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Some countries have laws ( I think atleast in the US ) that require companies to fight for their IP or they will lose the "seriousness" of their IP ownership in the eyes of law. Does anyone know if such laws exist with this case?

As in, if company X did nothing for ages when company Y plagiated/stole/whatever their IP, X could potentially lose the right to hold on to their IP or for the least, severely hamper any attempts at copyright claims in the future.

 RunicFIN wrote:
Some countries have laws ( I think atleast in the US ) that require companies to fight for their IP or they will lose the "seriousness" of their IP ownership in the eyes of law. Does anyone know if such laws exist with this case?

As in, if company X did nothing for ages when company Y plagiated/stole/whatever their IP, X could potentially lose the right to hold on to their IP or for the least, severely hamper any attempts at copyright claims in the future.

There is some general truth to that, but isn't really applicable to this particular case. GW was attempting to assert ownership of certain concepts that in many cases they couldn't prove ownership, and in many other cases were things that were patently absurd (like saying they owned Roman numerals and chevrons). In other cases they tried to assert that a creation of theirs in one medium (a two dimensional picture) somehow resulted in ownership of anything inspired by that picture in any other medium. They also asserted ownership of "ideas" on their own, not "expressions of ideas," which is what IP law actually protects.

A company does need to make good faith efforts to protect their intellectual property. In this case, many of GW's efforts at protection were nothing resembling good faith. Additionally, there are many ways they could have attempted to pursue this effort at protection other than filing a lawsuit with the stated purpose to shut down the company; some of those ways would have actually strengthened their future claims far more than having CHS go out of business. For example, if they had worked out a license agreement with CHS to use certain trademarks, then GW would have made some money, and the existence of that license agreement would serve to enhance the strength of GW's mark because it would be an example of other companies recognizing and acknowledging GW's mark.

(Weeble, czakk, et al., please feel free to correct my understanding if it's not accurate. My knowledge of IP law pretty much consists of what I've learned from people like y'all while following this case for the past 3+ years.)

 agnosto wrote:

weeble1000 wrote:
But I think it is a pretty good indication that the parties are not in productive settlement discussions.

Which begs the question, what's taking so long? I certainly hope that at some point a judge somewhere would step in and say enough is enough, let's get this done. No wonder so many people disparage our judicial system.

Court's don't usually care if things drag out when it isn't adversely impacting their docket. Besides, things take a long time in litigation. There hasn't been any motion practice at the appellate court. There has, however, been some action with the lower court. The appeal isn't going to go forward until this issue is resolved, and apparently there is a hearing on October 23rd.

09/17/2014 495 CITATION to Discover Assets issued as to Chapterhouse Studios LLC. (Attachments: # 1 Notice)(jh, ) (Entered: 09/18/2014)
09/24/2014 496 MINUTE entry before the Honorable Jeffrey T. Gilbert: All matters relating to the referral of this matter having been resolved, this case is returned to the District Judge. Referral terminated. Mailed notice (ber, ) (Entered: 09/24/2014)
10/10/2014 501 MINUTE entry before the Honorable Matthew F. Kennelly: The joint motion to reset the citation proceeding 497 is granted; the date for the citation proceeding is reset to 10/23/2014 at 9:30 a.m. The motion to withdraw the appearance of Julianne Hartzell as attorney is also granted. (mk) (Entered: 10/10/2014)

This is what is going on right now:

JOINT MOTION TO RESET CITATION PROCEEDING
Plaintiff Games Workshop Limited (“GW”) and Chapterhouse Studios LLC
(“Chapterhouse”) jointly state as follows:
1. On September 17, 2014, GW filed a Citation to Discover Assets against Chapterhouse.
Pursuant to the Citation, Chapterhouse is producing documents by October 8, 2014 and
was to appear in this court on October 14, 2014, at 9:30 a.m. for Examination. Further,
pursuant to the Citation, except for certain exempt assets, Chapterhouse is prohibited
from making or allowing any transfer or other disposition of its assets.
2. GW has agreed to lift the Citations’ asset freeze for the sole purpose of permitting
Chapterhouse to fund travel from Texas to Chicago for its operator, Nick Villacci, to
allow for his Examination.
3. In order to permit Mr. Villacci to travel more economically, GW and Chapterhouse
jointly agree to reset the Citation proceeding for October 23, 2014, at 9:30 a.m

Freeze your assets so you can't earn money, require you to fly across country to be "examined"; quite possibly something that could have been accomplished via mail/electronic communication. Truly our system of juris prudence is antiquated.

 agnosto wrote:
Freeze your assets so you can't earn money, require you to fly across country to be "examined"; quite possibly something that could have been accomplished via mail/electronic communication. Truly our system of juris prudence is antiquated.

