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Made in us
The New Miss Macross!





the Mothership...

Guys, while I agree the the general sentiment regarding this latest twist in the case.. it's probably best if people drop the memes, jokes, and flowery commentary and stick to a more factual discussion of the case before the red text starts appearing and suspensions start flying. There are probably almost as many mod warnings as there are pages in this thread so no one can resonably claim ignorance.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/12/30 23:20:30


 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
.







 warboss wrote:
Guys, while I agree the the general sentiment regarding this latest twist in the case.. it's probably best if people drop the memes, jokes, and flowery commentary and stick to a more factual discussion of the case before the red text starts appearing and suspensions start flying. There are probably almost as many mod warnings as there are pages in this thread so no one can resonably claim ignorance.

warboss beat me to it - thanks!

So yes, please keep the conversation on topic...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/30 23:46:56


 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

Seconded.




Only because I have been watching TV rather than reading DakDak this evening.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in us
Wondering Why the Emperor Left





Where do you find the wonderful women?

Perhaps I'm just too jaded to believe anything will be done. After witnessing a Public Defender overdose in the middle of court, and then seeing him in the defense role less than 6 months later, in the same court... you can see where I'm coming from. Things happen, blind eyes are turned and nothing' perfect. I would be very surprised if he was sanctioned by anyone other than those he works for... Hope he does, just doubt it will pan out like that. Hope that makes sense.


"telling a segment of your target market to go feth themselves and the model trikes they rode in on is probably not a good idea" -Veteran Sergeant on squats and sisters 
   
Made in us
Sneaky Kommando






Ellenton, FL

It all depends on how the judge handles it. If it made him mad, then GW is in for a world of hurt. If it just annoyed him, then probably not much. Hopefully it made the judge mad as hell.

Jesus man change your tampon and drive on - darefsky

In the grim darkness of the far future something will shoot your dog. - schadenfreude

And saying you have the manliest tau or eldar tank is like saying you have the world's manliest Prius. I mean yeah, it's fast and all, but it's a friggin PRIUS. - MrMoustaffa
 
   
Made in ca
Battle-tested Knight Castellan Pilot






 Debbin wrote:
It all depends on how the judge handles it. If it made him mad, then GW is in for a world of hurt. If it just annoyed him, then probably not much. Hopefully it made the judge mad as hell.


Hopefully this will mess up his Tee time at the local golf course, I am positive that would piss him right off.

I can't wait until the 'annual price adjustment' kicks in a little earlier this year and what bovine scat Mr Wells will try sell to the investors this year.

/popcorn
   
Made in us
Using Inks and Washes






Do you think that someone needs to tell GW that a legal case that is so fundamental to its business isn't like a battle report where you pick the best out of three and change the rules and results to suit the best presentation of the new army?

I wonder if GW's next move is to sue its legal team?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/01 16:12:34


2014 will be the year of zero GW purchases. Kneadite instead of GS, no paints or models. 2014 will be the year I finally make the move to military models and away from miniature games. 
   
Made in au
PanOceaniac Hacking Specialist Sergeant




Lake Macquarie, NSW

So, someone noted that CHS had been sitting on this for a little while; is the judge likely to frown on this, or are maneuvers like this normal (or at least not uncommon)? Also, for the non-lawyers, what sort of sanctions could be handed out ?

"Going to war without France is like going deer hunting without your accordion."
-Norman Schwartzkopf

W-L-D: 0-0-0. UNDEFEATED 
   
Made in gb
Calculating Commissar




Frostgrave

 Dheneb wrote:
So, someone noted that CHS had been sitting on this for a little while; is the judge likely to frown on this, or are maneuvers like this normal (or at least not uncommon)? Also, for the non-lawyers, what sort of sanctions could be handed out ?


They may have sat on it to see if he'd eventually produce it, and since the email trail includes a bit about Moskin using the summary judgement to try and change the copyright decision, that part must have happened after the summary judgement was produced.

