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Remember, three years ago GW's idea of a 'merry Christmas' was to send their legal threats on Christmas Eve. Ho ho ho!

The court summons was certainly the best stocking stuffer I got that year.

 paulson games wrote:
The court summons was certainly the best stocking stuffer I got that year.

WOW, I thought my gifts were bad...

 paulson games wrote:
The court summons was certainly the best stocking stuffer I got that year.

To be fair, you were on GW's incomprehensibly convoluted naughty list.

Pity they didn't check their list twice before filing suit.

 Janthkin wrote:
Pity they didn't check their list twice before filing suit.

I'm not confident they checked it once even.

It looked more like:

"Who makes models?"
"Other people"
"SUE THEM!!!"
"Ok, in the meantime we'll pretend to our customers that other people don't make models"

 Janthkin wrote:
Pity they didn't check their list twice before filing suit.

They didn't care to check their actual copyrights, they didn't care to check that Paulson has nothing to do with Chapterhouse. So yeah, they just rage-sue..

 Aerethan wrote:

 Janthkin wrote:
Pity they didn't check their list twice before filing suit.

I'm not confident they checked it once even.

It looked more like:

"Who makes models?"
"Other people"
"SUE THEM!!!"
"Ok, in the meantime we'll pretend to our customers that other people don't make models"

Do you mind clarifying your viewpoint for me - do you think that there should be no such thing as intellectual property, or do you think that gw shouldn't be able to take people to court who've broken the law?

I haven't seen gw sue Bolt Action or Warmahordes - argueably their biggest competitors - only the websites who seem to consciously and exclusively leech off GW's ip for profit.

xruslanx wrote:

 Aerethan wrote:

 Janthkin wrote:
Pity they didn't check their list twice before filing suit.

I'm not confident they checked it once even.

It looked more like:

"Who makes models?"
"Other people"
"SUE THEM!!!"
"Ok, in the meantime we'll pretend to our customers that other people don't make models"

Do you mind clarifying your viewpoint for me - do you think that there should be no such thing as intellectual property, or do you think that gw shouldn't be able to take people to court who've broken the law?

I haven't seen gw sue Bolt Action or Warmahordes - argueably their biggest competitors - only the websites who seem to consciously and exclusively leech off GW's ip for profit.

Well, Warlord Games and Privateer Press are both companies that have the resources with which to defend themselves and maintain relationships with former GW employees.

If you want to know GW's perspective on IP enforcement, just look at the most recent annual report:

Breach of intellectual property (IP) and counterfeit products. The risk is that we lose control of our IP and thus other people can take our
market. There are two ways we mitigate this risk: product quality and IP protection. Product quality is the best defence. Our miniatures are
of extraordinary detail and have very high costs associated with their production. We do the tooling and manufacturing here in Nottingham
to ensure that quality. As it happens, even if we wanted to tool or manufacture elsewhere, we have never found anyone who can deliver
the quality we need at the price we pay. In order to be able to duplicate that quality requires a level of capital investment that no one has,
as yet, even tried to emulate. This also deals with the risk of counterfeit products. The few that are made are of poor quality and do not
appeal to our customers.

Should that change, or we meet intransigent small infringers, we have copyright, trademark and passing off law to protect our imagery and
we have never been shy of using legal redress if needed. Our legal department deals with dozens of cases each year with satisfactory
results.

The scale upon which we do business is the biggest defence against this threat. The cases we deal with (and there are dozens each year)
are nearly all single individuals or small businesses who ‘cease and desist’ as soon as they get the letter. Those who don’t should be
stopped more because we need to ensure everyone knows we are serious about defending our IP rather than because of the immediate
threat of damage to our profits.

So, GW's best and most important defense, allegedly, is simply to make the best products out there. This is called fair competition, and that's great! You want to be the best, make the best product. More power to you. Mind you that companies like Chapterhouse Studios sell products at higher prices than the nearest GW equivalent (to the extent that there is one), leading one to infer that any market for those products is based on quality/different aesthetics, i.e. fair competition.

So, when GW is confronted with "individuals and small businesses" producing higher quality, artistically different, more expensive products, GW threatens to sue and the "small infringers" "cease and desist as soon as they get the letter" because the scale at which GW does business dwarfs theirs and they consequently cannot stand up to such threats, unlike companies like Warlord and Privateer Press.

