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 Shadow Walker wrote:
So the solo mode is App only? My interest in that game has now reached a zero.

The SG is to have a digital option to reveal the map to you when playing solo/co-op. The rules for playing solo/co-op are part of the core game (no app required).

 Shadow Walker wrote:
So the solo mode is App only? My interest in that game has now reached a zero.

said who?

 mattjgilbert wrote:

 Shadow Walker wrote:
So the solo mode is App only? My interest in that game has now reached a zero.

The SG is to have a digital option to reveal the map to you when playing solo/co-op. The rules for playing solo/co-op are part of the core game (no app required).

I misread it then. Thanks for the explanation

This is your periodic reminder that this forum has a handy and functional block function.

The Kickstarter is now live: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/manticgames/dungeon-saga-origins-your-adventures-start-here/description

I just backed, it's a pretty great deal overall, I can use the terrain from the first game and stick with the basic £89 pledge.

Overall, it's looking like a big improvement on the original, which I enjoyed, but setup/teardown time, a little overcomplexity and the timer mechanic were the weak spots.

Looking forward to playing this one co-op with the map reveal app.

Seems to be getting a lot of attention, already funded, probably over £100k on day one which sets things up nicely for the rest of the campaign.

The new Twilight Kin look good, hopefully won't be too long a wait for them to get the same treatment in Kings of War.

Rulebook is here, with AI overseer rules included: https://www.manticgames.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/Dungeon-Saga-Origins-Rulebook.pdf

Backed at the basic level.

I'm sure Hellboy was £89.00 for the basic pledge a few years ago, so that's some solid pricing from Mantic bearing in mind recent increases in every single bloody thing you can possibly think of.

Billicus wrote:
The new Twilight Kin look good, hopefully won't be too long a wait for them to get the same treatment in Kings of War.

Crop and repost for the curious:


Going by the concept art, these are sculpts for Neophytes (bow + glaive), Impalers (shield bro), Summoner Crones (mutating and otherwise), and our friend the Reaper.

I dug the Trident stuff Mantic premiered in League of Infamy, same for TK here. Assuming the turnaround to KOW production models will be faster as well, between the TK re-release dates we've been given and the world not in a supply chain crushing pandemic so much now.

Those look really good.

Renders always look good.

The campaign will be successful, no trouble about it. For UK based backers, it's certainly a fine deal if you take the best one. For others...be aware the pledge doesn't include import taxes and given the amount, it will be certainly salty.

As for what delays / final quality of the materials may happen 'till the release date...it's a Mantic Game kickstarter, so you've already been warned enough.

Now let the Hype make you all feel good and happy for those who want to ride !

Looking at the print quality they've used for the painted minis, I am extremely hopeful for the Twilight Kin range. Unlikely I'll ever play KoW but it's good to see a complete retake on such a classic trope.

 .Mikes. wrote:
This is your periodic reminder that this forum has a handy and functional block function.

And what a difference it makes.

removed

 Tabletop_Magpie wrote:
Looking at the print quality they've used for the painted minis, I am extremely hopeful for the Twilight Kin range. Unlikely I'll ever play KoW but it's good to see a complete retake on such a classic trope.

Agreed, they look great!

I'm in for the Legendary Pledge. We enjoyed the original DS, and I have all the 3D Terrain from past Terrain Crates.

I looked it over, and at least they're not touting a big book of vile darkness or whatever Ronnie was calling the WHQ95-esque mode in the original.

This looks like the decent repair job the original Dungeon Saga needed, but the Mantic Heroquest-inspired boardgame is just not the game I'm looking for. Especially not with League of Dungeoneers close to fulfillment.

Good luck on another big KS, I guess. I won't be involved this time.

The gameplay looks pretty generic and uninspired. Can you sum up what exactly makes it unique and different from dozens dungeon crawlers on the market?

The first daily unlock is, as many had guessed, a new hero character - a Monk. Looks cool

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/manticgames/dungeon-saga-origins-your-adventures-start-here/posts/3771974

Had to read through a lot of pointless posts to get to the actual chat last three pages.
But yeah was looking at this, decided to back at standard for now, £99 for base is really good.
Though I do like the dice tray and all the scenery, so £144 isn’t that bad to get all that included..

Cyel wrote:
The gameplay looks pretty generic and uninspired. Can you sum up what exactly makes it unique and different from dozens dungeon crawlers on the market?

It's improved Dungeon Saga made by Mantic Games. That's just it.

