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Made in us
Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot




Where people Live Free, or Die

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
 Breotan wrote:
czakk wrote:
There is an email chain from Moskin to the Copyright office. Basically, before the summary judgment the registrar says 'we can't register these shoulder pads'.

He doesn't disclose the emails to the court or CHS, despite emailing CHS to say he would disclose any correspondence with the copyright folks (as part of the discovery process).

Then, Moskin turns around and emails the copyright folks and says 'hey, there has been a ruling in a federal court that says we can copyright shoulder pads, please do it now'.

He's got big brass ones.

http://www.archive.org/download/gov.uscourts.ilnd.250791/gov.uscourts.ilnd.250791.267.2.pdf <--- Starts around page 131, the doozy is at 137
Isn't this some sort of ethics violation?



Generally speaking, and normally sanctionable - though the issues of what it means is somewhat more grey. There are specific laws which require disclosure of evidence during discovery for criminal cases - it is less firmly set out though for civil trials and generally ends up falling into the realm of contempt and similar local rules. If you take a look at Rule 26 of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure it covers what must be disclosed by each side as well as some guidelines and related information on the timelines relating to discovery. Rules are squishy though, and if you break a rule...it isn't the same as breaking a law.

The bigger thing is that it makes GW seem even more like Lucille Ball, and it puts the judge in the position of Desi... Lucy, You got some 'splainin' to do. When the judge reconsiders if he should reconsider his summary judgement...unless GW can demonstrate some exceptional reason that they didn't pass on the information to CHS, it will be sitting in the back of the judge's head when he is contemplating the issues at hand.

How much of an impact it may have will really depend on how the judge is feeling. There is enough for the judge to hang his hat on for a complete reversal regarding the protectibility of the shoulder pads (and everything that is derived from the base shoulder pad design). He could stick with what he already ruled upon as well, since although the opinion of an expert agency should be given deference...it isn't mandatory that they agree with anything that the USCO says.



Moskin should be careful of FRCP rule 11(b) violations (dealing with truthful, accurate, and supportable representations to the court). Violation of rule 11(b) can quickly turn into professional sanctions under rule 11(c) against both him personally, his firm, or even GW itself.


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/07 00:28:09


Menaphite Dynasty Necrons - 6000
Karak Hirn Dwarfs - 2500

How many lawyers does it take to change a light bulb?
-- Fifty-Four -- Eight to argue, one to get a continuance, one to object, one to demur, two to research precedents, one to dictate a letter, one to stipulate, five to turn in their time cards, one to depose, one to write interrogatories, two to settle, one to order a secretary to change the bulb, and twenty eight to bill for professional services.
 
   
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It is funny that some of the text ads at the top of the page are for law firms. Maybe Dakka thinks GW is reading this thread, as they may want a new lawyer soon.
   
Made in ca
Dakka Veteran




While we are waiting for the results of the motion hearing, here is something else of interest:

There is a 2007 case involving wineries and trademark issues where Mr. Moskin was one of the lawyers representing the defendant, Cantine Rallo. Again, there were issues with discovery. End result is this:

http://ca.findacase.com/research/wfrmDocViewer.aspx/xq/fac.20070321_0002649.ECA.htm/qx

As described above, the discovery disputes in this case have been numerous. Neither party has been entirely without fault in adding to the costs of discovery. However, as pointed out above, Rallo has consistently and repeatedly failed to respond to discovery requests in a straightforward manner necessitating numerous and repeated motions to compel and requiring Gallo to expend tens of thousands of dollars in attorney fees. Furthermore, Rallo has failed to comply with very specific portions of this Court's November 8, 2007 Order.

Accordingly, the Court imposes sanctions against Rallo and counsel in the amount of $10,000.00 for its conduct in necessitating numerous motions to compel by Gallo which were granted by the Court and its specific failure to obey the Court's Order of November 8, 2006.

These sanctions are payable to Gallo's counsel within 20 days of service of this Order. As discussed in this Order, Rallo is also precluded from using at trial or in dispositive motions, evidence which has not been provided to Gallo in response to discovery.

IT IS SO ORDERED.


So, he could just play the game this way.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So, the results of today's motion hearing,

1) Ruling will be on the 14th of January.
2) Reply to the motion is due on the 10th
3) Lead counsel has to show up in court in person for the ruling. One, or both sides are in for an in person tuning up.


