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Flamers, screamers, and burning chariots may have just become competitive.

The 12" range on flamers boosts their threat range to 25-31" which is a huge deal on turn 1. If summoned the threat range is increased from being utterly non existent garbage because they have to be deployed 1" out of range to 18" from the unit summoning them.

Screamers getting 3 bites is a big deal.

Exalted flamers were already good and they got buffs.

Buffed flamers + buffed screamers= buffed chariots. It's 34 points cheaper than buying 2 screamers and an exalted flamer.

25"-31"?
Its a pistol, not an assault weapon . its 24" threat range.
The big deal is that you can summon them and still shoot it.

Screamers got real nice, I agree.

Exalted are a wash. the guns got buffed, but they got notably more expensive. I'd probably prefer the new version given the choice, but not by a large margin.

Chariot likewise, got the gun upgrade, AND the melee upgrade of the screamers-but cost more, and not exactly hard to take down, and unlike exalteds it can't hide and be a menace.

 schadenfreude wrote:

 Klor wrote:

 akwing00 wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
I cannot comprehend how badly they missed the mark on greater daemons. Almost zero changes. Absolutely embarrassing.

Yeah i can relate. I have Greater Daemons for Khorne, Tzeentch, and Nurgle, as I just love them as center piece models. Saying that, hopefully they listen to the community response and who knows maybe get some more point drops or some kind of stat modification in upcoming updates. Not out of the realm of possibility i hope.

With the deepstrike stratagem, khorne bloodthirsters went from Meh to "oh gak". Especially the rage one. His ability to double his swings (according to the leaks) makes him nasty to deal with. I don't see any of the bloodthirsters getting a point reduction. I'm more worried about them getting a price hike.

Also.. Yay for flesh hounds being cheaper now than last edition. Now if only we could brush the dust off of the blood crushers!

12 Blood crushers can now deep strike and charge on 3d6 with rerolls. That would hit like a ton of bricks and could catch a lot of units in a multi charge

Sounds like a very fun way of using them and mitigating the cost of banners using MSU.

Could someone tell me what the sloppity herald does?

I do not understand what he says

Thanks

You're afraid of Mortarion?

So, for 2 CP I can deep strike three blight haulers and have them shoot 3 multimeltas, 3 missile launchers and 3 bile spurts hitting on 3+ into whatever I feel like and then wait and see how my enemy tries to take down 24 T7 3+/5++/5+++ wounds.

Of course, you could just do both for 4 CP and melt whatever is most dangerous to Mortarion with your haulers.

I dont get DotW. Cant all Daemons naturally deepstrike now or did I dream that?

 Ratius wrote:
I dont get DotW. Cant all Daemons naturally deepstrike now or did I dream that?

You do get it. All daemons can DS now.

 BoomWolf wrote:
25"-31"?
Its a pistol, not an assault weapon . its 24" threat range.
The big deal is that you can summon them and still shoot it.

Screamers got real nice, I agree.

Exalted are a wash. the guns got buffed, but they got notably more expensive. I'd probably prefer the new version given the choice, but not by a large margin.

Chariot likewise, got the gun upgrade, AND the melee upgrade of the screamers-but cost more, and not exactly hard to take down, and unlike exalteds it can't hide and be a menace.

Burning Chariots are in a funny place, bulk-wise. At 8 wounds you probably want to be shooting d6 damage weapons at them, but T5 just so happens to be the lowest toughness value that anti-tank weapons don't get any extra value against - the chariot might as well be t8 against a lascannon.

You do get it. All daemons can DS now.

But you gotta spend CPs to do it using the stratagem?
Must of been dreaming so, could of sworn Daemons could deepstrike naturally

Haha okay, yeah, you were dreaming.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
25"-31"?
Its a pistol, not an assault weapon . its 24" threat range.
The big deal is that you can summon them and still shoot it.

Screamers got real nice, I agree.

Exalted are a wash. the guns got buffed, but they got notably more expensive. I'd probably prefer the new version given the choice, but not by a large margin.

Chariot likewise, got the gun upgrade, AND the melee upgrade of the screamers-but cost more, and not exactly hard to take down, and unlike exalteds it can't hide and be a menace.

Burning Chariots are in a funny place, bulk-wise. At 8 wounds you probably want to be shooting d6 damage weapons at them, but T5 just so happens to be the lowest toughness value that anti-tank weapons don't get any extra value against - the chariot might as well be t8 against a lascannon.

Yea, but you can take it out with heavy bolters and such.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
25"-31"?
Its a pistol, not an assault weapon . its 24" threat range.
The big deal is that you can summon them and still shoot it.

Screamers got real nice, I agree.

Exalted are a wash. the guns got buffed, but they got notably more expensive. I'd probably prefer the new version given the choice, but not by a large margin.

Chariot likewise, got the gun upgrade, AND the melee upgrade of the screamers-but cost more, and not exactly hard to take down, and unlike exalteds it can't hide and be a menace.