That is bald-faced IP bullying in its purest form: Sue individuals and small companies because they are too weak to resist in order to control the market, even though such companies do not cause one iota of harm to GW's bottom line, as Mr. Kirby has made abundantly clear in his above-quoted statement.

Testify!

Well said weeble.

I look forward to joey testify BryllCream xruslanx's response.

And by the way, "The cases we deal with (and there are dozens each year) are nearly all single individuals or small businesses who ‘cease and desist’ as soon as they get the letter," is an oblique reference to Chapterhouse Studios, which, unlike other "intransigent small infringers" did not "cease and desist as soon as they [got] the letter," causing GW to dig itself a 7 figure hole that is getting deeper every day.

 Alpharius wrote:
Testify!

Well said weeble.

I look forward to joey testify BryllCream xruslanx's response.

And here I was about to ask weeble why he didn't just laugh at his post and walk away form the Troll/Fanboy. Guess the answer is sometime it fun to point and laugh.

Noir wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Testify!

Well said weeble.

I look forward to joey testify BryllCream xruslanx's response.

And here I was about to ask weeble why he didn't just laugh at his post and walk away form the Troll/Fanboy. Guess the answer is sometime it fun to point and laugh.

Well, the answer was so readily available thanks to Mr. Kirby. He has gone a long way towards alleviating these sorts of discussions. That statement of his is not terribly ambiguous, and I have no earthly idea why he put it in the financial report. I mean, that is the only communication about the CHS case that GW has ever done excepting announcing its settlement with Paulson Games.

Plus, it's good to turn back to this subject every now and again, lest folks forget. I appreciate xruslanx's request for clarification on this point.

weeble1000 wrote:

xruslanx wrote:

 Aerethan wrote:

 Janthkin wrote:
Pity they didn't check their list twice before filing suit.

I'm not confident they checked it once even.

It looked more like:

"Who makes models?"
"Other people"
"SUE THEM!!!"
"Ok, in the meantime we'll pretend to our customers that other people don't make models"

Do you mind clarifying your viewpoint for me - do you think that there should be no such thing as intellectual property, or do you think that gw shouldn't be able to take people to court who've broken the law?

I haven't seen gw sue Bolt Action or Warmahordes - argueably their biggest competitors - only the websites who seem to consciously and exclusively leech off GW's ip for profit.

Well, Warlord Games and Privateer Press are both companies that have the resources with which to defend themselves and maintain relationships with former GW employees.

If you want to know GW's perspective on IP enforcement, just look at the most recent annual report:

Breach of intellectual property (IP) and counterfeit products. The risk is that we lose control of our IP and thus other people can take our
market. There are two ways we mitigate this risk: product quality and IP protection. Product quality is the best defence. Our miniatures are
of extraordinary detail and have very high costs associated with their production. We do the tooling and manufacturing here in Nottingham
to ensure that quality. As it happens, even if we wanted to tool or manufacture elsewhere, we have never found anyone who can deliver
the quality we need at the price we pay. In order to be able to duplicate that quality requires a level of capital investment that no one has,
as yet, even tried to emulate. This also deals with the risk of counterfeit products. The few that are made are of poor quality and do not
appeal to our customers.

Should that change, or we meet intransigent small infringers, we have copyright, trademark and passing off law to protect our imagery and
we have never been shy of using legal redress if needed. Our legal department deals with dozens of cases each year with satisfactory
results.

The scale upon which we do business is the biggest defence against this threat. The cases we deal with (and there are dozens each year)
are nearly all single individuals or small businesses who ‘cease and desist’ as soon as they get the letter. Those who don’t should be
stopped more because we need to ensure everyone knows we are serious about defending our IP rather than because of the immediate
threat of damage to our profits.

So, GW's best and most important defense, allegedly, is simply to make the best products out there. This is called fair competition, and that's great! You want to be the best, make the best product. More power to you. Mind you that companies like Chapterhouse Studios sell products at higher prices than the nearest GW equivalent (to the extent that there is one), leading one to infer that any market for those products is based on quality/different aesthetics, i.e. fair competition.

So, when GW is confronted with "individuals and small businesses" producing higher quality, artistically different, more expensive products, GW threatens to sue and the "small infringers" "cease and desist as soon as they get the letter" because the scale at which GW does business dwarfs theirs and they consequently cannot stand up to such threats, unlike companies like Warlord and Privateer Press.