As others like czakk have articulated, both parties have rights.

There are equitable issues at work in this particular situation, but a party has to articulate those, which requires time, money, and counsel. Any equitable circumstances at work would be exceptions to the rule, rather than the rule itself, e.g. normally things would go one way, but in this case doing that would result in irreparable harm/injustice/etc. The good news is that Chapterhouse Studios has pro-bono counsel. That doesn't stop the company losing money because its assets are frozen and it cannot conduct business, but it does mean that Chapterhouse has the ability to respond.

Now, I definitely do not think this frees GW from much deserved scorn and derision. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should do something. Hopefully we will see a just result from all of this, and one that has a broader impact than Chapterhouse Studios. That will be the ultimate value in this litigation, and I think it behooves us as a community to never forget the contribution Chapterhouse Studios has made to it. When this thing is all said and done, and hopefully with a result that sets some good precedent protecting the work of artists in this industry, we shouldn't forget about Nick VIllacci having to fly back up to Chicago to unfreeze his assets.

There's a stiff cost to all of this, above and beyond the costs paid by pro-bono counsel. GW is trying to crush Chapterhouse Studios, and even if Chapterhouse is an entity in and of itself, there's a human component to it.

How ironic, most people's assets start to freeze in Chicago around this time most years.

Joking aside, you're quite right, for this case to go any more GW's way than it already has is somewhat unconscionable in regard to the wider implications. I have been a CHS customer, and I pledged to the KS for no reward because I appreciate that he has drawn a line in the sand, and that should be applauded and supported.

The legal precedent that most of what Chapterhouse did is perfectly legal will stand even if CHS goes out of business here. Putting CHS under doesn't benefit GW except as a victory for moral.

It would really be a shame if we lose CHS over this. I hope that's not the way things go.

At this point I do hope that we lose GW over this.

Really - I can no longer see myself buying anything from them, even if they drop their prices, fix their rules, and balance their armies.

This puts them cleanly in the 'I will not buy from them' category.

The Auld Grump

I just talked to Nick about this, mine being an order in Limbo. On the up side, the hearing is the 23rd.

I also mentioned to him that the Russian recasters on Ebay are having a field day while CHS is down, and suggest he seek punitive damages from GW's freeze costing him legitimate sales of goods not effected by the judgment.

TheAuldGrump wrote:At this point I do hope that we lose GW over this.

Really - I can no longer see myself buying anything from them, even if they drop their prices, fix their rules, and balance their armies.

This puts them cleanly in the 'I will not buy from them' category.

The Auld Grump

I was thinking of buying something from GW. Now I am thinking really hard if I should be doing it or not.

Davor wrote:

I was thinking of buying something from GW. Now I am thinking really hard if I should be doing it or not.

Plenty of other games out there.

Images snipped. Let's not fill up the thread with OT pictures, please. --Janthkin

weeble1000 wrote:

 agnosto wrote:
Freeze your assets so you can't earn money, require you to fly across country to be "examined"; quite possibly something that could have been accomplished via mail/electronic communication. Truly our system of juris prudence is antiquated.

As others like czakk have articulated, both parties have rights.

There are equitable issues at work in this particular situation, but a party has to articulate those, which requires time, money, and counsel. Any equitable circumstances at work would be exceptions to the rule, rather than the rule itself, e.g. normally things would go one way, but in this case doing that would result in irreparable harm/injustice/etc. The good news is that Chapterhouse Studios has pro-bono counsel. That doesn't stop the company losing money because its assets are frozen and it cannot conduct business, but it does mean that Chapterhouse has the ability to respond.

Now, I definitely do not think this frees GW from much deserved scorn and derision. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should do something. Hopefully we will see a just result from all of this, and one that has a broader impact than Chapterhouse Studios. That will be the ultimate value in this litigation, and I think it behooves us as a community to never forget the contribution Chapterhouse Studios has made to it. When this thing is all said and done, and hopefully with a result that sets some good precedent protecting the work of artists in this industry, we shouldn't forget about Nick VIllacci having to fly back up to Chicago to unfreeze his assets.

There's a stiff cost to all of this, above and beyond the costs paid by pro-bono counsel. GW is trying to crush Chapterhouse Studios, and even if Chapterhouse is an entity in and of itself, there's a human component to it.

