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ShadarLogoth wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
Yeah that's not a terrible use, but also that's like a minimum 1000 point formation that's reliant on the enemy not just killing it then killing your warriors.

It's not terrible, it's just not all that either.

1 Squad of Warriors w/ Ghost Ark

1 Squad of Warriors w/ Ghost Ark

1 Squad of 10 Immortals

1 Squad of 10 Immortals

1 Monolith

= 1010

Minimum Cost : 630

It'd be a amazing formaton if it didn't include the Immortals.

You wouldn't have to max out the immortals.

It's intriguing, though as it is one way of actually repairing Immortals.

The thing I don't like about it, though, is they all lose Ob Sec. Would be much more intriguing IMHO if they kept it some how.

The Immortals should just be min'd out and you really only need 1 Ghost Ark. I'd rather do something like:

10x Warriors w/ Ghost Ark
20x Warriors
5x Immortals
5x Immortals
Monolith

865 points. Could cut the Warriors down to 15, but hey, go big or go home. Take Szeras or a general Cryptek from a CAD and throw him him with the Blob to keep them safe, the Immortals are just moving around to be objective grabbers. You can bump up the Immortals a bit, but if I'm taking a CAD with this I'll be taking 2 more min squads of 5 Immortals so keeping them small is fine overall.

A 20 man Warriors blob with 4+, possibly 5++ against shooting, 4+++, and gaining d3+d6 Warriors back a turn is pretty unkillable.

Maybe I'll use this bad boy in a list and see what happens.

Wait, I thought Crypteks could take Technoarcana, which included Res Orbs?

Don't have the dex with me. What can the Crypteks take if not Res Orbs?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

The Immortals should just be min'd out and you really only need 1 Ghost Ark. I'd rather do something like:

10x Warriors w/ Ghost Ark
20x Warriors
5x Immortals
5x Immortals
Monolith

865 points. Could cut the Warriors down to 15, but hey, go big or go home. Take Szeras or a general Cryptek from a CAD and throw him him with the Blob to keep them safe, the Immortals are just moving around to be objective grabbers. You can bump up the Immortals a bit, but if I'm taking a CAD with this I'll be taking 2 more min squads of 5 Immortals so keeping them small is fine overall.

A 20 man Warriors blob with 4+, possibly 5++ against shooting, 4+++, and gaining d3+d6 Warriors back a turn is pretty unkillable.

Maybe I'll use this bad boy in a list and see what happens.

Yep, agreed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So, throwing around some numbers on a full Army with the Conclave ::




1980?

Not sure what to do with the rest of the points. Seems like between the Conclave and 2 Imo guided 10 x FOs you could cause some havoc. The Stalkers and HDs should keep the meaty bits nice and outside their vehicles for you.

Crypteks can take Technoarcana they are restricted though on taking the Res Orb, it's only for the terrible Lord.

Who has no purpose now basically.

Hollismason wrote:
Crypteks can take Technoarcana they are restricted though on taking the Res Orb, it's only for the terrible Lord.

Who has no purpose now basically.

Well, they can potentially be both a Warscythe and a Staff of Light addition to a unit now, right? As well as being your one access to a Res Orb, other then Olords.

Interesting, though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What Relics are the Crypteks restricted from taking, then?

They can't take void reaper and the orb.

Have people considered this Zarathusa's Royal Decurion?

It's actually pretty interesting because of this:

Crusader, Counter-attack, Fearless, Monster Hunters. The effects last until the start of your next turn. You cannot use this special rule if the Necron Overlord from this Formation has been removed as a casualty.

That's not terrible at all plus the units are not like terrible

1 Necron Overlord
1 unit of Immortals
2 units of Necron Warriors
1 Ghost Ark
1 Doom Scythe
1 unit of Triarch Praetorians
1 Triarch Stalker
1 unit of Deathmarks
2 units of Canoptek Wraiths Wraiths w/ Counter attack or Monster Hunter is pretty interesting.

Hrmmm

1295 mimum cost by my count which is enough to buff it up to 1800 pretty easily, plus you can still take a Nightscythe for the Immortals, etc..

Yeah, it's an interesting one to look back on.

Plus, you can take the super formation and give the conclave and he mono formation the free love as well, although I don't even think you can do that under 2.5k now.

I'll have to play around with that. Thanks for bringing it back into the mix, Hollisman.

It's a incredibly balanced list really, it'd have been nice to have a improvement with the Triarch but honestly you got 3 Assault units, 1 Interceptor unit, A Flyer.

How do we as Necrons take on a Admantite lance these days? Without haywires it looks like an impossible job to me...

