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Here, many of the accused Chapterhouse products are alleged to have infringed based on the fact that they are designed to fit on or with Plaintiff’s products. ASUF 8 (Hartzell Decl. Ex. D, F). For example, Large Ammo Belts for Heavy Weapons (Product No. 162) and many of the accused Chapterhouse Shoulder Pads are “designed to fit” on Games Workshop figures. Rather than directly copying of a Games Workshop product, these Chapterhouse products simply provide additional complementary pieces that a consumer of Games Workshop products might use. Any portion of the Ammo Belts or the Shoulder Pads found to be a copy of any Games Workshop product is a transformative use because the Chapterhouse products that are so accused do not supersede the market for the original Games Workshop works. Instead, the Chapterhouse products enhance the market for the Games Workshop products by offering complementary products, much in the same way that hammers complement the market for nails.

heh


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Also, all the 303 exhibits (and there are a pile) are up on recap (http://archive.recapthelaw.org/ilnd/250791/).


(portion of deposition with GW designer about kroxigors and grey knights)
http://ia600405.us.archive.org/18/items/gov.uscourts.ilnd.250791/gov.uscourts.ilnd.250791.303.19.pdf


And I believe the full report by Dr. Grindley is up there, broken into pieces.

And more importantly (at least in as much as I understand the convoluted court systems of the greater Eurozone...) - Poland, as part of the European Union would actually defer to matters of settled case law to the home country of the company who is bringing suit against them...and can further site rulings made by courts like the British Supreme Court. Since LucasFilm v Ainsworth fairly well settled the matter of toy soldiers not being protected under copyright law and instead being protected under design rights, and further design rights being greatly limited in scope and duration (all of which would be expired for the Space Marines given that the first design was in 1985 and the maximum duration of a design right being 15 years) - it would be a major blow to the various things which GW claims as there own should they attempt to bring suit to any of the various companies in the Eurozone who are making "not-Space Marines" like Scribor, Anvil Industries, Hitech et al. Some are based in Eastern European countries - but at the very least one of them is based in GW's own backyard.

So wait, didn't GW's lawyer call space marines 'toys'?

25 Q In the models that actually get made...
the figures, they are made out of plastic. People are 13:54:43
2 not firing projectiles, there are not actually brains 13:54:47
3 inside the figures, the model heads. They are toys, 13:54:50
4 effectively?

And doesn't this essentially screw their argument on copyright?

They are whatever they need to be at the time, apparently. Toys when it suits them, art/sculptures likewise...models when calling them toys will put people off.

czakk wrote:

Instead, the Chapterhouse products enhance the market for the Games Workshop products by offering complementary products, much in the same way that hammers complement the market for nails.

heh

Nice

It is a technical term from Economics.

Complementary goods are items whose sales curves are positively correlated -- linked -- even though they are from separate producers (usually).

The classic example is bacon and eggs, because people buy bacon and eggs for breakfast. If they have the money to buy more bacon they will also buy more eggs.

I am by no means a GW hater, and at the start of the case I figured GW should win, because of the obvious fact, that If I personally invented Space Marines, and the bloke next door started selling accessories for them out of his garage I would be pissed off about it.

But, I really loathe incompetence and stupidity more, so I'm now hoping they get crushed.

From what I've read in this thread, the dumb bastards don't deserve to win.

 mattyrm wrote:
I am by no means a GW hater, and at the start of the case I figured GW should win, because of the obvious fact, that If I personally invented Space Marines, and the bloke next door started selling accessories for them out of his garage I would be pissed off about it.

But, I really loathe incompetence and stupidity more, so I'm now hoping they get crushed.

From what I've read in this thread, the dumb bastards don't deserve to win.

I can see the logic to your original position Matty, but that would be equivalent to saying that their should be no after-parts market for cars, no fitting non-Canon parts to a Canon camera, etc...

 mattyrm wrote:
I am by no means a GW hater, and at the start of the case I figured GW should win, because of the obvious fact, that If I personally invented Space Marines, and the bloke next door started selling accessories for them out of his garage I would be pissed off about it.

But, I really loathe incompetence and stupidity more, so I'm now hoping they get crushed.

From what I've read in this thread, the dumb bastards don't deserve to win.

I know exactly what you mean. When I first heard about this I though 'well come on, CH aren't even bothering to call them space knights or blue marines with Us instead of space marines and ultramarines, this is one time GW should win'.

Then came the hiding evidence and trying to steal from artists.

I think maybe modern corporate-led GW are paying for the fact that they used to be amateur hobby-enthusiast-led GW and used to do things the same way many companies do things now.