That is bald-faced IP bullying in its purest form: Sue individuals and small companies because they are too weak to resist in order to control the market, even though such companies do not cause one iota of harm to GW's bottom line, as Mr. Kirby has made abundantly clear in his above-quoted statement.

I don't understand - you think GW should consciously allow other companies to make money by selling miniatures that infringe on gw's ip? Does your thinking apply to all ip law, or just gw?

Your argument seems to be that gw is wrong because they're big, and chs are right because they're small...despite that the judge saying that the only reason the case is continueing (iirc) was Chapterhouse's lawyers trying to save face. CHS has been caught out breaking the law and the fact that the party which bought this to court happens to be big, doesn't make what they did right.

weeble1000 wrote:
Well, Warlord Games and Privateer Press are both companies that have the resources with which to defend themselves and maintain relationships with former GW employees.

Just a small observation about PP though, most of the former GW staff that used to work for them don't work for them anymore. The last time I was over there about a month ago, I didn't see any ex-GW staff. None that I knew of at least.

I also noticed that after working for both companies, from my observations, there seem to be far more disgruntled ex-PP staff than ex-GW staff. Ex-PP staff that I know and still talk to seem to be far more angry at PP than the people I know that used to work at GW. A lot of ex-PP staff just don't talk about PP, it's almost like they want to forget it from ever happening.

Most of the guys I know that used to work at GW still play GW games and buy their models and are very active in the gaming community. I only know of one guy that used to work at PP that still plays PP games and that's because he gets his stuff for free, a friend of his at PP uses his employee comp to get him stuff. That's just an observation from me though.

weeble1000 wrote:
And by the way, "The cases we deal with (and there are dozens each year) are nearly all single individuals or small businesses who ‘cease and desist’ as soon as they get the letter," is an oblique reference to Chapterhouse Studios, which, unlike other "intransigent small infringers" did not "cease and desist as soon as they [got] the letter," causing GW to dig itself a 7 figure hole that is getting deeper every day.

Do we know who those "dozens" of companies are? DO they really send out that many C&Ds each year? Or is that just GW posturing for their shareholders?

xruslanx wrote:
Do you mind clarifying your viewpoint for me - do you think that there should be no such thing as intellectual property, or do you think that gw shouldn't be able to take people to court who've broken the law?

I haven't seen gw sue Bolt Action or Warmahordes - argueably their biggest competitors - only the websites who seem to consciously and exclusively leech off GW's ip for profit.

GW has every right to go after companies that legitimately infringe on their IP rights.

However, GW is the company that took Paulson Games to court over a model that Paulson did not make, did not sell, and had nothing whatsoever to do with in any way.

GW is also the company that sent a takedown notice to Amazon because an author had published a book that used the name 'Space Marine'.

And lets not forget that GW is the company that has for at least a decade now claimed on their own legal information page that converting their models is an infringement of their IP...

This is not a company that is in any way in touch with reality.

xruslanx wrote:
I don't understand - you think GW should consciously allow other companies to make money by selling miniatures that infringe on gw's ip? Does your thinking apply to all ip law, or just gw?

No, he's not saying that at all. Take off your white armor.

Your argument seems to be that gw is wrong because they're big, and chs are right because they're small...despite that the judge saying that the only reason the case is continueing (iirc) was Chapterhouse's lawyers trying to save face. CHS has been caught out breaking the law and the fact that the party which bought this to court happens to be big, doesn't make what they did right.

Which side was it that was sanctioned for essentially lying? Which side was it that (likely deliberately) provided the incorrect instructions to the court for the injunction?

GW was wrong on ~70% of the things they asserted. One could probably bring an IP infringement lawsuit from any company to any related company and get "lucky" with a third of the things you claim you own.

xruslanx wrote:
I don't understand - you think GW should consciously allow other companies to make money by selling miniatures that infringe on gw's ip? Does your thinking apply to all ip law, or just gw?

We had this discussion dozens of times before in this thread.
Short answer is that
1.) GW forgot to steal the IP first before sueing, so they had to do it a year after the lawsuit began, but the artist copyright holders were clever enough to make this theft attempt public.
2.) Grenade launchers, fur, skulls, arrows etc. are NOT GW IP, even when they claim it. People should be allowed to use sculpts of grenade launchers, fur, skulls, arrows etc without paying GW.