 Valek wrote:
How do we as Necrons take on a Admantite lance these days? Without haywires it looks like an impossible job to me...

VB/PC TPs and Wraiths do pretty well against them, I think. Enough Heavy Ds and Gauss will do the trick as well.

Requizen wrote:


A 20 man Warriors blob with 4+, possibly 5++ against shooting, 4+++, and gaining d3+d6 Warriors back a turn is pretty unkillable.

Maybe I'll use this bad boy in a list and see what happens.

I missed something here. What is giving the d6 warriors back?

Fragile wrote:

Requizen wrote:


A 20 man Warriors blob with 4+, possibly 5++ against shooting, 4+++, and gaining d3+d6 Warriors back a turn is pretty unkillable.

Maybe I'll use this bad boy in a list and see what happens.

I missed something here. What is giving the d6 warriors back?

Requizen wrote:

Spoiler:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
From what I've seen in battlereports, the Decurion detachment is extremely resilient but not very killy. Which would be great if you could get obj. secured units but alas you can not.

And I think that's the downfall of the Newcrons, survivable but not killy enough and lack Obj. Secured to take advantage of being survivable. So I think a CAD is the way to go. What CADs can you come up with?

My go at it:
HQ
Cryptek w/ chrono
Destroyer Lord w/ PhaseShifter, Phylactery, Warscythe
Troops
10x Warrior w/ Ghost Ark
10x Warrior w/ Ghost Ark
20x Warrior (cryptek joins these)
Fast Attack
6x Wraiths w/ Whip Coil (Destroyer Lord joins)
6x Wraiths w/ Whip Coil
8x Tomb Blades w/ Shield Vanes, Nebuloscope
Heavy Support
3x Heavy Destoyers

It has the resilient core of troops with objective secured and as many of the heavy hitters in the codex as I could fit in. A Stalker is a great force multiplier but I don't find them to live long enough to do anything. This is an 1850 list so at 2000 I guess you could add an Stalker easily enough.

Debating between building my battleforce with a Ghost Ark, or a Doomsday Ark. Is the Ghost Ark pretty universally considered to be the better build?

 tetrisphreak wrote:
Debating between building my battleforce with a Ghost Ark, or a Doomsday Ark. Is the Ghost Ark pretty universally considered to be the better build?

Absolutely. The Ghost Ark has been good to useful ever since it came out. The Doomsday Ark is a fun tank but it isn't the workhorse that a Ghost Ark is.

Yeah it is. You'll get more use out of the ghost ark.

Thanks guys.

Hollismason wrote:They can't take void reaper and the orb.

Have people considered this Zarathusa's Royal Decurion?

It's decent and the bonuses are nice, but it's not great by any means. 4 Troops choices (counting Ghost Ark as Dedicated in this situation) that don't have ObSec is heavy to pay for what is kinda sorta army wide Orders.

Valek wrote:How do we as Necrons take on a Admantite lance these days? Without haywires it looks like an impossible job to me...

Tesla Destructors still do it well, bring a couple Night Scythes and they should pull a Hull Point or two.
Heavy Destroyers, especially in the Formation, do it just fine. That many Lascannons is nothing to sneeze at.
Wraiths have the capability. It takes a lot of them (9, last calculation I saw), but they're durable enough to weather all but 6s from D weapons and Rending/Entropic can chip away at one. Give them TransBeamers and they have the capability to Pen a Hull Point or two off before charging in, too.
Orikan + Warscythe Lords + Shield Lychguard is something I'm considering. 3++ rerolling 1s will eat quite a number of attacks, and Warscythes can and will run roughshod through any Knight. I want to figure out how to make it work, but it's going to be a lot of points and somewhat unreliable.
On a similar vein, a full Royal Court, with some Phase Shifters, Orikan, and Warscythes isn't as durable (4++ not as good as 3++ obviously), but then they can rock around in a Ghost Ark.

Zimko wrote:

Fragile wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:
From what I've seen in battlereports, the Decurion detachment is extremely resilient but not very killy. Which would be great if you could get obj. secured units but alas you can not.

And I think that's the downfall of the Newcrons, survivable but not killy enough and lack Obj. Secured to take advantage of being survivable. So I think a CAD is the way to go. What CADs can you come up with?

Same, 4+++ is amazing.... but the limitations are bad. If I'm taking 3+ Troops choices, I want ObSec. I can get 4+++ for my gunline with Szeras.

Yeah I am gonna go back on that Resurgence that looks like a good foot slogging list to play but requires all formations army..