 Fifty wrote:

I can see the logic to your original position Matty, but that would be equivalent to saying that their should be no after-parts market for cars, no fitting non-Canon parts to a Canon camera, etc...

Aye we've had that out numerous times, I disagree because I think parts for cameras and cars and such as far more generic than something creatively nailed on, like say the Ultramarines, or Spiderman's costume or something. But lets not bother dragging this OT with that now entirely ancient debate.

Suffice to say that I am a convert to team "I hope they get crushed and then everyone starts selling cheap combi-weapons"

 mattyrm wrote:
I am by no means a GW hater, and at the start of the case I figured GW should win, because of the obvious fact, that If I personally invented Space Marines, and the bloke next door started selling accessories for them out of his garage I would be pissed off about it.

But, I really loathe incompetence and stupidity more, so I'm now hoping they get crushed.

From what I've read in this thread, the dumb bastards don't deserve to win.

From loosely following this from the off I have to agree with Matty. GW are coming off as complete incompetents.

Anyway, as Mattyrm said let's keep the discussion on topic.

REPLY by Defendant Chapterhouse Studios LLC to motion for reconsideration 287 of summary judgment order (Attachments: # 1 Declaration of Bryce A. Cooper, # 2 Exhibit A-B)(Cooper, Bryce) (Entered: 03/18/2013)

http://www.archive.org/download/gov.uscourts.ilnd.250791/gov.uscourts.ilnd.250791.306.0.pdf


306.1 Declaration of Bryce A. Cooper
http://www.archive.org/download/gov.uscourts.ilnd.250791/gov.uscourts.ilnd.250791.306.1.pdf


306.2 Exhibit A-B
http://www.archive.org/download/gov.uscourts.ilnd.250791/gov.uscourts.ilnd.250791.306.2.pdf




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A lot of work being done in the footnotes here as well as the main body.


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There are some sealed exhibits that went up as well:


03/19/2013 307 SEALED EXHIBIT by Defendant Chapterhouse Studios LLC Exhibits A, B, L, M and Q to the Declaration of Julianne M. Hartzell regarding response in opposition to motion,,,,, 303[RECAP] (Attachments: # 1 Exhibit A, # 2 Exhibit B, # 3 Exhibit L, # 4 Exhibit M, # 5 Exhibit Q)(Kalemeris, Sarah) (Entered: 03/19/2013)

Just to give a point of reference on the size difference between GWs Space Marine Shoulder pads vs a modern military shoulder pad:

Mohoc wrote:
Just to give a point of reference on the size difference between GWs Space Marine Shoulder pads vs a modern military shoulder pad:

Spoiler:

[img]http://images.dakkadakka.com/gallery/2009/6/13/37863_md-Space%20Marines,%20Space%20marine.JPG[/img

]

I think you have to consider more than just those images. The broaden shoulders are at least in part a byproduct of the space marine being modeled in heroic scale. The other component to the shoulder pads shape and proportions is simply the fact the shoulder pad is a separate piece that must conform to an underlying "shoulder" and also be reproducible at such a small size with a particular degree of rigidity as established by constraints of the technology of the early 90s. Once you get that basic shape from practical constraints the only addition to get the the most basic pad is the addition of the trim.

The size of shoulder pad is irrelevant as a distinguishing characteristic feature since a larger scale model could feature a physically identical piece that covered a much smaller area of the body.

Not to make light of the "experts" but maybe they need to get outside of the dusty english history museums and realize that "oversized shoulder armor" was all the rage in Japan for several hundred years. The shoulder armor of the late Sengoku period often had a very simular shape to space marine armor and defiantely had the size as it'd cover from the neck to the elbow. Making the shoulder pieces much larger than the head. The armor is often segmented but much of it looks very solid at a glance and even has a raised lip along the edges to help deflect musket fire.





If you want a white culture friendly example here you go, no need to burn your precious eyes gazing upon a yellow man....




I'd say I was surprised that nobody has mentioned historical japanese armor, but cultural bias tends to help forget that stuff ever existed.

Hmm, not really seeing the similarities paulson games. Not as large, nor wrapped around the arm AND as you pointed out the samurai one is segmented. I think the only GW pad like that is a champion's but that's more like a 2 part layer and not the multiple 'centipede' look.

GW's claim rests mostly on the size being the identifying and distinctive feature.

The shape has been denied by the copyright office, so the only leg they have to fight on is the size of the pad vs the head and body, which most samurai armor shares.

Like marine armor it's as large, or larger than the head extending to the elbows.