 Kroothawk wrote:

xruslanx wrote:
I don't understand - you think GW should consciously allow other companies to make money by selling miniatures that infringe on gw's ip? Does your thinking apply to all ip law, or just gw?

We had this discussion dozens of times before in this thread.
Short answer is that
1.) GW forgot to steal the IP first before sueing, so they had to do it a year after the lawsuit began, but the artist copyright holders were clever enough to make this theft attempt public.
2.) Grenade launchers, fur, skulls, arrows etc. are NOT GW IP, even when they claim it. People should be allowed to use sculpts of grenade launchers, fur, skulls, arrows etc without paying GW.

X doesn't seem to understand that a company actually needs to OWN the IP in question before having a legitimate reason to sue over potential infringement.

 insaniak wrote:

xruslanx wrote:
Do you mind clarifying your viewpoint for me - do you think that there should be no such thing as intellectual property, or do you think that gw shouldn't be able to take people to court who've broken the law?

I haven't seen gw sue Bolt Action or Warmahordes - argueably their biggest competitors - only the websites who seem to consciously and exclusively leech off GW's ip for profit.

GW has every right to go after companies that legitimately infringe on their IP rights.

However, GW is the company that took Paulson Games to court over a model that Paulson did not make, did not sell, and had nothing whatsoever to do with in any way.

GW is also the company that sent a takedown notice to Amazon because an author had published a book that used the name 'Space Marine'.

And lets not forget that GW is the company that has for at least a decade now claimed on their own legal information page that converting their models is an infringement of their IP...

This is not a company that is in any way in touch with reality.

I know nothing about Paulson Games or Amazon...and they are not the subjects of this thread. This thread is about CHS, who have been found by a jury of peers to be infringing on GW's IP, with injunctions prohibiting the sale of items and a 25k fine.

I honestly think it's unfair to critisise gw for being too over-zealous when it comes to defending their ip when there are so many companies and people who *do* infringe on it. Just because gw was stupid for trying to stop Spots the Space Marine, it doesn't mean it's okay to steal gw's ip for profit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Saldiven wrote:

X doesn't seem to understand that a company actually needs to OWN the IP in question before having a legitimate reason to sue over potential infringement.

So...the jury in this case was wrong? Seems like a no-brainer for an appeal then. Actually, how did it get to a jury verdict if GW never owned their ip in the first place?

xruslanx wrote:
Do you mind clarifying your viewpoint for me - do you think that there should be no such thing as intellectual property, or do you think that gw shouldn't be able to take people to court who've broken the law?

I haven't seen gw sue Bolt Action or Warmahordes - argueably their biggest competitors - only the websites who seem to consciously and exclusively leech off GW's ip for profit.

Too add to what others have said, Warmachine/Hordes are extremely different in terms of IP, and just because they are competitors they both have different products. Games Workshop does not produce a skirmish level steampunk game in which a single general leads several steampowered machines and a retinue of infantry against an opponent blah blah blah. And PP would never go after GW for similar reasons. They both make table top games, but PP is self-described as a game company that makes models for their game and GW is self-described as a model company that makes a game for their models.

Bolt Action (made by Warlord) uses Osprey Publishing's artwork and is in the very, very, very open world of World War 2 miniatures, of which no one can claim IP ownership. GW has no reason to go after them, nor would they need to as again, both companies do two totally different things. Also, Bolt Action is small in the world of non-collectible minature games. The Top 5 companies on average are GW, PP, Wyrd, Battlefront and with the addition of X-Wing, FFG

The people that you are talking about consciously and exclusively leeching off GW's IP for profit are people who make various pieces for use with Games Workshop models. Yes, some of the pieces go a little too far (like the Space Elf Doomseer), but most of these companies make pieces in 1 of 2 ways.
1) Aftermarket parts: Shoulder Pads, head swaps, accessories (backpacks, weapons, etc...). These fit 28mm heroic scale models, and allow users to change the look of their army and still play the game they love. Often times these bits require you to own a GW model to place the bit on to, so GW isn't losing sales.
2) Genre specific models: These are things like Hi-Tech Minatures ArchFather Proturbo, leader of the Iron Giants. These are models made by companies that offer alternative choices for people to use as cool looking special characters, display pieces, etc...