Resurgence
Royal Court
Judicator

When it comes to fielding the Decurion or not, I think you have to look at a few things.
The first is really, “How many Necrons am I fielding?” If you are fielding a lot then the Decurion is going to pay for itself very easy. If you plan to field a lot of Canoptek units and/or Vehicles, then you likely want to stay away from the Decurion.
I think the Decurion can pack plenty of punch into it, I think though your options may be more limited on this front. The Decurion isn’t the place for Wraithwing, that’s for sure.

There are other concerns though, such as what if you're fielding a Dynasty that's either a: Dismissive of the prowess of what are effectively lobotomised militia compared to the professional soldiers of the race, b: consider it ethically dubious to hand lobotomised citizens a rifle and use them as cannon fodder, or c: both, and therefore don't use Warriors except in the most dire of emergencies?

Or hey, just don't make much use of Tomb Blades.

It's roughly 1000 points of generic before you can start trying to do anything interesting, is all I'm saying.

It's really about ethics in the Necron Army composition.

I think if you're playing a Tomb Blade heavy army, there's no good reason not to pay for the Decurion, the troop tax is well the Troop tax, but the bonus of 4+ to the Tomb Blades makes it worth it.

1 CCB
3 Squads of 10 Tomb Blades
2 Warriors
1 immortal

Will run you north of 1000 points but still leave room to purchase other items. It's a solid choice to go with one of the other "not wraiths" CC units specifically the Judicator and then just shore up with Flayed Ones for some CC.

People get blinders on when they see the Wraiths and their a amazing unit, but point for point I'd take 660 points of Tomb Blades over Wraiths any day.

Hollismason wrote:
It's really about ethics in the Necron Army composition.

Just an example. I don't really think the Decurion hit the sweet spot compromise between formation and force organisation chart dead on, since you want enough flexibility to make your army stand out from the latter.

And the only part causing the problem is the single, large core formation rather than say... Giving you a choice between two core formations.

How I'd do it:

1 Mandatory Command per core, 1+ Core, 1-10 supplementary formations per core.

Royal Court: Overlord, Crypteks, Lords, Lychguard.

Core formation 1: Warriors, Tomb Blades, Monoliths.

Core formation 2: Immortals and Deathmarks.

And before someone comments "Just take a CAD", this conversation is about reasons to take/not take a Decurion in the first place. I'm just spelling out one of the not take reasons.

So I'm trying to make Orikanstar work. Base of Orikan + 5 Shield Lychguard is 270 points. Durable, 3++ rerolling 1s, 4+++. Good at Assault, 10 AP3 attacks and 2/4 AP2 attacks. Not bad. But we'll want more AP2 if this is going to be a Deathstar, which means Warscythes. Overlords, Lords, and Obyron are our choices. Well, I suppose Anrakyr has one, but he's paying 35 extra points over a normal Overlord for the Immortal boost (situationally useful at best) and Mind in the Machine (again, situational), so pass.

An Overlord with just a Warscythe is 100 points. Lords with just Warscythes are 70. Obyron is 120. This is where it starts to get expensive. Obyron is still pretty great in CC - 2+, WS6, great in challenges, though only W2. Regular Overlords/Lords are good as well, though they could probably stand to pick up Phase Shifters and other goodies. I think Orikan + 2 others is pretty fine, so either an Overlord and a Lord, or two Lords, or an Overlord + Obyron.

Now, we also have to figure out how to get them to where they need to be. They aren't Wraiths, they ain't moving across the board in leaps and bounds. So we have two options.
a) Night Scythe. Not bad, but 130 points now. But with a 36" move -> deploy zone, followed by Run moves, they're basically guaranteed to charge the turn after they arrive. However, there's always Reserve failures, even if you bring someone like Zahndrekh or Imotekh for Reserve Roll boosts.
b) Veil of Darkness/Obyron's Mantle. This is nice in that you can start on the board, jump, and then charge turn 2. The obvious downside is mishaps. You can try a gimmick of Veil'd Zahndrekh -> no-scatter Obyron, but this Deathstar is already expensive enough without needing Zahndrekh and a Veil on top of it. Besides, you still have the chance that Zahndrekh and his squad will just scatter into a bad position as well.

So the two that I'm thinking of at this point are:

Orikan
5 Shieldguard w/ Night Scythe
Overlord w/ Warscythe, Res Orb
Lord w/ Warscythe
595 points

Orikan
5 Shieldguard
Overlord w/Warscythe, Res Orb
Obyron
515 points

First is nearly 600 points and has to start in reserve, but the Flyer isn't exactly bad. Second is 80 points less and starts on the board, but is less reliable to get into combat.

What do you think is the way to make this unit work?

Hollismason wrote:
It's really about ethics in the Necron Army composition.

