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Void__Dragon wrote:So you ignore the greater amount of fluff that portrays the Marines as superior.

Superior to the Sisters of Battle? Well, if you have GW fluff on that is this specific, I would be genuinely interested in seeing it, given that it would contradict the other description. I always saw the superiority to refer more to the bulk of humanity, though. Let's keep in mind that genetic enhancements are advantages, not the be-all and end-all when it comes to combat capabilities (unless we assume melee combat where physical properties would play a much larger role, I suppose).

Void__Dragon wrote:Those auto senses are still affixed to an inferior biological foundation. How fast the auto senses perceive the Marine means nothing if the perceptions and reaction-time of the Sister does not match them. The Marine's, on the other hand? They can. The auto senses do not replace their natural senses, only further enhance them.

We need to consider how auto-senses would work. If they outline targets that the Marine would have seen with his natural eyes anyways, this arguably grants them a smaller benefit than the Sisters, whose reaction-time would be boosted by it being a lot easier to notice a highlighted opponent it may have otherwise taken them another heartbeat more to spot.

Void__Dragon wrote:It's reaction-time. Does it apply on the tabletop to shooting? No not really. But it sure as gak would in an actual firefight.

In an actual firefight, you'd have people react with different speeds rather than all at once - influenced by situational modifiers. If this were some sort of duel with people drawing bolt revolvers, I'd agree, but not under battlefield conditions where such important yet miniscule advantages tend to be drowned under a combination of coincidence and both commanders' chosen tactics. In 40k, combat engagements would rarely be decided by who fires the first shot.

Thanks for posting the stat description, though - seems I remembered this incorrectly.

Void__Dragon wrote:And exactly how often are these Acts of Faith put to use in the fluff by the way? I'm genuinely curious to know.

They are referenced in just about every description of the Sisters of Battle, given that they form a major component of what makes them special. Or do you mean individual events? Those would be be a lot trickier to find, given that there aren't many short stories of the Sisters to be found when limited to GW resources. One instance that springs to mind might be Sister Anastasia Rosetta shaking off the Zombie Plague in her Inquisitor background.

Or, from the 5E Minidex:
"As Tyranids pour through, Praxedes confronts a Hive Tyrant. During the fighting, the Canoness is dealt a mortal wound, but even as her blood ebbs away, she summons the strength to land a final blow, caving in the beast's skull with a thunderous strike from her power mace. With the Tyrant's destruction, the swarm loses all direction."

It's easier once one delves away from studio fluff and into the realm of licensed fiction. James Swallow's SoB novels have their protagonist employ Acts of Faith on occasion, and whilst his books clash with GW fluff on some other details, his descriptions are pretty close to how I personally imagine them to work.

Void__Dragon wrote:Acts of Faith being the result of essentially Charles Atlas Superpowers.

"For millennia, the Sisters have practiced their unique method of war, combining combat doctrine and prayer which enables them to accomplish feats upon the battlefield that appear miraculous to the unschooled." "
- 3E C:WH

This, compared with the clarification that AoF are not psychic, leads me to believe that they are indeed "just" the product of sheer willpower (channeled via religious zeal) in combination with highly trained bodies. Which only makes it even more badass to me. They are regarded as "miracles" because the "unschooled" do not know how a normal human could pull it off.
It's a bit like the Indian Grenadier's story I referenced earlier, just that it occurs more often (both due to the high degree of training from childhood on as well as the religious indoctrination and the resulting confidence).

I have a feeling this isn't going anywhere, though, and by now some posters have expressed a desire to move on to other topics. Truce?

Amaya wrote:At least Lyanata has been exposed as having some very funny ideas and that s/he manipulates fluff to server xir own ends.

It would be more accurate to say that you were exposed as being a liar. And a coward, given that you did not dare to react to me calling you out on your claims. Twice.

"Man up."

Oh, no someone on the internets called me a coward, whatever will I do?

Personally, I'd only wish you would stop to claim things about me that are not true or you at least refuse to support with actual evidence. I'm pretty sure this forum has a code of conduct dealing with such things, but I won't stoop so low as to involve a mod in this. It's just a behaviour I find somewhat unfair and disrespectful.