I understand the equity issue; however, I fail to see how seizing his assets will achieve the end that the plaintiff desires if the defendant is unable to earn money to pay the judgement, unless of course you're inferring that a one-man operation as small as Nick's has $25k in assets to seize. No, I believe that the "system" has been created in such a way as to penalize small businesses and reward organizations who bring suite, win a relatively small judgement and then find other "legal" ways of achieving their ends via delay and stall tactics that drag out the final results of an appeal. The longer this goes on, it will only benefit GW while Chapterhouse ends up losing customers by being silent and unable to perform commerce.

My question here is if Nick will have legal recourse if the end result of the appeal is such that he is exonerated; my gut tells me no which means GW still wins because they've effectively created an environment whereby they may still achieve their ends, even if they lose the majority of their claims. I'll profess my ignorance here of how this all works but this is how it appears to me as a layperson.

Mentioned the freezing assets on Warseer's thread about CHS v. GW. Someone replied to my stating that it sounded like an underhanded tactic by saying that maybe it's GW just trying to protect what's owed to them by the judgment.

people will defend anything GW does.

WayneTheGame wrote:
Mentioned the freezing assets on Warseer's thread about CHS v. GW. Someone replied to my stating that it sounded like an underhanded tactic by saying that maybe it's GW just trying to protect what's owed to them by the judgment.

people will defend anything GW does.

Well you don't get to examine a debtor until after they have failed to pay you the money you owe. Freezing assets prior to the examination is meant to protect what is owed. They won't be frozen forever (although they might end up seized to pay the debt down the road as a result of the examination).


Perhaps the settlement conference didn't work out and that's why they've started the collection process. I'll keep a closer eye on pacer for a court order restarting the appeals process.

So if, hypothetically, Chapterhouse were to "win" their appeal and have all or nearly all of the rest go GW's infringement claims dismissed by the court, would they get their 25K back?

I know that won't help CH with the loss of money while their assets are frozen; I'm just curious.

-S'Cipio

The comment about protecting whats owed was me, im not defending gws methods in this case but ive been owed money via the court (in uk) and by the time it was chased up by balifs it was all moved to other places and i got nowt, so i have some simpathy for ANY person/company trying to ensure they get whats owed them. Yes its in appeal so it might not be needed but then it might.
Untill its all settled id say its the lawers (trying to) protect the judgement as it stands now.

S'Cipio wrote:
So if, hypothetically, Chapterhouse were to "win" their appeal and have all or nearly all of the rest go GW's infringement claims dismissed by the court, would they get their 25K back?

I know that won't help CH with the loss of money while their assets are frozen; I'm just curious.

-S'Cipio

This is why there are equity issues at play here. If a judgement that might get flipped on appeal could, in the mean time, cause significant harm to a defendant, there is potentially an interest in preventing that harm, because it could be harm that the defendant should never suffer in the first place, right? The court can weigh the potential for 'irreparable' harm to one party against the potential harm or prejudice to the opposing party.

Let's say that you sue me and get a fat judgement, and that I file an appeal. The judgement is so big that getting a bond for it would require me to default on my mortgage and lose my home. If I do that and win the appeal, I'll be homeless after the appeal, even though I was found to not be liable for that judgement in the first place. Thus a judgement I should never have needed to pay caused me to lose my home.

Now, my interests should be weighed against the interests of the opposing party, as the opposing party has a right to collect that judgement should I lose the appeal.

But we all know that GW doesn't give two gaks about 25K that Chapterhouse will probably never be able to pay, even if it loses the appeal and its assets are liquidated. GW said as much to the damn jury. GW spent orders of magnitude more on the litigation than it even asked the jury for. GW trying to 'protect' this judgement is BS. That's not why GW is doing this, and that's why it is upsetting to me. Again, just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should do it. Hopefully Judge Kennelly will put a boot up GW's ass and stay the judgement or something.

weeble1000 wrote:
Hopefully Judge Kennelly will put a boot up GW's ass and stay the judgement or something.

Small hope there since he's part of the reason the case was appealable.

I feel for Nick as he goes through all of this; I'm going to find an excuse to buy some of his merchandise if/when he gets back up and running.

 agnosto wrote:

weeble1000 wrote:
Hopefully Judge Kennelly will put a boot up GW's ass and stay the judgement or something.

Small hope there since he's part of the reason the case was appealable.

I feel for Nick as he goes through all of this; I'm going to find an excuse to buy some of his merchandise if/when he gets back up and running.