I think if you're playing a Tomb Blade heavy army, there's no good reason not to pay for the Decurion, the troop tax is well the Troop tax, but the bonus of 4+ to the Tomb Blades makes it worth it.

1 CCB
3 Squads of 10 Tomb Blades
2 Warriors
1 immortal

Will run you north of 1000 points but still leave room to purchase other items. It's a solid choice to go with one of the other "not wraiths" CC units specifically the Judicator and then just shore up with Flayed Ones for some CC.

People get blinders on when they see the Wraiths and their a amazing unit, but point for point I'd take 660 points of Tomb Blades over Wraiths any day.

I Agree with the Wraith Issue. They are an incredible unit, but I don't think we need to run that anymore to be competitive. The days of 3 abarges, 2 ccbs and 3 units of Wraiths is over.


Tomb Blades have shown so far to be pretty incredible in my experience. They pack a lot of firepower, for very cheap, they are quick, and they are durable in the Decurion.

I'd veil. Deep striking aggressively usually isn't too bad in practice unless you're moving an entire blob or trying to squeeze into a small space near a board edge. Certainly, you can afford to take Dangerous Terrain tests easily enough. If you got for a Cryptek this also has the benefit of giving you 4+++ against instant death if you're not in a Decurion.

If you are in a Decurion, put the Reclamation Legion Overlord in the Deathstar for rerolling ones on reanimation too.

And yeah, I wouldn't even call the base unit a Deathstar any more than I'd call assault terminators with a combat character a Deathstar. It's just good synergy.

Zimko wrote:

From what I've seen in battlereports, the Decurion detachment is extremely resilient but not very killy. Which would be great if you could get obj. secured units but alas you can not.

And I think that's the downfall of the Newcrons, survivable but not killy enough and lack Obj. Secured to take advantage of being survivable. So I think a CAD is the way to go. What CADs can you come up with?

My go at it:
HQ
Cryptek w/ chrono
Destroyer Lord w/ PhaseShifter, Phylactery, Warscythe
Troops
10x Warrior w/ Ghost Ark
10x Warrior w/ Ghost Ark
20x Warrior (cryptek joins these)
Fast Attack
6x Wraiths w/ Whip Coil (Destroyer Lord joins)
6x Wraiths w/ Whip Coil
8x Tomb Blades w/ Shield Vanes, Nebuloscope
Heavy Support
3x Heavy Destoyers

It has the resilient core of troops with objective secured and as many of the heavy hitters in the codex as I could fit in. A Stalker is a great force multiplier but I don't find them to live long enough to do anything. This is an 1850 list so at 2000 I guess you could add an Stalker easily enough.

Those wraiths with dlord are going to be painfully slow. Anyways my try at 1500 points

HQ
Overlord - PS, Phylactery, Warscythe, Veil, Res Orb
Cryptek - Chrono, Solar Staff

Troops
10x Warriors w/ Ghost Ark
10x Immortals w/ NIght Scythe

Fast Attack
6x Wraiths w/ Whip Coils

Elites
10x Lychguard

Heavy Support
Doom Scythe

Idea is all the Lychguard, the OL and Cryptek are a psuedo-deathstar with a one time use invisiblity and deep strike from on the table. Could be fun, I really want to use lychguard.


I have a question for the thread. I recently learned that according to the BRB, Praetorians aren't able to shoot their Rod and then use it in melee in the same turn, c/d?

I used something like Orikan, vargard, OL from the Reclaimation, and 5 shield lychgard. It's an amazing unit for taking shooting and if you can get it into melee but the point cost is insane and for the same points, you could take a beefed up destroyer cult, Judicator Battalion, maxed canopatek swarm, etc. For something only moving 6" a turn, it's not terrible hard to stay away from it.

changemod wrote:
I'd veil. Deep striking aggressively usually isn't too bad in practice unless you're moving an entire blob or trying to squeeze into a small space near a board edge. Certainly, you can afford to take Dangerous Terrain tests easily enough. If you got for a Cryptek this also has the benefit of giving you 4+++ against instant death if you're not in a Decurion.

If you are in a Decurion, put the Reclamation Legion Overlord in the Deathstar for rerolling ones on reanimation too.

And yeah, I wouldn't even call the base unit a Deathstar any more than I'd call assault terminators with a combat character a Deathstar. It's just good synergy.

The issue I've found is that if you choose a safe landing zone and scatter, even if you run, the opponent gets a good chance to make distance between you. The power of the Scythe is that, as long as they're around 42" away from your table edge (i.e. most of the board in Dawn of War or Vanguard and over half of Hammer and Anvil), you basically start on top of them.