MINUTE entry before Honorable Matthew F. Kennelly: Ruling on motion for reconsideration, 267[RECAP] is reset to 1/14/2013 at 9:30 AM. Reply to motion is to be filed by 1/10/2013. Lead counsel is ordered to appear in person at the ruling. (or, ) (Entered: 01/08/2013)



Perhaps someone with more experience can say what is meant by the 'reply to motion' bit being due on the 10th. Does that mean CHS gets to submit a reply brief (a short answer to GWs reply) or does it mean the judge wants better / more from GW on the issue?


I guess we'll find out on thursday when it gets filed.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/01/08 21:07:25


 
   
Made in de
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My guess is that Moskin has to appear before court so that he gets a ruling/fine against him in person.

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Dakka Veteran




 Kroothawk wrote:
My guess is that Moskin has to appear before court so that he gets a ruling/fine against him in person.


Me too. I wish they posted transcripts more quickly. Then we'd know.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/01/09 00:39:27


 
   
Made in us
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Pleasant Valley, Iowa

Hopefully he's asked to bring his toothbrush, as well.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/09 02:08:54


 lord_blackfang wrote:
Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.

 Flinty wrote:
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czakk wrote:

Perhaps someone with more experience can say what is meant by the 'reply to motion' bit being due on the 10th. Does that mean CHS gets to submit a reply brief (a short answer to GWs reply)


Yes, a memorandum in opposition to the motion.


Menaphite Dynasty Necrons - 6000
Karak Hirn Dwarfs - 2500

How many lawyers does it take to change a light bulb?
-- Fifty-Four -- Eight to argue, one to get a continuance, one to object, one to demur, two to research precedents, one to dictate a letter, one to stipulate, five to turn in their time cards, one to depose, one to write interrogatories, two to settle, one to order a secretary to change the bulb, and twenty eight to bill for professional services.
 
   
Made in us
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Of all the miniature companies that actually kinda win a legal battle with GW why is it the one with the most "meh" models...hopefully this opens the door for other companies.

Games Workshop: Ruining Chaos Space Marines since 2007

First they raised prices on the Eldar, and I did not speak out because I did not play Eldar.

Then, they raised prices on the Orks, and I did not speak out because I did not play Orks.

Then, they raised prices on the Nids, and I did not speak out because I did not play Nids.

Then, they raised prices on the Marines, and there was nobody to speak out for me. 
   
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Shadeglass Maze

Will be interesting to see what happens on the 14th... although, I guess it won't get posted immediately...
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





czakk wrote:
Accordingly, the Court imposes sanctions against Rallo and counsel in the amount of $10,000.00 for its conduct in necessitating numerous motions to compel


Is that all? $10,000 would be pittance for GW. Even for Moskin himself, I doubt it would break the bank. GW getting precluded from bringing forward any more new evidence would be interesting though. That would certainly put the kibosh on any future attempts to falsify and backdate stuff as they need it. They would actually have to have *gasp* a case planned out in advance. Very interesting.
   
Made in ca
2nd Lieutenant





 Smacks wrote:
czakk wrote:
Accordingly, the Court imposes sanctions against Rallo and counsel in the amount of $10,000.00 for its conduct in necessitating numerous motions to compel


Is that all? $10,000 would be pittance for GW. Even for Moskin himself, I doubt it would break the bank. GW getting precluded from bringing forward any more new evidence would be interesting though. That would certainly put the kibosh on any future attempts to falsify and backdate stuff as they need it. They would actually have to have *gasp* a case planned out in advance. Very interesting.


True, but that was for the other case, and while I don't know the details, apparently it was between a couple wineries, to whom 10 grand may not have been back breaking, but to suddenly have to come up with may not have been pocket change either.
   
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 Dawnbringer wrote:
 Smacks wrote:
czakk wrote:
Accordingly, the Court imposes sanctions against Rallo and counsel in the amount of $10,000.00 for its conduct in necessitating numerous motions to compel


Is that all? $10,000 would be pittance for GW. Even for Moskin himself, I doubt it would break the bank. GW getting precluded from bringing forward any more new evidence would be interesting though. That would certainly put the kibosh on any future attempts to falsify and backdate stuff as they need it. They would actually have to have *gasp* a case planned out in advance. Very interesting.


True, but that was for the other case, and while I don't know the details, apparently it was between a couple wineries, to whom 10 grand may not have been back breaking, but to suddenly have to come up with may not have been pocket change either.