The real value isn't from the game itself, but the offer of the Kickstarter itself with the different "free addons / stretch goals" - and the fact they say it will be sold at a higher price in retail. Basically miniatures you can use for other better systems if you get bored with the game itself.

Sarouan wrote:
... and the fact they say it will be sold at a higher price in retail. Basically miniatures you can use for other better systems if you get bored with the game itself.

Isn't that exactly how GW sell their board games? Many people that buy those are after the minis and not the game. Your argument is a bit wasted Sarouan.

That is indeed how I decide to buy Mantic board games and GW board games. And CMON board games. And Kingdom Death board game. And Mythic board games. And Shadows of Brimstone, which turned out to be the one game we played more than once or twice.

 Gimgamgoo wrote:

Isn't that exactly how GW sell their board games? Many people that buy those are after the minis and not the game. Your argument is a bit wasted Sarouan.

Not really, GW doesn't use Kickstarter. And there are board games whose inherent value is the game itself - those that don't give fancy stretch goals with 3D miniatures and focus more on purely rule aspect. Here, it's not the case, that's just all. And it's not especially a bad thing, as long people don't have any regret with what they get in the end.

Cyel wrote:
The gameplay looks pretty generic and uninspired. Can you sum up what exactly makes it unique and different from dozens dungeon crawlers on the market?

If it’s lie the original it is a straightforward tactical dungeon crawl. Varied problems, fast play. I suppose I would call it ultra generic? None of the uniqueness of others but also none of the excesses?

Looked over the KS, and that's a darn good deal. If I didn't already have HQ I'd probably take the plunge.

Taking what others have said one step further, I take all minis boardgames and indeed all minis wargames with the considerations of both how much I might like the game and how much I will enjoy the miniatures once -and it's an inevitability in most cases- the game dies.

> Hellboy board game is Very Good.

Different designer, though. However, IIRC, Matt's the lead of the community-design for Dungeon Saga and has worked on it since the original was released, I think. The original designer, Jake Thorton, had a falling out with Mantic president (?), Ronnie Renton, when Ronnie promised content without Jake's knowing (mostly the advanced book, which was not well-received by boardgamers).

Battle Systems, btw, has its 28mm 3D dungeon terrain (walls and stuff) which should work with Dungeon Saga (and also works as ruins terrain). Note that the Maladum dungeon *game* is a separate thing you don't have to purchase.

I have the plastic furniture mentioned in the Ultimate Pledge. It works for tabletop, but that's about it. (Yes, every time there's a Reaper or Mantic KS, someone expects display-level miniatures.) I hated painting the pre-assembled bookshelves -- the recessed areas made removing mold lines a pain, and painting all those little details a chore.

> Basically miniatures you can use for other better systems if you get bored with the game itself.

IIRC, The original original Dungeon Saga (: was two Dwarf King's Hold games, using miniature sprues Mantic already made for their other miniature lines!
http://blog.childrenofthekraken.com/2011/02/more-info-about-dwarf-kings-hold-dead.html

> Can you sum up what exactly makes it unique and different from dozens dungeon crawlers on the market?

It's... Mantic? I'm guessing it's either the historical reason that it's Mantic's first-ish boardgame, or that the game is there to support *Mantic's* existing fantasy line. OTOH, I'm not seeing conversion rules in the rules PDF that suggests using other Mantic figures. 40 quests, core plus three expansions.

I already have plenty of dice-chucking dungeoncrawlers (Gloomhaven fired them), and have yet to play my retail copy of Dungeon Saga or paint my Kings of War armies. ): I think Mantic is too much in the middle. It started as a low-cost alternative to Games Workshop (especially after Warhammer Fantasy), but KS sure made the low-cost miniature market crowded. Various companies went niche (eg. CMON's Zombicide, Archon's terrain) but I'm seeing Mantic as trying to do what others have already done. If they did an inexpensive (under $.75 a model or something) bulk miniatures-only campaign, particularly of miniatures I didn't already have, I think I'd be interested.

Note that this Kickstarter's miniatures has them on a round base, and they're intended to be available in the box in one piece. Kings of War uses square bases. Sure, there will be someone argueing you can still use them on multi-bases regiments and so on, but I have cut enough round bases from such miniatures to know it will be a chore and often not worth the work on Mantic Games average miniature line.

Why the change ? Certainly because it appeals more visually to the boardgame community (for some reason, square bases are seen as a "thing of the past"). Because rule wise, it actually doesn't make a difference, since the rules are based on the squares of the tiles. But that tells me the designers here didn't think of the opportunity to use them for their other main fantasy game. Or maybe they did and they specifically didn't want players to use dirt cheap miniatures from their boardgame while they will give the KoW version (or it already exists, for abyssal dwarves and goblins) later for higher price.

