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yukishiro1 wrote: Brad Chester's AOW40k podcast interview made it sound like the playtesters possibly didn't have the new points values when they were testing.
I can imagine different teams got different stuff based on what they were testing. Was he doing matched or narrative? Or maybe they used 8th points so GW could get feedback on how it impacted different things so they could adjust them from there?
It's possible they all all got the same test packets and points but when they receive feedback they don't return to the playtesters, so if they placed a unit at 17, the playtesters all said it should be 19-21 they just publish it at 20.
Or testing was done like for 8th. "here's 2 army lists and their rules, play it out, tell your opinions"
yukishiro1 wrote: Brad Chester's AOW40k podcast interview made it sound like the playtesters possibly didn't have the new points values when they were testing.
I can imagine different teams got different stuff based on what they were testing. Was he doing matched or narrative? Or maybe they used 8th points so GW could get feedback on how it impacted different things so they could adjust them from there?
It's possible they all all got the same test packets and points but when they receive feedback they don't return to the playtesters, so if they placed a unit at 17, the playtesters all said it should be 19-21 they just publish it at 20.
Or testing was done like for 8th. "here's 2 army lists and their rules, play it out, tell your opinions"
I don't know if it's that simple anymore if only because of the feedback the devs have gotten abouy the playtesting from the community.
yukishiro1 wrote: Yeah that was kinda the impression I got: the playtesters were given points values of some sort, but they were provisional, with the understanding they would change based on feedback.
Because he did say somewhere something to the effect that "stuff that everybody complained about in 8th will probably get a big points hike, stuff that didn't won't, rather than an across the board 20%." So that implies they had at least some info.
This worries me as most of the stuff people complained about was stuff that toptables gave 0 cares about as the units generally weren't have as busted as people complained they were.
Sadly this probably means I'll be skipping 9th entirely.
Well maybe get some more models added to my armies for 1pth edition then.
I just want to watch 2 beautifully painted armies battle it out on a good looking board using new rules that I'll be using until 10 edition comes out.
I know Brian said the traditional Tau castle will change. Be curious to see how many Tau players watch the battle report and still decided to Ebay their armies.
Maybe I'll start a 4th army with all the cheap ebay discounts we'll see. LOL.
Well he's one of the top players in the world, so I think he meant by that the stuff that the tournament circuit complained about. TFCs being undercosted, that kind of thing.
yukishiro1 wrote: Well he's one of the top players in the world, so I think he meant by that the stuff that the tournament circuit complained about. TFCs being undercosted, that kind of thing.
Via netlisting some of that has always had a knock down effect into less competetive games so seeing it fixed is a good thing.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/02 21:29:58
Tabletop Titans: 9th is even more of a shooting edition because it's much easier to draw LOS to stuff than it was in ITC 8th now due to obscuring being so much less effective at blocking LOS than the ITC "bottom floor is solid" rule. Also, T'au overwatch is even more powerful than before, thanks to freeing up support systems, and MSU shield drone spam is also even more powerful than ever.
Shouldn't be a surprise to anyone, but disappointing to see none-the-less.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/07/02 21:38:31
Does this mean Iron Hands have a gimmick again? Terminator Captain, THSS, Gorgon chains & All Fleah Is Weakness, for an amazing 1+ 4++ 5+++ with -1 to wound against incoming shooting. Smashfether returns!!!
yukishiro1 wrote: Tabletop Titans: 9th is even more of a shooting edition because it's much easier to draw LOS to stuff than it was in ITC 8th now due to obscuring being so much less effective at blocking LOS than the ITC "bottom floor is solid" rule. Also, T'au overwatch is even more powerful than before, thanks to freeing up support systems, and MSU shield drone spam is also even more powerful than ever.
Shouldn't be a surprise to anyone, but disappointing to see none-the-less.
How is it worse the ITC rule? Because it doesn't let you hide in a.magic box?
yukishiro1 wrote: Tabletop Titans: 9th is even more of a shooting edition because it's much easier to draw LOS to stuff than it was in ITC 8th now due to obscuring being so much less effective at blocking LOS than the ITC "bottom floor is solid" rule.
Shouldn't be a surprise to anyone, but disappointing to see none-the-less.
True but armor save increases from being in ruins and other terrain with the "heavy cover" trait and "dense cover" like trees giving a -1 to hit, while not completely denying units shots, does increase survivability compared to standing in the open on planet bowling ball.