Still, there's something to be said for traversing the length of the board on turn 1. You could make an interesting Alpha Strike list, something like:

Orikan
Obyron
Overlord w/ Warscythe
5x Lychguard

Conclave of the Burning One
Nightbringer
Cryptek w/ God Shackle, Veil of Darkness
Cryptek w/ Solar Staff

910 points for both, though might change with upgrades (Res Orb/Phase Shifter/etc on Overlord, Chronometron/Solar Thermasite on the Conclave). A bit expensive, but both of those just pop over onto your opponent's doorstep turn 1.

Coincidentally, Orikan/Obyron/Overlord is exactly the base requirements for a Royal Court, which means that even when not part of a Decurion, the Lychguard will have Move Through Cover and therefore will ignore Difficult/Dangerous Terrain when landing. Conclave has it because Monstrous Creature.

Expensive for an 1850 list (assuming regular tournament points), but for an Alpha Strike you could do a lot worse. Two very tough squads with high killing power jumping across, and then ~800 points controlling your backfield and moving forward. Maybe an 1850 list like:

CAD:
HQ
Nemesor Zahndrekh (still stupidly good)

Elites
5x Lychguard w/ Shields

Troops
5x Immortals in Night Scythe
10x Warriors in Ghost Ark
14x Warriors

Heavy Support
3x Heavy Destroyers

Royal Court:
Orikan
Obyron
Overlord w/ Warscythe

Conclave of the Burning One:
Nightbringer
Cryptek w/ God Shackle, Veil of Darkness
Cryptek w/ Solar Staff

1842

2 durable Turn 1 Deep Strikes, then 3 ObSec units in the backfield supported by a stupidly good Warlord, 3 Lascannons, and a Flyer with ObSec coming in when needed (thanks to Zahndrekh being able to pick Reserve manipulation traits).

Edit: Maybe better to have 3 one-man Heavy Destroyers so they can split their fire and arcs, but then they might just be First Blood.

The Decurion's really the best way to build the Death Star honestly because it's cheaper and gives it a better ability ( Teleport x 2)

Overlord w/ Veil of Darkness, Warscythe, Phase Shifter, Res Orb
10 Lychguard w/ Warscythes
Royal Court
Nemesor < Overlord
Orikan < Cryptek
Obyron < Lord

All the Lychguard can Reroll 1s on Protocols, Everyone has a 4+ ( Remember the Decurion gives the 4++ to everyone even the Royal court)

Nemesor gives the entire squad whatever bonuses that your enemy has.

Why is that though?

Well Nemesor picks a different Warlord Trait every turn which is crazy town plus you know he has ZEALOT.

Hollismason wrote:
The Decurion's really the best way to build the Death Star honestly because it's cheaper and gives it a better ability ( Teleport x 2)

Overlord w/ Veil of Darkness, Warscythe, Phase Shifter, Res Orb
10 Lychguard w/ Warscythes
Royal Court
Nemesor < Overlord
Orikan < Cryptek
Obyron < Lord

All the Lychguard can Reroll 1s on Protocols, Everyone has a 4+ ( Remember the Decurion gives the 4++ to everyone even the Royal court)

Nemesor gives the entire squad whatever bonuses that your enemy has.

You can build that same unit in CAD + Royal Court for the exact same cost. And they still have 4+ RP because Orikan gives the +1 to Reanimation since he's a Cryptek. So the only thing the Decurion gains is reroll 1s of RP (very good) and 4+ RP against ID weapons (situational at best, since you're all T5).

But on the other hand, now you're stuck in a Decurion for the rest of your army and none of your Troops will have ObSec. So it's only a minor bump in durability to build the Orikanstar this way at the loss of objective control, which can make or break games.

That's a good point for it, yeah I'd say the sacrifice is worth it although I wouldn't take Dispersion shields on the unit , just Warscythes, and I'd take a Res Orb with your Overlord for extra goodness. It's so expensive though.

Here's my take on it

CAD:
HQ
Nemesor Zahndrekh
Destroyer Lord w/ Warscythe , Phase Shifter

Elites
5x Lychguard w/ Warscythes

Troops
5 Immortals in NightScythes
5 Immortals in Night Scythes

Fast Attack
5 Wraiths w/ Whip Coils

Royal Court:
Orikan
Obyron
Overlord w/ Warscythe, Res Orb

Conclave of the Burning One:
Nightbringer
Cryptek w/ God Shackle, Veil of Darkness
Cryptek w/ Solar Staff

On the nose at 1850 should be, Enjoy just 3 units that are meant to destroy you of course though a army of Wave Serpents can just run rough shod on you all game long since you have like 0 shooting ability.