Lets do a recap:
Women in 40k fanfiction? check
Female SM? check
female phykers? check
female guard? check
Chaos chicks? check
more women in fanfiction? check
Sisters of battle (style, rules, armor & ETC.)? check
repeat from top of list? very soon

Edit:
petty feuds? check

34 Pages In... not sure how much longer this can/should go on.

It seems to be getting a bit... cranky in here.

RULE #1 and all that, OK everyone?

This thread is "Officially On Notice" - it might not have much time left to live...

Ok, just to add one that occurs to me before the topic is locked forever - a (fairly) sane reason that all Marines are male.

Both Marines and their armour were originally intended for a degree of mass production. As a bit of the previous debate mentioned, if you have one marine who's 8'6" and another who's 7'2", you'll need a lot more sizes of armour.

So part of the point of the Marine genetic engineering is to "tailor the man to fit the clothes". And as previously mentioned, women need differently shaped armour for their skeletal structure, not to mention that you're going to need differently located catheter hookups etc.

Not that genetic engineering couldn't get around this, but why add a layer of complication to something you only intend to use for the duration of the Great Crusade and then retire?

It was mentioned earlier that no one really has a problem with the Space Marines being male-only, as GW fluff supports that the Sisters of Battle (female-only) are their equal. Of course, we'd *like* to see the Sisters given equal measure in the fluff as a viable faction, as well as receive the same level of care and updates (if not the volume... not really needed for SoB) that the SM do.

We'd also like to see the Sisters not used as cannon-fodder, especially if the only function of that is to make SM look better. How about some role reversal for a change, with troops of Chapter X getting a mudhole stomped in it until Canoness Beatcha rolls in with a Seraphim squad, some Repentia, a couple Immolators and an Order of Battle-Sisters and saves the day?

There was the defense of San Leon in the fifth edition "codex", where a large number of chaos marines attempted to invade the Sororitas "homeworld" (insofar as Sororitas can have such; their historical point of origin is more accurate) and were repulsed with contemptuous ease.

Yeah, such stories do exist, of course, and while I know it's a pipe-dream to see SoB-as-the-focus stories in the same volume (or even nearly so) as SM, I do think that they could do better by the SoB in the stories that *are* presented in the Codices and WD and such.

I don't think any of us would disagree with that, Psienesis.

Anyway, I'm working on that book. ¬¬ Too bad the Black Library's submissions policy changed though.

I don't have the patience to be honest..to go through all the pages..but if you're looking for SoB stories..there was a short story I recall..as having two main characters a Space Marine and a Celestian (the ones with the jump packs right? lol)

well the Space Marine succumbed to a Great Unclean one and became a champion of Nurgle while the Celestian escaped and it became her mission to redeem and cleanse the space marine which she succeeded in doing...at the end I BELIEVE he repented after realising what he became and she ended his existence!...=strong female character

=strong female character

I thought Melissia said she was looking for examples of "Strong Character, Female" rather than "Strong Female Character" But I may have that backwards.

 Zakiriel wrote:

=strong female character

I thought Melissia said she was looking for examples of "Strong Character, Female" rather than "Strong Female Character" But I may have that backwards.

Alright you have me at a loss...What's the difference between the two?

Strong character, female is a female character with depth, she is rounded and complex.

Strong female character is a strong character (In that she can beat gak up) and happens to be female.

That is what I assume Zakiriel meant, and those traits are not necessarily separate from one another, nor are they necessarily required to be combined.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:
There was the defense of San Leon in the fifth edition "codex", where a large number of chaos marines attempted to invade the Sororitas "homeworld" (insofar as Sororitas can have such; their historical point of origin is more accurate) and were repulsed with contemptuous ease.

Show where the number of Chaos Marines was stated.

I want female cardians so much. I want a female senior officer to represent myself especially. Shame the only person doing those sprews wants £60 a pop. Plus the bums are way too exaggerated they look ridiculous.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Strong character, female is a female character with depth, she is rounded and complex.

Strong female character is a strong character (In that she can beat gak up) and happens to be female.

That is what I assume Zakiriel meant, and those traits are not necessarily separate from one another, nor are they necessarily required to be combined.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:
There was the defense of San Leon in the fifth edition "codex", where a large number of chaos marines attempted to invade the Sororitas "homeworld" (insofar as Sororitas can have such; their historical point of origin is more accurate) and were repulsed with contemptuous ease.

Show where the number of Chaos Marines was stated.

It's the other way around.