Otherwise, they said in the Kickstarter that almost everything is ready to go, so that's why they're expecting on releasing it end of 2023. Which is exactly why I despise using Kickstarter in this situation and let me feel like it's a cash grab to the detriment of the players. And sure, others use Kickstarter exactly the same, including big corporations like Hasbro for their new Heroquest - doesn't make Mantic Games the worst, just the same.

Anyway, enough negativity from me about it. Back to the Hype !

Core rules actually don't change that much from the original and is really focus on being Mantic Games equivalent of Hasbro Heroquest, but that's not the point of this KS. The real change will come from the scenarios, that's where the fun and balance will have to be. Though since it's Mantic Games equivalent of Hasbro Heroquest, the balance won't really have to be the focus here...its purpose is to be something you'll play with your children, often as the adult as the "Dungeon master" who doesn't go too hard on their heroes so that they spend a good time together. That's why the original was still loved by most of its players : when used in this way, rules really don't matter that much.

TBH this project isn't really targeted towards players who already have the first one's materials / existing miniatures. Like all Kickstarter offering a bundle for a limited time, it's for people who missed the previous Kickstarter / who can't resist the Fear Of Missing Out (FOMO)'s siren song, even though they actually do not need it. That's why the advertisement in this project focus on how good a deal this one is and how much money you'll save in comparison to the prices that may be used in retail...(another scummy, yet understandable marketing move)

Sarouan wrote:
Note that this Kickstarter's miniatures has them on a round base, and they're intended to be available in the box in one piece. Kings of War uses square bases. Sure, there will be someone argueing you can still use them on multi-bases regiments and so on, but I have cut enough round bases from such miniatures to know it will be a chore and often not worth the work on Mantic Games average miniature line.

Why the change ? Certainly because it appeals more visually to the boardgame community (for some reason, square bases are seen as a "thing of the past"). Because rule wise, it actually doesn't make a difference, since the rules are based on the squares of the tiles. But that tells me the designers here didn't think of the opportunity to use them for their other main fantasy game. Or maybe they did and they specifically didn't want players to use dirt cheap miniatures from their boardgame while they will give the KoW version (or it already exists, for abyssal dwarves and goblins) later for higher price.

Otherwise, they said in the Kickstarter that almost everything is ready to go, so that's why they're expecting on releasing it end of 2023. Which is exactly why I despise using Kickstarter in this situation and let me feel like it's a cash grab to the detriment of the players. And sure, others use Kickstarter exactly the same, including big corporations like Hasbro for their new Heroquest - doesn't make Mantic Games the worst, just the same.

Anyway, enough negativity from me about it. Back to the Hype !

Core rules actually don't change that much from the original and is really focus on being Mantic Games equivalent of Hasbro Heroquest, but that's not the point of this KS. The real change will come from the scenarios, that's where the fun and balance will have to be. Though since it's Mantic Games equivalent of Hasbro Heroquest, the balance won't really have to be the focus here...its purpose is to be something you'll play with your children, often as the adult as the "Dungeon master" who doesn't go too hard on their heroes so that they spend a good time together. That's why the original was still loved by most of its players : when used in this way, rules really don't matter that much.

Yeah, the round base thing is wierd. Especially if you read the preview of the rules which has models on squares, and the facing of the models and the squares seem to matter.
If they were all on square bases, and matched the sizes they used with KoW, I'd probably buy this. As it is, the thought of carving pvc models with tiny feet off round bases to try and rebase them has me saying no to this KS.

the square bases from DS do not fit the KoW bases either and the models were glued on those
so still needed to cut them off if wanted to do single bases in KoW

general speaking, casted round bases are non-issue
for single bases you just glue them on the plastic and cut the overlap and for multi-basing you just glue them on the base

casted round bases are the standard in historical gaming and no one goes and complains that they need to cut them off for multibasing (and they are round simply because making a one piece model with squares does not really work)

but I guess if casted round bases make them impossible to use for R&F gaming, I need to write a letter to the Perrys and Victrix that their models are now for board games only

PS: regarding using the DS boxes as cheap model supply, just don't
if you want cheap Goblins, Abyssal Dwarfs or Undead, go for the Ambush Boxes, they are way cheaper and come with more models

the DSO Box will be 50-60€ retail, an Ambush Box is 35-40€ retail with 40 Goblins instead of 18