The 3 armies I play like the new terrain rules for the most part and no, they aren't SM (well Deathguard but they aren't anywhere near the power level of loyalist marines, even with the buffs from PA).
StarHunter25 wrote: Does this mean Iron Hands have a gimmick again? Terminator Captain, THSS, Gorgon chains & All Fleah Is Weakness, for an amazing 1+ 4++ 5+++ with -1 to wound against incoming shooting. Smashfether returns!!!
No one knows for sure and continually guessing at this point is meaningless.
yukishiro1 wrote: Tabletop Titans: 9th is even more of a shooting edition because it's much easier to draw LOS to stuff than it was in ITC 8th now due to obscuring being so much less effective at blocking LOS than the ITC "bottom floor is solid" rule. Also, T'au overwatch is even more powerful than before, thanks to freeing up support systems, and MSU shield drone spam is also even more powerful than ever.
Shouldn't be a surprise to anyone, but disappointing to see none-the-less.
How is it worse the ITC rule? Because it doesn't let you hide in a.magic box?
Because in ITC 8th you can be in the ruin and have LOS blocked. In 9th you have to be behind the ruin to block LOS; if you take a step inside you can be blown off the table just like there was no ruin there at all, except for maybe some token -1 to hit or +1 to saving throws that absolutely won't save you against something proper shooty. It's a massive difference, as I've been stating since it was revealed. It means you have to be way further back in order to get the LOS blocking effect.
yukishiro1 wrote: Tabletop Titans: 9th is even more of a shooting edition because it's much easier to draw LOS to stuff than it was in ITC 8th now due to obscuring being so much less effective at blocking LOS than the ITC "bottom floor is solid" rule.
How is this possible? ITC "bottom floor is solid" LOS is the same as entire building blocks LOS...?
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yukishiro1 wrote: Tabletop Titans: 9th is even more of a shooting edition because it's much easier to draw LOS to stuff than it was in ITC 8th now due to obscuring being so much less effective at blocking LOS than the ITC "bottom floor is solid" rule.
How is this possible? ITC "bottom floor is solid" LOS is the same as entire building blocks LOS...?
See above. In ITC 8th you can be in the ruin and be safe; in 9th you have to be behind the ruin to be safe - and if the opponent steps into the ruin, they can shoot you too. It's a massive difference.
Surely a fan made version of 8th is irrelevant when comparing 8th to 9th in terms of their actual rules. What ITC decide to do with 9th edition is entirely up in the air.
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Lizardmen (3000+ point 8th ed army)
GSC (1500ish points)
Cothique High Elves, Legio Astorum, Flesh Tearers, and plenty more on the go.
mould2k wrote: Surely a fan made version of 8th is irrelevant when comparing 8th to 9th in terms of their actual rules. What ITC decide to do with 9th edition is entirely up in the air.
Well, except that the "fan-made" version is what 99% of the competitive game used. It was the default, much more than the "real" rules were, because those rules were so lacking.
Also, they have already announced they'll follow the base 9th edition rules, so it isn't up in the air at all. If it's a disaster they or some other organization might come up with their own rules, but it's 100% clear that at launch ITC will be using the base 9th rules.
Its still a fan made set of house rules, it is also way less common in the UK than US.
Talking about ITCs set of house rules like that was what the actual 8th edition rules is simply erroneous, regardless of the competitive scene in the US.
(3000+ Points)
Lizardmen (3000+ point 8th ed army)
GSC (1500ish points)
Cothique High Elves, Legio Astorum, Flesh Tearers, and plenty more on the go.
mould2k wrote: Its still a fan made set of house rules, it is also way less common in the UK than US.
Talking about ITCs set of house rules like that was what the actual 8th edition rules is simply erroneous, regardless of the competitive scene in the US.
You're welcome to your opinion, but it's an opinion all competitive players will ignore, because the "bottom floor of ruins block LOS" rule was universal across competitive 40k in 8th edition. People call it the ITC rule for short in the US, but it was in ETC and WTC too. I'm not aware of any serious competitive format that didn't use it.
"It doesn't matter what competitive 40k was actually like in 8th when comparing it to competitive 40k in 9th" is not a take any competitive player is going to take very seriously.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/02 21:59:28
yukishiro1 wrote: Tabletop Titans: 9th is even more of a shooting edition because it's much easier to draw LOS to stuff than it was in ITC 8th now due to obscuring being so much less effective at blocking LOS than the ITC "bottom floor is solid" rule. Also, T'au overwatch is even more powerful than before, thanks to freeing up support systems, and MSU shield drone spam is also even more powerful than ever.