Yea, but don't forget that Kennelly denied both parties' motions for costs and denied all post-trial motions. Kennelly hates this case and harbors an abiding disregard for both parties. Remember that transcript when he joked about how he wasn't happy to see them back in his courtroom? These shenanigans by GW have put this case right back in front of him. It should be the Seventh Circuit's problem now, but despite that it is back in his courtroom clogging up his docket and once again demanding his attention. There's going to be an in-person hearing on this, because GW wants to seize Chapterhouse's assets prior to the appeal.

Chapterhouse Studios is an indigent defendant that doesn't have the money to get a damn appeal bond and GW is bothering the court trying to seize the company's meager assets on the justification that if it wins the appeal, those meager assets, which GW told the jury in front of the judge it wasn't interested in seizing, might no longer exist to be seized.

What is Kennelly going to do about it? Who knows. But them's the facts.

weeble1000 wrote:

What is Kennelly going to do about it?

Nothing? IF he didn't do anything when GW couldn't even prove that they had ownership of what they claimed that they owned and he also didn't do anything on the multiple times that GW's counsel was caught lying to his face, I highly doubt that he will do anything regarding what is at most a "frownable offence".

Is the Seventh Circuit able to retroactively punish GW and or Moleskin for any of that stuff?

Or Kennelly?

PhantomViper wrote:

weeble1000 wrote:

What is Kennelly going to do about it?

Nothing? IF he didn't do anything when GW couldn't even prove that they had ownership of what they claimed that they owned and he also didn't do anything on the multiple times that GW's counsel was caught lying to his face, I highly doubt that he will do anything regarding what is at most a "frownable offence".

Yeah, agreed with this likelihood. I just can't wait for the case to be heard by the appeals courts. Since this action by GW seems to indicate that settlement talks (if any were occurring) have broken down, maybe it will light a fire under CHS pro-bono counsel to get this appeals process underway and have things ruled on, one way or the other, by the appeals court. It certainly isn't good for CHS for it to drag out anymore, and I can't see them settling after this unless it was a very beneficial one to CHS (and I can't see GW swallowing that, either).

 RiTides wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

weeble1000 wrote:

What is Kennelly going to do about it?

Nothing? IF he didn't do anything when GW couldn't even prove that they had ownership of what they claimed that they owned and he also didn't do anything on the multiple times that GW's counsel was caught lying to his face, I highly doubt that he will do anything regarding what is at most a "frownable offence".

Yeah, agreed with this likelihood. I just can't wait for the case to be heard by the appeals courts. Since this action by GW seems to indicate that settlement talks (if any were occurring) have broken down, maybe it will light a fire under CHS pro-bono counsel to get this appeals process underway and have things ruled on, one way or the other, by the appeals court. It certainly isn't good for CHS for it to drag out anymore, and I can't see them settling after this unless it was a very beneficial one to CHS (and I can't see GW swallowing that, either).

Who says it's CHS dragging proceedings out? I was under the impression that was GW's doing.

That would fit with GWs tactics over the last 3 years, and CH really has no reason to want to drag it out.

 jonolikespie wrote:
That would fit with GWs tactics over the last 3 years, and CH really has no reason to want to drag it out.

Exactly. The longer this is dragged out, the longer CHS' s business is disrupted and the more money they lose, even with pro bono representation. It's like GW is trying to bleed them dry to force them to settle and drop the appeal.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:
That would fit with GWs tactics over the last 3 years, and CH really has no reason to want to drag it out.

Exactly. The longer this is dragged out, the longer CHS' s business is disrupted and the more money they lose, even with pro bono representation. It's like GW is trying to bleed them dry to force them to settle and drop the appeal.

They probably are.

Just a little observation:

Games Workshop's Citation Notice lists the amount of the judgment as $25,000, but lists the amount "remaining unsatisfied" as $23,803.

Edit: Forget the maths.

Are you saying you think that sanction amount has been deducted from what CHS owe GW? I thought that sanction would be paid to the court, not to CHS.

 RiTides wrote:
Are you saying you think that sanction amount has been deducted from what CHS owe GW? I thought that sanction would be paid to the court, not to CHS.

The sanction was to be paid to Chapterhouse Studios to reimburse the company for fees associated with expediting US Copyright Office files, specifically files that demonstrated that Mr. Moskin "deliberately or at least recklessly" withheld discoverable documents. It wasn't to be paid to the Court, nor to Chaprterhouse's counsel, but to Chapterhouse Studios.

Could the judge just be grumpy that Moskin hasn't paid and be expecting him and GW to sort it out after this is all said and done?