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Anyone already played against the new Chaos Knights? I had a game against them recently and I put an ureasonable amount of points into trying to kill the new Abominant and still couldn't bring it down (I rolled badly though).

I can't be pissed anymore about anything in this edition. My pissed-off tank is at zero.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I can't be pissed anymore about anything in this edition. My pissed-off tank is at zero.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TXK03FHVsHk

Well, with the released stat line of the new "possessed" we are looking at S5T5, 3W, 5 Attacks base, S:U, AP2 D1. I can see them bringing the cost from 20 up to 30ish, possibly 40, and making the weapons S:U+D3 and flat 2 damage. Then the only thing left to do is wonder if they will retain the 5-20 model unit size?

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Well, with the released stat line of the new "possessed" we are looking at S5T5, 3W, 5 Attacks base, S:U, AP2 D1. I can see them bringing the cost from 20 up to 30ish, possibly 40, and making the weapons S:U+D3 and flat 2 damage. Then the only thing left to do is wonder if they will retain the 5-20 model unit size?

It'll be 5-10. GW stopped letting CSM take 20 man squads for stuff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also their attacks are D2, not D1

A friend of mine and I got into a rather intense debate. I think Custodes have let the game pass them by, he thinks they are still leagues above the rest. At the very least give Custodes AoC.

 cuda1179 wrote:
A friend of mine and I got into a rather intense debate. I think Custodes have let the game pass them by, he thinks they are still leagues above the rest. At the very least give Custodes AoC.

Leagues above the rest is a stretch. We are not weak as guard or some space marine chapters are weak.

I've said this before and I won't get tired of saying it, the problem is how we play. Custodes don't feel terribly elite anymore. GW should have upped our cost and given all our Infantry +1W and +1A this way there would be a more discernable difference between us and marines.
The second issue is that the dataslate messed up the internal balance of a faction with a very small pool of datasheets. There is absolutely no reason to bring Wardens and you won't see many terminators except for the lone Allarus popping up here and there as an action monkey.

We are still very playable with decent results, but that does not mean the faction is enjoyable to play. And yes, I know other factions have it worse than us like the poor Guard, but that doesn't render any criticism of GWs heavy handed approach towards us invalid.

When they killed Bikes they killed most of the fun about Custodes. Then they killed Core mechanics for Dreads, and most of the Custodes top lists went away.

My favorite part about 9th was when GW looked at Custodes, and decided what it needed was a Stance/Phase system, and a HQ model that is actually bad at it's job and never worth the investment in competitive play.

I'd love to hear the argument that pitch made. I've got an idea for a new Custodes unit! It's a guy with a really big sword, who can hit things, REALLY hard. But he's an HQ, so you can never take more than 3 of him, and really only 2 because who would ever not take Trajann?

How does he do against T8 stuff? Oh he sucks. How does he do against high model counts with multi-wound profiles? He sucks. How does he do against hordes of weak chaff? He sucks. So he's basically a regular Shield Captain with a special sword? Yeah but we can put him in a special "exclusive" box for 6 months, and charge way more than he's worth.

DEAL.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
When they killed Bikes they killed most of the fun about Custodes. Then they killed Core mechanics for Dreads, and most of the Custodes top lists went away.

My favorite part about 9th was when GW looked at Custodes, and decided what it needed was a Stance/Phase system, and a HQ model that is actually bad at it's job and never worth the investment in competitive play.

I'd love to hear the argument that pitch made. I've got an idea for a new Custodes unit! It's a guy with a really big sword, who can hit things, REALLY hard. But he's an HQ, so you can never take more than 3 of him, and really only 2 because who would ever not take Trajann?

How does he do against T8 stuff? Oh he sucks. How does he do against high model counts with multi-wound profiles? He sucks. How does he do against hordes of weak chaff? He sucks. So he's basically a regular Shield Captain with a special sword? Yeah but we can put him in a special "exclusive" box for 6 months, and charge way more than he's worth.

DEAL.

To be fair the damage output of a fully kitted blade champion is nothing to be laughed at. His main problem is that he is rather slow, easy to avoid and like you said, Trajann is an auto take and the bike captain offers the mobility the blade champion lacks. Point is he is not bad but other HQ slots are just better. You I am critical of the new codex in specific aspects, but our HQs are still absolutely stellar.

I also don't think it's THAT hard to get the Champ into melee but I'm biased because Dread Host rerolls are best.

