Chapterhouse Lawsuit - Settlement reached, Appeals withdrawn - Pg 234! Chapterhouse to re-open store

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**Ketara**

Janthkin wrote:
Ketara wrote:
Some of those, like the Mechanicus cog, are pretty significant losses to have knocked out so early without question. That means any company can now put the Mechanicus cog on their models. It also means GW have finally lost supposed ownership of the Chaos Star.
It doesn't really mean that. All this means is that GW & CH were able to agree that CH's products do not infringe GW's claimed trademarks (for the list of trademarks appearing on the list); it doesn't mean that GW has somehow lost those claimed trademarks, or the ability to pursue trademark claims against other people for those marks in the future.

Really? I thought the court had ruled on these, I didn't realise it was an agreement between GW and CHS.

So just out of curiosity, if I had a product with a snake eating its own tail, and GW sued me tomorrow, I couldn't wheel out the Thousand Sons icon above and its removal from the case as a defence?

**Janthkin**

Ketara wrote:
Janthkin wrote:
Ketara wrote:
Some of those, like the Mechanicus cog, are pretty significant losses to have knocked out so early without question. That means any company can now put the Mechanicus cog on their models. It also means GW have finally lost supposed ownership of the Chaos Star.
It doesn't really mean that. All this means is that GW & CH were able to agree that CH's products do not infringe GW's claimed trademarks (for the list of trademarks appearing on the list); it doesn't mean that GW has somehow lost those claimed trademarks, or the ability to pursue trademark claims against other people for those marks in the future.

Really? I thought the court had ruled on these, I didn't realise it was an agreement between GW and CHS.

So just out of curiosity, if I had a product with a snake eating its own tail, and GW sued me tomorrow, I couldn't wheel out the Thousand Sons icon above and its removal from the case as a defence?

Not in the way you mean. These rulings are fact-pattern specific. The court didn't rule on the validity of GW's claims to a trademark on the Thousand Sons icon; it merely sanctioned the agreement between the parties that CH doesn't infringe on GW's claimed trademark.

You could offer this to another court for consideration during such a lawsuit, but nothing here says that GW can't continue to claim all of those marks as trademarks, and try to enforce them.

**Enigwolf**

Janthkin wrote:
Ketara wrote:
Janthkin wrote:
Ketara wrote:
Some of those, like the Mechanicus cog, are pretty significant losses to have knocked out so early without question. That means any company can now put the Mechanicus cog on their models. It also means GW have finally lost supposed ownership of the Chaos Star.
It doesn't really mean that. All this means is that GW & CH were able to agree that CH's products do not infringe GW's claimed trademarks (for the list of trademarks appearing on the list); it doesn't mean that GW has somehow lost those claimed trademarks, or the ability to pursue trademark claims against other people for those marks in the future.

Really? I thought the court had ruled on these, I didn't realise it was an agreement between GW and CHS.

So just out of curiosity, if I had a product with a snake eating its own tail, and GW sued me tomorrow, I couldn't wheel out the Thousand Sons icon above and its removal from the case as a defence?
Not in the way you mean. These rulings are fact-pattern specific. The court didn't rule on the validity of GW's claims to a trademark on the Thousand Sons icon; it merely sanctioned the agreement between the parties that CH doesn't infringe on GW's claimed trademark.

You could offer this to another court for consideration during such a lawsuit, but nothing here says that GW can't continue to claim all of those marks as trademarks, and try to enforce them.

Exactly. All that happen was both sides looked at the filings and went, "Yeah, these didn't infringe on those copyrights/trademarks".

**Kilkrazy**

The Work Ouroborous is an ancient symbol dating from Viking times at least.

**Janthkin**

Kilkrazy wrote:
The Work Ouroborous is an ancient symbol dating from Viking times at least.

that's not dispositive in a trademark case. Apple is just a word, until it's a trademark.

**Kilkrazy**

You would have to register it in particular industrial sectors, wouldn't you?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I mean, the thing with GW is they claimed for example a cogwheel as a trademark of... what? Now it looks like it will be overturned.

**sourclams**

Kilkrazy wrote:
The Work Ouroborous is an ancient symbol dating from Viking times at least.

Oddly enough, for the fluff nuts, that is probably exactly why/how Magnus and the Thousand Sons adopted it as their symbol.

**Janthkin**

Kilkrazy wrote:
You would have to register it in particular industrial sectors, wouldn't you?

I mean, the thing with GW is they claimed for example a cogwheel as a trademark of... what? Now it looks like it will be overturned.