So whilst CHS may have sat on it for a while, the fault should still be with GW for lying about it.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






 Dheneb wrote:
So, someone noted that CHS had been sitting on this for a little while; is the judge likely to frown on this, or are maneuvers like this normal (or at least not uncommon)? Also, for the non-lawyers, what sort of sanctions could be handed out ?


Not sitting on it for awhile. If you look at the date information on their billing - at most they would have been sitting on it for around a month...and that was during the period that they were waiting on the summary judgement (why go out of your way to possibly embarrass the opposition) as well as major holidays in the US. After that, you have all the "stuff" needed to file the brief as well as the responses to the summary judgement and the new case brought by GW during the same period.

Regarding sanctions - anything from a "Whatever" to disbarment. If the judge believes it was intentional - it would likely be a fine against the lawyer in question. Disbarment is very rare - and normally requires gross negligence and commission of some sort of crime.
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Dankhold Troggoth






Shadeglass Maze

So will we hear something by January 4th (when GW needed to reply by?) or will any official notice have to wait until the judge considers what GW has to say?
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






When GW files there response - we will be able to read it shortly after that. The actual response by the judge may or may not be a fair amount of time after that depending on his schedule.

Unless he issues something official like the Summary Judgement document though - we will only get a very short summary of what gets said by him. The transcripts of the hearings are not made available for a significant amount of time after the case.
   
Made in ca
Dakka Veteran




I wonder when the filing deadline is today.
   
Made in de
Painting Within the Lines




Hamburg Germany

Which city (in other means, wich time zone) is the court, actually?
   
Made in us
The Hive Mind





Central Time (GMT -6 I think right now).

It was likely filed today, but we'll have to wait till Monday at the earliest to read it.

My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
 
   
Made in ca
Dakka Veteran




This is the first time I've used pacer, but if it was electronically filed, shouldn't it automagically go up on pacer right away?

Perhaps they decided to paper file this time around? Most everything else has been electronic as far as I can tell.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/05 01:31:03


 
   
Made in au
PanOceaniac Hacking Specialist Sergeant




Lake Macquarie, NSW

Blast. That means it'll be tuesday here.

"Going to war without France is like going deer hunting without your accordion."
-Norman Schwartzkopf

W-L-D: 0-0-0. UNDEFEATED 
   
Made in us
The Hive Mind





czakk wrote:
This is the first time I've used pacer, but if it was electronically filed, shouldn't it automagically go up on pacer right away?

Perhaps they decided to paper file this time around? Most everything else has been electronic as far as I can tell.

Likely not - clerks have to do something after all :-)
IANAL but I'm pretty sure there's still human intervention to get things up on pacer.

My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
 
   
Made in ca
Dakka Veteran




01/04/2013 270 RESPONSE by Games Workshop Limitedin Opposition to MOTION by Defendant Chapterhouse Studios LLC for reconsideration of Summary Judgment Order and Sanctions 267[RECAP] (Attachments: # 1 Affidavit Moskin Declaration, # 2 Exhibit Ex. A)(Keener, Jason) (Entered: 01/04/2013)

It's up and I am reading it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So far, it seems like, I forgot about it, I got busy, and this isn't a big deal, and really this is CHS's fault for not asking a third time...Similar tone to the one they took with regards to not disclosing the copyright assignments that certain artists refused to sign.

From Moskin's Affidavit:

5. Soon after the call and receipt of the prior discovery request, I began culling my records to gather such correspondence, none of which had existed at the time of the prior discovery. As I explained in my November 5 email to Ms. Golinveaux, I was also delayed in doing so as my office was closed for a week after Hurricane Sandy and I was then out of the office for part of the following week. In the process, I noticed that the Copyright Office had never responded to my June 26 email concerning the application for the Assault Squad Shoulder pad. I thus telephoned the Copyright Office to speak with the employee who had first contacted me on June 7 regarding the matter. I left a message with one of her colleagues inquiring generally about the status of the matter, following which I received the November 7 email included in Exhibit A.