Burning Chariots are in a funny place, bulk-wise. At 8 wounds you probably want to be shooting d6 damage weapons at them, but T5 just so happens to be the lowest toughness value that anti-tank weapons don't get any extra value against - the chariot might as well be t8 against a lascannon.

A chariot can take more lascannon hits than a Leman Russ.

8 wounds on 4++>12 wounds on a 6+

Massed flashlights or other anti anti infantry dakka only need 36 hits wounding on a 5+ and is more effective than anti vehicle dakka.

Mass fire from high str low AP isn't really in the meta.

I don't think BT's needed a price drop, I feel like having them be a big chunk of points is fair. What they did right, is give them more stats, more rules, etc. So instead of being cheaper, they're just /stronger/ now, at 340 points. They feel more worth the investment.

Besides, they can now deepstrike and charge 3d6 if you are willing to invest some CP.
BT can and will wreck face.

So did Slaanesh units get anything good?
I skimmed the videos but didn't catch anything interesting for the units themselves (not stratagems or WL traits).

The new Slaanesh spells also sounds pretty meh. And why is the Daemons' Delightful Agonies a worse version of the CSM' Delightful Agonies? Why even give it the same name?

 BoomWolf wrote:
Besides, they can now deepstrike and charge 3d6 if you are willing to invest some CP.
BT can and will wreck face.

Unless I overlooked a different stratagem, only units with a banner can charge 3d6", and only if you spend 1CP before the game starts to upgrade that banner. What the BT can do is reroll charges, which is good but still too iffy for charging immediately after deep strike IMO. No guts, no glory, but a failed charge is not likely to end well. Really though, when isn't that the case for a choppy unit? Maybe good in tandem with a giant blob of bloodletters deep striking to charge 3d6" and tie up as much as possible.

I think had they made 9-18 pl 2 CP, and 18+ 3 CP it might be a bit more balanced...

But hey, I play Chaos so.

I assume that these banner stratagem are taken before battle so they can be taken multiple times, hooray for khorne. Any clues if rotigus can be given relics?

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Besides, they can now deepstrike and charge 3d6 if you are willing to invest some CP.
BT can and will wreck face.

Unless I overlooked a different stratagem, only units with a banner can charge 3d6", and only if you spend 1CP before the game starts to upgrade that banner. What the BT can do is reroll charges, which is good but still too iffy for charging immediately after deep strike IMO. No guts, no glory, but a failed charge is not likely to end well. Really though, when isn't that the case for a choppy unit? Maybe good in tandem with a giant blob of bloodletters deep striking to charge 3d6" and tie up as much as possible.

Crushers are the biggest unit that can have an Icon.

Any unit with an icon can also take an instrument for a +1 to charge for a minimum of 8 to make the charge. That's an 83.8
% chance of success without a reroll. With the reroll it's a 2.6% chance of failure.

 Ratius wrote:

You do get it. All daemons can DS now.

But you gotta spend CPs to do it using the stratagem?
Must of been dreaming so, could of sworn Daemons could deepstrike naturally

They could... Last edition. They lost the army wide deep strike rule going into 8th.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 schadenfreude wrote:

 Klor wrote:

 akwing00 wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
I cannot comprehend how badly they missed the mark on greater daemons. Almost zero changes. Absolutely embarrassing.

Yeah i can relate. I have Greater Daemons for Khorne, Tzeentch, and Nurgle, as I just love them as center piece models. Saying that, hopefully they listen to the community response and who knows maybe get some more point drops or some kind of stat modification in upcoming updates. Not out of the realm of possibility i hope.

With the deepstrike stratagem, khorne bloodthirsters went from Meh to "oh gak". Especially the rage one. His ability to double his swings (according to the leaks) makes him nasty to deal with. I don't see any of the bloodthirsters getting a point reduction. I'm more worried about them getting a price hike.

Also.. Yay for flesh hounds being cheaper now than last edition. Now if only we could brush the dust off of the blood crushers!

12 Blood crushers can now deep strike and charge on 3d6 with rerolls. That would hit like a ton of bricks and could catch a lot of units in a multi charge

At 589 pts, that would be one heck of a point sink. 3 daemon princes with malefic talons would put out equal or more damage, cost less, and award you with a command point. The bloodcrushers really just need a point tweak.

I like the armour for the Thirster but I am a little confused on how relics work. Is it one free for the whole army? I usually run a WE detatchement from CSM alongside my Daemons so is it possible to have both the Collar and Armour?

 Klor wrote:

 Ratius wrote:

You do get it. All daemons can DS now.

12 Blood crushers can now deep strike and charge on 3d6 with rerolls. That would hit like a ton of bricks and could catch a lot of units in a multi charge

At 589 pts, that would be one heck of a point sink. 3 daemon princes with malefic talons would put out equal or more damage, cost less, and award you with a command point. The bloodcrushers really just need a point tweak.

I don't think 3 Princes have the same damage output. The crushers get 48 attacks with hellblades and 36 Juggernaut attacks on the charge, vs 24 attacks for the Princes. And most importantly, it's only 2 CP to deepstrike them as opposed to 6 CP for the princes, alongside 3 charges.