Yes, trademarks are (generally) only enforceable within the particular market segment they are registered/used in.

And since that particular assertion has been removed from the case, GW doesn't have to go on the record as to what it's actually a trademark for, and the court/jury don't have the opportunity to rule it not a trademark.

**Ouze**

So, they've lost the rights to, among other things, the Blood Raven icon? How is that even possible. I could see some of the more tenuous stuff but that seemed pretty cut and dried.

**derek**

Ouze wrote:
So, they've lost the rights to, among other things, the Blood Raven icon? How is that even possible. I could see some of the more tenuous stuff but that seemed pretty cut and dried.

I don't think they've lost rights to it, they've merely decided that CHS wasn't infringing on that particular icon.

**Ouze**

Ok, that makes more sense. The CHS one looked nothing like it, other then it was a bird.

**BaronIveagh**

Pacific wrote:
Trying to claim the 8 pointed star as their own?!?! Hilarious. I wonder if Michael Moorcock is aware of what's going on?

I'm sure he would be against this, and at the very least summon Elric of Melibone to come and cast the GW legal team adrift in the sea of time...

I'm actually surprised that CHS didn't ask him to testify. GW *had* the license for the Elric series, and then when they lost it, made some minor alterations to the sculpts and declared the former Melnibonians to be High Elves.

There are a lot of shady goings on in the history of GW. To this day I find that letter the then head of GW wrote complaining about Copyright and how it's bad for the industry hilarious in hindsight.

I will say that I'm surprised that a lot of the factual history of GW and how they came to believe they owned this stuff is not coming up in the trial.

Oh, and the Blood Ravens thing is actually a bit shakey as far as who owns the Copyright. GW claims it, but it was not done as work for hire for them. That might be why it was dropped is that they couldn't actually prove they owned it.

**Enigwolf**

BaronIveagh wrote:

Oh, and the Blood Ravens thing is actually a bit shakey as far as who owns the Copyright. GW claims it, but it was not done as work for hire for them. That might be why it was dropped is that they couldn't actually prove they owned it.

When Relic Entertainment released Dawn of War and Dawn of War 2, I thought I recalled seeing a trademark for the Blood Ravens logo. Did anyone else see that?

**darkPrince010**

Iirc, the Blood Ravens chapter, logo and all, well preceded the DoW games. What I think happened was they couldn't prove they owned the original image for whatever reason, and so the "trademark" on the DoW's Blood Ravens was merely force of habit

**PsychoticStorm**

Blood Ravens is a chapter created by Relic especially for DoW series, I think GW agreed that CH did not infringe on many of their most important marks in order to not test them, they probably fear they might lose them if been put to the test.

**Kroothawk**

BaronIveagh wrote:

I'm actually surprised that CHS didn't ask him to testify. GW *had* the license for the Elric series, and then when they lost it, made some minor alterations to the sculpts and declared the former Melnibonians to be High Elves.

There are a lot of shady goings on in the history of GW. To this day I find that letter the then head of GW wrote complaining about Copyright and how it's bad for the industry hilarious in hindsight.

I will say that I'm surprised that a lot of the factual history of GW and how they came to believe they owned this stuff is not coming up in the trial.

The early history of GW is not shady, and drawing inspiration from collegues is not hilarious. It is how creativity works. Every artist is inspired by his collegues and copys some things, makes new combinations and/or adds new stuff. Rarely if ever is something completely new. Every creative staff will acknowledge that, even at GW. It is just lawyers, who don't know how creative work functions, that try to cut off all inspiration for the profit of their clients. So don't fall into the trap of lawyers and think that inspiration is illegal and shady.

**Hivefleet Oblivion**

Kroothawk wrote:

The early history of GW is not shady...

It is just lawyers, who don't know how creative work functions, that try to cut off all inspiration for the profit of their clients. So don't fall into the trap of lawyers and think that inspiration is illegal and shady.

Very true words. Unfortunately, lawyers have picked on IP (and patents) as a huge area of growth. They are infesting just about every creative company, and attempting to do the same to their own creatives.

I firmly believe in the idea of IP and copyright, but in battles to defend it, it's normally the lawyers and big companies who win.

**Meade**

My hope is that the chaos symbol, and double headed eagle come out of this as firmly in the public domain, and third party creators feel free to use those more. GW has no right to claim ownership of those...

**Azazelx**

Kilkrazy wrote:
It's not surprising that common words and symbols such as "heavy weapon" or a cog wheel would fail to be found admissible of copyright.

The surprising thing is how long GW's claimed ownership has gone unchallenged.