Shouldn't be a surprise to anyone, but disappointing to see none-the-less.
That's not a problem with 9th, that's a problem with the terrain people use. While the 8th edition terrain rules were terrible and I understand that FLG had a vested interest in coming up with a "fix" that didn't invalidate all their terrain, the best solution to 8th's bad terrain rules would have been to make terrain that actually blocks LoS instead of house-ruling it. We saw that start to happen with the boring and ubiquitous L-shaped ruins popping up everywhere. I think combining proper LoS blockers with 9ths new terrain rules should be the way forward from now on.
yukishiro1 wrote: Tabletop Titans: 9th is even more of a shooting edition because it's much easier to draw LOS to stuff than it was in ITC 8th now due to obscuring being so much less effective at blocking LOS than the ITC "bottom floor is solid" rule. Also, T'au overwatch is even more powerful than before, thanks to freeing up support systems, and MSU shield drone spam is also even more powerful than ever.
Shouldn't be a surprise to anyone, but disappointing to see none-the-less.
That's not a problem with 9th, that's a problem with the terrain people use. While the 8th edition terrain rules were terrible and I understand that FLG had a vested interest in coming up with a "fix" that didn't invalidate all their terrain, the best solution to 8th's bad terrain rules would have been to make terrain that actually blocks LoS instead of house-ruling it. We saw that start to happen with the boring and ubiquitous L-shaped ruins popping up everywhere. I think combining proper LoS blockers with 9ths new terrain rules should be the way forward from now on.
Well, sort-of. But it's not like it was only FLG with the terrain full of holes. Practically every piece of GW's terrain is the same. The "bottom floor blocks LOS" thing was a great compromise because it let people use cool-looking terrain without turning everything into a shooting gallery.
9th should have just followed it, not come up with an "obscuring" rule that doesn't actually obscure if you're in the terrain in question, but only if you're behind it.
yukishiro1 wrote: Tabletop Titans: 9th is even more of a shooting edition because it's much easier to draw LOS to stuff than it was in ITC 8th now due to obscuring being so much less effective at blocking LOS than the ITC "bottom floor is solid" rule. Also, T'au overwatch is even more powerful than before, thanks to freeing up support systems, and MSU shield drone spam is also even more powerful than ever.
Shouldn't be a surprise to anyone, but disappointing to see none-the-less.
That's not a problem with 9th, that's a problem with the terrain people use. While the 8th edition terrain rules were terrible and I understand that FLG had a vested interest in coming up with a "fix" that didn't invalidate all their terrain, the best solution to 8th's bad terrain rules would have been to make terrain that actually blocks LoS instead of house-ruling it. We saw that start to happen with the boring and ubiquitous L-shaped ruins popping up everywhere. I think combining proper LoS blockers with 9ths new terrain rules should be the way forward from now on.
because bombed out ruins are
a) easy to make b) looking awesome c) are immersive as hell
on the other hand bombed out ruins with all windows closed, barricaded or blackened just look...odd...
having the first floor of ruins blocking LOS, regardless if someone is inside or behind, is an easy and elegant fix to prevent stuff to be shot at. But since shooting stuff seems to be the goal in this edition... why bother?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/02 22:20:52
yukishiro1 wrote: Tabletop Titans: 9th is even more of a shooting edition because it's much easier to draw LOS to stuff than it was in ITC 8th now due to obscuring being so much less effective at blocking LOS than the ITC "bottom floor is solid" rule.
How is this possible? ITC "bottom floor is solid" LOS is the same as entire building blocks LOS...?
See above. In ITC 8th you can be in the ruin and be safe; in 9th you have to be behind the ruin to be safe - and if the opponent steps into the ruin, they can shoot you too. It's a massive difference.
I mean, yeah, if you're playing with terrain that hardly blocks LOS already. In 9th, you still have to see the unit to shoot it. It's not like if I am halfway across the board, can't see your unit in a ruin, and am allowed to shoot it because it is in Obscuring terrain. It's more realistic, imo, and doesn't lend itself to abuse as much as the ITC rule.
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And yet what it does do is radically increase the amount of stuff that can be shot. That's the point. You can think that's a good thing, but that's the result.
