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Made in gb
Norn Queen






IanVanCheese wrote:
This raises an interesting point. What was the last new unit GW put out that it gave a 2+ save to? Like without relics or anything, just a straight 2+.

Primaris don't have any afaik. No sisters, No GSC (obviously lol, they made of paper). Was it the Lord of Contagion?
Do the Custodes count?
   
Made in us
Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought





 Kanluwen wrote:
Warhammer Community wrote:Before we go any further, it’s worth pointing out that the Deathwatch are set to gain access to ALL of the new units in the awesome Indomitus set.** So, if you’re looking to reinforce your consummate all-rounders with a core of deadly Primaris melee specialists, such as Bladeguard Veterans and Assault Intercessors, you’ll soon be good to go!

In any case, here are a few units around which you’ll be able to build a powerful Deathwatch strike force in the new edition.


Did we know that before?
Deathwatch Article up.


yes, this was known, it was mentioned in the stream first day.

This pretty much means that Deathwatch is radically changing. They have no Lts, but now they will. They have no Ancients, but now they will. Interestingly, these snap fit models won't take a DW shoulder pad....kinda like the Phobos boys from the start collecting set. Something is in the air for Deathwatch, and I'm not sure I'm going to like it.
   
Made in au
Hissing Hybrid Metamorph






IanVanCheese wrote:
This raises an interesting point. What was the last new unit GW put out that it gave a 2+ save to? Like without relics or anything, just a straight 2+.

Primaris don't have any afaik. No sisters, No GSC (obviously lol, they made of paper). Was it the Lord of Contagion?


All of the Custodes. Who can all have stormshields too. An army of 2++ would be pretty hilarious.
   
Made in au
Liche Priest Hierophant







 H.B.M.C. wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
So it's fine primaris marines get 2++? After all you get that with box set models
Only with a Crusade list, not with their base rules.

The Captain with Relic Shield can take Artificer Armour as a Special-issue Wargear option to get a 1+ save.

EDIT: And to be clear, I'm not talking about the Crusade Relic armour, but actual Artificer Armour

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/06 15:47:06


 
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
So it's fine primaris marines get 2++? After all you get that with box set models
Only with a Crusade list, not with their base rules.

The Captain with Relic Shield can take Artificer Armour as a Special-issue Wargear option to get a 1+ save.

EDIT: And to be clear, I'm not talking about the Crusade Relic armour, but actual Artificer Armour
So it's not even a hypothetical, so those people claiming it doesn't matter because it can't happen are proven wrong.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 bullyboy wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
Warhammer Community wrote:Before we go any further, it’s worth pointing out that the Deathwatch are set to gain access to ALL of the new units in the awesome Indomitus set.** So, if you’re looking to reinforce your consummate all-rounders with a core of deadly Primaris melee specialists, such as Bladeguard Veterans and Assault Intercessors, you’ll soon be good to go!

In any case, here are a few units around which you’ll be able to build a powerful Deathwatch strike force in the new edition.


Did we know that before?
Deathwatch Article up.


yes, this was known, it was mentioned in the stream first day.

This pretty much means that Deathwatch is radically changing. They have no Lts, but now they will. They have no Ancients, but now they will. Interestingly, these snap fit models won't take a DW shoulder pad....kinda like the Phobos boys from the start collecting set. Something is in the air for Deathwatch, and I'm not sure I'm going to like it.

If that's the case they're probably going to get a reworked passive bonus, which is absolutely a BOON.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in ro
Deranged Necron Destroyer




 Tiberius501 wrote:
IanVanCheese wrote:
This raises an interesting point. What was the last new unit GW put out that it gave a 2+ save to? Like without relics or anything, just a straight 2+.

Primaris don't have any afaik. No sisters, No GSC (obviously lol, they made of paper). Was it the Lord of Contagion?


All of the Custodes. Who can all have stormshields too. An army of 2++ would be pretty hilarious.


Oh yeah, forgot about those. But I still think there's a general trend away from 2+ saves in most armies.
   
Made in us
Inspiring SDF-1 Bridge Officer





Mississippi

What's the issue with a 1+ save? A natural 1 still fails and AP -4 turns it into a 5+, correct?

It never ends well 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Spoiler:
 bullyboy wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
Warhammer Community wrote:Before we go any further, it’s worth pointing out that the Deathwatch are set to gain access to ALL of the new units in the awesome Indomitus set.** So, if you’re looking to reinforce your consummate all-rounders with a core of deadly Primaris melee specialists, such as Bladeguard Veterans and Assault Intercessors, you’ll soon be good to go!