EviscerationPlague wrote:
I also don't think it's THAT hard to get the Champ into melee but I'm biased because Dread Host rerolls are best.

Again, my point is that he is in fact not bad I like to play him myself too, especially in shadowkeepers, but competitively he is outshone by Trajann and the Bike cap.

We do not lack good HQ options. Consider Valerian: good melee, perma transhuman and free re-rolls. Not a bad statline, good rules and no one ever plays him, especially competitively. Why? Because Trajann and the bike captain are way better.

The problem is internal balance and general codex design. Underlining the low model count elite status instead of extra tricks like karate would have been the way to go imo. We're still at least playable.

Good hq choices are a stiff competition. The blade champion isn’t even close

There is STILL no justifiable reason that Trajann is at his current cost. He needs to be more than a Bike Captain, like 180 min. The BC should be 100, since he's lacking mobility, and a clear purpose, and shooting. He should be a Heavy Weapons choice for Emperors sake. Or Elite, if we weren't already the most Elite Heavy force in the game.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
There is STILL no justifiable reason that Trajann is at his current cost. He needs to be more than a Bike Captain, like 180 min. The BC should be 100, since he's lacking mobility, and a clear purpose, and shooting. He should be a Heavy Weapons choice for Emperors sake. Or Elite, if we weren't already the most Elite Heavy force in the game.

Yes, and Trajann is the prime candidate to recieve a points increase in the next chapter approved. Bladechamp as heavy support makes no sense and like you said, the elite slot is way too crowded as it is. If anything Vigilators should be the ones to recieve a change there and become a fast attack slot (in custodes armies, in pure sisters armies the elite slot is fine), since they simply can not compete with the other options.

The blade champ is honestly perfectly fine as he is rules wise, the 10p increase really was not necessary though. He is definitely not overpowered or overtuned and he does is designated role quite well, while also having weaknesses like being slow and not being a force multiplier. But he has amazing damage output vs characters in Shadowkeepers and actually rather good 1wound horde clearing in Dreadhost if you give him All-Seeing Annihilator and Peerless Warrior.

If a standard 5/5 2+W/BS with a base 2+4++ (Guardian) is between 40-50 points, how do you calculate the cost of the Blade Champion? Based off it's sheer capability? Then Trajan should be 300 points, and bike captains should be 260. It's silly to think that a BC should be more than 100 points. He's barely more capable than a Base Captain, or the Terminator Captain who frankly is better at every turn. He's got shooting, which the BC just doesn't, he can teleport around the field at will, hes got 5 attacks (More possible) at S8 AP2 D2. Is he as good as the BC in hyper specific scenarios? No. But the BC is overwhelmingly worse in the majority of situations.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
If a standard 5/5 2+W/BS with a base 2+4++ (Guardian) is between 40-50 points, how do you calculate the cost of the Blade Champion? Based off it's sheer capability? Then Trajan should be 300 points, and bike captains should be 260. It's silly to think that a BC should be more than 100 points. He's barely more capable than a Base Captain, or the Terminator Captain who frankly is better at every turn. He's got shooting, which the BC just doesn't, he can teleport around the field at will, hes got 5 attacks (More possible) at S8 AP2 D2. Is he as good as the BC in hyper specific scenarios? No. But the BC is overwhelmingly worse in the majority of situations.

There is so much wrong here I don't even know where to start. Trajann should be more expensive and probably will be in the chapter approved, but 300p is just laughable. Saying the terminator cap is better at everything is also just not correct.....bunch of hyperbole, as usual.

Tiberias wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
If a standard 5/5 2+W/BS with a base 2+4++ (Guardian) is between 40-50 points, how do you calculate the cost of the Blade Champion? Based off it's sheer capability? Then Trajan should be 300 points, and bike captains should be 260. It's silly to think that a BC should be more than 100 points. He's barely more capable than a Base Captain, or the Terminator Captain who frankly is better at every turn. He's got shooting, which the BC just doesn't, he can teleport around the field at will, hes got 5 attacks (More possible) at S8 AP2 D2. Is he as good as the BC in hyper specific scenarios? No. But the BC is overwhelmingly worse in the majority of situations.

There is so much wrong here I don't even know where to start. Trajann should be more expensive and probably will be in the chapter approved, but 300p is just laughable. Saying the terminator cap is better at everything is also just not correct.....bunch of hyperbole, as usual.