So, those 2 Chapter Approved books.. Anyone know if that content gonna be included in the Indomitus rulebook? Or will we still have to buy them separately?
yukishiro1 wrote: And yet what it does do is radically increase the amount of stuff that can be shot. That's the point. You can think that's a good thing, but that's the result.
Sure. Everyone has an opinion on whether it's better or not. But it largely depends on the terrain you play on as well.
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Necros wrote: So, those 2 Chapter Approved books.. Anyone know if that content gonna be included in the Indomitus rulebook? Or will we still have to buy them separately?
They're separate from the main rulebook, just like in 8E.
Also, in 9th, looking at the rules, there's no limitations on vehicles, bikers and monsters entering ruins or going over walls. You have to pay movement for it, but you can move your tank straight up a vertical wall, get to the top, then move it straight down the vertical wall, ending on the other side (or in the middle of the ruin). Which is a bit funny.
Automatically Appended Next Post: P.S. Per Tabletop Titans, you can give the Assault Intercessors Sergeants hammers and other upgrades. It's just the datasheets in the box that don't let you you do that.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/07/02 22:48:59
yukishiro1 wrote: Also, in 9th, looking at the rules, there's no limitations on vehicles, bikers and monsters entering ruins or going over walls. You have to pay movement for it, but you can move your tank straight up a vertical wall, get to the top, then move it straight down the vertical wall, ending on the other side (or in the middle of the ruin). Which is a bit funny.
Automatically Appended Next Post: P.S. Per Tabletop Titans, you can give the Assault Intercessors Sergeants hammers and other upgrades. It's just the datasheets in the box that don't let you you do that.
Except most common terrain will probably have the scaleable trait, which limits climbing to infantry, beasts, swarms, and fly models. Terrain is all about the traits really. Ruins, for example, have scaleable.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/07/02 22:52:47
yukishiro1 wrote: Also, in 9th, looking at the rules, there's no limitations on vehicles, bikers and monsters entering ruins or going over walls. You have to pay movement for it, but you can move your tank straight up a vertical wall, get to the top, then move it straight down the vertical wall, ending on the other side (or in the middle of the ruin). Which is a bit funny.
Most likely it will only be possible with obstructions that are a bit over 1" right? Except super fast tanks advancing like certain ork vehicles which could make it up and down a 5" wall of infinite length with some room to spare. Which I guess to imagine it in world could be explained away by the vehicle grinding and trundling over the rubble of said obstruction.
yukishiro1 wrote: Tabletop Titans: 9th is even more of a shooting edition because it's much easier to draw LOS to stuff than it was in ITC 8th now due to obscuring being so much less effective at blocking LOS than the ITC "bottom floor is solid" rule. Also, T'au overwatch is even more powerful than before, thanks to freeing up support systems, and MSU shield drone spam is also even more powerful than ever.
Shouldn't be a surprise to anyone, but disappointing to see none-the-less.
That's not a problem with 9th, that's a problem with the terrain people use. While the 8th edition terrain rules were terrible and I understand that FLG had a vested interest in coming up with a "fix" that didn't invalidate all their terrain, the best solution to 8th's bad terrain rules would have been to make terrain that actually blocks LoS instead of house-ruling it. We saw that start to happen with the boring and ubiquitous L-shaped ruins popping up everywhere. I think combining proper LoS blockers with 9ths new terrain rules should be the way forward from now on.
Well, sort-of. But it's not like it was only FLG with the terrain full of holes. Practically every piece of GW's terrain is the same. The "bottom floor blocks LOS" thing was a great compromise because it let people use cool-looking terrain without turning everything into a shooting gallery.
9th should have just followed it, not come up with an "obscuring" rule that doesn't actually obscure if you're in the terrain in question, but only if you're behind it.
Doesn't work for anything 18+ wounds either, even if the terrain actually fully obscures it from LOS, because "reasons".
Necros wrote:So, those 2 Chapter Approved books.. Anyone know if that content gonna be included in the Indomitus rulebook? Or will we still have to buy them separately?
If you want the tournament stuff you need the new ca. One assumes that the points will be available on the App, otherwise why would you pay for it?
yukishiro1 wrote:Also, in 9th, looking at the rules, there's no limitations on vehicles, bikers and monsters entering ruins or going over walls. You have to pay movement for it, but you can move your tank straight up a vertical wall, get to the top, then move it straight down the vertical wall, ending on the other side (or in the middle of the ruin). Which is a bit funny.
Isn't "scalable" only applicable to infantry? Pretty sure that's what I read.
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