In any case, here are a few units around which you’ll be able to build a powerful Deathwatch strike force in the new edition.


Did we know that before?
Deathwatch Article up.


yes, this was known, it was mentioned in the stream first day.

This pretty much means that Deathwatch is radically changing. They have no Lts, but now they will. They have no Ancients, but now they will. Interestingly, these snap fit models won't take a DW shoulder pad....kinda like the Phobos boys from the start collecting set. Something is in the air for Deathwatch, and I'm not sure I'm going to like it.

If that's the case they're probably going to get a reworked passive bonus, which is absolutely a BOON.

The way GW has been balancing things recently I wouldn't be shocked if its a Flat Additional -1AP against faction "Xenos"
Because you know just more AP in the game is great for balance.
   
Made in fi
Dakka Veteran





 H.B.M.C. wrote:
jullevi wrote:
New objectives look nice but the bases look 50mm instead of 40mm. I would be happy to be wrong.
They literally just made objectives 40mm in size. Why would they then go and release a set of new objectives on 50mm bases?



Lack of communication between different departments? As I said, those don't look like current 40mm bases at all. Sides of the bases aren't messed up and ratio between height and width looks off.

I wish I had bought another set of Sector Imperialis objectives before they went OOP.




That place is the harsh dark future far left with only war left. 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Ice_can wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Spoiler:
 bullyboy wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
Warhammer Community wrote:Before we go any further, it’s worth pointing out that the Deathwatch are set to gain access to ALL of the new units in the awesome Indomitus set.** So, if you’re looking to reinforce your consummate all-rounders with a core of deadly Primaris melee specialists, such as Bladeguard Veterans and Assault Intercessors, you’ll soon be good to go!

In any case, here are a few units around which you’ll be able to build a powerful Deathwatch strike force in the new edition.


Did we know that before?
Deathwatch Article up.


yes, this was known, it was mentioned in the stream first day.

This pretty much means that Deathwatch is radically changing. They have no Lts, but now they will. They have no Ancients, but now they will. Interestingly, these snap fit models won't take a DW shoulder pad....kinda like the Phobos boys from the start collecting set. Something is in the air for Deathwatch, and I'm not sure I'm going to like it.

If that's the case they're probably going to get a reworked passive bonus, which is absolutely a BOON.

The way GW has been balancing things recently I wouldn't be shocked if its a Flat Additional -1AP against faction "Xenos"
Because you know just more AP in the game is great for balance.

Oh don't get me I expect any new bonus to be absolutely stupid.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 BaconCatBug wrote:
IanVanCheese wrote:
This raises an interesting point. What was the last new unit GW put out that it gave a 2+ save to? Like without relics or anything, just a straight 2+.

Primaris don't have any afaik. No sisters, No GSC (obviously lol, they made of paper). Was it the Lord of Contagion?
Do the Custodes count?


Sanguinary Guard have a native 2+ armor save.
   
Made in de
Dakka Veteran




 Stormonu wrote:
What's the issue with a 1+ save? A natural 1 still fails and AP -4 turns it into a 5+, correct?


you've gotta be trolling... check the last 30 pages, twas explained 10 times now.


I've got a question thought... came up in the ork tactics thread


so flyers can fly of the table and come back as stratigic reserves right?
strategic reserves states that models must be setup wholly within 6" on any battlefield edge (not in the enemy deployment zone)

Since most flyers (only the small SM one comes to mind as an exeption) are bigger than 6"
does that mean they cannot be set up anywhere???
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Biloxi, MS USA

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Just Characters. so it does indeed look like you could get a 1+ Sv Knight. You'd have to use a stratagem to make the Knight a character, however, as the Crusade rules disable that part of the Knight Lance and Traitoris Lance abilities.


All the "Characters" lists specifically prohibit Monsters and Vehicles from accessing them.

You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie
The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was 
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




 Stormonu wrote:
What's the issue with a 1+ save? A natural 1 still fails and AP -4 turns it into a 5+, correct?


No. It changes the dice roll not the save. This isn’t directed at you, but if people could just read through posts before asking this question *again* it would have just been left a few pages ago.

Regarding the Deathwatch, you can’t physically add the Deathwatch pads to the Indomitus models. When was the last time GW allowed you to include a unit in your army, that actually required you to physically cut up a model to make it match every other unit in said army?
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






RedNoak wrote:
Since most flyers (only the small SM one comes to mind as an exeption) are bigger than 6"
does that mean they cannot be set up anywhere???