If it's so easy, please demonstrate the truth. Show me what situations a BC outperforms a Terminator Captain? Or maybe lay off the personal attacks and address the topic. If a Guardian is worth 40-50 points for it's statline, I would evaluate all other custodes units off that. They tend to make sense. Bikers are almost twice the cost. Terminators the same. What baseline would you suggest for the evaluation of Custodes units on an individual basis? I'd really be interested in your opinion. But if all you want to do is call me stupid and silly, then just put me on ignore and don't bother responding.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

Tiberias wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
If a standard 5/5 2+W/BS with a base 2+4++ (Guardian) is between 40-50 points, how do you calculate the cost of the Blade Champion? Based off it's sheer capability? Then Trajan should be 300 points, and bike captains should be 260. It's silly to think that a BC should be more than 100 points. He's barely more capable than a Base Captain, or the Terminator Captain who frankly is better at every turn. He's got shooting, which the BC just doesn't, he can teleport around the field at will, hes got 5 attacks (More possible) at S8 AP2 D2. Is he as good as the BC in hyper specific scenarios? No. But the BC is overwhelmingly worse in the majority of situations.

There is so much wrong here I don't even know where to start. Trajann should be more expensive and probably will be in the chapter approved, but 300p is just laughable. Saying the terminator cap is better at everything is also just not correct.....bunch of hyperbole, as usual.

If it's so easy, please demonstrate the truth. Show me what situations a BC outperforms a Terminator Captain? Or maybe lay off the personal attacks and address the topic. If a Guardian is worth 40-50 points for it's statline, I would evaluate all other custodes units off that. They tend to make sense. Bikers are almost twice the cost. Terminators the same. What baseline would you suggest for the evaluation of Custodes units on an individual basis? I'd really be interested in your opinion. But if all you want to do is call me stupid and silly, then just put me on ignore and don't bother responding.

Oh geez...

Blade Champ Vs a Space Marine Character with 4+ invuln....does about 2 unsaved wounds for 6 damage. In Shadowkeepers with Lockwarden it's about 4 unsaved wounds at 12dmg.
Terminator Captain with Axe vs Space Marine Character with 4+ invuln...does about 2 unsaved wounds totaling 4 damage. In Shadowkeepers with Lockwarden it's again about 4 damage due to armor of contempt.
Terminator Captain with Spear vs Space Marine Character with 4+ invuln...does about 1,6 unsaved wound for 2-4 damage. In Shadowkeepers with Lockwarden it's about 2 unsaved wounds for 4 dmg.
Dread Host Terminator Captain with Admonimortis vs Space Marine Character with 4+ invuln....does about 2 unsaved wounds for 6 damage.

So a Lockwarden Blade Champ beats the Terminator Captain regardless of configuration and a Termi Captain with Admonimortis does about the same damage, but only if the Blade Champ is not Shadowkeepers.

Blade Champ vs 20 Hormagaunts.....kills 5,5 with the hurricanis profile, 4,1 with the other profiles. In Dreadhost with All-Seeing Annihilator and Peerless Warrior he kills about 9, in Dacatarai stance for +1A he kills about 11.
Terminator Captain vs 20 Hormagaunts....with Axe and Spear he kills 4. In Dreadhost with All-Seeing Annihilator and Peerless Warrior he kills about 6 with both spear and axe.

Blade Champ vs a T7 Vehicle with 3+ save....the Behemor profile does about 4 unsaved wounds for 8 damage, against a space marine dreadnaught with AoC and -1 dmg it's 3 dmg
Terminator Captain vs a T7 vehicle with 3+ save.....the axe does about 2 unsaved wounds for 4 damage, the Spear also does 2 unsaved wound for 4 damage, against a space marine dreadnought with AoC and -1 dmg it's only about 1 damage for both the spear and the axe. With Slayer of Nightmares for +1 to wound he does 2 damage with the axe against a dreadnought with -1 dmg and AoC and 6 dmg against a generic T7 vehicle with a 3+ save.

The Blade Champ wins all three times. He is better against charactes, better against clearing chaff, even better against vehicles. Even against 2 wound space marines the Blade Champ does better now because of AoC. So yeah, your claim that the terminator cap is better in every step is complete bogus even when you factor in that the blade champ has no shooting ability.