These are both fair uses because the first is aftermarket pieces similar to buying aftermarket parts for a car, bike, etc... Generic enough that they can be used by anyone for the product and don't infringe on the product itself (which is why GW tried to get the geometric shape of their shoulderpads under copyright so that no one could use them, they failed in this btw).

Also, Paulson Games is prevalent to the discussion because he was part of the initial lawsuit that started this thread. And it serves as a good example that GW C&Ds first and checks the facts later.

Boy, I sure am loving all this off topic discussion in here! Wasn't the last update something about CHS lawyers holding on to the molds?

xruslanx wrote:
Seems like a no-brainer for an appeal then. Actually, how did it get to a jury verdict if GW never owned their ip in the first place?

I am going to return to this quote in the future.

Paulson Games is part of this thread. It and John Paulson were named in the original complaint and are indeed still named defendants on the case.

If you are going to act like you understand the issues being discussed, at least get your facts correct. Your argument is premised on GW infallibly identifying violations of its rights and pursuing only such claims.

Again, this is demonstrably incorrect. GW used its relative size to bring more than 100 claims against a small company that were either dismissed by the court prior to trial or found against by a jury. Arguably, GW made those claims because most of its targets "cease and desist as soon as they get the letter," not that GW sent CHS a C&D, by the way, opting instead to file a lawsuit on December 22nd.

Doing that is arguably incredibly inappropriate and event potentially actionable, though the bar is incredibly high on malicious litigation, abuse of process, and other such torts.

And more importantly, GW accused every CHS product, so if CHS had ceased and desisted "as soon as they got the letter," we know now that a manifest injustice would have resulted as more than 100 of said products may be fairly and legally produced and sold.

xruslanx wrote:
Do you mind clarifying your viewpoint for me - do you think that there should be no such thing as intellectual property, or do you think that gw shouldn't be able to take people to court who've broken the law?

The problem is that GW does not bother to limit themselves to the law, or anything resembling it. Dark Reign received Cease and Desist notices from GW despite the fact that we were very much PROTECTED under the law.

xruslanx wrote:

So...the jury in this case was wrong? Seems like a no-brainer for an appeal then. Actually, how did it get to a jury verdict if GW never owned their ip in the first place?

Juries being wrong is not unknown, actually. It has happened in the past where the jury failed to understand something, or the 'facts' as the jury was told them were not fact at all.

GW adopted the shotgun approach in this case, claiming that everything and anything was in violation in the hopes that a few items were close enough that they could make something stick. They could quite easily do the same thing with Reaper, etc, because GW's designs are generic enough that almost every mini company out there has something that looks similar 'enough' to get a jury to find a few minis in violation. They don't sue them, however, because those companies have legal reps of their own, and could, and would, likely, fight back with counter suits.

Nope. We're done. Any further discussion that I deem off-topic, in my sole discretion, will result in an account suspension. Only warning.

xruslanx wrote:
I know nothing about Paulson Games or Amazon...and they are not the subjects of this thread. This thread is about CHS, who have been found by a jury of peers to be infringing on GW's IP, with injunctions prohibiting the sale of items and a 25k fine.

I honestly think it's unfair to critisise gw for being too over-zealous when it comes to defending their ip when there are so many companies and people who *do* infringe on it.

I was named in the lawsuit by GW as being the designer for the SAW walker, and supposedly being a partner with Chapterhouse. Both of which are things that I had no connection to whatsoever, a 5 minute google search would have indicated who created that model and saved GW tens of thousands of dollars.

Furthermore GW never attempted to contact me, much less send a cease and desist notice. Instead of cross checking for any actual facts they instead decided to mash the "sue now" button and take me directly to court without any indication that there was even a grievance brewing. Even when informed of their mistake and that I had no connection with Chapterhouse they dragged their heels for over a year simply to run up the legal time clock and add to the bills, that way they could impose as many legal costs as possible against my company even when they KNEW I had nothing to do with Chapterhouse.

So they intentionally use the big stick of legal action to try and run smaller companies out of business, even if they have no legal basis. Because of their size they can afford to push another company into court and flounder around and delay as long as possible in effort to cause legal bills to pile up to the point it bankrupts the company, regardless of the claim being valid or not. GW does not need an actual "win" in the eyes of the law/court if they can bankrupt their opposition in the process.