In 9th a based model is wholly within 6" if all of its base is wholly within 6". All other parts don't matter anymore.

7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
Made in gb
Junior Officer with Laspistol




Manchester, UK

RedNoak wrote:
you've gotta be trolling... check the last 30 pages, twas explained 10 times now.


Tbh, trying to look through the news thread is a real pain.

The Tvashtan 422nd "Fire Leopards" - Updated 19/03/11

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." - Hanlon's Razor 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




If people think the blast rule is ambiguous then there is really no hope that GW will ever be able to write a rule that the community can't pick a hole in.

As it is currently written, it is about as clear as it gets. Regardless of how many dice you get to roll to determine how many hit rolls you make, if the result is less than 3 against a unit of 6-10 models you make 3. Doesn't matter if it is 1D3, 2D3 or 20D3. You make 3 attacks if you roll less than that. End of. It might not be what they intended, but that is what the rule currently says. Any ambiguity is player induced.
   
Made in us
Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought





 Jidmah wrote:
RedNoak wrote:
Since most flyers (only the small SM one comes to mind as an exeption) are bigger than 6"
does that mean they cannot be set up anywhere???


In 9th a based model is wholly within 6" if all of its base is wholly within 6". All other parts don't matter anymore.


Pretty sure it's stated that flyers ignore this part and come on anywhere on the table
   
Made in au
Hissing Hybrid Metamorph






 Stormonu wrote:
What's the issue with a 1+ save? A natural 1 still fails and AP -4 turns it into a 5+, correct?


I’ll explain a short version, cos I know it can be a pain reading through this forum.

Basically, cos a modifier only changes the result of the dice roll, and only an unmodified roll of a 1 fails, a modified roll of a 1 succeeds, and you can’t go below 1.
So even -100AP will reduce the save to a modified roll of a 1, which succeeds.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/06 16:21:52


 
   
Made in us
Terrifying Doombull




 Stormonu wrote:
What's the issue with a 1+ save? A natural 1 still fails and AP -4 turns it into a 5+, correct?

No. I'm not sure what edition of 40K people were playing last, but AP doesn't modify the model's save- it modifies the roll.
That how it works in 9th, that's how it worked in 8th and that's even how it worked in 8th edition fantasy. Its been entirely consistent since 40k switch backed to save modifiers: you compare the modified roll to the model's save characteristic, and it fails if the result of the roll is less than the model's save.

The _only_ difference is 9th specifies that only unmodified 1s automatically fail, whereas with 8th and fantasy, any 1 failed, even if there were modifiers.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/06 16:24:03


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






Voss wrote:
 Stormonu wrote:
What's the issue with a 1+ save? A natural 1 still fails and AP -4 turns it into a 5+, correct?

No. I'm not sure what edition of 40K people were playing last, but AP doesn't modify the model's save- it modifies the roll.
That how it works in 9th, that's how it worked in 8th and that's even how it worked in 8th edition fantasy. Its been entirely consistent since 40k switch backed to save modifiers: you compare the modified roll to the model's save characteristic, and it fails if the result of the roll is less than the model's save.

The _only_ difference is 9th specifies that only unmodified 1s automatically fail, whereas with 8th and fantasy, any 1 failed, even if there were modifiers.
Actually, in 8th modified 1's passed, as shown by the WS 1+ Succubus FAQ
   
Made in gb
Purposeful Hammerhead Pilot





Realistically though it's a null issue isnt it, because noone will actually play it like that.
   
Made in fr
Imperial Agent Provocateur





Necronmaniac05 wrote:
If people think the blast rule is ambiguous then there is really no hope that GW will ever be able to write a rule that the community can't pick a hole in.

As it is currently written, it is about as clear as it gets. Regardless of how many dice you get to roll to determine how many hit rolls you make, if the result is less than 3 against a unit of 6-10 models you make 3. Doesn't matter if it is 1D3, 2D3 or 20D3. You make 3 attacks if you roll less than that. End of. It might not be what they intended, but that is what the rule currently says. Any ambiguity is player induced.



I agree the rule is pretty straightforward, what worries me is that the misinterpretation comes from some of the playtesters. This might mean that their role was less of a continuous feedback to and from GW and more of GW going "Hey, we are going to release this, check it out, adapt your upcoming tournaments. Any huge mistakes? No? Ok then, to the printer it goes "
   
Made in gb
Resentful Grot With a Plan





endlesswaltz123 wrote:

I think it is 3x per roll. That is the direct quote from the rules on the site.