10,000 is nothing to these lawyers. 50 hours worth of work at most, very likely much less. The reputational damage is much more important. Judges do not live in a vacuum, they absolutely know who the trustworthy and untrustworthy lawyers are.

And guess who they like better...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/10 06:51:54


Menaphite Dynasty Necrons - 6000
Karak Hirn Dwarfs - 2500

How many lawyers does it take to change a light bulb?
-- Fifty-Four -- Eight to argue, one to get a continuance, one to object, one to demur, two to research precedents, one to dictate a letter, one to stipulate, five to turn in their time cards, one to depose, one to write interrogatories, two to settle, one to order a secretary to change the bulb, and twenty eight to bill for professional services.
 
   
Made in de
Painting Within the Lines




Hamburg Germany

...being caught a second time with this won't do his credit better. One must imply that this is common practice for him.
   
Made in ca
Dakka Veteran




So something was just uploaded to pacer:

Document Number: 272 8 pages 24 kb

Attachment Description
1 Declaration 3 pages 12 kb
2 Exhibit A-B 63 pages 2.2 mb
3 Exhibit C-D 152 pages 3.2 mb
or 226 pages 5.4 mb


Motion is attached as a pdf.

Here is the declaration:


DECLARATION OF JENNIFER A. GOLINVEAUX IN SUPPORT OF DEFENDANT CHAPTERHOUSE STUDIOS LLC’S MOTION TO WITHDRAW MOTION FOR RECONSIDERATION PENDING FINAL DETERMINATION ON REGISTRATION OR ABANDONMENT

I, Jennifer A. Golinveaux, declare as follows:

1. I am a partner with the law firm of Winston & Strawn LLP. I am a member in
good standing of the Bar of this Court. I have personal knowledge of the facts set forth herein and if called to testify could and would do so competently.

2. Attached hereto as Exhibit A is a true and correct copy of correspondence between Games Workshop Limited (“GW”) and the U.S. Copyright Office that GW produced on January 4, 2013, Bates labeled GW0011391-438.

3. GW has been vague about whether it has now compiled and produced all of its correspondence with the Copyright Office related to works-in-suit. After the Court appearance on January 7, 2013 I asked counsel for GW, Jason Keener, to confirm whether all correspondence had been produced. Keener responded that he would have to confer with lead trial counsel, Jonathan Moskin. GW has not further responded to CHS’s request to confirm it has now produced all correspondence with the Copyright Office regarding the works-in-suit.

4. A true and correct certified copy of the “Assault Squad Shoulder Pads” file from the Copyright Office is attached hereto as Exhibit B. This file contains several E-mails between GW’s lead trial counsel, Jonathan Moskin, and the Copyright Office regarding GW’s copyright application for that product. The Copyright Office responded to GW’s “Assault Squad Shoulder Pads” copyright application on June 7, 2012—two months before summary judgment motions were filed in this case.

5. Attached hereto as Exhibit C is a true and correct copy of Games Workshop Limited’s (“GW”) Second Revised Copyright Chart (“Second Rev. Claim Chart”), which it served on Chapterhouse Studios LLC (“CHS”) on August 3, 2012.

6. Attached hereto as Exhibit D is a true and correct copy of Games Workshop Limited’s (“GW”) Copyright Chart for the New Allegedly Infringed Products that were added in GW’s Third Amended Complaint (“New Products Claim Chart”), and which it served on CHS on December 12, 2012.

I declare under the penalty of perjury that the foregoing is true and accurate.



As for the rest, at 226 pages, I don't want to pay for it, so, have to wait until it shows up on RECAP.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
-----------------------------------------

If I am reading the motion correctly Chapterhouse's lawyers basically say that Moskin was either strategically ignoring the copyright office and was abandoning copyright registrations without a fight, or was incompetently allowing them to be abandoned / having the files closed.

It's not clear from what GW has produced as to whether or not the copyright office has closed the file on the shoulder pads (you have 45 days to respond then they close it without the appeal process Moskin was talking about in his filing).

