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ClockworkZion wrote:


Fair enough point. I can't imagine this not hurting at least a bit though considering he took in $400k gross and was putting out $5k between him and his partner.

So we have $25K in their pay a year (collectively) out of $100k each year. Add in taxes, server costs, ect. Even if he has a sort of expense account he's putting extra money into "just in case" I don't see it being all that great for CHS fiscally.

It's not awesome - but, for instance, if the $25K is tax deductible (it would be up here), it could be carried back to previous profitable years. It doesn't totally disappear, but say Chapterhouse LLC's tax rate is 30%, he gets a third knocked off the judgment right there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 poda_t wrote:

czakk wrote:
Heh. Just thought of something. 25k is the small claims limit in my jurisdiction.

what;s your jurisdiction? I think it's $20K in alberta....

Ontario. The 25k award would have terrible cost consequences for GW up here. Forcing a full trial with a jury and not getting more than 100k in damages would mean a massive costs award. But I digress...

ClockworkZion wrote:

 derek wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:

czakk wrote:

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
And so it ends. Not with a bang, for either party, but with a grumble and a lot of settling dust. Will be interesting to see if CHS can avoid bankruptcy.

25k fine with 400k a year in revenues? It's not great, but shouldn't be the end of the world.


Are legal fines tax deductible in the states? Might even be able to carry it back and get some relief that way.

That's his gross, remember he said he was taking in $3,000 a month NET. $25k could be pretty painful when you factor in that it's an additional charge on top of the things he's already paying for (materials, server costs and shipping for example).

That was what he was making for personal income from CHS, with a partner making $2k (iirc). Personal income doesn't necessarily equal out to total business profit per month. It's hard to judge off of just those two things how much the business is actually bringing in over costs, since you generally want to set aside some of that profit to help grow the business.

Fair enough point. I can't imagine this not hurting at least a bit though considering he took in $400k gross (over 4 years) and was putting out $5k between him and his partner (a month).

So we have $25K in their pay a year (collectively) out of $100k each year. Add in taxes, server costs, ect. Even if he has a sort of expense account he's putting extra money into "just in case" I don't see it being all that great for CHS fiscally.

Reviewed his financials have you? What qualifies you to make such a bold statement?

 Sinful Hero wrote:
After following this thread(and reading it) since before I made an account here, it's good to see it finally settled after 165+ pages. Does anyone have any information as to when the final judgement will be known? Or was this the final judgement? It was made to seem to be the jury's verdict.

And, for the legal types, is there generally much difference between the jury's verdict and the final judgement?

I don't think this will change too much. There were loads of sites selling stuff designed to be used with 40k models, they just changed the names. Now they no longer have to change the names...well gosh.

No flame-baiting, please. --Janthkin

 Dysartes wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:
After following this thread(and reading it) since before I made an account here, it's good to see it finally settled after 165+ pages. Does anyone have any information as to when the final judgement will be known? Or was this the final judgement? It was made to seem to be the jury's verdict.

And, for the legal types, is there generally much difference between the jury's verdict and the final judgement?

For starters, I think we still have to wait for the judge to rule on two motions (unless he did it orally, and we missed it). That could change things.

And all this time and effort for $25k is like the NFL winning a dollar in damages from the USFL.

I think paying 25k for a solid 3rd party safe harbour in the US might end up being the deal of a century. But we still need to get the full verdict and the final judgment

 BryllCream wrote:
I don't think this will change too much. There were loads of sites selling stuff designed to be used with 40k models, they just changed the names. Now they no longer have to change the names...well gosh.

I predicted GW would lose on the shoulder pad and the fair use issues, and they did.

They also lost financially, as that money can't really be claimed as "protecting their IP" since they actually lost a lot of what they claimed was theirs.

You can ostrich all you want, GW lost here.

12thRonin wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:

Fair enough point. I can't imagine this not hurting at least a bit though considering he took in $400k gross (over 4 years) and was putting out $5k between him and his partner (a month).

So we have $25K in their pay a year (collectively) out of $100k each year. Add in taxes, server costs, ect. Even if he has a sort of expense account he's putting extra money into "just in case" I don't see it being all that great for CHS fiscally.

Reviewed his financials have you? What qualifies you to make such a bold statement?

I have not. I only have access to the same exact info everyone else in this thread has. Before you go jumping down my throat about something not I was offering an opinion based on limited facts. I never claimed it to be the way it was actually going to be, just how it looks.

