. I would try to shave some points on the, now they are trying to be 2 things.

That is a lot of Neuronthropes. after the 1rst nerurontrhope that can cast both smite and psykick scream, would not the 2 next neuronthropes better as zoanthropes. 24" range and a good smite. You can also transport them with Jormunghard to get them close.

I would go with the neurothropes. You cant split the 4 Zoanthropes smite on 2 units and you can only deny one power with them. 2 Neurothropes are more flexible supporting your army at different table edges, and because of beeing a character more durable in most cases.

Edit2:
Losing one of your 4 Zoanthropes degrades the unit to only 1 power per turn, beeing smite or something else.

I've always been a fan of Tyranofex. I'm thinking that super metabolic advance could put her most anyplace you want...Krakon? roll 3D, pick one, then double move...sounds zippy. Though, after all that she's just a distraction carnifex.

 Lance845 wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
Your supreme commander detchjaments can help a lot if they are Kronos, I will give your list that. If you have magus trouble that can be good? Although he is not shut down without having a kronos warlord as well.

Also a possibility. I currently have 7 synapse creatures. That would basically remove 3 of them as being synapse creatures but the Kronos bonuses are good. A easy adjustment to make but it does make me worry about my synapse web a little. I have never had so few synapse creatures to support my list before.

Splitting fleets might prove to be more detrimental in game than in list building. I am a little concerned myself.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
Your supreme commander detchjaments can help a lot if they are Kronos, I will give your list that. If you have magus trouble that can be good? Although he is not shut down without having a kronos warlord as well.

Also a possibility. I currently have 7 synapse creatures. That would basically remove 3 of them as being synapse creatures but the Kronos bonuses are good. A easy adjustment to make but it does make me worry about my synapse web a little. I have never had so few synapse creatures to support my list before.

Splitting fleets might prove to be more detrimental in game than in list building. I am a little concerned myself.

That's why the 4 armed emperor invented the norn crown. Unless you are leviathan and you want to snuggle together like pinguins.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
Your supreme commander detchjaments can help a lot if they are Kronos, I will give your list that. If you have magus trouble that can be good? Although he is not shut down without having a kronos warlord as well.

Also a possibility. I currently have 7 synapse creatures. That would basically remove 3 of them as being synapse creatures but the Kronos bonuses are good. A easy adjustment to make but it does make me worry about my synapse web a little. I have never had so few synapse creatures to support my list before.

Splitting fleets might prove to be more detrimental in game than in list building. I am a little concerned myself.

I agree, currently I'm planning on one Fleet, adding in a Kronos Supreme Command of x3 Winged Tyrants...Winged Tyrants seldom provide any Synapse, they're either doing work, or dead. But I may end up running a "pure" Hive Fleet list.

 Niiai wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
Your supreme commander detchjaments can help a lot if they are Kronos, I will give your list that. If you have magus trouble that can be good? Although he is not shut down without having a kronos warlord as well.

Also a possibility. I currently have 7 synapse creatures. That would basically remove 3 of them as being synapse creatures but the Kronos bonuses are good. A easy adjustment to make but it does make me worry about my synapse web a little. I have never had so few synapse creatures to support my list before.

Splitting fleets might prove to be more detrimental in game than in list building. I am a little concerned myself.

That's why the 4 armed emperor invented the norn crown. Unless you are leviathan and you want to snuggle together like pinguins.

The Norn crown doesn't do gak IMO. Removing the penalties of instinctive behavior isn't the same thing as automatically passing moral tests.

Instinctive Behaviour isn't something to worry about really. You only need to be within 2ft of a synapse creature to not have to worry about it at all. But I DO have to worry about my termagants, hormagaunts and raveners deciding to up and run away when they start loosing bodies. To protect THAT I need synapse, not a Norn Crown.

Norn Crown is again a dud option. It needs to increase synapse, IB and SitW to be worth taking over one of the GREAT relic weapons. Hell, I might even spend the CP to get the Jormungandr Relic on the Trygon Prime to reduce enemy units Ld by 1 so when my alpha strike is over moral might kick in a little harder. Not sold on the idea yet, but it doesn't look awful either. But you know... scyths of Tyrann look better, 6 attacks base. +1 from 2 pairs of scy tal. +1 from tyrann +1 for each 6 rolled on 7 of the now 8 attacks it gets. (Edit: Behemouth only.... never mind)

My issue is that kronos is worthless for infantry. Well more specifically - troop options.

 Xenomancers wrote:
My issue is that kronos is worthless for infantry. Well more specifically - troop options.

Yeah, a "pure" Kronos looks to be a shooty Nids list, then using Wings to get where you need to go.

Say x2 Exocrenes, and some Biovores, Termagants as a screen...then x3 Winged Tyrants in a Supreme, one more Tyrant, or Swarmy on foot, or Wings....seems like a viable army...maybe not Tourney level though.....I'd likely add Rippers. or Gargoyles to grab objectives....maybe look at Smite Spamming...

 Xenomancers wrote:
My issue is that kronos is worthless for infantry. Well more specifically - troop options.

I agree. I see Kronos being useful in a command detachment with Flyrants for countering casters, or in a backfield gunline using Exocrines/Tyranofexes/Hive Guard/Biovores

If you are going to use your infantry for anything but screening a gunline you are going to want them to be a different Hive Fleet. I don't see that as a big issue-if you are going to be aggressive with them you want aggressive synapse anyway, so you already plan on taking an extra HQ or to.

I image that after we get some games in tournament builds are going to start looking like a Kronos gunline supporting some absurd number of Horma's/'stealers, with the infantry Hive Fleet varying according to individual build.

What are the Nids best options against vehicles in CC if you didn't want to play a gunline and wanted to go all in on assault? Is going pure assault a mistake overall?

I'm liking a hybrid fex with a HVC and scything talon with enhanced senses, spore scyts, and a bone mace. The fex is a threat at range and in CC though obviously needs the right list to be in but to support a shooting element it seems like a good anti-vehicle investment. Each are 128pts in that setup and work well in pairs.

So..."spitball" Kronos...


Supreme Command, x3 Winged Tyrants

Battalion(s) or Brigade

Neuro, x3

Termagants, x20, x2
Rippers, x3,x3
Stealers, x14-20

Exocrene,x2
Biovores, or Hive Guard

Lictors,x3

Spores, x3 or Gargoyle...taste, and points allowing....

So Infest the Stealers, Lictor them in...otherwise Shoot, the DS the Wings, or just charge....Looks "OK"?

 buddha wrote:
I'm liking a hybrid fex with a HVC and scything talon with enhanced senses, spore scyts, and a bone mace. The fex is a threat at range and in CC though obviously needs the right list to be in but to support a shooting element it seems like a good anti-vehicle investment. Each are 128pts in that setup and work well in pairs.

Not a bad idea. How's OOE with an escort of a pair of CC Fexes looking these days? Also, does a mix of gunline/assault Nids work well or would it best to commit to one or the other?

So a question to all I bought 1 box of tervigon/tyrannofex and 1 spoecyst/tranicyte which one of each is more recommend and with what load out. I'm liking tyrannofex a lot