Even by your metric pushing Trajann to 300p is laughable. And lastly: I mostly ignore your posts, but sometimes the nonsense is just too unbearable not to respond.

Blade champ is gonna do more damage since thats all he does. His buff (+2 to charge if he's already in combat) has very few applications where it helps.

Termy captain is much more utilitarian, being able to shoot, buff units, deep strike, and more relic options.

Its all gonna come down to what your army needs.

Do you need a beatstick to hold the midfield or countercharge? Blade champ is your man.

Do you need someone who can buff units, and drop into the backfield? Termy captain.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Blade champ is gonna do more damage since thats all he does. His buff (+2 to charge if he's already in combat) has very few applications where it helps.

Termy captain is much more utilitarian, being able to shoot, buff units, deep strike, and more relic options.

Its all gonna come down to what your army needs.

Do you need a beatstick to hold the midfield or countercharge? Blade champ is your man.

Do you need someone who can buff units, and drop into the backfield? Termy captain.

All true, I just contested the assumption that the terminator captain is "better at every turn". I would even argue that he is way worse now generally since he has lost a lot of utility due to the lack of obsec after the dataslate. So the Praetorian Plate/Impregnable Mind combo, that saw at least some play early on, is not really viable anymore. The best use for him is probably in Dreadhost with the Admonimortis relic, providing flat dmg3 in melee.

Custodes are an army that relies a fair bit on warlord traits and relics, making the new cp rules pretty harsh to custodes

Yeah, the new Nocturn stuff is a real kick below the belt. I honestly wonder why GW is forcing 40k to be AoS. They don't have to be the same. The two mix like acid and water. Just stop.

Does Nocturn become standard play now, or can you just pre-game state you're playing old style, with full starting? Is Nocturn Tournament only is what I mean.

I think GW has way way overdone strats and welcome them being reined in. If I had my way, I’d nuke theee quarters of strats in the game entirely. Or copy the new reaction system from HH

The change is good, Just hurts custodes.

stratigo wrote:
I think GW has way way overdone strats and welcome them being reined in. If I had my way, I’d nuke theee quarters of strats in the game entirely. Or copy the new reaction system from HH

The change is good, Just hurts custodes.

Just copy the entire heresy system to 40k, it's way better anyway. As for the CP change, I'm curious if you are going to have to pay for Trajann's traits as well....because it would suck either way: if you have to pay for his two traits it hurts and if you don't have to pay it skews internal balance even further.

Trajanns trait isn't his most useful thing, it's his Moment Shackle. His abilities are bonkers. Plus he can wreck most things in the game without even trying hard. I would not be surprised to see them make is moment shackle something you have to pay for.

Moment shackle used to be pretty impressive, but has since been overshadowed by alot of other abilities (that are useable multiple times instead of just once). New abbadon puts trajann to shame for instance.

On another note, we do gain improved secondaries in the new GT packet. Both Auric mortalis and our (never used) grind are being buffed a bit. Stand vigil isnt being buffed, but with stranglehold being removed it is a more likely pick.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Moment shackle used to be pretty impressive, but has since been overshadowed by alot of other abilities (that are useable multiple times instead of just once). New abbadon puts trajann to shame for instance.

On another note, we do gain improved secondaries in the new GT packet. Both Auric mortalis and our (never used) grind are being buffed a bit. Stand vigil isnt being buffed, but with stranglehold being removed it is a more likely pick.

Do we already have confirmation on whether special characters have to pay CP for their warlord traits? And if they do, does Trajann have to pay 2cp for his two traits? Is one of them free?

We shouldn't compare Trajann to Abbafail. Abby is 300 points, and is basically The Chaotic version of Bobby G. He should be a LoW, but GW doesn't want to piss off their Chaos players. Also, even by the Fluff, I doubt very much if Trajann would be a match for the scion of all four Chaos Gods. Trajann is good at what he does for 160 points. Hilariously, he kept his Cost. Just be happy that he's what he is, and doesn't cost more.

It's funny, who wins on paper now, Abby or Morty? I think morty still takes it, but I wonder if it's possible for Abby to kill him?

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
We shouldn't compare Trajann to Abbafail. Abby is 300 points, and is basically The Chaotic version of Bobby G. He should be a LoW, but GW doesn't want to piss off their Chaos players.

They already are. Have you seen the scans?

No, I saw a video on Auspex tactics, but I didn't hear him say he was now a LoW.