A cog with a skull inside it would probably have been lost as well, if it was on the table. They're both incredibly generic elements.

**czakk**

Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:
Kroothawk wrote:

The early history of GW is not shady...

It is just lawyers, who don't know how creative work functions, that try to cut off all inspiration for the profit of their clients. So don't fall into the trap of lawyers and think that inspiration is illegal and shady.

Very true words. Unfortunately, lawyers have picked on IP (and patents) as a huge area of growth. They are infesting just about every creative company, and attempting to do the same to their own creatives.

I firmly believe in the idea of IP and copyright, but in battles to defend it, it's normally the lawyers and big companies who win.

Have you guys noticed the large number of lawyers who are all working on this case for free?

**Kilkrazy**

That is the reason why Chapter House haven't been crushed.

**Alpharius**

Meade wrote:
My hope is that the chaos symbol, and double headed eagle come out of this as firmly in the public domain, and third party creators feel free to use those more. GW has no right to claim ownership of those...

That isn't what's going to come out of this case though.

I think it has already been said that GW and CHS 'agree' that CHS is not infringing the things on that list that was in an earlier post.

It isn't an admission from GW or a decision by the courts on the validity of them either.

**BaronIveagh**

Kroothawk wrote:

The early history of GW is not shady,

Ask Michael Moorcock about it some time. I believe he would tell you otherwise.

Kroothawk wrote:
and drawing inspiration from collegues is not hilarious.

Ian Livingstone wrote:
Wargamers have an easy time in that obviously no copyright exists, say, on World War II and therefore any battle can be simulated therefrom and put into game format by any manufacturer without infringing any copyright laws. However, SF/F games and miniature figures lean heavily on SF/F films and literature for ideas and themes. They have to. Now should manufacturers pay for the rights to produce those games SF/F games and figures based on the well known books and films? Yes, of course they should, but whether or not they would be granted the rights is a different matter. Twentieth Century Fox are quite happy to allow a mass market Star Wars game or even Darth Vader bubble baths (fact) as they will generate high royalties. The manufacturer who is interested in applying for a licence to make products for the SFIF fan is likely to be turned down as the market is small.

Therefore those manufacturers have to try to get round the copyright laws at expense and annoyance to both themselves and their customers. Holders of copyright tolerate some of these goings-on, but What's happening in the SF/F world now the SF/F games and figure manufacturers are beginning to be squeezed. The game Siege of Minas Tirith has disappeared from the shelves and is soon to be followed by TSR's Battle of the Five Armies (which may reappear at a later date) and who knows how long FGU's War of the Ring will last. It is sad to learn also that Miniature Figurines are soon to withdraw their Mythical Earth range of figures.

It seems evident that nobody will gain from this strict enforcement of copyright laws, but the SF/F hobbyist will definitely lose. Let's hope that such problems can be resolved so that in future the wargames table will welcome the presence of Darth Vader with a light sabre, rather than a lawsuit, in his hands.

He's not talking about 'inspired by' he's talking about 'based on'. There's a big difference. (and the fact that his examples are Middle Earth TT wargames is hilarious considering GW's position on that now.)

**xxvaderxx**

Kilkrazy wrote:
That is the reason why Chapter House haven't been crushed.

Well in all fairness, i imagine defeating a multi millon dollar company´s legal team on a copyright claim has to look good on any lawyer´s resume.

**jonolikespie**

PsychoticStorm wrote:
Blood Ravens is a chapter created by Relic especially for DoW series, I think GW agreed that CH did not infringe on many of their most important marks in order to not test them, they probably fear they might lose them if been put to the test.

I am not a lawyer but I got that distinct impression. A lot of the things that got taken down are pretty important to GW but very hard for them to defend (templar's cross, the cog, the inverted omega symbol). I can't see them dropping some of those unless they were worried the ruling would go against them. Better to let CH continue making ultra shoulder pads than to let everyone make them.

**xxvaderxx**

jonolikespie wrote:
PsychoticStorm wrote:
Blood Ravens is a chapter created by Relic especially for DoW series, I think GW agreed that CH did not infringe on many of their most important marks in order to not test them, they probably fear they might lose them if been put to the test.

I am not a lawyer but I got that distinct impression. A lot of the things that got taken down are pretty important to GW but very hard for them to defend (templar's cross, the cog, the inverted omega symbol). I can't see them dropping some of those unless they were worried the ruling would go against them. Better to let CH continue making ultra shoulder pads than to let everyone make them.