(Even with jousting flares European plate armor is much much smaller in proportion to the head)

Pretty large shoulder-pad (pauldron) here:

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5201/5239893811_c50fe646c4_m.jpg


There are other examples elsewhere as well I know that I have seen a similar design for horseback armor as well, mainly for joustong I think.

The issue with the size of course is "heroic" scale. It is like saying because one artist draws a big headed caricature than no other artist can draw a big headed caricature, because they have a copyright on big headedness. Caricatures are a style just like heroic scale is, and just like with caricatures and their bigheadedness - big shoulders are part of heroic scale.

You can see a clear example of this influence if you look at something like the movie Stormtroopers and the test miniatures which GW did.

http://realmofchaos80s.blogspot.com/2013/01/a-stormtrooper-solution-marcus-ansell.html

The heroically scaled Stormtrooper features shoulder pads which are huge compared to the real deal (granted they don't look nearly as big on that figure due to the enormous helmet...but that is a different issue). So, when you compare real world armor and examples from other movies and fictional sources...you need to use the Fun House mirror which distorts the image to match a comparable level of heroicness.

With that in mind - you don't have to look as far east as Japan...there is plenty which is right in GW's own backyard.

http://www.metmuseum.org/Collections/search-the-collections/40001158?rpp=60&pg=1&rndkey=20130319&ft=*&deptids=4&when=A.D.+1400-1600&what=Embossing&pos=20

The shoulder pieces on that particular setup go from top of the shoulder all the way down to the elbow (it is segmented - but that is an issue of actually needing to fit a person in there).

http://www.artnet.com/magazine_pre2000/features/stern/stern11-17-2.asp

That armor has a stylized shoulder pad that extends to the middle of the upper arm and then has the leather straps which you see in Heresy Era artwork from GW extending down to the elbow.

There are actually several other lion head pauldrons that are larger than those...though I can't seem to find them in context to show size (either a person holding them or as part of a suit). I recall seeing one set which I believe was done by one of the Negroli family where the lion head was bigger than my head.

Much of the 'parade' armor from the Renaissance was oversized and overly ornate in order to make the noble who happened to be wearing it look bigger than they actually were (much the same reasoning which Bob gave in his deposition).

Also the shoulder pads have changed over the years. When marines were first released they were no where as big as the current ones. So when do they think they distinctly created the large pads as a design choice rather than let them grown stylistically over a number of years and in accordance with casting limitations?

Howard A Treesong wrote:Also the shoulder pads have changed over the years. When marines were first released they were no where as big as the current ones. So when do they think they distinctly created the large pads as a design choice rather than let them grown stylistically over a number of years and in accordance with casting limitations?

I don't know what they think, but I said this in my previous post, we really only get the larger "oversized" shoulder pads when GW started making the shoulder pad a separate piece in the early 90's. Prior to that the shoulder pad was either integral to the whole model or integral to an arm piece. The size is really a direct consequence making it a separate piece and the limitations of plastic technology at that time; any less bulky and the piece would not cast consistently when being injection molded. Domed shells have a tendency to cast with voids in the center if not given an adequet amount of thickness to the part.

Large Shoulderpads? Totally new

 Kroothawk wrote:
Large Shoulderpads? Totally new

Is it sad that I don't find those shoulderpads to be all that large simply because it doesn't look as disproportional to the rest of the armor and the body in it ala power armor:

If you do a search for the Excalibur movie you will find that there are large impractical armour shoulder pads. All GW did is build on the concept of Knights armour.

308 is up, nothing new, just CHS's motion to file stuff under seal being approved, which we already knew.

DOCKET ENTRY TEXT
Hearing on motion for leave to file under unseal held (304). Motion is granted.

I remember hearing about the Big 3 in Detroit going after K&N air filters. IIRC they were saying that using said filter would void your factory warranty due to the fact that 'they' said it would allow more contaminants and debris in than a factory paper filter. Come to find out that a filthy K&N air filter would let more air through than a brand new OEM filter and it had better filtration than the paper ones.

The judge ruled that unless the makers wanted to give the consumer free air filters when they wished that it was unlawful to void warranties in such a way.

To me this directly ties into 3rd party, or aftermarket parts, being usable by the consumer.

I am not an attorney by any stretch of the imagination, but to me this reeks of GW money grabbing. This along with other trade practices that GW has been implementing over the last few years .... I honestly hope that they get their ass's handed to them.

Some new replies filed.


If I recall correctly, we are due a judgment on April 1st?

CHS's other filings that went with 309 main.