I was on the receiving end of this very law suit because GW made completely false allegations of my company being connected to CH, so it's not simply a case that GW will only sue lawbreakers. They bend the legal system as much as they possibly can in order to undermine other companies. They made a number of false claims when filing the initial suit and several more under oath. If that isn't deplorable and intentional abuse of the legal system I don't know what is.



And for the record I was not found to be part of any infringement, yet GW still attempted to sue me. So the claim that GW only sues guilty people holds absolutely no water.

So Paulson, did you incur any cost as a result of this litigation? Or do you have recourse for impromper use of litigation?

This docket entry was made by the Clerk on Tuesday, December 17, 2013:
MINUTE entry before the Honorable Matthew F. Kennelly: Motion to amend/correct [466] is terminated as moot based upon the parties' stipulation. The hearing set for 12/17/2013 is vacated.

Now we are back to waiting for the appeal to be filed.

 gunslingerpro wrote:
So Paulson, did you incur any cost as a result of this litigation? Or do you have recourse for impromper use of litigation?

There were significant costs, but it's certainly much less than what CH has dealt with. I was dropped from the suit before all the pre-trial work and depositions started which is where the bulk of the legal hours accrue. But they did keep me tied up with my lawyer for well over a year, when it was a situation that could have been resolved very quickly. (or avoided entirely had they done 5 min of facts checking)

Besides simple legal fees there's a secondary loss in the fact that the GW fanboy base withdraws their business as they see things as being found in contempt of GW and therefore being somehow toxic. There was a very sharp drop in business once suit was filed and that didn't come back even when I was removed some the case. So like I'd mentioned before GW doesn't need to win in court to get their desired goals. They bury you in bills and then the fan base shuns you which further eats away at the financial stability of the business.

While it wasn't enough to put my company under per say it did have an sizeable impact. The other major area that most people don't consider is the stress and emotional cost as it's not something you can measure in black and white terms. I got into doing miniatures because I love gaming and I love the creative process of making models. Lawsuits end up dominating and consuming your whole life, you might be functioning but your mind is always stressed and on the case and you need to devote a ton of additional time to dealing with your lawyer and reviewing materials etc. Regardless of if you win or lose it still takes a heavy toll.

I've found my personal enjoyment of gaming and hobby work greatly reduced as a result of the case and that's not something measureable in terms of money. As an artist I need to be passionate about my work and when you get that passion all but ground out of you it's very hard to reignite that creative spark and get back into the same mental groove that allowed you to be where you were before. I used to be an avid gamer and now I barely touch any games let alone anything GW related, it altered a lot of my gaming and artistic interests which has had a very big impact on the type of drive and mindset that I approach projects with. (It's not all negative but it's certainly different than how it previously was).

That's why there's laws in place allowing people to counter sue in cases of legal bullying or frivolous legal action. The damage that's done is usually far beyond just the dollar amount of the trials due to loss of business and emotional strain. The unfortunate aspect is that in most cases in order to counter sue you need to have judge dismiss the case or you have to fight it all the way through and be found clear of every claim. Settling and being removed from the case unfortunately doesn't meet that criteria. In CH's case they have a difficult challenge as they have hundreds of items that were in dispute and if they were found to be infringing on even just one item it can basically render them incapable of counter suit, which is why firms typically employ the everything and kitchen sink approach. You throw everything you can in the complaint hoping that you can get even one item to stick.

The secondary problem is that in order to counter sue that means you have to go through the process of having an entirely separate trial in addition to the one you just sat through, which means you can spend years if not a decade or more tied up in court, (when you consider both trials) which is a very exhausting process. Often the amounts you could get out of winning a counter suit aren't worth the personal toll it costs in order to pursue trying to recoup on legal costs. Also that second trial much like the first trial is not something that you can predict the results of, you could go in thinking you have a slam dunk counter-case only to get shot down by a unpredicted result from the jury.

Even after all of that if you win in court you still don't exactly "win" as the amount of effort makes it more a pyrrhic victory than a win that will make up for all the lost sales and lost time and stress.

I do feel for what Nick has been going through as it's much more extreme than what I've had to deal with. It does irritate me when people are quick to judge the case as it's incredible complex and they very rarely take into consideration what it means on a personal level to those that are involved. Lawsuits are not fun and games and I wouldn't wish them on anyone.


.