Doesn't each roll count as a separate attack also, meaning a 3D6 blast weapon makes 3x separate attacks, 1x for each roll?

.

No, a 3D6 blast weapon makes x attacks, where x = 3D6.

What is the quote from the site you refer to?
   
Made in gb
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler




RedNoak wrote:
so flyers can fly of the table and come back as stratigic reserves right?
strategic reserves states that models must be setup wholly within 6" on any battlefield edge (not in the enemy deployment zone)

Since most flyers (only the small SM one comes to mind as an exeption) are bigger than 6"
does that mean they cannot be set up anywhere???

Flyers get different rules for coming on from strategic reserves, they get proper deepstrike, e.g. anywhere but 9" away. Advanced rules pg 257.

Not saying this to you, but I think there are a lot of people reading the little core rule book and thinking they are wicked smart. Until we have a full copy of the full rulebook with all the advanced rules (and I'd probably say a full copy of all FAQs) I wouldn't try to come up with any complicated strategies yet.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/06 16:32:23


 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




 Tiberius501 wrote:
IanVanCheese wrote:
This raises an interesting point. What was the last new unit GW put out that it gave a 2+ save to? Like without relics or anything, just a straight 2+.

Primaris don't have any afaik. No sisters, No GSC (obviously lol, they made of paper). Was it the Lord of Contagion?


All of the Custodes. Who can all have stormshields too. An army of 2++ would be pretty hilarious.


But don't they have different rules for their storm shields?
   
Made in us
Terrifying Doombull




 BaconCatBug wrote:
Voss wrote:
 Stormonu wrote:
What's the issue with a 1+ save? A natural 1 still fails and AP -4 turns it into a 5+, correct?

No. I'm not sure what edition of 40K people were playing last, but AP doesn't modify the model's save- it modifies the roll.
That how it works in 9th, that's how it worked in 8th and that's even how it worked in 8th edition fantasy. Its been entirely consistent since 40k switch backed to save modifiers: you compare the modified roll to the model's save characteristic, and it fails if the result of the roll is less than the model's save.

The _only_ difference is 9th specifies that only unmodified 1s automatically fail, whereas with 8th and fantasy, any 1 failed, even if there were modifiers.
Actually, in 8th modified 1's passed, as shown by the WS 1+ Succubus FAQ


Shrug. So its even more consistent.
Point is, in modern 40k, AP modifies the roll, not the save characteristic, and its done that since it was reintroduced to the game. It should not be a surprise at this point.

The backwards 'you add the inverse negative number from save modifiers to the armor save to have a worse higher save' [5+ -1 becomes 6+, because AD&D THAC0 'logic'] thing from 1st and 2nd edition hasn't been used in decades.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Umbros wrote:
 Tiberius501 wrote:
IanVanCheese wrote:
This raises an interesting point. What was the last new unit GW put out that it gave a 2+ save to? Like without relics or anything, just a straight 2+.

Primaris don't have any afaik. No sisters, No GSC (obviously lol, they made of paper). Was it the Lord of Contagion?


All of the Custodes. Who can all have stormshields too. An army of 2++ would be pretty hilarious.


But don't they have different rules for their storm shields?

Yes. You still use the rules on their datasheets until an update happens. Which, since the current codexes are supposed to be usable as is, shouldn't happen until those books get redone.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/06 16:38:01


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in ro
Deranged Necron Destroyer




EldarExarch wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
IanVanCheese wrote:
This raises an interesting point. What was the last new unit GW put out that it gave a 2+ save to? Like without relics or anything, just a straight 2+.

Primaris don't have any afaik. No sisters, No GSC (obviously lol, they made of paper). Was it the Lord of Contagion?
Do the Custodes count?


Sanguinary Guard have a native 2+ armor save.


New units.
   
Made in us
Stealthy Sanctus Slipping in His Blade





Bobug wrote:
Realistically though it's a null issue isnt it, because noone will actually play it like that.


Why do you assume that? Just curious honestly.

PourSpelur wrote:
It's fully within the rules for me to look up your Facebook page, find out your dear Mother Gladys is single, take her on a lovely date, and tell you all the details of our hot, sweaty, animal sex during your psychic phase.
I mean, fifty bucks is on the line.
There's no rule that says I can't.
Hive Fleet Hercual - 6760pts
Hazaak Dynasty - 3400 pts
Seraphon - 4600pts
 
   
 
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