So CHS is withdrawing their motion until there is a final decision from the copyright office. Basically walking it back, while still calling Moskin out. Was this clever lawyering to get the issue in front of the judge as soon as possible, or did they go off half-cocked and just piss off the other side for no reason?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

9. Although CHS believes that the Copyright Office Registration Specialist’s repeated rejection of the sculptural element of the Assault Squad Shoulder Pads was highly relevant to the Court’s summary judgment ruling—and wrongfully withheld from consideration by GW—in light of the Court’s concerns about relying on potentially non-final rejections by the Copyright Office, CHS requests to withdraw its Motion and will seek to re-file it if and only if the Copyright Office Supervisory Specialist rejects the sculptural claim of the application, or if GW strategically allows that claim to become abandoned.
 Filename ilnd-067012025524.pdf [Disk] Download
 Description Motion
 File size 120 Kbytes

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2013/01/11 06:59:01


 
   
Made in ar
Dakka Veteran




Any updates on this? i thought it was to be today the judge´s answer to GW´s "the dog ate my homework".
   
Made in nl
Confessor Of Sins






Might be some time before it appears on PACER though.

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Made in ca
Dakka Veteran




The district court has an RSS feed:

https://ecf.ilnd.uscourts.gov/cgi-bin/rss_outside.pl

I haven't seen anything pop up yet.
   
Made in ca
Dakka Veteran





This docket entry was made by the Clerk on Monday, January 14, 2013:

MINUTE entry before Honorable Matthew F. Kennelly:Motion for reconsideration [267] is granted in part and withdrawn in part.

Motion to withdraw [272] is granted. (or, )



Pretty bare bones.

So, what was left in the motion for reconsideration after CHS withdrew the stuff in 272? Just the sanctions?

-Edit-
I think just this part from the end of 267 is left. I wonder if this means they got sanctions imposed.

This is from the end of CHS's motion for reconsideration, and I think the bit that didn't get withdrawn (so presumably the bit that could be granted in part).

sanction GW by awarding CHS costs for its independent investigation to uncover this improperly withheld evidence and directing GW to produce all correspondence between GW or GW’s counsel and the Copyright Office within seven days of entry of an order granting CHS’s motion.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2013/01/15 23:10:54


 
   
Made in de
Decrepit Dakkanaut







How generous of the judge to pay the defendent his costs for uncovering criminal actions by the plaintiff.
And the criminal action itself goes unpunished?

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If you want to understand the concept of the "Greater Good", read this article, and you never again call Tau commies: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utilitarianism 
   
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South Portsmouth, KY USA

There may be sanctions later on against Moskin. As I understand it his client can also file complaints against him with his BAR. These are published each month, disbarments, sanctions, and reinstatements, in the back of their journal.

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Some of the recent documents have made their way to RECAP (http://archive.recapthelaw.org/ilnd/250791/):

CHS motion to withdraw: http://www.archive.org/download/gov.uscourts.ilnd.250791/gov.uscourts.ilnd.250791.272.0.pdf

CHS Declaration: http://www.archive.org/download/gov.uscourts.ilnd.250791/gov.uscourts.ilnd.250791.272.1.pdf

Exhibit C-D (Copyright claims chart): http://www.archive.org/download/gov.uscourts.ilnd.250791/gov.uscourts.ilnd.250791.272.3.pdf

The minutes from the recent ruling: http://www.archive.org/download/gov.uscourts.ilnd.250791/gov.uscourts.ilnd.250791.274.0.pdf


Still missing are exhibits A-B, which is the email chain between Mr. Moskin and the copyright office.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/16 19:26:58


 
   
Made in us
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Haven't followed this story in a while. As I understand it nothing of any major significance has been settled...CHS has landed some blows, Gw has landed some.

The judge did say that GW could copywrite the shoulder pads though. Only to later find out that the copywrite office said "no, you can't, they are too small and indistinct." Only GW failed to disclose this to the judge, or to CHS's attorney.

While it appears there is some find of "fine" on the way for this, I cannot determine if the judge has backtracked on his/her previous statement of "yes you can" or if the cw office's decision has more weight on this than the judge's determination.

Is that the nuts and bolts? Am I missing anything?







 
   
Made in us
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Pleasant Valley, Iowa

Indeed, I too am confused about the final disposition of the shoulderpad issue - protectable, or not?

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.

 Flinty wrote:
The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
 
   
Made in ca
Dakka Veteran




 Ouze wrote:
Indeed, I too am confused about the final disposition of the shoulderpad issue - protectable, or not?


CHS asked the judge to reconsider his ruling on the shoulder pads (and to dismiss some claims, which GW agreed to) based on emails they obtained between Mr. Moskin and the copyright registrar. The copyright folks refused to register the shoulder pads.

GW brought up the fact that the copyright office's "no" wasn't necessarily a final answer, just an initial screening - there is an appeals process and what not to go through before it is final.