AFAIK you can pay judgments for damages over time. And I believe CHS will be getting a lot of people ordering bits now, as support. When GW released the Eldar, and I bought the book, I offset it by ordering the Farseer and Warlock kits from CHS

ClockworkZion wrote:

12thRonin wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:

Fair enough point. I can't imagine this not hurting at least a bit though considering he took in $400k gross (over 4 years) and was putting out $5k between him and his partner (a month).

So we have $25K in their pay a year (collectively) out of $100k each year. Add in taxes, server costs, ect. Even if he has a sort of expense account he's putting extra money into "just in case" I don't see it being all that great for CHS fiscally.

Reviewed his financials have you? What qualifies you to make such a bold statement?

I have not. I only have access to the same exact info everyone else in this thread has. Before you go jumping down my throat about something not I was offering an opinion based on limited facts. I never claimed it to be the way it was actually going to be, just how it looks.

Just trying to figure out what authority you base this opinion on. You have no basis to comment on anything about what it looks like if you have no access to real financials to know the impact (or not) of what $25k would be or how it will be handled. Seem like it's a worthwhile investment knowing exactly where the line is and isn't at this point. It makes marketing and operations a whole lot easier if you don't have to step around what could or could not be trouble.

I wouldn't even call it a win for GW, let alone a glorious one.

Syraphym wrote:
I wouldn't even call it a win for GW, let alone a glorious one.

It's not a win for GW. Nor has it stripped them of their IP. It's irrelevent really to anyone who doesn't shop at Chapterhouse, since GW have already stopped releasing rules without models (a concequence of the case rather than the verdict).

Incidentally, was there a ruling on the Thunderwolf models? I've not really been following the case.

12thRonin wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:

12thRonin wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:

Fair enough point. I can't imagine this not hurting at least a bit though considering he took in $400k gross (over 4 years) and was putting out $5k between him and his partner (a month).

So we have $25K in their pay a year (collectively) out of $100k each year. Add in taxes, server costs, ect. Even if he has a sort of expense account he's putting extra money into "just in case" I don't see it being all that great for CHS fiscally.

Reviewed his financials have you? What qualifies you to make such a bold statement?

I have not. I only have access to the same exact info everyone else in this thread has. Before you go jumping down my throat about something not I was offering an opinion based on limited facts. I never claimed it to be the way it was actually going to be, just how it looks.

Just trying to figure out what authority you base this opinion on. You have no basis to comment on anything about what it looks like if you have no access to real financials to know the impact (or not) of what $25k would be or how it will be handled. Seem like it's a worthwhile investment knowing exactly where the line is and isn't at this point. It makes marketing and operations a whole lot easier if you don't have to step around what could or could not be trouble.

1. Quit appealing to authority if you disagree with me. Just disagree with me straight up so we can all move on with our lives.
2. An opinion doesn't need an official basis. It's an opinion not a fact. Stating that I don't think it looks great for CHS fiscally is my opinion. What actually happens will be fact. Stop making an arguement where there isn't one.
3. You have no more of an idea if that $25k will kill CHS anymore than I do, sure this might make it easier for other companies, but the point of fact was that I didn't see it helping CHS as much if it takes them down fiscally.

And lastly, next time you want to tell me I'm wrong, tell me I'm wrong. I don't appreciate you attacking my lack of credentials for something when I've never put forth a claim that I had them.

Spend hundreds of thousands over the course of several years on expensive lawyers.

Win a very small fraction of the money spent (practically spare change for a company GW's size) and also have your bluff called on several trademark claims.

THIS IS GOOD NEEEEEEEEEWS!

No one was tring to strip GW of their IP - so nothing in the win column for GW for it not happening.

Long time lurker, first time poster in this thread. First off, I'm surprised that CHS didn't win on more of the claims, but as of yet, we don't have all the specific breakdowns of what exactly was won/lost aside from the few that were mentioned. I know overall this is still a win for CHS.

As it is, I see reasons for both sides to file for an appeal, GW more than CHS though. GW lost so much on these rulings that I will be extremely surprised if they don't appeal. CHS doesn't have as much to gain by appealing, but if they could even avoid coughing up $25k they might take that chance (assuming they would get pro bono representation for the appeal as well).