Strong character, female, is a character who is pretty badass, and just happens to be female. That's what the comma is there for, it's to denote that the "female" part is practically an after-thought.

As opposed to "I'm going to make this a character a female, and she will be badass."

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 Ratliker wrote:


One last thing: feminism doesn't exist in 40k, and would probably be considered heresy.

I'm going to ignore the rest of your sexist asterisks and address the only relevant point of your post;

At least two of the High Lords of Terra are female. A Canoness is of equal rank with a Cardinal. There are multiple examples of female planetary governors and Tech Archmagi in the lore. So yes, feminism does exist in 40k, because without feminism you do not get women in positions of power.

Yeah, ignoring logical arguments and going straight to juicy "sexism" is your thing i see.
Anyway, the very presence of female governors, ship captains, officers and inquisitors shows there is really no misogyny in 40k - case closed.

What logical arguments? I was ignoring the crap you wrote about how women were inferior.

You'll notice that the part I replied to wasn't actually you being sexist, just you stating that feminism didn't exist in 40k, which (I suppose) might be a reasonable assumption if you've just read the first few posts of this thread.

You seem to have done a complete 180. The post I quoted had you saying there was no such thing as feminism, while now you're saying there's no such thing as misogyny, which is the opposite of feminism.

How is this me going straight to the "juicy" sexism, when it was the sexism that I was ignoring?

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Strong character, female is a female character with depth, she is rounded and complex.

Strong female character is a strong character (In that she can beat gak up) and happens to be female.

Void dragon has the gist of it here. A strong character who happens to be female, is one who is an interesting, deep, and well rounded character-- someone you want to read about. A strong female character, however, is a character who is able to beat the gak out of everyone she runs in to-- a badass character.

The two are not mutually exclusive, but there are a number of the latter who do not qualify for the former because of the misunderstanding of what was being asked for.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Show where the number of Chaos Marines was stated.

No. GW is rarely that specific, and it certainly wasn't the case here. But it was not described as a minor raid.

THERE ARE TWO UNDERSCORES IN MY USERNAME.

WhatI believe Melissia is referring to the following event;

799.M41
The San Leor Massacre
A Red Corsairs strike force invades San Leor, the original homeworld of the Daughters of the Emperor. The Chaos Space Marines are unprepared for the fury of the Adepta Sororitas reprisal, as they come under assault from nine separate Orders Militant and are utterly annihilated by the combined counter-attack.

Strike Force implies at least company strength.

I've read the fluff.

How does strike force imply at least company strength now?

This thread has 1011 posts about ?

Because anything less and it would be a raid. Strike Force implies Strike Cruisers.

Why are you so adamant it has to be less than that?

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Because anything less and it would be a raid. Strike Force implies Strike Cruisers.

Why are you so adamant it has to be less than that?

Oh? You have read fluff dictating the difference in numbers between a "raid" and a "strike force" in 40k?

I don't have an opinion on how many Marines there were, because I actually realise there isn't any information to make an accurate assumption.

9 seperate orders is loads too right?

They might have outnumbered the corsairs a hundred to one!

Those would have been Orders Minoris, which themselves only number about 50 to 300 Sisters under most circumstances.

Void__Dragon, for someone with 'no opinion' you sure are pretty vocal about what is or isn't true...

Some of them are described as being as small as a dozen sisters.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Those would have been Orders Minoris, which themselves only number about 50 to 300 Sisters under most circumstances.

Void__Dragon, for someone with 'no opinion' you sure are pretty vocal about what is or isn't true...

Point out where I said that there definitely were not, say, a company of Marines there.

There could have been up to like 50,000, considering the size of the Red Corsairs warband. Or as little as maybe five Marines.

I make no claims, only point out the lack of basis for claims.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Void__Dragon, for someone with 'no opinion' you sure are pretty vocal about what is or isn't true...

He's pointing out that your argument sucks.

strike force
noun
strike forces, plural

A military force equipped and organized for sudden attack

raid
/rād/
Noun
A rapid surprise attack on an enemy by troops, aircraft, or other armed forces in warfare.
Verb
Conduct a raid on: "officers raided thirty homes".
Synonyms
incursion - foray - inroad - attack - invasion

There is an explicit, concrete numerical value that you need to have a "company". There is no concrete numerical value of troops you need to have a "strike force" or a "raid". A "strike force" is not a military unit. It's a phrase.