Geojag13 wrote:
I like the armour for the Thirster but I am a little confused on how relics work. Is it one free for the whole army? I usually run a WE detatchement from CSM alongside my Daemons so is it possible to have both the Collar and Armour?

They work just like the CSM relics: if your warlord is Deamons you may have one free Deamon relic, two cost 1cp, three cost 3cp. You can't have a Deamon relic and a CSM relic in the same army since you can only have one warlord.

 andysonic1 wrote:

Geojag13 wrote:
I like the armour for the Thirster but I am a little confused on how relics work. Is it one free for the whole army? I usually run a WE detatchement from CSM alongside my Daemons so is it possible to have both the Collar and Armour?

They work just like the CSM relics: if your warlord is Deamons you may have one free Deamon relic, two cost 1cp, three cost 3cp. You can't have a Deamon relic and a CSM relic in the same army since you can only have one warlord.

Uh...wrong. Your free relic is determined by your warlord. Paid relics are based on stratagems, and stratagems are unlocked based on detachments. They are unrelated.

dvdchpmn93 wrote:

 Klor wrote:

 Ratius wrote:

You do get it. All daemons can DS now.

12 Blood crushers can now deep strike and charge on 3d6 with rerolls. That would hit like a ton of bricks and could catch a lot of units in a multi charge

At 589 pts, that would be one heck of a point sink. 3 daemon princes with malefic talons would put out equal or more damage, cost less, and award you with a command point. The bloodcrushers really just need a point tweak.

I don't think 3 Princes have the same damage output. The crushers get 48 attacks with hellblades and 36 Juggernaut attacks on the charge, vs 24 attacks for the Princes. And most importantly, it's only 2 CP to deepstrike them as opposed to 6 CP for the princes, alongside 3 charges.

Assuming you can get all 12 bloodcrushers around your target. They have some hefty base sizes. The chances of getting all 12 in melee range of units will be slim. They are also more likely to die in overwatch than a DP is.

 Spreelock wrote:
I assume that these banner stratagem are taken before battle so they can be taken multiple times, hooray for khorne. Any clues if rotigus can be given relics?

Named Characters have always had unique relics and it specifically states in every entry thus far they cannot take additional Relics. So it's safe to assume no.

 Virules wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:

Geojag13 wrote:
I like the armour for the Thirster but I am a little confused on how relics work. Is it one free for the whole army? I usually run a WE detatchement from CSM alongside my Daemons so is it possible to have both the Collar and Armour?

They work just like the CSM relics: if your warlord is Deamons you may have one free Deamon relic, two cost 1cp, three cost 3cp. You can't have a Deamon relic and a CSM relic in the same army since you can only have one warlord.

Uh...wrong. Your free relic is determined by your warlord. Paid relics are based on stratagems, and stratagems are unlocked based on detachments. They are unrelated.

Is there an FAQ with that somewhere or some ruling? Because that doesn't seem correct.

 andysonic1 wrote:

 Virules wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:

Geojag13 wrote:
I like the armour for the Thirster but I am a little confused on how relics work. Is it one free for the whole army? I usually run a WE detatchement from CSM alongside my Daemons so is it possible to have both the Collar and Armour?

They work just like the CSM relics: if your warlord is Deamons you may have one free Deamon relic, two cost 1cp, three cost 3cp. You can't have a Deamon relic and a CSM relic in the same army since you can only have one warlord.

Uh...wrong. Your free relic is determined by your warlord. Paid relics are based on stratagems, and stratagems are unlocked based on detachments. They are unrelated.

Is there an FAQ with that somewhere or some ruling? Because that doesn't seem correct.

I believe you are right. The stratagem says you get one extra chaos relic for 1 command point or 2 for 3 cp. To me that means you have to already have a chaos relic to get another one. But I can see it the other way as well, English is a fun language.

Looks like TS gained the Mualith



wonder if it has the Daemon rule? not to savvy with its lore.

Azuza001 wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:

 Virules wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:

Geojag13 wrote:
I like the armour for the Thirster but I am a little confused on how relics work. Is it one free for the whole army? I usually run a WE detatchement from CSM alongside my Daemons so is it possible to have both the Collar and Armour?

They work just like the CSM relics: if your warlord is Deamons you may have one free Deamon relic, two cost 1cp, three cost 3cp. You can't have a Deamon relic and a CSM relic in the same army since you can only have one warlord.

Uh...wrong. Your free relic is determined by your warlord. Paid relics are based on stratagems, and stratagems are unlocked based on detachments. They are unrelated.

Is there an FAQ with that somewhere or some ruling? Because that doesn't seem correct.

I believe you are right. The stratagem says you get one extra chaos relic for 1 command point or 2 for 3 cp. To me that means you have to already have a chaos relic to get another one. But I can see it the other way as well, English is a fun language.

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Codex_Death_Guard_ENG.pdf

Confirms you can use command points to purchase relics providing you have a detachment. So you can have multiple relics from different factions.