At the motion hearing the judge had concerns about revisiting his earlier decision based on what might not be final decision from the copyright office. If he went back and said 'no you can't copyright shoulder pads' and then the copyright office came back and said 'yes you can' he'll have wasted a bunch of time etc...I think he suggested CHS withdraw the motion until the copyright office's final decision.

CHS said, okay we understand your concerns judge, we'd like to delay you having a second look at your decision until the copyright office gives a final answer. Oh and by the way, because Mr. Moskin didn't reply to the copyright office for over 40 days, we think they will likely close the file without allowing an appeal.


Judge says, - okay, refile your motion when the copyright office gives a final answer.

As far as the sanctions and turning over of any emails between the copyright office and GW, we don't know for sure what happened and won't until either a written order is produced, or it is referenced in a future filing, or the transcripts are put up (which takes forever).

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/01/16 21:34:37


 
   
Made in us
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Pleasant Valley, Iowa

Thank you again for your response, and in general, your contributions to this thread.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.

 Flinty wrote:
The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
 
   
Made in ca
Dakka Veteran




No problem, it is a break from my thesis.
   
Made in us
Incorporating Wet-Blending






Glendale, AZ

czakk wrote:
 Ouze wrote:
Indeed, I too am confused about the final disposition of the shoulderpad issue - protectable, or not?


CHS asked the judge to reconsider his ruling on the shoulder pads (and to dismiss some claims, which GW agreed to) based on emails they obtained between Mr. Moskin and the copyright registrar. The copyright folks refused to register the shoulder pads.

GW brought up the fact that the copyright office's "no" wasn't necessarily a final answer, just an initial screening - there is an appeals process and what not to go through before it is final.

At the motion hearing the judge had concerns about revisiting his earlier decision based on what might not be final decision from the copyright office. If he went back and said 'no you can't copyright shoulder pads' and then the copyright office came back and said 'yes you can' he'll have wasted a bunch of time etc...I think he suggested CHS withdraw the motion until the copyright office's final decision.

CHS said, okay we understand your concerns judge, we'd like to delay you having a second look at your decision until the copyright office gives a final answer. Oh and by the way, because Mr. Moskin didn't reply to the copyright office for over 40 days, we think they will likely close the file without allowing an appeal.


Judge says, - okay, refile your motion when the copyright office gives a final answer.

As far as the sanctions and turning over of any emails between the copyright office and GW, we don't know for sure what happened and won't until either a written order is produced, or it is referenced in a future filing, or the transcripts are put up (which takes forever).


Exalted. Thank you for taking the time to clarify.

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Exhibit A-B (the emails between Mr Moskin and the copyright office, and the copyright office file on the shoulderpads) is now up on Recap:

http://www.archive.org/download/gov.uscourts.ilnd.250791/gov.uscourts.ilnd.250791.272.2.pdf


I did a quick skim, didn't see anything new, other than the amount of amending / correcting that had to be done. The initial applications may have been rushed.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/17 19:29:41


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






San Jose, CA

Wow. "The reason for this notation was the understanding of prior IP counsel at Games Workshop that it somehow broadened the scope of protection. Hence, every work during his tenure has the copyright notice covering the years 2000 to the date of actual publication."

GW's Legal Department sounds like a really interesting place to be. There are cases where you WOULD use a hyphenated copyright notice (e.g., websites usually use that notation, as the actual copyrights for content thereon will vary with when it was actually added, but nothing before the initial launch), but on EVERY work?

Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






It would seem that Moskin still doesn't fully understand what he is actually dealing with...

The various Codex versions are seperate copyrightable works. Each of them should be copyrighted for the date that they are published (just because the title for Codex Space Marines has been the same for 15 some odd years doesn't mean it is the same book).

The copyright notice in the front (or back depending on the particular book) which has a date which might be annotated as 2000-2007 is put in place because portions of the book may end up going back to 2000. It might be artwork, story excerpts or pictures of the models themselves (though those should actually be the date of the photograph...not the date of the model design).

In a proper copyright filing, those portions which are excerpted from other works (either previously published in earlier Codixes or White Dwarf or short segments from things like Black Library books) should be annotated and excluded from the new filing. Those prior works are not protected based on the newest filing date - but the first filing date (or lack of filing...which would be the creation date).

As a result - I would guess that pretty much every single filing which they have done is actually incorrect.
   
 
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