Once the final judgements are made, what sort of time frame would the more knowledgeable people in this thread say that GW/CHS would have in order to comply with the rulings? Will CHS have a chance to do a Doomseer blowout sale or would it be effective immediately that they could no longer sell that particular model? Also, how would either side appealing these decisions affect such things?

[wild speculation&musing]
It would be very interesting if a bunch of 3rd party SM shoulder-pads were to be produced between the end of this trial and the rulings overturned on appeal, thus shutting them down again (3rd party SM shoulder-pads, not CHS).
[/wild speculation&musing]

 BryllCream wrote:

Syraphym wrote:
I wouldn't even call it a win for GW, let alone a glorious one.

It's not a win for GW. Nor has it stripped them of their IP. It's irrelevent really to anyone who doesn't shop at Chapterhouse, since GW have already stopped releasing rules without models (a concequence of the case rather than the verdict).

Incidentally, was there a ruling on the Thunderwolf models? I've not really been following the case.

It's relevant for other bits makers out there - since GW is unlikely to shoot first with C&Ds now, and the line of what's acceptable to courts has been drawn.

I love how £1m is a huge amount of money for GW, but $25k, a quarter of Chapterhouse's yearly revenue, is something they can just shrug off .

In contrast, UBS was fined £160m, ~2% of their yearly revenue, for fixing the LIBOR rates. Chapterhouse has hardly got a slap on the wrist here, even if they get some sort of crowd sourcing thing going.

 Evil Lamp 6 wrote:

As it is, I see reasons for both sides to file for an appeal, GW more than CHS though. GW lost so much on these rulings that I will be extremely surprised if they don't appeal. CHS doesn't have as much to gain by appealing, but if they could even avoid coughing up $25k they might take that chance (assuming they would get pro bono representation for the appeal as well).

IANAL but you can't just go out into the parking lot and shout APPEAAAAAAAAAAL!!!! and expect to get a re-roll. They need good, solid evidence that the court/jury/judge somehow fubar-ed in order to expect their appeal to be taken seriously and previous rulings overturned.

Topic, folks. A jury verdict does not provide a reason for gloating, attacking other posters, or wandering off into new discussions within this thread.

For reference, now that the jury verdict is in, if the Judge was sitting on any judgments as a matter of law, this would be the time he would wheel those out. (Judges often wait until the verdict is in to give the court something to fall back on, if an appellate court overturned the lower court's rulings.)

 BryllCream wrote:
I love how £1m is a huge amount of money for GW, but $25k, a quarter of Chapterhouse's yearly revenue, is something they can just shrug off .

Depending on timeline for payment, tax code, and the simple fact that CH can get a short-term business loan at ridiculous interest rates, $25k very likely is something that can be shrugged off.

Added to that how CH business has just been legitimized and a great deal of uncertainty has been removed from their biz model, not to mention the free advertising they're now gaining by every single 40k fansite tossing this or links to this into the blogosphere, it's hardly like they didn't receive any benefit whatsoever from that spend.

ClockworkZion wrote:


1. Quit appealing to authority if you disagree with me. Just disagree with me straight up so we can all move on with our lives.

I suggest you learn what appeals to authority actually are if you are going to claim them. Your comment here

So we have $25K in their pay a year (collectively) out of $100k each year. Add in taxes, server costs, ect. Even if he has a sort of expense account he's putting extra money into "just in case" I don't see it being all that great for CHS fiscally.

is a fine example of just that. You have no basis for stating what you see.

2. An opinion doesn't need an official basis. It's an opinion not a fact. Stating that I don't think it looks great for CHS fiscally is my opinion. What actually happens will be fact. Stop making an arguement where there isn't one.

If you are stating an opinion as fact, then it does. It was unclear what you were basing that on. It's clear you have no idea what you're talking about now.

3. You have no more of an idea if that $25k will kill CHS anymore than I do, sure this might make it easier for other companies, but the point of fact was that I didn't see it helping CHS as much if it takes them down fiscally.

I made no claim that it would or would not so I have offered no opinion. I know the actions I would take if I were in there stead based on what I know of the case and $25k would be fairly easy to come up with.

And lastly, next time you want to tell me I'm wrong, tell me I'm wrong. I don't appreciate you attacking my lack of credentials for something when I've never put forth a claim that I had them.

If you have no credentials (and you state you have none), there's nothing for me to attack. I don't know if you are wrong. I don't have enough knowledge of their financial position to make a statement. Neither do you.

rigeld2 wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:

Syraphym wrote:
I wouldn't even call it a win for GW, let alone a glorious one.