Notice however that they got taken down with out prejudice. Meaning GW could come back say 5 years down the line and throw the exact expensive (legal wise) tantrum its throwing now. I see it not as a defeat but rather a tactical retreat on their part, while noble, this lawyers can not be expected to defend CHS pro bono for ever. Thou i am not a lawyer far from it, so it would be nice if some one could confirm.

**Kilkrazy**

xxvaderxx wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:
That is the reason why Chapter House haven't been crushed.

Well in all fairness, i imagine defeating a multi millon dollar company´s legal team on a copyright claim has to look good on any lawyer´s resume.

I don't think they are doing it for the props.

The law firm doing pro bono for the Defence is a noted west coast IP outfit. They don't need as a company need the exposure. It is the firm that takes on the case rather than the individual partners or juniors.

Pro Bono work is an important part of legal ethics in the USA, and naturally it's best if a lawyer works in the area he knows best.

**rigeld2**

xxvaderxx wrote:
jonolikespie wrote:
PsychoticStorm wrote:
Blood Ravens is a chapter created by Relic especially for DoW series, I think GW agreed that CH did not infringe on many of their most important marks in order to not test them, they probably fear they might lose them if been put to the test.

I am not a lawyer but I got that distinct impression. A lot of the things that got taken down are pretty important to GW but very hard for them to defend (templar's cross, the cog, the inverted omega symbol). I can't see them dropping some of those unless they were worried the ruling would go against them. Better to let CH continue making ultra shoulder pads than to let everyone make them.

Notice however that they got taken down with out prejudice. Meaning GW could come back say 5 years down the line and throw the exact expensive (legal wise) tantrum its throwing now. I see it not as a defeat but rather a tactical retreat on their part, while noble, this lawyers can not be expected to defend CHS pro bono for ever. Thou i am not a lawyer far from it, so it would be nice if some one could confirm.

The only thing they withdrew without prejudice is the hell hound/Hellhound thing. The other stuff has prejudice attached.
Unless I forgot how to read.

**fullheadofhair**

rigeld2 wrote:
xxvaderxx wrote:
jonolikespie wrote:
PsychoticStorm wrote:
Blood Ravens is a chapter created by Relic especially for DoW series, I think GW agreed that CH did not infringe on many of their most important marks in order to not test them, they probably fear they might lose them if been put to the test.

I am not a lawyer but I got that distinct impression. A lot of the things that got taken down are pretty important to GW but very hard for them to defend (templar's cross, the cog, the inverted omega symbol). I can't see them dropping some of those unless they were worried the ruling would go against them. Better to let CH continue making ultra shoulder pads than to let everyone make them.

Notice however that they got taken down with out prejudice. Meaning GW could come back say 5 years down the line and throw the exact expensive (legal wise) tantrum its throwing now. I see it not as a defeat but rather a tactical retreat on their part, while noble, this lawyers can not be expected to defend CHS pro bono for ever. Thou i am not a lawyer far from it, so it would be nice if some one could confirm.

The only thing they withdrew without prejudice is the hell hound/Hellhound thing. The other stuff has prejudice attached.
Unless I forgot how to read.

That is exactly how I read it - I was starting to think I was the only one. As I understand it, it is only the Hell hound that GW can come back on - the rest is now settled for good.

**xxvaderxx**

fullheadofhair wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
xxvaderxx wrote:
jonolikespie wrote:
PsychoticStorm wrote:
Blood Ravens is a chapter created by Relic especially for DoW series, I think GW agreed that CH did not infringe on many of their most important marks in order to not test them, they probably fear they might lose them if been put to the test.

I am not a lawyer but I got that distinct impression. A lot of the things that got taken down are pretty important to GW but very hard for them to defend (templar's cross, the cog, the inverted omega symbol). I can't see them dropping some of those unless they were worried the ruling would go against them. Better to let CH continue making ultra shoulder pads than to let everyone make them.

Notice however that they got taken down with out prejudice. Meaning GW could come back say 5 years down the line and throw the exact expensive (legal wise) tantrum its throwing now. I see it not as a defeat but rather a tactical retreat on their part, while noble, this lawyers can not be expected to defend CHS pro bono for ever. Thou i am not a lawyer far from it, so it would be nice if some one could confirm.

The only thing they withdrew without prejudice is the hell hound/Hellhound thing. The other stuff has prejudice attached.
Unless I forgot how to read.

That is exactly how I read it - I was starting to think I was the only one. As I understand it, it is only the Hell hound that GW can come back on - the rest is now settled for good.

My bad then, i thought i read it was with out, could and apparently am wrong. If i am, then that is already a significant win.