6. Although we were preparing to produce all of the correspondence as part of trial preparation (and eager to spare Games Workshop the burden of obtaining certified copies of all the copyright registrations), on November 15, the Court vacated the trial date and shortly thereafter rendered its decision on the summary judgment motions. Moreover, in the interim in discussions with Chapterhouse concerning the new complaint, filed November 12, Chapterhouse made very plain that it recognized no duty to supplement its own discovery responses, leading Games Workshop to seek to bring the issue to the attention of the Court. Games Workshop, to the contrary, consistently acknowledged its duties under Rule 26(e) and never purported to renege on its agreement to produce all correspondence with the Copyright Office.

7. Regarding the suggestion that Games Workshop deliberately concealed evidence from the Court, the reality is that, given the lack of any response from the Copyright Office following my June 26 email, I assumed the matter was resolved. It has been my experience in filing copyright applications that the examiners are very prompt in responding. The failure of the examiner in this case to respond at all for over four months together with the passage of so much time since Chapterhouse served its discovery did not present this as a live issue warranting attention. As noted, I did not review the status of the applications until Chapterhouse raised the issue in November.



I'm not seeing an explanation as to why he never got back after Nov 7 (like, on nov 8th, etc..), other than, hey you ruled later that month judge.


Highlights from the Reply:



Chapterhouse’s motion is based on numerous false statements and a distortion of the factual and legal significance of an initial question raised by a low level Copyright Office employee (who is not even a lawyer) in connection with one application filed by Games Workshop for a shoulder pad design. The statement, which is simply inadmissible hearsay, is entitled to no deference whatsoever.

.....

Although, under certain circumstances not present here, some courts have shown some degree of deference to a final refusal by the Copyright Office to register works, at least where such a refusal is indeed final and sets forth adequate reasoning for the refusal, there has been no such final or even initial refusal here, only a question to which Games Workshop has been invited to respond, and no analysis whatsoever. Even should the examiner ultimately decide to deny registration to the work, Games Workshop would then be entitled to take advantage of the multi-step administrative and judicial review procedures, including: (1) a written objection to the refusal with a request that the Copyright Office reconsider its action; and (2) a written request for reconsideration to the head of the appropriate Examining Division section. Only if this second request were denied would the decision considered a final agency action (supra note 5). Judicial review under 17 U.S.C. § 411(a) could then also be sought.
The point informally raised here by a low level employee, supported by no analysis whatsoever, warrants no deference at all.



Other than that, lots of complaining about CHS, and what not, and a lot of jumping around the timeline, and how busy Moskin was, and how CHS never called him again to ask about it. I can't comment on the arguments + law being cited (the admin law stuff on deference owed to copyright registrar, or the civ pro stuff for what is required to get the judge to revist his opinion).

But, he's got a basic time table problem that he does a bad job hand waving away by talking a lot about June to November, and then ignoring the fact that CHS did in fact pick up the phone and ask him for this info in November, he did go out and get it pretty much right away, and then he sat on it.


Very clear these two sets of lawyers don't have a lot of respect for each other. Sad really.


Also, I'll have to go check some of the older filings - I think they re-used a 'sound and fury' line.

This message was edited 8 times. Last update was at 2013/01/05 04:33:55


 
   
Made in au
Hacking Proxy Mk.1





Australia

I don't speak legalese and have only read the last 5-10 pages of this (huge) thread but my understanding at this point is;

1) There was something about GW not having the paperwork saying they owned some artwork so they tried to strong arm the artists into signing it over (again?).

2) GW had already been unable to copywrite their assault marine shoulder pad design ages ago.

3) That fact could be highly relevant to the case and they new it but didn't come forward with it.

4) Chapterhouse caught them hiding it and now they are saying "Oh, uh, I was busy and forgot" in a way that totally doesn't sound like a middleschooler trying to explain why he didn't do his homework.