It's not a win for GW. Nor has it stripped them of their IP. It's irrelevent really to anyone who doesn't shop at Chapterhouse, since GW have already stopped releasing rules without models (a concequence of the case rather than the verdict).

Incidentally, was there a ruling on the Thunderwolf models? I've not really been following the case.

It's relevant for other bits makers out there - since GW is unlikely to shoot first with C&Ds now, and the line of what's acceptable to courts has been drawn.

Personally I don't think that's all that likely. I imagine GW might continue on as they always have, handing C&D notices out to everyone like candy and calling for nothing less than their complete destruction and the surrender of all their property and profits, and bank on the fact that their next victim(s) might not be so lucky as to acquire pro-bono legal aid so that they stand a fighting chance.

I mean is there anything stopping them, really? Even if the result of this case did set precedents and give all third parties a more clear line to avoid crossing GW can still rely on their old bullying tactics and screw people over who can't afford lawyers, can't they? In the end I don't feel that GW "won" this, and hopefully Chapterhouse will come out okay after paying the $25,000, but I'm a cynical melon-fether and I don't see this changing anything but GW's release schedule.

Mmm, melons.

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
And so it ends. Not with a bang, for either party, but with a grumble and a lot of settling dust. Will be interesting to see if CHS can avoid bankruptcy.

Bankruptcy wouldn't matter in the least. Bankruptcy doesn't mean a company disappears or has its assets liquidated. For a business, it can merely mean the company's obligations are restructured. The business in question really doesn't have much in the way of assets for a bankruptcy trustee to determine must be sold to meet an obligation. If CHS did file Ch11, more than likely, GW's award would largely be avoided, and CHS would come out smelling like a rose on the other side.

12thRonin wrote:And all this time and effort for $25k is like the NFL winning a dollar in damages from the USFL.

That's actually backwards the USFL won $1(3) from the NFL, but yes it is like that.
And an excellent reference.

12thRonin wrote:

If you have no credentials (and you state you have none), there's nothing for me to attack. I don't know if you are wrong. I don't have enough knowledge of their financial position to make a statement. Neither do you.

I'm cutting it down to that, just to distill this down as much as possible. I have enough information to make an educated guess. That guess can be completely wrong, but I can make a guess. That's what I did. I have every right to do so, and the fact that you have taken such a great interest in my saying that means you've ignored all the other people who have said the same thing (like BoLS when they put it up). Frankly I'm not the only one thinking this and attacking me over it was frankly stupid. I offered my opinion, based on a small number of facts, that this could hurt CHS as they stand now. If they change something or dump a whole slew of new products online that changes the facts and can offer a new conclusion, but the point is that you attacked me because you disagreed with my layman's assesment instead of just offering a different viewpoint.

This could have been a gentlemen's discussion about our different viewpoints on this and how CHS will react to the cost of the damages but you attacked me and devolved this into something less than that. Congrats, you lessened the potential depth of this conversation to that of a mud puddle.

 BryllCream wrote:
I love how £1m is a huge amount of money for GW, but $25k, a quarter of Chapterhouse's yearly revenue, is something they can just shrug off .

?

No one is saying that $1,000,000 is a "lot of money" for GW. We're saying it was a bad investment for them to spend that much money to only get an award of $25,000.

They could have instead have worked out a licensing agreement with CHS and actually made money on the situation and gained a degree of control over CHS's work.

GW can still pass out C&D's like candy and hope their opponenets buckle, but now they have to measure the risk verses reward ratio more closely.

What's the point of putting some garage operation out of buissiness if it's costs 1000 times more in legal fees than actual lost revenue ?

Saldiven wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:
I love how £1m is a huge amount of money for GW, but $25k, a quarter of Chapterhouse's yearly revenue, is something they can just shrug off .

?

No one is saying that $1,000,000 is a "lot of money" for GW. We're saying it was a bad investment for them to spend that much money to only get an award of $25,000.

They could have instead have worked out a licensing agreement with CHS and actually made money on the situation and gained a degree of control over CHS's work.

Sending a nice clear message to people that if they get successful enough at piggy backing GW's IP, they'll be rewarded with a partnership deal? From GW's point of view they're trying to stop CHS from profitting off GW's intellectual property. You don't offer a partnership to the dude who stole your tv, do you? This is how GW would see it...please do not flame me