Have I missed anything or did I get anything wrong there?

 Fafnir wrote:
Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
 
   
Made in us
The New Miss Macross!





the Mothership...

They didn't try to strong arm artists into signing it over as it was more along the "trick them into doing it" method. They said that the artists had done it in the past but that the paperwork was lost so that they just needed to reconfirm it... but some notable artists said that they never did such a thing.
   
Made in au
Hacking Proxy Mk.1





Australia

Ah, thanks.

 Fafnir wrote:
Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
 
   
Made in de
Decrepit Dakkanaut







I think, a "my dog ate the file" would have been more convincing

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Made in us
The New Miss Macross!





the Mothership...

I do hope that GW and their lawyers' tactics and actions do have a discernable effect on the verdict in the end. I'll leave it to my more learned colleges who work in this field to comment on whether the type of behavior we've seen in the case so far is typical for this size corporate case or not.

So far though, this case is nothing like all those seasons of Law and Order and Matlock I've watched... it's barely even reminiscent of Ally McBeal!
   
Made in ca
Dakka Veteran




Now available for free from Recap:


RESPONSE by Games Workshop Limitedin Opposition to MOTION by Defendant Chapterhouse Studios LLC for reconsideration of Summary Judgment Order and Sanctions:
http://www.archive.org/download/gov.uscourts.ilnd.250791/gov.uscourts.ilnd.250791.270.0.pdf

Mr. Moskin's affidavit
http://www.archive.org/download/gov.uscourts.ilnd.250791/gov.uscourts.ilnd.250791.270.1.pdf

Exhibit A (the emails)
http://www.archive.org/download/gov.uscourts.ilnd.250791/gov.uscourts.ilnd.250791.270.2.pdf


So, what do other folks think?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/01/05 22:49:09


 
   
Made in us
Irked Necron Immortal







Mr Moeskin is in for a world of hurt. His affidavit is dated and signed for June 4th, 2013. :|

 
   
Made in ca
Dakka Veteran




Sloppy clerical error, that's all.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/06 00:38:09


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





 jonolikespie wrote:

2) GW had already been unable to copywrite their assault marine shoulder pad design ages ago.

3) That fact could be highly relevant to the case and they new it but didn't come forward with it.

4) Chapterhouse caught them hiding it and now they are saying "Oh, uh, I was busy and forgot" in a way that totally doesn't sound like a middleschooler trying to explain why he didn't do his homework.

Have I missed anything or did I get anything wrong there?


Between 3 and 4 the Judge made a decision in GW's favour regarding the shoulder pad, even though they forgot to tell him what the copywrite office had said. Strangely they didn't forget to tell the copywrite office immediately about what the Judge had said, and start insisting that the shoulder pad be reged immediately. If we are going to get into middleschooler analogies its a lot like...

"Hey Mom, can I have more Space Marines?"
"No!"
"Hey Dad, can I have more Space Marines?"
"Did you ask your mother?"
"She said to ask you"
"Hmm well okay then"
"Hey Mom, Dad said its okay!"


   
Made in gb
Battle-tested Knight Castellan Pilot




Poole, Dorset

To my untrained mind something really sticks out. Moskin states he thought the matter with the copyright office was closed. Why then, as shown in the email chain, was he the one that then pursued the copyright office later in the year. I can only see this as the facts contradicting his affidavit.

   
Made in ca
Dakka Veteran




UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote:
To my untrained mind something really sticks out. Moskin states he thought the matter with the copyright office was closed. Why then, as shown in the email chain, was he the one that then pursued the copyright office later in the year. I can only see this as the facts contradicting his affidavit.


At which point in the year? He was asked by CHS for the emails that he had never sent over, so that probably reminded him.

The thing that looks sloppy as hell is the June 7 email from the registrar saying 'we can't register this' and then his 'reasoning' that "well they never got back to me after that, so, I assumed they changed their minds".
   
 
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